LOVESYMBOLNUMBER2 said:

benni said:

They said he was in a grave medical emergency before he took the damn pill. You can discount that to fit your theory, but that is not the information that has been given

It was Dr. K's attorney that said that. I have not seen that reported by anyone else or said by anyone else.

[/quot Well everything is just what people said. I would assume that dr k's attorney was speaking on his behalf, and they had discussed what would be said in advance. Or dr k's attorney made that up and dr k just went along with it?

I'm wondering if it was an exaggeration by the lawyer and Dr. K. "Prince was in a medical emergency and who do they call to come save him? But unfortunately, we arrived too late." :-/

If he had been in a grave medical emergency, then the treatment plan that Dr. K and Dr. S developed would not have been appropriate. The both of them were not acting like this was a grave medical emergency, and that is why I question whether it truly was. Neither of them would want to lose their license or risk malpractice, and if it were truly a grave medical emergency, then both of them would have been acting completely different from how they were.

[Edited 4/25/17 17:35pm]

benni said:

cloveringold85 said:

.

Your first paragraph: You are right.

.

Second paragraph: I agree and feel the same way you do. I also think that Prince had a dependency, not an "addiction". He was seeking relief from his pain. Not doing it to get high.

.

Third paragraph: I'm not so sure about his team who left him alone, because they obviously knew that things were not "right" and they were concerned enough to contact/set-up intervention with Dr. K.

.

Lastly, I suppose you are right -- they did not see Prince as having a life or death emergency, but yet they were concerned enough to call a doctor in CA.

.

Ultimately, it was the Fentanyl that took his life.

So, we need to make sure the police 1. find out who supplied Prince with the pills that contained the fentanyl and 2. find out who manufactured the damn pills. Ultimately, they are responsible for Prince's death and should be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law.

.

Agreed. If someone is responsible for giving him those tainted pills or any wrong doing, then justice needs to be served.

benni said:

cloveringold85 said:

.

You are right.

.

It's a very unfortunate situation and such a tragedy that could have all been avoided.

That's what breaks my heart, that it was such a tragic accident, one that might have been avoided. But I really want to know WHO gave him those pills.

.

I know. I will never forget that day I saw the breaking news that Prince died. I was like "No, this can't be happening".

.

When I initially heard about the emergency in Moline, I was concerned for him, but never did I expect this to happen. I thought he was okay, and then, BAM!! My heart was crushed in a million pieces.

.

We are all hurting and we all miss him.

benni said:

So you assume that the information given is inaccurate, but how could you or anyone know that, but if the information given was accurate then the doctors acted improperly. So your stance on dr'k is that the attorney he hired to speak for him on this matter did not tell the truth and did not discuss what he was going to say with his client. And you are also saying that dr k was fudging the details to bolster his position in some way. But as you said if he was in grave medical condition then the treatment plan was flawed, but do you not see the irony in that, you are saying the people that said he was in grave medical condition, should not have agreed to treat him if he was in grave medical condition. What...

oliviacamron said:

cloveringold85 said:

.

Regarding the neck and hand swabs; I don't know what to think about hat they would do that, without good reason.

When someone goes in cardiac arrest, I think foam starts coming out your mouth eventually.

.

Oh no! Do you think Prince had cardiac arrest? God, I hope not.

benni said:

LOVESYMBOLNUMBER2 said:

benni said:

It was Dr. K's attorney that said that. I have not seen that reported by anyone else or said by anyone else.

[/quot Well everything is just what people said. I would assume that dr k's attorney was speaking on his behalf, and they had discussed what would be said in advance. Or dr k's attorney made that up and dr k just went along with it?

I'm wondering if it was an exaggeration by the lawyer and Dr. K. "Prince was in a medical emergency and who do they call to come save him? But unfortunately, we arrived too late." :-/

If he had been in a grave medical emergency, then the treatment plan that Dr. K and Dr. S developed would not have been appropriate. The both of them were not acting like this was a grave medical emergency, and that is why I question whether it truly was. Neither of them would want to lose their license or risk malpractice, and if it were truly a grave medical emergency, then both of them would have been acting completely different from how they were.

[Edited 4/25/17 17:35pm]

.

This is all really crazy, isn't it? Who said what, when, where why & how?

