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Did you miss what I wrote about him being a large shareholder? How do you think people become wealthy? They buy into business that already exsist. | |
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. I agree! I'm a real stickler when it comes to people's character. A person's actions speak the TRUTH. I agree that Prince was taken advantage of. When he gave that interview (I forget with who), he got the figures wrong on how many people subscribe to Spotify vs. Tidal. Maybe he was just being vague and was just picking a number, I dunno. I think Prince was a very emotional guy, and he probably felt he could trust JayZ at the time. Well, we will just have to sit back and see how this all plays out.
"With love, honor, and respect for every living thing in the universe, separation ceases, and we all become one being, singing one song." - Prince Roger Nelson (1958-2016) | |
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Character is indeed everything. Prince talked highly of Jay Z because he trusted him and believed in him (although he was misled by Jay Z). He probably lied to Prince and told him that he owned TIDAL although he doesnt. Jay Z is a clown. I feel its natural for any fan to become emotional if they feel someone they admire has been used or taken advantage of.
. I understand that Prince was a big supporter in helping out new businesses, and new artists, etc. But the fact that Tidal has not brought forth supporting documents just makes them look bad and dishonest, imo. . It's ironic that JayZ wrote that song with those lyrics "we got his masters safe and sound", and then Prince died. . JayZ is a former drug dealer and I'm sure he associates with a lot of shady people and conducts shady business deals. What I find really odd is that Prince was so against drugs, yet he was making business deals with JayZ? . By the way, I haven't seen JayZ or heard him speak out about Prince's death or have any type of tributes, unless I missed them?
"With love, honor, and respect for every living thing in the universe, separation ceases, and we all become one being, singing one song." - Prince Roger Nelson (1958-2016) | |
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I don't think anyone took advantage of Prince. He taking those drugs I believe he knew the risk. | |
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. I have nothing against hip-hop. I actually enjoy hip-hop music. I just don't like JayZ. I don't care for his music at all, and his music is not something that Prince would ever make or produce. Actually Prince looked down on a lot of rap music because there is not much creativity to rap music with regards to playing instruments. I mean, Prince could play over 20 instruments. Rap music does not involve much creativity......now, some rap is great, and some not so great. Sorry, not trying to get off-topic here.
"With love, honor, and respect for every living thing in the universe, separation ceases, and we all become one being, singing one song." - Prince Roger Nelson (1958-2016) | |
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Why is the music still up on Tidal? You can go to YOUTUBE and have material taken down immediatly for copyright infringement. There has to be an agreement for that material to still be up on that site. Tidal does not have to give info to Breamer they will have to give paperwork in Federal court so we shall see soon but more is going on in this case them we know. | |
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. Laura: Yes, I saw what you posted about JayZ being a large shareholder. I'm trying to catch up with all the comments from yesterday! LOL .
"With love, honor, and respect for every living thing in the universe, separation ceases, and we all become one being, singing one song." - Prince Roger Nelson (1958-2016) | |
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. Well, the fact that Tidal still has Prince's music available leads us to believe that it's legit, or like you said, the Judge is allowing the music to be up for a said period of time. . Here is the way I look at it; if someone claims they have rights to something -- whatever it may be, just show PROOF and put it all to bed already! If they have nothing to hide, then what is the big deal -- what is the delay? . Like you said, there has to be more going on here than we know. . If Tidal has rights, then fine. I have no problem with that. But, if they are streaming music that they aren't supposed to be, then it should be taken down. The rules are the rules and should apply to everyone, not just a select few. Just saying.
"With love, honor, and respect for every living thing in the universe, separation ceases, and we all become one being, singing one song." - Prince Roger Nelson (1958-2016) | |
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cloveringold85 said:
. Well, the fact that Tidal still has Prince's music available leads us to believe that it's legit, or like you said, the Judge is allowing the music to be up for a said period of time. . Here is the way I look at it; if someone claims they have rights to something -- whatever it may be, just show PROOF and put it all to bed already! If they have nothing to hide, then what is the big deal -- what is the delay? . Like you said, there has to be more going on here than we know. . If Tidal has rights, then fine. I have no problem with that. But, if they are streaming music that they aren't supposed to be, then it should be taken down. The rules are the rules and should apply to everyone, not just a select few. Just saying.
