It is not sourced from BFTP. If I loaded the one from BFTP in Audacity and I see a lot of red bars which indicate clipping. So, for BFTP they cranked up the volume too much causing this. I don't know if there is any audible difference, other then that the BFTP is louder.

[Edited 11/27/16 18:31pm]

epronk said:

It is not sourced from BFTP. If I loaded the one from BFTP in Audacity and I see a lot of red bars which indicate clipping. So, for BFTP they cranked up the volume too much causing this. I don't know if there is any audible difference, other then that the BFTP is louder.

its obviously turned up... but i wonder what their copy sounded like be for they cranked up the sound

If this hasn't been sourced directly from BFTP2.0, then it may have been sourced from a closely related (but official), slightly higher-generation or higher-quality copy of what appears ultimately to be either a vintage (pre-1999) in-house test cassette or test pressing (that was always of marginal sound quality, and now partially degraded from age).

.

It's entirely possible that this very recording was already officially sanctioned by P as bonus material for a forthcoming release before April 21st, and that BFTP2.0 contributors/leakers had an inside connection as their source.

.

This may ultimately be the 'pristine' quality version P suggested might be made available to NPGMC subscribers in the early 2000's; even though it would have been a 'barely-lifting-a-finger' effort to release this from a readiy available and inexpensive secondary source, it would have been a substantial quality upgrade versus what was known (to the average fan) to be circulating at the time, so it may have been adequate to serve its stated duty in that regard.

.

But certainly the original multitrack exist somewhere out there to assemble a version of the song on par audiowise with the 1999 album material.

.

It's been mentioned here that this may be the way it was always meant to sound. Given that some of the oldest leaks of it having a longer beginning and ending, and important elements of this rather spartan production seem to be unreasonably muddle in the mix, that doesn't seem likely.

.

His recording/studio engineering are at a higher standard from 1985 onwards, which is why most of CB'97 could somewhat effortlessly be provided at a suitably high sound quality (since it has been mentioned on this forum that he did better in these regards on that release)

.

He probably wasn't interested in hunting down, baking, cleaning up, and creating a new mix/master for this forgotten and long neglected track, and he seemed in general quite resistant in revisiting anything in the 1982-early 1985 timeframe that hadn't already been part of the released canon.

.

I don't believe this track was ever important in P's world the way it was to many in the fan base. It is most likely unexceptional among a sea of semi-experimental 1982-era outtake material (most of which we haven't heard), that by mere fortuity was among some of the earliest widely traded tapes ~1988 onwards. That oddly 'danceable' Linn clap may make it seem more memorable, and more 'vintage-Princey' than it deserves (more of a shibboleth of production in general at the time).

.

A mix of it was obviously made at Sunset, but it was never mastered in 1982.

.

In terms of officially sanctioned obscurities (or references to them) from 1982-early 1985, we received in total, in all of these years, what, 'Cloreen Baconskin' on CB'97, some live performances of SAIMH from ~1999 onwards, some rehearsals of 'The Dance Electric' in the 3rd Eye era, a few verses thrown into the ADAN in Paris ~2009, a few verses of 'Purple Music' mixed in with a live performance of 'All the Critics', a newly recorded 'Extraloveable', and a teasing performance of 'Electric Intercourse' around the time the press discussed a 30th anniversary PR deluxe release

.

[Edited 11/27/16 22:27pm]

imprimis said:

If this hasn't been sourced directly from BFTP2.0, then it may have been sourced from a closely related (but official), slightly higher-generation or higher-quality copy of what appears ultimately to be either a vintage in-house test cassette or test pressing (that was always of marginal quality, and now partially degraded).

.

It's entirely possible that this was already officially sanctioned as bonus material for a forthcoming release before April 21st, and that BFTP2.0 contributors/leakers had such an inside connection as their source.

.

This may ultimately be the 'pristine' quality version P suggested might be made available to NPGMC subscribers in the early 2000's; even though it would have been a 'barely-lifting-a-finger' effort to release this from a readiy available and inexpensive secondary source, it would have been a substantial quality upgrade versus what was known (to the average fan) to be circulating at the time, so it may have been adequate to serve its stated duty in that regard.

.

But certainly the original multitrack exist somewhere out there to assemble a version of the song on par audiowise with the 1999 album material.

.

It's been mentioned here that this may be the way it was always meant to sound. Given that some of the oldest leaks of it having a longer beginning and ending, and important elements of this rather spartan production seem to be unreasonably muddle in the mix, that doesn't seem likely.

.