LOVESYMBOLNUMBER2 said:

benni said:

I'm wondering if it was an exaggeration by the lawyer and Dr. K. "Prince was in a medical emergency and who do they call to come save him? But unfortunately, we arrived too late." :-/

If he had been in a grave medical emergency, then the treatment plan that Dr. K and Dr. S developed would not have been appropriate. The both of them were not acting like this was a grave medical emergency, and that is why I question whether it truly was. Neither of them would want to lose their license or risk malpractice, and if it were truly a grave medical emergency, then both of them would have been acting completely different from how they were.

[Edited 4/25/17 17:35pm]

So you assume that the information given is inaccurate, but how could you or anyone know that, but if the information given was accurate then the doctors acted improperly. So your stance on dr'k is that the attorney he hired to speak for him on this matter did not tell the truth and did not discuss what he was going to say with his client. And you are also saying that dr k was fudging the details to bolster his position in some way. But as you said if he was in grave medical condition then the treatment plan was flawed, but do you not see the irony in that, you are saying the people that said he was in grave medical condition, should not have agreed to treat him if he was in grave medical condition. What...

I never said that they should not have agreed to treat him.

IF Prince were in grave medical emergency, then the doctors and the staff would have been reacting in a completely different way.

Again, I do not think Prince was in a grave medical emergency. If Prince had died of a typical overdose of the medication he usually took, then I would say "yes" he was pretty bad off. But he did not. He died because the pills he took had fentanyl in them. It is THAT simple.

cloveringold85 said:

benni said:

I'm wondering if it was an exaggeration by the lawyer and Dr. K. "Prince was in a medical emergency and who do they call to come save him? But unfortunately, we arrived too late." :-/

If he had been in a grave medical emergency, then the treatment plan that Dr. K and Dr. S developed would not have been appropriate. The both of them were not acting like this was a grave medical emergency, and that is why I question whether it truly was. Neither of them would want to lose their license or risk malpractice, and if it were truly a grave medical emergency, then both of them would have been acting completely different from how they were.

[Edited 4/25/17 17:35pm]

.

This is all really crazy, isn't it? Who said what, when, where why & how?

Yes, it is, and unfortunately opens up too much speculation. The fact that we have only heard the words "grave medical emergency" from Dr. K's lawyer gives me pause.

benni said:

LOVESYMBOLNUMBER2 said:

benni said: So you assume that the information given is inaccurate, but how could you or anyone know that, but if the information given was accurate then the doctors acted improperly. So your stance on dr'k is that the attorney he hired to speak for him on this matter did not tell the truth and did not discuss what he was going to say with his client. And you are also saying that dr k was fudging the details to bolster his position in some way. But as you said if he was in grave medical condition then the treatment plan was flawed, but do you not see the irony in that, you are saying the people that said he was in grave medical condition, should not have agreed to treat him if he was in grave medical condition. What...

I never said that they should not have agreed to treat him.

IF Prince were in grave medical emergency, then the doctors and the staff would have been reacting in a completely different way.

Again, I do not think Prince was in a grave medical emergency. If Prince had died of a typical overdose of the medication he usually took, then I would say "yes" he was pretty bad off. But he did not. He died because the pills he took had fentanyl in them. It is THAT simple.

.

Oh boy! Benni and me got into a heated debate about this.......I'm gonna slowly step away, LOL

benni said:

cloveringold85 said:

.

This is all really crazy, isn't it? Who said what, when, where why & how?

Yes, it is, and unfortunately opens up too much speculation. The fact that we have only heard the words "grave medical emergency" from Dr. K's lawyer gives me pause.

.

I agree. Too many versions of the story makes it one giant f-up situation!

.

I feel like I've been beaten to a pulp with all this information today, so I'm out! Peace!

benni said:

O.k. You said the plan they developed would not be appropriate... The only thing we heard about his condition was it was grave, that's it. I understand that because the doctors were not acting like he was in grave condition makes you think that his condition was something else, that is your prerogative, and your opinion. So people who believe he was in grave condition and don't agree with the doctors care plan is understandable, and not uninformed or less than, it is an opinion just like yours

Behave now.

LOVESYMBOLNUMBER2 said:

Mumio said:

You know, some people here have a bad habit of disregarding other's who clearly know what they are talking about because they don't like what they are being told or they don't agree with it.