Well some of it has been taken down but the bulk of it is up. Tidal maybe holding on to docs because the info is proprietary info and they do not want the financial aspects to be revealed to Breamer since Breamer is supposed to be montizing the estate. They did not have to give Breamer anything and I would hope Breamer was able to get some information from Phedra. [Edited 12/20/16 14:14pm] | |
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. Yes, Tidal is probably waiting until the new administrator takes over in January, I'm guessing. . I would think that Tidal will have to eventually submit documents to support their claims. Sooner or later, the Cat will be out of the bag!!
"With love, honor, and respect for every living thing in the universe, separation ceases, and we all become one being, singing one song." - Prince Roger Nelson (1958-2016) | |
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My  . Tidal/ Aspire had Warner's Bros logo at the bottom of their webpage. Beyonce wore a dress with Satan on it. If there is an Illuminati, she is in it or she's trying to make you think she is. . Kanye already told us Jz is murderer. Oh yeah, and Beyonce Day declared in Minnesota right after Prince died? I don't care if Tidal paid Prince or not. He died, everything belongs to the heirs. I think Prince would side with his sister. Prince partially raised her. There has to be some bond between them.[Edited 12/20/16 15:30pm] I asked Prince what he was planning to do. He told me , I'm going to look for the ladder. I asked him what that meant. All he said was, sometimes it snows in April. - book D.M.S.R. | |
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. Oh boy! You might get some retaliation for mentioning the "Illuminati" here! . Well, Beyonce got hooked-up with JayZ and went to the dark side. She married a former drug addict, so what does that say? . Kanye said: "JayZ, I know you got killers." Then, he was locked up in the psychiatric ward. . I agree; whatever Prince had left in his estate, should go to his siblings. But, what about his music? I don't think it should be exclusive to Tidal, but it seems this was Prince's wish? I don't want to support Tidal, knowing how they operate and who they associate with. . In time, the truth shall be known. We hope!! .
[Edited 12/20/16 16:17pm] "With love, honor, and respect for every living thing in the universe, separation ceases, and we all become one being, singing one song." - Prince Roger Nelson (1958-2016) | |
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Speaking strictly FOR MYSELF
I will support Princes Music on whatever Platform it appears on...
I really dont care..I want it OUT THERE
I want it heard
I want his message of LOVE and PEACE to be Digested and understood by the WHOLE WORLD
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ON December 8 VAN JONES has was Petitioned BY TYKA to be appointed as personal Representative of Princes Estate...
Good NEWS...
VAn loved admired repected and I believe UNDERSTOOD Prince...
Good Job TYka...
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jubilant judaZ [Edited 12/20/16 20:10pm] | |
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TIDAL Teams With Prince To Live Stream Audio From "Rally 4 Peace" Baltimore Benefit Concert TIDAL Teams With Prince To Live Stream Audio From "Rally 4 Peace" Baltimore Benefit Concert COMMITS TO MATCHING CHARITABLE DONATIONS FROM FANS AND SUPPORTERS. http://www.prnewswire.com..._cleartime . NEW YORK, May 8, 2015 /PRNewswire/ -- Today TIDAL announced, on Sunday, May 10, 2015, it will live stream audio from Prince & 3RDEYEGIRL's Mother's Day Rally 4 Peace benefit concert, pre-pay wall, during its TIDAL X: Baltimore event. TIDAL will be the exclusive destination to hear this historic live concert. Following a month of unrest, the Rally 4 Peace is meant to be a catalyst for pause and reflection following the outpouring of violence that has gripped Baltimore and areas throughout the US. Details surfaced last week about a protest song titled "Baltimore" Prince recently recorded in response to the civil unrest. The song was written following the death of 25-year old Freddie Gray and is a tribute to all of the people of Baltimore. . The live stream will provide an opportunity for all people globally to experience the music and participate in a cultural moment that can inspire, motivate and provoke changes in our current climate. TIDAL's work to build a creative artist space made it appealing to the global superstar who has always supported a visionary approach. . "TIDAL has the ability to create experiences that bring people together," said Vania Schlogel, Senior Executive for TIDAL. "We are privileged to partner with Prince so that people everywhere can share in this moment for healing and unity to support Baltimore youth through the power of music. Our dream is to be able to provide a limitless platform for all artists." . "I am honored to join Prince in his mission to inspire through the uniting power of music and be able to offer a platform where this moment can be shared globally. We invite all to experience the music and contribute in their own way to promote peace, tolerance and understanding," added JAY Z. "Our prayers go out to Freddie Gray's family and every family affected by brutality and senseless violence." . Fans and supporters can listen to TIDAL X: Baltimore by going to www.TIDAL.com. Alongside the free 60min audio stream, TIDAL's homepage will feature a "match funds" donation button to support local Baltimore youth charities. TIDAL is also providing the opportunity to support and donate to The Baltimore Justice Fund, whose mission it is to end racial discrimination, create schools that are welcoming and safe, reduce the impact of drug addiction and eliminate police brutality in Baltimore. .
