I think it's great! One of his best unreleased tracks. There's a lot going on in this track. It's not straight forward. There's a sense of underlying danger. The arrangement is pretty odd, full of dark undertones. It's obsessive, bordeline mad, but beautiful at the same time. Kind of like a classic fairy tale.

I respect this woman but I don't agree with her taste. Saying "Tamborine" is a better song than 17 Days--that's kind of like WTF? I like Tamborine but I love 17 days. Impressive drumming on Tamborine though.

I like "Moonbean Levels" but I think she overrated it a bit. Grand Progression (its metaphor of love being like discovering the perfect chord progression) is a better song.

I like Adonis and Bathesheba. It is silly but its fun to listen to.

soladeo1 said:

Just heard the tune. Expected the worst given Susan Roger's thoughts in it. It was...I don't know... What do you guys think??

Susan's right: it's corny as hell. Doesn't mean I necessarily dislike it but it IS corny and cheesy and kitsch.

I find it to illustrate perfectly the relationship certain Prince fans have with his music.

If Prince had released it officially there would have been a shitstorm, with everyone screaming he's lost it, he's recording cheesy broadway songs for your grandma, that the process that lead to Emancipation, if not Purple & Gold, all began there.

But just because it's a long-sought, precious outtake, everybody's raving about it. There isn't a single song on any post-Emancipation record that's half as cheesy as A&B, and yet...

databank said:

databank said:

Susan's right: it's corny as hell. Doesn't mean I necessarily dislike it but it IS corny and cheesy and kitsch.

I find it to illustrate perfectly the relationship certain Prince fans have with his music.

If Prince had released it officially there would have been a shitstorm, with everyone screaming he's lost it, he's recording cheesy broadway songs for your grandma, that the process that lead to Emancipation, if not Purple & Gold, all began there.

But just because it's a long-sought, precious outtake, everybody's raving about it. There isn't a single song on any post-Emancipation record that's half as cheesy as A&B, and yet...

I can't believe were're hearing the same song.

soladeo1 said:

Just heard the tune. Expected the worst given Susan Roger's thoughts in it. It was...I don't know... What do you guys think??

Not being sure about a 'new' Prince song is nothing new. Even for old-school, die hards. That was always part of the game.

it's pretty much another reminder of prince's genius for me, given that
he could take so many kitch and cheese elements and yet create a song
with it that is much more than the sum of those schmalzy parts.

It is quite awful if you disregard the experimental nature of the track, or lack a full appreciation of the peculiarities and weirdness of P. At the same time, I believe it helped to lay the groundwork for some of his Crystal Ball-era production elements without which the masterpiece 'Adore' would never have come into being.

.

[Edited 2/15/17 15:40pm]

databank said:

Susan's right: it's corny as hell. Doesn't mean I necessarily dislike it but it IS corny and cheesy and kitsch.

I find it to illustrate perfectly the relationship certain Prince fans have with his music.

If Prince had released it officially there would have been a shitstorm, with everyone screaming he's lost it, he's recording cheesy broadway songs for your grandma, that the process that lead to Emancipation, if not Purple & Gold, all began there.

But just because it's a long-sought, precious outtake, everybody's raving about it. There isn't a single song on any post-Emancipation record that's half as cheesy as A&B, and yet...

'Courting Time'?..My Grandma might have known 'Clara Bow' from 'Condition of the Heart'. I'm struggling to see much difference to be honest. Had Prince done anything like 'Condition' before? No.

It's digging, expanding and exploring what you can do as an artist. That's why some things get left in the drawer or vault. Maybe to be re-worked in to 'Crucial' or 'Adore' eventually. I don't know, I'm speculating. Prince was an amazingly brave, daring artist, I'm sure we can agree there at least.

imprimis said:

It is quite awful if you disregard the experimental nature of the track. At the same time, I believe it helped to establish some of the production elements without which the masterpiece 'Adore' would never have come into being.

.