That said: Benni and I don't see eye to eye on certain things, however she is SPOT ON with what she is saying in regard to medical procedures, medical policies, HIPAA, and patient rights. It doesn't matter in the slightest that someone doesn't like what she is saying, she is speaking with authority on these matters because she knows that this is how it is in the medical world. So while you can disagree regarding an opinion, she is not giving opinions when she has expressed what the protocol is regarding the above. So please stop making yourselves look silly by continuing to argue about things that are pretty much set in stone throughout the healthcare industry. She is correct with what she is telling us here.

And finally this: for goodness sake, please stop with the bs that people should have forced Prince to take any action that he didn't want to take. You CAN NOT force anyone to accept medical assistance if they are of sound mind and not a danger to others. People's opinions on whether Prince was of sound mind doesn't matter in the slightest. Medical professionals do know how to assess patients in crisis and make the determination based on the criteria they have to follow. When I think how many of you seem to think P should have been forced into care, regardless of how well-intentioned your thoughts are, it really concerns me that people don't understand what boundaries are. It is not your right to make decisions for other's health care unless there is a health care proxy in place. So just stop with that line of thinking please, it's not opinion-based or up for vote. So many here are clearly caring people but damn, y'all go too far with this piece.

Benni, thank you for trying to clarify how it works.

[Edited 4/25/17 16:54pm]

Back at ya

cloveringold85 said:

benni said:

I never said that they should not have agreed to treat him.

IF Prince were in grave medical emergency, then the doctors and the staff would have been reacting in a completely different way.

Again, I do not think Prince was in a grave medical emergency. If Prince had died of a typical overdose of the medication he usually took, then I would say "yes" he was pretty bad off. But he did not. He died because the pills he took had fentanyl in them. It is THAT simple.

.

Oh boy! Benni and me got into a heated debate about this.......I'm gonna slowly step away, LOL

That was heated??? I was just calmly typing and didn't think anything was heated. It was just a discussion on my end. But it's all good. Everyone will think what they want to think. Personally, I just want them to release something more than just the search warrants so we can get a better picture and there isn't so much conjecture. Media wants to paint one picture, the Prince camp another, and the doctors still yet another. The truth is in there somewhere.

cloveringold85 said:

Yes because the poisoning, or overdose would cause cardiac arrest ,I think. I don't really want to look it up but I'm sure heart failure is one of the things that happen when you overdose then fluid backs up in the lungs then a froth starts coming out your mouth and sometimes nose

cloveringold85 said:

oliviacamron said:

cloveringold85 said: When someone goes in cardiac arrest, I think foam starts coming out your mouth eventually.

.

Oh no! Do you think Prince had cardiac arrest? God, I hope not.

[Edited 4/26/17 0:03am]

benni said:

Oh thank goodness I can finally post. I'm new here ( well, a former lurker but saw so many things I wanted to respond to I had to sign up lol).

I too think the only person framing this as a "grave medical emergency" was Dr. Kornfeld's attorney and this was a comment provided in the context of a press interview. A " grave medical emergency" to a lawyer may mean something entirely different than a medical professional stating the same thing. I say that as someone retired from law practice. I would view dealing with any sort of opiate withdrawal issue following an alleged overdose within a week prior as a grave medical issue.

I also agree with Benni on what's been said. Particularly with regards to dependency and also treatment/medication. discussions. I suffer from arthritis as well as chemo induced peripheral neuropathy and take some of the medications discussed herein among others for this pain as part of a medically monitored pain management program. His body was dependant on whatever he had been taking- doesn't mean there was addiction. It frankly means his pain management plan wasn't working for many reasons not the least of which perhaps was the lack of a consistent physician in recent years. ( at least according to what's been reported on drs). Phew. Sorry that was long.

cloveringold85 said:

oliviacamron said:

cloveringold85 said: When someone goes in cardiac arrest, I think foam starts coming out your mouth eventually.

.

Oh no! Do you think Prince had cardiac arrest? God, I hope not.

Isn't that how you generally die from a drug overdose? If the heart keeps beating you tend to carry on living.

PurpleDiamonds1 said:

MMJas said:

Yes he could. But that would also mean too much exposure. Remember, he was a loved community member. Word would get out. Unfortunately, I'm pretty certain Prince would have wanted his rehabilitation to remain as private as his addiction. An out of town doctor would allow for more privacy, perhaps.