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from: http://prince.org/msg/7/418674
TIDAL's BIG Money Offer 2 PRINCE A couple months ago I speculated a deal with TIDAL, when some mebers were saying that's not true, his music still streams on other streaming platforms... Well it was just confirmed by Josh Welton in a recent interview that not only did Prince make a specific deal with TIDAL to release old material from vaults, videos, songs, etc... But it was because Prince made a deal with TIDAL based on a financial agreement, paying what "Prince deserves" for his album HitnRun.
It will be interesting to see how he juggles his future venture with TIDAL as well as his recently signed deal again with WB.
My speculation is Phase 2 will be released via TIDAL and the new 3EG album and possibly a new Prince Free Urself album will be released by WB and maybe in the future the still anticipated Purple Rain Reissue...
Article:
http://www.contactmusic.com/prince/news/tidal-s-big-money-offer-to-prince_4908126
Prince's producer Joshua Welton says the singer decided to release his new album 'HITNRUN' on TIDAL because they offered to pay him what he ''felt it was worth''. 
Prince decided to release 'HITNRUN' on TIDAL because they offered to pay him what he ''felt it was worth''. The 57-year-old musician opted to share his latest album exclusively on Jay Z's streaming service and producer Joshua Welton admitted money played a big part, along with the respect Jay Z showed for Prince's music. He said: ''We believe in high quality music, we believe in artists coming together, we believe in artist ownership, we believe in people and we believe in community. The fact that TIDAL was willing to even pay for the album what Prince felt it was worth, that just showed the appreciation that Jay Z has for music and for Prince. TIDAL were the only ones who said 'we're going to pay you directly for the work that you do'. ''It was a beautiful decision that Prince made, based just on relationships. I don't think it took Prince long to make the decision, and fortunately Hannah [Joshua's wife and 3RDEYEGIRL drummer] and I met with Jay Z at a listening party. He's a really great guy, and the level of greatness that he brings to the table just adds to the great cause.'' Joshua also revealed that 'HITNRUN' features some new sounds that fans will not have heard before. He told Gigwise: ''I would definitely say that people will put this on and say 'I have never heard this sound on a Prince record before'. I've heard that said. There's definitely some stuff that will tickle your ears a little bit. ''Prince is a creative, so it's not like he's going to constantly create the same thing. There's new inspiration - it's constantly moving. I don't think people have heard him in this light before, but you'll definitely be able to turn it up loud and get your groove on to it.''
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i think it's interesting to note that Joshua Welton seems to be the only one who indicated that prince's entire catalog would be released. http://prince.org/msg/7/418322?pr - This Could Be Us New version now on Tidal. (Update - Google Play and iTunes too) http://prince.org/msg/7/418031 - New Prince song featuring Jay-Z http://prince.org/msg/7/418005 - HITNRUN Tidal Exclusive Sept. 7th http://prince.org/msg/7/419900- Jay-Z's musical diversity on Prince is not that diverese... http://prince.org/msg/7/420507 - Tidal download shop http://prince.org/msg/7/422963?pr - HitnRun Phase Two Finally Gets Distribution * Prince to Perform at Tidal X: 1020 in New York Oct. 20th??
Reply #202 posted 10/19/15 10:34pm
Basically 1,629 prince fans trying to get rid of their tix.. I don't blame them I would've only bought a ticket for Prince in that lineup....