His recording/studio engineering are at a higher standard from 1985 onwards, which is why most of CB'97 could somewhat effortlessly be provided at a suitably high sound quality (since it has been mentioned on this forum that he did better in these regards on that release)

.

He probably wasn't interested in hunting down, baking, cleaning up, and creating a new mix/master for this forgotten and long neglected track, and he seemed in general quite resistant in revisiting anything in the 1982-early 1985 timeframe that hadn't already been part of the released canon.

.

I don't believe this track was ever important in P's world the way it was to many in the fan base. It is most likely unexceptional among a sea of semi-experimental 1982-era outtake material (most of which we haven't heard), that by mere fortuity was among some of the earliest widely traded tapes ~1988 onwards. That oddly 'danceable' Linn clap may make it seem more memorable, and more 'vintage-Princey' than it deserves (more of a shibboleth of production in general at the time).

.

A mix of it was obviously made at Sunset, but it was never mastered in 1982.

.

In terms of officially sanctioned obscurities (or references to them) from 1982-early 1985, we received in total, in all of these years, what, 'Cloreen Baconskin' on CB'97, some live performances of SAIMH from ~1999 onwards, some rehearsals of 'The Dance Electric' in the 3rd Eye era, a few verses thrown into the ADAN in Paris ~2009, a few verses of 'Purple Music' mixed in with a live performance of 'All the Critics', a newly recorded 'Extraloveable', and a teasing performance of 'Electric Intercourse' around the time the press discussed a 30th anniversary PR deluxe release

.

[Edited 11/27/16 22:25pm]

Er... why the hell did you move your reply ahead? U made me think for a moment that I'd lost my mind

It's going be many years before we receive any high-quality, truly obscure material. After PR Deluxe, any 80s-era bonus material or special releases are likely to originate from ~86-89. And I wouldn't be surprised that the Estate reaches out to former associates, bandmates and personnel for their own Memorex copies of demos and obscurities, rather than properly curating the Vault.

.

They seem incapable at this point, whether through incompetence or under the weight of larger economic/legal realities, of turning what to them must seem badly dated, slightly 'off' material of limited appeal into something commercially viable on a large label. I wouldn't expect much of anything, other than perhaps some smatterings of demos (of the recent 'Sister' sort) or readily obtainable versions of already well known outtakes, for 1984 and earlier.

.

That recent broadcast of allegedly devoted fans and supposed audiophiles listening to 'Moonbeam Levels' gives an honest indication of the bemused and tepid reception the casual Prince follower, let alone the average random listener/music buyer, is likely to give to this kind of stuff, and the Estate and their commercial backers are most likely aware and haven't worked out a strategy as yet.

.

Right now, the release schedule is likely to be like the 50 Quarters Program, a limited dropping here or there, mostly on a remastered release of a respective album, and maybe an imbalanced outtake-only collection spanning multiple eras like 'The Vault/OF4S', but without the smooth flow that one happened to have.

.

[Edited 11/27/16 22:55pm]

imprimis said:

.

I don't believe this track was ever important in P's world the way it was to many in the fan base. It is most likely unexceptional among a sea of semi-experimental 1982-era outtake material (most of which we haven't heard), that by mere fortuity was among some of the earliest widely traded tapes ~1988 onwards. That oddly 'danceable' Linn clap may make it seem more memorable, and more 'vintage-Princey' than it deserves (more of a shibboleth of production in general at the time).

.

HEY SHUT UP IT'S GREAT

That bit where he goes "it's never too late" is giving me chills, unexceptional or not



(you're probably right though)

jaawwnn said:

HEY SHUT UP IT'S GREAT

That bit where he goes "it's never too late" is giving me chills, unexceptional or not

(you're probably right though)

.

That's also my favorite part of the song.

[Edited 11/27/16 22:46pm]

KingSausage said:

If ML was simply recorded like this and this is just what it sounds like...well, shit. On the bright side, this might apply to other unreleased tracks, which would mean my massive bootleg collection is as good as it will ever get. That's cool.

.

It most assuredly wasn't tracked like this. This type of reasoning has been used on this forum to explain the 'hot' recording on 'Little Red Corvette'-- but the 12" single, and even 'Rosario 1999', demonstrate that the underlying tracks are, or could be made to sound if desired, much cleaner and clearer.

.

If it's true that the distortion on LRC is a deliberate artistic feature of the album version, the same cannot necessarily be said of ML, as I don't believe ML ever reached the point of serious consideration in 1982 for a final mix to have been worked out.

.