But yet Prince went to Dr S and also walked himself into Walgreens to pick up a prescription. That does not seem like he was worried about being exposed. As stated by ISLIJAG earlier the Dr in Cali is an out patient Dr he was not going in anywhere...although that makes no sense as how is an outpatient Dr in Cali going to treat a Minnesota patient. That Dr should have referred him to a local outpatient Dr. Minnesota is more discrete than Cali and the reason Prince said he lived there

Dr. S was Kirk's doctor, so he knew how discr et (or not) he was. Prince was known to do a few things around the town without being bothered, so going into Walgreens probably didn't seem like much. Also, if Kirk was in there and getting Prince's prescriptions and the guys at the counter didn't give it to him because he was not Prince, Prince would have had to come in. His anxiousness at the time (stated by a few) and even that small exposure, might have also helped in the decidion to call an out of state doctor.

benni said:

cloveringold85 said:

.

Great! We both agree on one thing at least. Dr. K and Andrew should be held accountable for transporting controlled substances without a license across state lines! Thank You!

.

Well, it was Andrew who made the 911 call, so he has indemnity with regard to the pills in his backpack and what/who they were intended for.

.

Your last paragraph. I would agree with you, IF Prince's team and both doctor's hadn't already agreed to and move foward with their plans for an intervention/treatment for Prince. Their plan was already in action before Prince died. I feel all 3 of them are to blame because when you are offering treatment and you are dealing with a life and death situation, you act on it immediately -- not 24 Hours later.

.

We keep butting heads on that part.

.

[Edited 4/25/17 15:22pm]

Because I cannot agree that it was a life or death situation at that point. If Prince had died because he took regular pain medication, then I would be able to concede the point and say, "Yes, he obviously was in bad shape, and was clearly on his way to an overdose." However, Prince did not die from regular pain medication that he overdosed on. He died because the pills he took had fentanyl in them. I sincerely believe that if those pills had been his regular pain medication, what he had been taking all along, Prince would still be with us. I cannot get past the fact that he took pills that had fentanyl in them and would have died whether he was addicted or not by taking those pills.

And I have said earlier, I'm not convinced that Prince was addicted. Dependency, yes, perhaps, but addiction, no. And there is a difference between dependency and addiction.

Prince was seen out riding his bike, he was seen at that pharmacy, he held a party at Paisley Park. His people left him alone. If it were life or death, they would NOT have left him alone. They obviously were concerned by the incident in Moline on the plane, but they were not so concerned that they felt uncomfortable leaving him alone that night. And obviously the doctors were not so concerned that they felt he was in immediate danger, otherwise, they would have came up with a different treatment plan than the one they agreed on.

So I cannot agree that it was a life or death situation at that point in time. So the plan of action the doctors had decided upon was appropriate. It only became a life or death situation when Prince took pills that had fentanyl in them.

So it was a manageable dependency, or an opioid use disorder, that probably was going on for years. But perhaps at that stage (when Prince started looking frailer and thinner) the dependency had started to turn into an addiction? What if that weening off had started a while back and wasn't working?

"Addiction

In the substance abuse world, defining addiction is fairly clear. A person with an addictive temperament is generally using a drug or alcohol consistently to excess. This addictive behavior can be personally destructive to a person. Over time, addicts start to lose not only their jobs, homes, and money, but also friendships, family relationships, and contact with the normal world. Addicts have a desperate view of the world, in which the only priority is securing the next high.

Dependence

‘Dependence’ is a term used to describe a person’s physical and psychological loss of control due to substance abuse. If a person uses many drugs and develops a physical dependence on these drugs, that person is usually described as dependent. That alone isn’t always an addiction, but it can accompany addiction.

Sometimes, it’s hard to tell the difference. For instance, someone who is on a prescription for a pain medication may find that he needs increasing amounts of dosage for the medication to work. Some doctors may diagnose this as an increasing tolerance, or it might be disguised as the possible start of an addiction issue.

Physical dependence can occur without addiction; this is the common experience of most chronic pain patients who are able to take their opioid medication as prescribed for pain but don't develop the uncontrollable compulsion and loss of control. A desire to avoid withdrawal is not addiction.

Physical Dependence

In short, a physical dependence to opioids means that the body relies on a external source of opioids to prevent withdrawal. Physical dependence is predictable, easily managed with medication, and is ultimately resolved with a slow taper off of the opioid.

Normally, the body is able to produce enoughendogenous opioids (example: endorphins) to prevent withdrawal. But as tolerance increases, eventually the body's ability to maintain this equilibrium is exceeded and the body becomes dependent on that external source.

Physical dependence is sometimes simply called dependence, but this can lead to confusion because addiction is sometimes called dependence as well.