. Btw here is confirmation of him not playing tonight... Update: Prince (@Prince3EG) won't be performing at tonight's @TIDALHiFi concert http://p4k.co/TCGfo . Reply #205 posted 10/20/15 12:27pm Prince & Co have been tweeting & deleting like mo' today. AZDetroitLion @azcwillams @Prince3EG I get it...there will be Too Much Cursing on that stage tonight. #Peace & deleted it . Reply #216 posted 10/21/15 3:09am
while 'Someday My Prince Will Come' was played over the PA. Stop the Prince Apologists ™
********************************************************* Thread started 12/22/15 1:40pm
NEW Ebony Interview: "Hopefully I'll be remastering... A new GREATEST HITS." New EBONY article:
Prince asked me to keep some secrets. I may still have a few, truth be told. This past summer, a call went out to a few music journalists to visit the purple rock, Paisley Park Studios in Minneapolis. Joshua Welton, 25, had a few words to share about producing his first Prince project, Hit N Run. The operative word being “few.” After 10 minutes of talk, Prince himself entered Studio A and took over the conversation for two enlightening hours, discussing everything from Jay Z’s Tidal streaming service to the origins behind “Purple Rain” and “The Beautiful Ones,” and the reformation of The Time. Bob Seger, Esperanza Spalding, Kendrick Lamar and beyond. Our couple of hours raced by faster than the accelerated voice of Camille. Then Prince disappeared, pulling up later in front of Paisley Park in a Cadillac sports car to play his already finished, secret follow-up to Hit N Run. On December 12, Hit N Run: Phase Two arrived on Tidal for streaming and digital download. So now you know. The following is a feverish transcription of more of our August convo from the summertime, previously unpublished. There may be more; Prince is full of secrets.
Prince: You ever heard of checking your list to see who’s naughty and who’s nice? I just let people talk. I was talking to somebody about “The Beautiful Ones.” They were speculating as to who I was singing about. But they were completely wrong. If they look at it, it’s very obvious. “Do you want him or do you want me,” that was written for that scene in Purple Rain specifically. Where Morris [Day] would be sitting with [Apollonia], and there’d be this back and forth. And also, “The beautiful ones you always seem to lose,” Vanity had just quit the movie. To then speculate, “Well, he wrote that song about me”? Afterwards you go, “Who are you? Why do you think that you’re part of the script that way? And why would you go around saying stuff like that?” So we just let people talk and say whatever they want to say. Nine times out of 10, trust me, what’s out there now, I wouldn’t give nary one of these folks the time of day. That’s why I don’t say anything back, because there’s so much that’s wrong.
. Reply #132 posted 12/23/15 4:13am - I shouldn’t have read this interview. After the total disappointment of Phase Two, my enthusiasm for Prince’s music is nearly completely obliterated by all of the hyper religious mumbo jumbo, especially this passage: - “I check people out now to see how faith-based they are and how real they are about it. That goes a long way, I gotta tell you. Because I can trust them. I can give him the key and don’t have to worry.” - First, if he really believes that then he’s a fool. Second, perhaps I should see how "non faith-based" an artist is before I invest so much time and money into their music. And third, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again.....someone should really get Prince in touch with Neil deGrasse Tyson....STAT!!!! - I bet this interview was covertly recorded because it appears as if it was quoted verbatim. Even with taking notes I don’t think it would be possible to get this level of detail. That might be why it was yanked.....Prince knows it was recorded and that violated the terms of the interview. - Hi-yo Silver, it's The Bone Ranger!
and don't forget, after pleading guilty JayZ was criminally convicted for stabbing a producer http://www.mtv.com/news/1...-stabbing/
ps: this is only my personal interpretation of JayZ's alleged entitlement to prince's entire catalog based on available ORG threads from the past. [Edited 12/20/16 23:01pm] | |
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XxAxX said: i think it's interesting to note that Joshua Welton seems to be the only one who indicated that prince's entire catalog would be released.
[Edited 12/20/16 20:31pm] [Edited 12/20/16 20:32pm] oooweee ima bout to comb through this when I get time  [Edited 12/20/16 20:40pm] I asked Prince what he was planning to do. He told me , I'm going to look for the ladder. I asked him what that meant. All he said was, sometimes it snows in April. - book D.M.S.R. | |
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[Edited 12/20/16 20:43pm] | |
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XxAxX said:
[Edited 12/20/16 20:43pm] You rock XXX. I love you I asked Prince what he was planning to do. He told me , I'm going to look for the ladder. I asked him what that meant. All he said was, sometimes it snows in April. - book D.M.S.R. | |
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[Edited 12/20/16 22:07pm] | |
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okay i think i'm done editing for now. ha! nope. wasn't done.... might be now though
Jay Z is a pathological liar, he does not own Prince masters. He is a poser in the highest form. He lies a lot about his business ventures and what he owns. He was rapping that he own the NETS NBA team and dude only owns 1.5% stake in the team. He is FRAUD just like his annoying wife.