And 'Moonbeam Levels' is said to have been recorded at Sunset Sound, which should enjoy the benefit of 24 tracks, Peggy McCreary engineering, etc., rather than the mostly self-engineered, rough-around-the-edges Kiowa Trail home studio beginnings of LRC.

.

I do believe, however, that the 'quick and dirty' mix of 'Moonbeam Levels' made in 1982 is probably about as good sonically as most of what appears on the 1999 album. Our only, to date, adequate example we have of it on BFTP2.0 and 4ever, is a merely faded hint of it, as it is degraded due to coming from an aged, secondary source.

.

[Edited 11/28/16 1:25am]

Must admit to being surprised that people here are surprised that 'Moonbeam Levels' is anything other than the track we've heard. It being Susan Rogers fave track, it being, according to her, added and then withdrawn for more than one release by Prince etc etc.
Also surprised that more than a few people seem to think that Warner had/has access to The Vault!

After Susan created The Vault, getting hold of whatever masters she could left behind at studios (as had been a regular practice by record companies and even artists who notionally own them), its importance to Prince was 'on the board' and would rise and rise as he encountered the bt where Mo Ostin spoke of owning 'The Gold Experience' when it and its content were only at the title/ideas stage (nothing recorded).

The absolute battle from that day to this was to keep from ownership by record companies whatever was put in that vault. Some of the masters in it were already owned by WB when Susan fetched them and put them in the vault. From some of these, came 'Moonbeam Levels'. I'd reckon that the inclusion on 4EVER is not so much miserly as the sum total of 'unreleased' currently entitled to Warner.

callimnate said:

digital will never sound better than vinyl.

.

Oh man, don't make me start...!
Such an utterly ignorant general statement...

KaresB said:

callimnate said:

digital will never sound better than vinyl.

.

Oh man, don't make me start...!
Such an utterly ignorant general statement...

My 5.1 HD Blu-Ray Audio discs disagree as well!

databank said:

I wonered the same and i may have even mentioned it. I will admit a few days before it came out someone sent it to me... i was very greatful but I was thinking "this is just a bootleg" but then it came out and... it sounds the same as the best bootleg i have.

I have said and i have read other say that maybe the vault is pretty much all or mostly out there. Prince said in the last few years that most bootlegs are not even finished... one has to wonder.

My theory is this.

Like Adonis & Bathsheiba and a couple of other tracks, Prince sent the version of Moonbeam Levels to a couple of fans, which was intended as part of the proposed compilation he was working on at the time. The timeline kind of adds up when you take into account when the good quality track leaked and when the new Warners deal was made.

So no, I don't think it was sourced from the bootleg. I think the bootleg was sourced from what was being worked on at the time.

If you sync up the BFTP file and the 4ever one, they play exactly the same. At no point do they fall out of sync - which is a clear indicator that they come from the same source AND same transfer. The only difference is slight EQ changes and the the BFTP file has a slightly longer fade out.

databank said:

I saw that coming and still, I find it incredible. Could we be wrong?

I for one does not qualify as an audiophile but by comparison to, say Crystal Ball or other vault material, ML ddefinitely sounds like the BFTP version to me.

In any case I think WB needs to address this, either deny or justify it.

I felt it deserved a thread of its own, for the audiophiles to compare their studies of its sound quality and to discuss how the hell this could have happened if it did, indeed, happen.

Thx to those of u who have the material, technical knowledge and patience to study this case

.

I'm not saying it's bootleg sourced (there's no way to tell that for sure unless someone deliberately marked the waveform for BFTP and that tag can be found in the waveform of 4E too), but I am quite confident in that it's not sourced from the 1st generation master.

It is true that Prince's recordings have often had technical imperfections (he simply focused on inspiration more than chasing technical perfection and I can wholeheartedly agree with that approach), and yes, the '1999' album is far from being the best recording you'll ever hear.

BUT:

The technical imperfections I hear on ML are of different nature to the ones present on '1999'. On ML it's not analog distortion that's bothering my ears, but the kind of symptoms you hear in mp3s, for example: results of bad file encoding, possibly even results of audio file compression, though I don't think it's compressed. (So before someone would take this the wrong way: I am NOT saying it's mp3-sourced!) What I can imagine though is that they might have used a 16bit transfer of a 2nd generation analog copy as a source, which probably lacked some high end, so someone has tried to compensate for that and it resulted in the muddy highs I hear on the track.

As said before in another topic, this whole 4Ever release has many different faults; it has clearly been put together very carelessly and unprofessionally in many different regards, but the techical imperfections we hear on Moonbeam Levels are different to the other issues.