[Edited 4/26/17 2:39am]

[Edited 4/26/17 2:48am]

benni said:

And for those that may not understand the difference between addiction and dependency:

Addiction can occur without physical dependence; consider cocaine or methamphetamine both have little outwardly apparent withdrawal syndrome but addiction to either can devastate lives. Non-substance addictions such as gambling, sex or internet also have no physical dependence. What is common to all these addictions is the unnatural cravings that prompt the compulsive behaviors.

Physical dependence can occur without addiction; this is the common experience of most chronic pain patients who are able to take their opioid medication as prescribed for pain but don't develop the uncontrollable compulsion and loss of control. A desire to avoid withdrawal is not addiction.

Addiction and Dependence ...rien, M.D.

I've just posted something similar in response to your post and saw this just now. Thanks, Benni.

benni said:

LOVESYMBOLNUMBER2 said:

benni said:

It was Dr. K's attorney that said that. I have not seen that reported by anyone else or said by anyone else.

[/quot Well everything is just what people said. I would assume that dr k's attorney was speaking on his behalf, and they had discussed what would be said in advance. Or dr k's attorney made that up and dr k just went along with it?

I'm wondering if it was an exaggeration by the lawyer and Dr. K. "Prince was in a medical emergency and who do they call to come save him? But unfortunately, we arrived too late." :-/

If he had been in a grave medical emergency, then the treatment plan that Dr. K and Dr. S developed would not have been appropriate. The both of them were not acting like this was a grave medical emergency, and that is why I question whether it truly was. Neither of them would want to lose their license or risk malpractice, and if it were truly a grave medical emergency, then both of them would have been acting completely different from how they were.

[Edited 4/25/17 17:35pm]

Agree. Also, by stating that it was a medical emergency they are somewhat trying to justify Andrew turning up with so many drugs, I think.

sablepom said:

benni said:

Oh thank goodness I can finally post. I'm new here ( well, a former lurker but saw so many things I wanted to respond to I had to sign up lol). I too think the only person framing this as a "grave medical emergency" was Dr. Kornfeld's attorney and this was a comment provided in the context of a press interview. A " grave medical emergency" to a lawyer may mean something entirely different than a medical professional stating the same thing. I say that as someone retired from law practice. I would view dealing with any sort of opiate withdrawal issue following an alleged overdose within a week prior as a grave medical issue. I also agree with Benni on what's been said. Particularly with regards to dependency and also treatment/medication. discussions. I suffer from arthritis as well as chemo induced peripheral neuropathy and take some of the medications discussed herein among others for this pain as part of a medically monitored pain management program. His body was dependant on whatever he had been taking- doesn't mean there was addiction. It frankly means his pain management plan wasn't working for many reasons not the least of which perhaps was the lack of a consistent physician in recent years. ( at least according to what's been reported on drs). Phew. Sorry that was long.

Good points but I think he may have had a physcian and meds under an assumed name. I am sure by this time the police have pulled his medical records and know why he is was hospitilzed in 2014 and 2015. In addtion, to the 65k in medical expenses. If he was in the hospital he had a physician.

sablepom said:

Oh thank goodness I can finally post. I'm new here ( well, a former lurker but saw so many things I wanted to respond to I had to sign up lol). I too think the only person framing this as a "grave medical emergency" was Dr. Kornfeld's attorney and this was a comment provided in the context of a press interview. A " grave medical emergency" to a lawyer may mean something entirely different than a medical professional stating the same thing. I say that as someone retired from law practice. I would view dealing with any sort of opiate withdrawal issue following an alleged overdose within a week prior as a grave medical issue. I also agree with Benni on what's been said. Particularly with regards to dependency and also treatment/medication. discussions. I suffer from arthritis as well as chemo induced peripheral neuropathy and take some of the medications discussed herein among others for this pain as part of a medically monitored pain management program. His body was dependant on whatever he had been taking- doesn't mean there was addiction. It frankly means his pain management plan wasn't working for many reasons not the least of which perhaps was the lack of a consistent physician in recent years. ( at least according to what's been reported on drs). Phew. Sorry that was long.

Welcome to the Org. sablepom!

oliviacamron said:

PennyPurple said:

I don't think that Prince or anyone who obtained them for him, knew that they were cut with fentynl. I think they were just buying the real deal. I don't even know if Prince knew they were street drugs.

Or Russian assassination pills . How many entertainers have died of so called overdoses ?

