They influenced his sound as much as Andre did, or Eric, or Levi, or whoever, but perhaps more than some others. Many of Prince's band people showed him new music. The great thing about Prince is that not only did he have this incredible gift, he was quite open to other sounds and influences. Take away the genius, and he was still a fan of music like the rest of us. W&L certainly played a big part in a short time period. Their contribution cannot be denied. But it's not the only artistically interesting period that he had.

Remember, he was recording stuff all on his own up to that point. And the variety of stuff from For You through 1999 was incredible. Rock, pop, ballad, punk, rockabilly. W&L wasn't part of any of that. Nor were they part of something incredibly focused like Batman, or purposeful like Lovesexy. He didn't lose something - but rather he found new ground to build on.

Poorlovelycomputer said:

Did the departure of Wendy and Lisa hurt or help Prince artistically after the breakup of the Revolution in 86? I feel it was still amazing but it lost something after they left? Any thoughts on the subject?

I just don't see it that way. I think the last years of his life he had some really good productions.

I always liked how he was constantly evolving and working with different sounds and band members throughout his entire career. Even though the years with the Revolution gave him the most commercial success, he was certainly one artist I feel, that could not be pigeonholed and was never afraid to take risks.

Oh he just lost two things - Wendy and Lisa haha - that was all.

.

He was a total badass before and after W+L. I love that era but it's one of many and I love all of his music. Personally, I prefer his post-W+L material more. People come and go all the time and that is just life. Different is not bad - it'd be unPrince-like to not keep changing.

Lets see. After W&L, he released SOTT, The Black Album, and Lovesexy.

Iamtheorg said:

Lets see. After W&L, he released SOTT, The Black Album, and Lovesexy.

Yep, and before he worked with Wendy, he did Dirty Minds, COntroversy and perhaps my favorite album 1999.

If he had stayed with Wendy and LIsa and the Revolution, eventually, I suspect that people would have found the work repetitive. Wendy and LIsa were very talented on their own so I don't think they could have played backup, contributors, or occasional co-writers forever.

I reckon that the biggest reason Prince might have struggled after the 80's was that he had invented or co-invented the Minneapolis sound in the 80's and the 1990's was sort of like starting from scratch. In a way, that is him out on a limb. He started to embrace hip hop, new jack swing and alternative rock to varying degrees of success. Because of this, I think his successes are even more impressive in a way and his failures are completely understandable.

Re-invention is a tricky thing. Plus, the eighties for all its flaws was an anything-goes kind of decade for music--there were trends but they were fast; but there were also stalwarts. . Prince's unique and all-encompassing sound was given room to develop. The 90's was much more focused on musical movements. The alternative rock movement and gangster rap just sort of dominated (and most other forms of music paled in comparison). I think Prince's fear of being labeled disconnected from 'black' music and his concern for record sales along with his dispute with the record industry all made for a rather tumulteous era. But in that mess, there was a still a lot of great music.

In the eighties, almost all of his music was good, in the 90's, his more obscure music was my favorite ( in some cases of his career), and in the 2000's his attempts at commerciality were often the most creative songs he did.

[Edited 10/30/16 21:42pm]

[Edited 10/30/16 21:48pm]

I don't understand the fascination with Wendy and Lisa as Prince's collaborators. Prince had collaborators before them, like Dez, Andre, Morris and Jesse Johnson. He had collaborators at the same time he was working with W&L like Sheila E, Jesse Johnson, Levi Seacer, Miko Weaver, Eric Leeds, and Fink. Lisa, Wendy and Susannah weren't the first people to ever let Prince listen to other artists. They didn't introduce Prince to white music that Prince didn't have access to in Minnesota or that other musicans around him weren't hip to. They did GREAT songs together, fantastic, timeless stuff but so did other collaborators and sometimes even with W&L having input, Prince repeated a concept. What I mean by that is, how different is 'When u were mine' from '17 days'? A lot of times the MOST commercially successful time in an artists career also highlights the people around that artist from that time. The W&L influence and reputation benefits greatly from the Purple Rain era being so monumentally successful. However, the lead up to that album and those collaborators like Dez and Morris and Jesse Johnson, who were intrumental in pushing Prince as a musician, get overlooked. Those guys were Prince's competition and Prince had to be better than them and he drove himself to work and work and work to be a better guitarist and a better drummer and put together better groves than Jesse and better lead solo's than Dez but those guys were not part of the boom period so they don't get the credit. In my opinion, Dez, Jesse and Morris, deserve just as much recognition, if not more than W&L because they were in the trenches with Prince when he wasn't so successful and he could have lost his deal if his projects didn't keep getting better and better. Dirty Mind, Controversy and 1999 are just as important and musically groundbreaking as Purple Rain, ATWIAD and Parade. The Time albums were eye openers for Warners and Morris and Jesse Johnson were creative forces helping Prince mold those projects. Dez and Jesse were great helpers on the Vanity album. Prince had help, although he was the visionary and always did the work, he did have help well before Wendy and Lisa. Still, I would be remiss if I didn;t say I think Prince and Lisa were perfect together and Lisa was a constant collaborator throughout the early and Purple Rain eras of Prince music including the Time, Dr Fink as well. All these wonderful musicians get overlooked by the folklore of the triplets' and in mu opinion, it's not fair at all.