Eh, I just listened to the two versions discussed here several times back-to-back, but I can't arrive at any type of definitive conclusions. However, I wouldn't exclude the possibility that the official release has been created from a bootlegged source.

The officially released version and BFTP version sound remarkably similar and both have sound quality issues that I don't think are present on the 1999 album. Both versions sound somewhat "cleaned up" with modern digital processing, with "good enough" but somewhat unnatural results.

The way the snare sits in the mix in both versions discussed here bothers me. The stereo image sounds like it has been enhanced later on and it's not reminiscent of what the 1999 album sounds like in that regard. The synth-y splash / crash sounds sizzle in a way that suggest more drastic digital enhancements have been applied to the officially released version than what is the case with the BFTP version. I probably prefer the BFTP version due to such factors. It has a tighter stereo image that is more faithful to the vibe of the Prince records from the time.

The BFTP version being "brickwalled" with "flat peaks" and the officially released version being quieter doesn't prove anything. The overall volume level on the officially released version could have been brought down to match the other material on the compilation. Adding EQ, compression and stereo imagining will re-introduce some variation to the dynamics. I also noticed that on the intro of the official version there's a flanging / phasing type of a sound present on the hiss following the kicks, which suggests the track has simply gone through postprocessing and not having higher detail.

I honestly don't think WB has access to the recordings in the vault currently. They may own the copyright to Moonbeam Levels in any case, which would make it okay for them to put out just about any version they can get in their hands.

So, I can't claim to be able to state anything definitive myself, but I think the doubts people have expressed are justified.

[Edited 11/28/16 5:09am]

kepurplehunter said:

I likely all What Prince Put Out This Man Worked His Ass Off To Be What HE Loved n Choose To Do He Pushed It Till The Roof n Walls Caved In So U All Better Give His Effing Props On All He Put Out Alive n Dead!!!! [Edited 11/27/16 9:53am]

BAM !

bluegangsta said:

So no, I don't think it was sourced from the bootleg. I think the bootleg was sourced from what was being worked on at the time.

.

Yes, I endorse this view. This is essentially what I was trying to get at, in my earlier post.

novabrkr said:

The officially released version and BFTP version sound remarkably similar and both have sound quality issues that I don't think are present on the 1999 album. Both versions sound somewhat "cleaned up" with modern digital processing, with "good enough" but somewhat unnatural results.

.

Playback speed seems slightly variable, as with a rather poor vinyl transfer, or the effects of multigenerational tape copying on consumer-grade equipment. This exacerbates the blunted melody of the actual song itself.

.

[Edited 11/28/16 6:12am]

couldnt "they" be sued if it was bootleg sourced????

luvsexy4all said:

couldnt "they" be sued if it was bootleg sourced????

.

It's most likely not bootleg sourced, but rather the bootleg was sourced from a leak of the same recording that was officially dredged up for use as bonus material on a future project around the time the WB deal was inked in 2014.

.

In either case, it appears WB has the rights to any version of this particular track.

.

[Edited 11/28/16 6:27am]

The stereo spread and tone sounded exactly like other 1999 era material to me (but I only got to listen to it once and then am travelling), and is beyond any bootleg version I heard. It sounds very good on a high quality system. Some 1999 era stuff had his vocals processed with limited midrange EQ and tone, and they were oftern pushed too hot, so they buzzed.

ufoclub said:

The stereo spread and tone sounded exactly like other 1999 era material to me (but I only got to listen to it once and then am travelling), and is beyond any bootleg version I heard. It sounds very good on a high quality system. Some 1999 era stuff had his vocals processed with limited midrange EQ and tone, and they were oftern pushed too hot, so they buzzed.

.

This may be more or less true, but under close scrutiny this clearly isn't sourced directly from a master.

.

Regardless of the details, the bottom line seems to be that the quality of this finally official track is not up to the expectations of those of us that have collected bootlegs and are eager to purchase high quality official versions of vault material. Without an official statement verifying lineage, speculation and disappointment will be rampant. WB and/or the estate need to address the issue going forward and be as transparent as possible to avoid backlash and build up good will with the fans that they will be depending on in order to maximize profit potential for vault recordings. Just sayin'...

[Edited 11/28/16 6:45am]

luvsexy4all said:

couldnt "they" be sued if it was bootleg sourced????

What the hell would make you think that?

luvsexy4all said:

couldnt "they" be sued if it was bootleg sourced????

I guess it could be tried out, but it's the same sound recording in the end. If they have the rights to it, it probably doesn't matter how they've obtained it.

If my car got stolen and I'd get it back from the person that stole it, it'd still be my car regardless of any scratches or other forms of damage done to it.