Knowing how many America's are hooked on opoids, it's certainly possible. What a way to take out a chunk of our population "under the radar". You never know.

[Edited 4/26/17 9:44am]

sablepom said:

benni said:

Oh thank goodness I can finally post. I'm new here ( well, a former lurker but saw so many things I wanted to respond to I had to sign up lol). I too think the only person framing this as a "grave medical emergency" was Dr. Kornfeld's attorney and this was a comment provided in the context of a press interview. A " grave medical emergency" to a lawyer may mean something entirely different than a medical professional stating the same thing. I say that as someone retired from law practice. I would view dealing with any sort of opiate withdrawal issue following an alleged overdose within a week prior as a grave medical issue. I also agree with Benni on what's been said. Particularly with regards to dependency and also treatment/medication. discussions. I suffer from arthritis as well as chemo induced peripheral neuropathy and take some of the medications discussed herein among others for this pain as part of a medically monitored pain management program. His body was dependant on whatever he had been taking- doesn't mean there was addiction. It frankly means his pain management plan wasn't working for many reasons not the least of which perhaps was the lack of a consistent physician in recent years. ( at least according to what's been reported on drs). Phew. Sorry that was long.

Welcome to the org sablepom! And wow! What a first post!

Are you still taking chemo? A lot of the patients that I work with have peripheral neuropathy, and I know cold can really make that pain worse. Just wanted to say, if your neuropathy is in your legs or feet, one of my patients found that having a space heater directed at her feet and legs really helped her to cope with that pain. And I've had to take the pain pills off and on since I was 17 when I was first diagnosed with DVTs and PEs. At one point, I was dependent upon them and noticed that I was having to take more to get pain relief. It was when I realized that in which I began to wean myself off of them. I didn't like needing to take more and more to get pain relief. I still have to take them off and on, but only when the pain is impacting my ability to function daily. Otherwise I just grin and bear it and plow through the pain. That's why I feel that Prince didn't have an addiction but was dependent upon them. With an addiction, he would not have continued to produce in the way he was because it would have definitely impacted his work. With dependency, you still function and work, but need the pain medication to decrease the pain to enable you to keep working.

Also, I hadn't thought about the meaning of "grave medical emergency" being something different from the lawyer perspective. I just felt that it was really a way of protecting his client and any decisions he might of made in treating Prince. But you made a very valid point with that. Thank you.

[Edited 4/26/17 7:05am]

MMJas said:

benni said:

Because I cannot agree that it was a life or death situation at that point. If Prince had died because he took regular pain medication, then I would be able to concede the point and say, "Yes, he obviously was in bad shape, and was clearly on his way to an overdose." However, Prince did not die from regular pain medication that he overdosed on. He died because the pills he took had fentanyl in them. I sincerely believe that if those pills had been his regular pain medication, what he had been taking all along, Prince would still be with us. I cannot get past the fact that he took pills that had fentanyl in them and would have died whether he was addicted or not by taking those pills.

And I have said earlier, I'm not convinced that Prince was addicted. Dependency, yes, perhaps, but addiction, no. And there is a difference between dependency and addiction.

Prince was seen out riding his bike, he was seen at that pharmacy, he held a party at Paisley Park. His people left him alone. If it were life or death, they would NOT have left him alone. They obviously were concerned by the incident in Moline on the plane, but they were not so concerned that they felt uncomfortable leaving him alone that night. And obviously the doctors were not so concerned that they felt he was in immediate danger, otherwise, they would have came up with a different treatment plan than the one they agreed on.

So I cannot agree that it was a life or death situation at that point in time. So the plan of action the doctors had decided upon was appropriate. It only became a life or death situation when Prince took pills that had fentanyl in them.

So it was a manageable dependency, or an opioid use disorder, that probably was going on for years. But perhaps at that stage (when Prince started looking frailer and thinner) the dependency had started to turn into an addiction? What if that weening off had started a while back and wasn't working?

"Addiction

In the substance abuse world, defining addiction is fairly clear. A person with an addictive temperament is generally using a drug or alcohol consistently to excess. This addictive behavior can be personally destructive to a person. Over time, addicts start to lose not only their jobs, homes, and money, but also friendships, family relationships, and contact with the normal world. Addicts have a desperate view of the world, in which the only priority is securing the next high.