Oh no, not this fight again, this always ends up in a huge shouting match about racism

For what its worth I wish he had released a configuration of Dream Factory with the Revolution along with Camille on his own. In that scenario, we'd hear some of his best work with others alongside stuff that only he could do pretty much alone.Anything after that its hard to know. As they admit themselves he got rid of them because he wanted to go in a different direction.

Maybe we should have had Wendy rapping on Gett Off instead of Tony M.

26ten said:

Oh he just lost two things - Wendy and Lisa haha - that was all.

.

He was a total badass before and after W+L. I love that era but it's one of many and I love all of his music. Personally, I prefer his post-W+L material more. People come and go all the time and that is just life. Different is not bad - it'd be unPrince-like to not keep changing.

He also lost Bobby Z and Brown Mark.

[Edited 10/30/16 23:18pm]

Iamtheorg said:

Lets see. After W&L, he released SOTT, The Black Album, and Lovesexy.

I think SOTT was a Wendy and Lisa record as well. Wendy seems to feel some ownership of SOTT in past interviews. I always felt like the true post Revolution album was Lovesexy.

I actually think Wendy and Lisa don't get ENOUGH credit. The reason I think so is because of how defensive people get when their names are brought up. Prince openly admitted their influence. It's documented how much work they did for him. Their collaboration superceded people who came before such as Andre. And after they left, the quality of Prince's work sufferred. Not across the board, but certainly in respects to how he curated his material, and what he chose to release. Wendy and Lisa have also been very vocal about what they didn't do, and have taken pains to explain how Prince was leading the ship, but the musical relationship they had was special.

I'd like to note as well that I theorize that Prince's quality of work starting to go down after Wendy and Lisa left had something to do with his fame, and that their deprature signalled a change in Prince's life and working relationships. He no longer had people saying no to him, and that had an impact. I think perhaps Shelia replaced Wendy and Lisa for a while, but once she was gone, it was all 'employees', and synchophants. Which probably wasn't a helathy environment.

JudasLChrist said:

JudasLChrist said:

I think SOTT was a Wendy and Lisa record as well. Wendy seems to feel some ownership of SOTT in past interviews. I always felt like the true post Revolution album was Lovesexy.

I actually think Wendy and Lisa don't get ENOUGH credit. The reason I think so is because of how defensive people get when their names are brought up. Prince openly admitted their influence. It's documented how much work they did for him. Their collaboration superceded people who came before such as Andre. And after they left, the quality of Prince's work sufferred. Not across the board, but certainly in respects to how he curated his material, and what he chose to release.

Duck for cover.

Is his music really that bad after Wendy and Lisa? And wasn't Wendy like 18 years old when she was brought into band? Did she not learn anything from him? Did Prince not have any influence on the musicians around him?

SOTT was a Wendy and Lisa album? WOW, they should have sued him for plagarism. The "Prince Vault" site must have it wrong when it states that almost every song on SOTT was writteny by Prince. Sorry I pulled you words out of context but a newbie might infer from your opening statement that the basic foundation of those songs was not Prince. He was not mick Jagger or Paul McCartney (charismatic co-leaders of respective influential bands. ) He started as a solo artist and he ended that way. Also could he have not emulated the revolution sound without w and L's physical presence being there. I am grateful for their contributions and do see your point about prince's need of an editor but imagine what P was thinking. He was originally billed as a one man band -- a lot to live up to.

jaypotton said:

JudasLChrist said:

I think SOTT was a Wendy and Lisa record as well. Wendy seems to feel some ownership of SOTT in past interviews. I always felt like the true post Revolution album was Lovesexy.

I actually think Wendy and Lisa don't get ENOUGH credit. The reason I think so is because of how defensive people get when their names are brought up. Prince openly admitted their influence. It's documented how much work they did for him. Their collaboration superceded people who came before such as Andre. And after they left, the quality of Prince's work sufferred. Not across the board, but certainly in respects to how he curated his material, and what he chose to release. Wendy and Lisa have also been very vocal about what they didn't do, and have taken pains to explain how Prince was leading the ship, but the musical relationship they had was special.