Why should you disregard the experimental nature of the track? It is experimental, and that is part of what makes the song great. A&B is pretty "out there" and I love it for that reason too. I think Susan Rogers ruined the reputation of this song. She said it was cheesy, so it must be cheesy. It isn't cheesy, it's weird and wonderful.

paulludvig said:

imprimis said:

It is quite awful if you disregard the experimental nature of the track. At the same time, I believe it helped to establish some of the production elements without which the masterpiece 'Adore' would never have come into being.

.

Why should you disregard the experimental nature of the track? It is experimental, and that is part of what makes the song great. A&B is pretty "out there" and I love it for that reason too. I think Susan Rogers ruined the reputation of this song. She said it was cheesy, so it must be cheesy. It isn't cheesy, it's weird and wonderful.

.

I'm not saying that one should disregard the experimental nature of the song, but if it were thrown on a record in 1986 or 1987 (the only way we would know of it unless liberated as an outtake on Crystal Ball '97-type project years later), it would not be well received by the overwhelming mass of general audiences who would buy a product from a star of Prince's magnitude at the time, one that connected only to 'Kiss' from the previous album, and still vaguely holding out for a return to Purple Rain-style material.

.

That it is a product of the growing pains of artistic growth would be lost on them.

.

There is no way he could sensibly release a track like this at the time, and it is only a minor artistic stepping stone anyhow.

.

Every song he recorded cannot rationally receive uniform praise, and I cannot believe his attitude was that every session of booked studio time would yield viable product at the end. No major artist would work with that attitude.

.

It's just that his unreleased material happens to more often be exceptional compared to other artists' outtakes, and the weirdness built into all his music makes it a more difficult call whether some unreleased material isn't more or as deserving as what does get released.

.

Importantly, 'Adore' would probably not exist without this particular experimentation.

.

[Edited 2/15/17 15:57pm]

paulludvig said:

imprimis said:

It is quite awful if you disregard the experimental nature of the track. At the same time, I believe it helped to establish some of the production elements without which the masterpiece 'Adore' would never have come into being.

.

Why should you disregard the experimental nature of the track? It is experimental, and that is part of what makes the song great. A&B is pretty "out there" and I love it for that reason too. I think Susan Rogers ruined the reputation of this song. She said it was cheesy, so it must be cheesy. It isn't cheesy, it's weird and wonderful.

Agreed. It's only her opinion. An ex-employee opinion at that.

imprimis said:

paulludvig said:

Why should you disregard the experimental nature of the track? It is experimental, and that is part of what makes the song great. A&B is pretty "out there" and I love it for that reason too. I think Susan Rogers ruined the reputation of this song. She said it was cheesy, so it must be cheesy. It isn't cheesy, it's weird and wonderful.

.

I'm not saying that one should disregard the experimental nature of the song, but if it were thrown on a record in 1986 or 1987 (the only way we would know of it unless liberated as an outtake on Crystal Ball '97-type project years later), it would not be well received by the overwhelming mass of general audiences who would buy a product from a star of Prince's magnitude at the time, one that connected only to 'Kiss' from the previous album, and still vaguely holding out for a return to Purple Rain-style material. That it is a product of the growing pains of artistic growth would be lost on them. There is no way he could release a track like this at the time, and it is only a minor artistic stepping stone anyhow. 'Adore' would probably not exist without this particular experimentation.

[Edited 2/15/17 15:46pm]

I agree that a song like this would not have been understood by general audiences in the 80's (or even now). I don't think it's just a minor stepping stone though, I think it's an artistic achievement in it's own right.

imprimis said:

paulludvig said:

Why should you disregard the experimental nature of the track? It is experimental, and that is part of what makes the song great. A&B is pretty "out there" and I love it for that reason too. I think Susan Rogers ruined the reputation of this song. She said it was cheesy, so it must be cheesy. It isn't cheesy, it's weird and wonderful.

.

I'm not saying that one should disregard the experimental nature of the song, but if it were thrown on a record in 1986 or 1987 (the only way we would know of it unless liberated as an outtake on Crystal Ball '97-type project years later), it would not be well received by the overwhelming mass of general audiences who would buy a product from a star of Prince's magnitude at the time, one that connected only to 'Kiss' from the previous album, and still vaguely holding out for a return to Purple Rain-style material. That it is a product of the growing pains of artistic growth would be lost on them. There is no way he could release a track like this at the time, and it is only a minor artistic stepping stone anyhow. 'Adore' would probably not exist without this particular experimentation.