Dependence

‘Dependence’ is a term used to describe a person’s physical and psychological loss of control due to substance abuse. If a person uses many drugs and develops a physical dependence on these drugs, that person is usually described as dependent. That alone isn’t always an addiction, but it can accompany addiction.

Sometimes, it’s hard to tell the difference. For instance, someone who is on a prescription for a pain medication may find that he needs increasing amounts of dosage for the medication to work. Some doctors may diagnose this as an increasing tolerance, or it might be disguised as the possible start of an addiction issue.

Physical dependence can occur without addiction; this is the common experience of most chronic pain patients who are able to take their opioid medication as prescribed for pain but don't develop the uncontrollable compulsion and loss of control. A desire to avoid withdrawal is not addiction.

Physical Dependence

In short, a physical dependence to opioids means that the body relies on a external source of opioids to prevent withdrawal. Physical dependence is predictable, easily managed with medication, and is ultimately resolved with a slow taper off of the opioid.

Normally, the body is able to produce enoughendogenous opioids (example: endorphins) to prevent withdrawal. But as tolerance increases, eventually the body's ability to maintain this equilibrium is exceeded and the body becomes dependent on that external source.

Physical dependence is sometimes simply called dependence, but this can lead to confusion because addiction is sometimes called dependence as well.

Addiction is sometimes called opioid dependence, substance dependence, and most recently opioid use disorder, but still too often simply dependence, which leads to confusion."

[Edited 4/26/17 2:39am]

[Edited 4/26/17 2:48am]

No, I just think it was dependency, period. I don't think he was any where near an addiction. Prince continued to perform, record, work up until the very end. If he were addicted, people would have noticed. The fact that everyone says they never saw him take anything, they never suspected he was using any kind of drugs, tells me that he was not an addict. The only time we (as fans) even began to suspect something was wrong was with the plane event. Think back to all of the stars that were addicted to some substance, and you'll realize that it was always tellable. There were always signs in their behaviors and actions that pointed to that addiction. There were absolutely no signs that Prince was taking even pain medication. He never acted out any behaviors that one would associate with an addict. Everything points to dependence, yes, but again, he could have been taking the same amount for years and his body would depend on that same dosage to be able to continue to function (or it would require more). I think, that for whatever reason, he just got hold of some bad pills towards the end which brought it to everyone's notice and ultimately took his life. If he had not gotten those bad pills, he'd still be here with us.

benni said:

MMJas said:

So it was a manageable dependency, or an opioid use disorder, that probably was going on for years. But perhaps at that stage (when Prince started looking frailer and thinner) the dependency had started to turn into an addiction? What if that weening off had started a while back and wasn't working?

"Addiction

In the substance abuse world, defining addiction is fairly clear. A person with an addictive temperament is generally using a drug or alcohol consistently to excess. This addictive behavior can be personally destructive to a person. Over time, addicts start to lose not only their jobs, homes, and money, but also friendships, family relationships, and contact with the normal world. Addicts have a desperate view of the world, in which the only priority is securing the next high.

Dependence

‘Dependence’ is a term used to describe a person’s physical and psychological loss of control due to substance abuse. If a person uses many drugs and develops a physical dependence on these drugs, that person is usually described as dependent. That alone isn’t always an addiction, but it can accompany addiction.

Sometimes, it’s hard to tell the difference. For instance, someone who is on a prescription for a pain medication may find that he needs increasing amounts of dosage for the medication to work. Some doctors may diagnose this as an increasing tolerance, or it might be disguised as the possible start of an addiction issue.

Physical dependence can occur without addiction; this is the common experience of most chronic pain patients who are able to take their opioid medication as prescribed for pain but don't develop the uncontrollable compulsion and loss of control. A desire to avoid withdrawal is not addiction.

Physical Dependence

In short, a physical dependence to opioids means that the body relies on a external source of opioids to prevent withdrawal. Physical dependence is predictable, easily managed with medication, and is ultimately resolved with a slow taper off of the opioid.

Normally, the body is able to produce enoughendogenous opioids (example: endorphins) to prevent withdrawal. But as tolerance increases, eventually the body's ability to maintain this equilibrium is exceeded and the body becomes dependent on that external source.

Physical dependence is sometimes simply called dependence, but this can lead to confusion because addiction is sometimes called dependence as well.

Addiction is sometimes called opioid dependence, substance dependence, and most recently opioid use disorder, but still too often simply dependence, which leads to confusion."