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XxAxX said: i think it's interesting to note that Joshua Welton seems to be the only one who indicated that prince's entire catalog would be released. http://prince.org/msg/7/418322?pr - This Could Be Us New version now on Tidal. (Update - Google Play and iTunes too) http://prince.org/msg/7/418031 - New Prince song featuring Jay-Z http://prince.org/msg/7/418005 - HITNRUN Tidal Exclusive Sept. 7th http://prince.org/msg/7/419900- Jay-Z's musical diversity on Prince is not that diverese... http://prince.org/msg/7/420507 - Tidal download shop http://prince.org/msg/7/422963?pr - HitnRun Phase Two Finally Gets Distribution * Prince to Perform at Tidal X: 1020 in New York Oct. 20th??
Reply #202 posted 10/19/15 10:34pm
Basically 1,629 prince fans trying to get rid of their tix.. I don't blame them I would've only bought a ticket for Prince in that lineup....
. Btw here is confirmation of him not playing tonight... Update: Prince (@Prince3EG) won't be performing at tonight's @TIDALHiFi concert http://p4k.co/TCGfo . Reply #205 posted 10/20/15 12:27pm Prince & Co have been tweeting & deleting like mo' today. AZDetroitLion @azcwillams @Prince3EG I get it...there will be Too Much Cursing on that stage tonight. #Peace & deleted it . Reply #216 posted 10/21/15 3:09am
while 'Someday My Prince Will Come' was played over the PA. Stop the Prince Apologists ™
***** Thread started 12/22/15 1:40pm
NEW Ebony Interview: "Hopefully I'll be remastering... A new GREATEST HITS." New EBONY article:
Prince asked me to keep some secrets. I may still have a few, truth be told. This past summer, a call went out to a few music journalists to visit the purple rock, Paisley Park Studios in Minneapolis. Joshua Welton, 25, had a few words to share about producing his first Prince project, Hit N Run. The operative word being “few.” After 10 minutes of talk, Prince himself entered Studio A and took over the conversation for two enlightening hours, discussing everything from Jay Z’s Tidal streaming service to the origins behind “Purple Rain” and “The Beautiful Ones,” and the reformation of The Time. Bob Seger, Esperanza Spalding, Kendrick Lamar and beyond. Our couple of hours raced by faster than the accelerated voice of Camille. Then Prince disappeared, pulling up later in front of Paisley Park in a Cadillac sports car to play his already finished, secret follow-up to Hit N Run. On December 12, Hit N Run: Phase Two arrived on Tidal for streaming and digital download. So now you know. The following is a feverish transcription of more of our August convo from the summertime, previously unpublished. There may be more; Prince is full of secrets.
Prince: You ever heard of checking your list to see who’s naughty and who’s nice? I just let people talk. I was talking to somebody about “The Beautiful Ones.” They were speculating as to who I was singing about. But they were completely wrong. If they look at it, it’s very obvious. “Do you want him or do you want me,” that was written for that scene in Purple Rain specifically. Where Morris [Day] would be sitting with [Apollonia], and there’d be this back and forth. And also, “The beautiful ones you always seem to lose,” Vanity had just quit the movie. To then speculate, “Well, he wrote that song about me”? Afterwards you go, “Who are you? Why do you think that you’re part of the script that way? And why would you go around saying stuff like that?” So we just let people talk and say whatever they want to say. Nine times out of 10, trust me, what’s out there now, I wouldn’t give nary one of these folks the time of day. That’s why I don’t say anything back, because there’s so much that’s wrong.