[Edited 2/15/17 15:46pm]

The first song Prince put out that made me feel that way (on album or single) that I thought WTF is this was 'Girl'. Then i found out what was going on with the backward masking and realised I was wrong. Still embarrasing to play "Your ass is so tight" in the car with your Dad when you're 15. But hey.. Prince!

[Edited 2/15/17 15:56pm]

Marrk said:

imprimis said:

.

I'm not saying that one should disregard the experimental nature of the song, but if it were thrown on a record in 1986 or 1987 (the only way we would know of it unless liberated as an outtake on Crystal Ball '97-type project years later), it would not be well received by the overwhelming mass of general audiences who would buy a product from a star of Prince's magnitude at the time, one that connected only to 'Kiss' from the previous album, and still vaguely holding out for a return to Purple Rain-style material. That it is a product of the growing pains of artistic growth would be lost on them. There is no way he could release a track like this at the time, and it is only a minor artistic stepping stone anyhow. 'Adore' would probably not exist without this particular experimentation.

[Edited 2/15/17 15:46pm]

The first song Prince put out that made me feel that way (on album or single) that I thought WTF is this was 'Girl'. Then i found out what was going on with the backward masking and realised I was wrong. Still embarrasing to play "Your ass is so tight" in the car with your Dad when you're 15. But hey.. Prince!

[Edited 2/15/17 15:56pm]

Girl is a great song too!

Marrk said:

SomeSoldier said:

Marrk said:

The first song Prince put out that made me feel that way (on album or single) that I thought WTF is this was 'Girl'. Then i found out what was going on with the backward masking and realised I was wrong. Still embarrasing to play "Your ass is so tight" in the car with your Dad when you're 15. But hey.. Prince!

[Edited 2/15/17 15:56pm]

Try playing Orgasm then... I must have had the worst attack of fake, extremely loud coughing in history, trying to hide what what's going on in the speakers...

I'd be embarrassed listening to 'Orgasm' on my own with headphones on up Mount Everest!

soladeo1 said:

Just heard the tune. Expected the worst given Susan Roger's thoughts in it. It was...I don't know... What do you guys think??

There is no "good" or "bad"--only your own opinion. What do you think? You either like it or you don't.

I always like it when I hear a Prince song that sounds so different from all other Prince songs, and A & B is one of those for me. It's amazing he could do this so often with such a massive catalogue.

KingSausage said:

Susan was absolutely right about "Moonbeam Levels", which might just be the very best Prince song, IMO. Is she right about "Adonis and Bathsheba"? I think she is right to say that it is a bit cheesy, but I still really like it. The vocals and the guitar are sublime, and the melody is colorfully wistful.

Still, I'm hoping bonatoc chimes in, as I have seen some posts of his that are none too kind about the song.

Were Susan Rogers' words truly that harsh in the actual quote? I just remember it as being essentially 'not from his drawer of top material', slightly dismissive in being asked to remember and comment on a song that she may not have heard in decades among a barrage of other questions.

.

I don't believe there was any indication of spite over her being let go from the Prince camp in that interview, although she didn't seem as keen on being a go-to person for behind-the-scenes Prince trivia until more recent years (more concerned on answering just enough to plug Her Berklee College of Music professorship and independent career)

.

[Edited 2/15/17 18:20pm]

Yeah, the lyrics are cheesy, but musically..."Adonis and Bathsheba" is the BOMB

Susan and i are both non pleased.

I like this song and appreciate how different it is and shows yet again how diverse Prince was, so many unexpected things he's given us! But I definitely have to be in the mood for it. I feel like I'm up for SO many of Prince's songs at any given moment but this is more like a "sometimes song" , to borrow from Cookie Monster.

I think it's OK, I love the guitar.

[Edited 2/16/17 4:57am]