[Edited 4/26/17 2:39am]

[Edited 4/26/17 2:48am]

No, I just think it was dependency, period. I don't think he was any where near an addiction. Prince continued to perform, record, work up until the very end. If he were addicted, people would have noticed. The fact that everyone says they never saw him take anything, they never suspected he was using any kind of drugs, tells me that he was not an addict. The only time we (as fans) even began to suspect something was wrong was with the plane event. Think back to all of the stars that were addicted to some substance, and you'll realize that it was always tellable. There were always signs in their behaviors and actions that pointed to that addiction. There were absolutely no signs that Prince was taking even pain medication. He never acted out any behaviors that one would associate with an addict. Everything points to dependence, yes, but again, he could have been taking the same amount for years and his body would depend on that same dosage to be able to continue to function (or it would require more). I think, that for whatever reason, he just got hold of some bad pills towards the end which brought it to everyone's notice and ultimately took his life. If he had not gotten those bad pills, he'd still be here with us.

I understand and agree.

cloveringold85 said:

oliviacamron said:

cloveringold85 said: When someone goes in cardiac arrest, I think foam starts coming out your mouth eventually.

.

Oh no! Do you think Prince had cardiac arrest? God, I hope not.

Prince did go through Cardiac arrest because his Heart stopped beating.

What is Sudden Cardiac Arrest?

On June 25, 2009, paramedics were called to the home of Michael Jackson responding to calls that he wasn't breathing. They found him in cardiac arrest and started CPR. He was transported to UCLA medical center were numerous attempts to restart his heart failed and he was pronounced dead.

Every day, calls come into the 911 emergency dispatch centers across the country with frantic voices crying for help. A person can't be wakened, breathing has stopped, and a pulse can't be felt. Cardiac arrest, the failure of the heart's electrical conducting system to generate a heart beat, marks the end of life. No matter what the cause, death happens when the heart stops beating.

The heart is an electrical pump. The mechanical pumping action that circulates blood requires an organized electrical system to get the heart muscle to squeeze. There are many reasons for the electrical activity to fail, and it's almost always due to irritable heart muscle cells that, in effect, cause a short circuit.

Sudden Cardiac Arrest Causes

Examples of some of the causes of sudden cardiac arrest include:

• The electrical irritability may be due to a heart attack (myocardial infarction), in which a blood vessel in the heart is blocked and prevents oxygen-rich blood from getting to heart cells. This can cause a fatal heart rhythm called ventricular fibrillation characterized by electrical activity that is so chaotic, that the heart just jiggles and does not beat effectively to pump blood.
  
  
• The same irritability may be caused by hyperkalemia, abnormally high potassium levels in the blood stream.
  
  
• Abnormal heart rhythms may be a complication of accidental poisoning or drug overdoses, in which the drug is directly toxic to the heart or else potentially blocks oxygen from getting into the blood stream.
  
  
• Carbon monoxide and cyanide attach tightly to red blood cells, preventing them from accessing oxygen. Not only does the smoke of a house fire contain carbon monoxide, but the chemicals in drapes, rugs, and furniture release cyanide.
  
  
• Drugs such as cocaine and methamphetamine act like adrenaline in the body and can put the heart's electrical system into a deadly overdrive.
  
  
• Downer drugs (depressant drugs that diminish the function of the central nervous system) such as narcotics [for example painmedication such as meperidine (Demerol)] and alcohol can depress brain function and it "forgets" to tell the body breathe, which is detrimental to the heart.
  
  
• Sudden cardiac arrest occurs in young athletes with previously undetected heart valve problems.
  
  
• It occurs in SIDS, sudden infant death syndrome.
  
  
• Sudden cardiac arrest can occur in people at the end of a long healthy life when they die quietly in their sleep.

benni said:

Agree... Prince showed no signs of being an addict and no one has come out saying he was or they knew this was going to happen to him, it came as a complete surprise.
P also did not have prescriptions for opiods but someone was doing/giving him something possibly unknown to him.
[Edited 4/26/17 9:50am]

TheEnglishGent said:[quote]

cloveringold85 said:

oliviacamron said:

cloveringold85 said: When someone goes in cardiac arrest, I think foam starts coming out your mouth eventually.

.

Oh no! Do you think Prince had cardiac arrest? God, I hope not.

Isn't that how you generally die from a drug overdose? If the heart keeps beating you tend trry on living.

[/qe]
I was trying to explain to clor loverer why they coroner maymay have swabbed his ne ck