. Reply #132 posted 12/23/15 4:13am - I shouldn’t have read this interview. After the total disappointment of Phase Two, my enthusiasm for Prince’s music is nearly completely obliterated by all of the hyper religious mumbo jumbo, especially this passage: - “I check people out now to see how faith-based they are and how real they are about it. That goes a long way, I gotta tell you. Because I can trust them. I can give him the key and don’t have to worry.” - First, if he really believes that then he’s a fool. Second, perhaps I should see how "non faith-based" an artist is before I invest so much time and money into their music. And third, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again.....someone should really get Prince in touch with Neil deGrasse Tyson....STAT!!!! - I bet this interview was covertly recorded because it appears as if it was quoted verbatim. Even with taking notes I don’t think it would be possible to get this level of detail. That might be why it was yanked.....Prince knows it was recorded and that violated the terms of the interview. - Hi-yo Silver, it's The Bone Ranger!
and don't forget, after pleading guilty JayZ was criminally convicted for stabbing a producer http://www.mtv.com/news/1...-stabbing/
ps: this is only my personal interpretation of JayZ's alleged entitlement to prince's entire catalog based on available ORG threads from the past. [Edited 12/20/16 23:01pm] -/-- Why did you post all this stuff? Prince not showing up to the Tidal concert means nothing. Do you realize that just a few weeks before he died he sent live tracks to Tidal. Do you think someone was controlling his brain and made his send those live tracks? He wanted to get upfront money from streaming services just like the services give up front money to record labels. He got that deal from Tidal/Aspire. The Ebony article was pulled but Ebony printed the article in full in there tribute edition in June so you can go read the article if you want to. Once again people need to stop taking their hate for Jay-z and transposing it on to Tidal he us just a large shareholder not the sole owner of the company. He also made an offer to be the administer of Prince music not buy the masters. [Edited 12/21/16 3:46am] | |
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Once again Laura, Im on the same page...
How can anybody think that Prince did not know what he was doing,or that he was tricked or controlled. ? They had a plan and there are clues to what that was.
It takes CLEAR Thinking and Laura I know you cop a lot of Flack from time to time, but in this instance you have shown yourself to be an insighful impartial observer...
Offering to Administrate Princes Catalogue is a HUGE DEAL and whatever I may think about JAYZ He is well equipped to do this.
Further I do believe he is at heart very connected tp Prince, In a sense this is Jayz. opportunity to "Step UP"
It WILL Help TIdal long term and Tidal/JayZ and other shareholders will be small stakeholders in the distribution of one part of his legacy...
So what ?
Its Win Win as far as I see it...
[Edited 12/21/16 3:38am] | |
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I dont particularly like Jayzs music, and he is an odd looking kind of Character,but somehow he is sitting at a table with, amongst others, Phaedra , Llondell, Tyka and now Van Jones as of Dec 8,,,
All these people LOVE Prince..They are wanting to do the best for him out of Love and Respect
I have absolute faith they will work out something.. | |
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Thank you. What I think is that NPG LLC should continue to be the administrator with Phedra as the manager or some entertainment lawfirm managing maybe Van is going to help with that.
I think the music should stay on Tidal with all of the vault material being availble. Tidal has a download store you can buy the music from that store. I only think the music should go to Tidal for streaming if the financial aspects can be worked out. I also think it would be great if some of the music could be on other platforms later down the road it is just that the estate not going to get much money out of that right now.
Making that deal with Universal to me was awful. What if anything is Universal doing about bootlegs and YOUTUBE. I think their only interest is to put music is movies and T.V. shows so that can get their cut. | |
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In other words there are many slices to Princes pie, and naturally there is an opportunity to make Money. I agree It needs to go on other Platforms, and it will..This is a solid start...after Tidal they can expand and Even jayZ could Administrte that.
Its up to Phaedra and Vin to see that the percentages are divided appropriately and according to what they know Princes more intimate thoughts.
Most interesting and speculative thread Im participating in..
Except for Prince and Religion .
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again this is only my opinion as i clearly stated above. i am allowed to think differently from you and post my differing opinion here, right? please don't attack me for expressing my opinion. and remember your opinions are also based upon speculation, no matter how strongly you believe yourself to be correct. there was no need for you to make shit up and toss it in gratuitously like that bit about mind control. [Edited 12/21/16 6:44am] | |
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There may be some people on the org who know intimate details about Prince's business dealings and all that has happened since he was found eight months ago today. I sure don't. I don't think it is worth arguing about. The only true facts are Prince died and the immediate cause of death was a Fentanyl overdose. We are all speculating and therefore all opinions should be welcome and reviewed, not trashed because they do not fit with a particular mindset. If somebody reading this has THE FACTS, then write them here for all to see. Otherwise ... | |
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