[Edited 11/28/16 6:56am]

Or the source leak for the boot is the same person as the one involved now

Anyway the is a significant change... the song is legal available now

[Edited 11/28/16 7:06am]

but if it's all about the way his recordings sounded in 1982, why is a track like "cloreen",
which seemed to be just goofing around in the studio, such great quality?

you'd think that some one take, joking around, having fun in the studio track would be
lesser quality compared to a song that is actually at least partially mixed?

something is fishy here.

it sounds nuts, i know, and i might be completely wrong, but to me, too many things
about this whole package don't add up.

so prince sanctioned this release and picked the cover.

the cover being a picture from a session that prince himself asked be taken down from
the org when posted, because he didn't like the pictures. -did that ever happen apart
from him being miffed at the photoshop threads?

songs with cursing are included. also weird. given what we've read about particularly
"head" in the last year or so.

moonbeam levels is included, ok, but in questionable quality. also, warners says it was
recorded in 1982 and considered for the original Rave album. that's true. but what is
that information to any casual listener? just saying it's a left over from the 1999 album
sessions is more to the point and would make a casual listener more eager to hear it
than saying it's from an album called Rave -which is an actual released album in his
catalogue, so more confusion ensues.

why would you mention that at all, unless you actually had that Rave album and were
planning on releasing it down the line. which i seriously doubt.

and what does warners at this stage know about Rave 88 at all? or do they have a lot
more stuff than what we know? did prince already send them more remastered albums
from his warner years, along with outtakes and information?

although, in today's environment, i seriously doubt that prince would let more than 1
album's worth of remastered/vault material go out to any company, at one time. why
would he send them all the remasters plus a disc of outtakes for each, at this point in
time already? only thing that could happen with that is it would leak, or it would get
caught up in red tape etc etc. deal going sour yadayada. so probably not.

seems unlikely warners had access to the vault to get 'moonbeam levels' out of there
when the estate is still in the process of catalogueing everything in there and aren't
going to go to extra lengths to provide warners with a single outtake, when there are
perhaps several versions in the vault, some in way better quality etc etc.

to me, this entire release comes off as something that started with warners, when they
started working with prince again in 2014. they wanted another hits package, and he
said ok. probably even signed a deal with them for the pr remaster, his new albums at
the time and a hits package.

but i'm not sure that anything beyond that point was ever set in stone and certainly
not with prince's stamp of approval.

the song choice for one, and also 'tmbgitw' not being included. it was a joint release
by warners and prince and the most likely song to attract attention again from people
who might already have one of the previous hits packages. yet the song is missing,
much in the way that wb couldn't rerelease the gold experience without prince's say.

so if prince was ok with this release 'as is', details like that would have been worked
out.

also, there would have been more than 1 new songs, trust and believe and with
remastered deluxe versions on the horizon, this song would be much better placed
on the 1999 package. both casual and hardcore fans would be serviced well enough
with a lesser known outtake on the hits set. something that was never part of the
album sessions for any legendary release. just something cool that we hadn't heard
before.

prince didn't care about this compilation. he didn't care about any of them so what
would make him change his mind about them for this one? he probably just went
with it because it would sweeten the new deal for warners and he'd just let that new
hits compilation be released without much notice or fanfare in between his dozen or
so new projects

if prince hadn't died, this thing wouldn't be released now, and perhaps not for some
years to come. warners just had this option in their deal. what would have been the
point of this package if prince were still alive? his albums sold marginally and there
are already 3 hits packages on warners that all pretty much offer the same songs.

still leaves you to wonder how and where and when they got 'moonbeam levels'.

could it be part of the PR Deluxe? we all know prince might have just as well put it
on the bonus disc (if there even was such a thing that prince compiled since there
have been reports that he just offered the remastered album as such without any
bonus content, yet now warners says it will have a whole disc of unreleased stuff?)

anywho. if he'd put it on that second disc since timewise he might have not even
considered it 100% part of either 1999 or PR and just put it with this set of songs?

unlikely, put still possible, perhaps. so we'll see in the next 6 months or so.

well, this is just me rambling, per usual, and i don't claim that anything i wrote is
fact or even close to it. it's just me trying to put it all together and see if any of it
makes sense.

things is, there are way too many questions right now and no one is answering any
of them or adressing even simple, logical reasoning.

we shall see what details unfold with the PR re-release and if warners then goes
into more detail about a remastered albums project and if so, how much of it is
in the can, at what stages the plans were etc etc. because right now they aren't
giving us anything to go on yet.

it is a demo, not a bootleg, I think......so unfinished