I'd like to note as well that I theorize that Prince's quality of work starting to go down after Wendy and Lisa left had something to do with his fame, and that their deprature signalled a change in Prince's life and working relationships. He no longer had people saying no to him, and that had an impact. I think perhaps Shelia replaced Wendy and Lisa for a while, but once she was gone, it was all 'employees', and synchophants. Which probably wasn't a helathy environment.

As you clearly know SOTT grew out of Dream Factory (and Camille and Crystal Ball) so a fair few songs were initially recorded with Wendy & Lisa so it is no surprise they feel some "ownership" over SOTT. As others have said the reason W&L get brought up often is that they are synonymous with Prince's commercial peak and when he exploded on the consciousness of the masses through a hit movie that had W&L prominent in the story line (as the writers of Purple Rain the song). There is absolutely no doubt they had a major positive influence and Prince has been quoted as saying they introduced him to "colour in music" ie. Different tonal sounds. So W&L enriched Prince but there were definitely others too. As said above though, the bigger Prince got the less actual influence others were able to have on him. They became employees rather than true collaborators. And that is despite the fact that many of the musicians who were in Prince's bands post 86 were still amazing musicians in their own right. P.S. Would definitely have preferred Wendy or Lisa rapping on Gett Off rather than Tony M

[Edited 10/31/16 4:28am]

[Edited 10/31/16 4:33am]

[Edited 10/31/16 5:29am]

[Edited 10/31/16 5:42am]

Poorlovelycomputer said:

Did the departure of Wendy and Lisa hurt or help Prince artistically after the breakup of the Revolution in 86? I feel it was still amazing but it lost something after they left? Any thoughts on the subject?

.

It would have been interesting to see where Wendy & Lisa's collaborative efforts with Prince would've gone. But, aside from Clare Fischer, P wasn't really about longterm collaborations so it seems their exit was part of his natural evolution as an artist.

.

It was his departure from Warner Bros. that caused irreparable damage to his career and status, artistically and commercially. That's the dividing line - the sudden autonomy - that splits his career into (roughly) two halfs.

SOTT was not a W&L/Revolution album. That's a myth. There's some minor contributions from W&L, but really very little, and nothing in the song writing departement. I know that SOTT "grew out of" the Dream Factory sessions, but the songs that W&L contributed to did not make the cut.

paulludvig said:

jaypotton said:

paulludvig said:

SOTT was not a W&L/Revolution album. That's a myth. There's some minor contributions from W&L, but really very little, and nothing in the song writing departement. I know that SOTT "grew out of" the Dream Factory sessions, but the songs that W&L contributed to did not make the cut.

I don't think anyone is saying SOTT was a W&L album (well I am not anyway) but the evolution of the album that became SOTT had its roots in recording sessions heavily involving W&L. It is also reported that Prince removed W&L from some of the songs that did make the final cut. There is no doubt they had a positive influence on Prince but there is also no doubt Prince would have been BIG without them. And of course Prince had a massive MASSIVE impact on the musicians he worked with. He was the master and all of them were the students! [Edited 10/31/16 6:40am]

I think that refers to Strange Relationship (and only that). W&L's contribution was burried in the mix.

26ten said:

Oh he just lost two things - Wendy and Lisa haha - that was all.

.

He was a total badass before and after W+L. I love that era but it's one of many and I love all of his music. Personally, I prefer his post-W+L material more. People come and go all the time and that is just life. Different is not bad - it'd be unPrince-like to not keep changing.

jaawwnn said:

Oh no, not this fight again, this always ends up in a huge shouting match about racism

For what its worth I wish he had released a configuration of Dream Factory with the Revolution along with Camille on his own. In that scenario, we'd hear some of his best work with others alongside stuff that only he could do pretty much alone.Anything after that its hard to know. As they admit themselves he got rid of them because he wanted to go in a different direction.

Maybe we should have had Wendy rapping on Gett Off instead of Tony M.

26ten said:

Oh he just lost two things - Wendy and Lisa haha - that was all.

.

He was a total badass before and after W+L. I love that era but it's one of many and I love all of his music. Personally, I prefer his post-W+L material more. People come and go all the time and that is just life. Different is not bad - it'd be unPrince-like to not keep changing.

He also lost Bobby Z and Brown Mark.

[Edited 10/30/16 23:18pm]

I hope this discussion won't move to race - I remember the thread which you are referencing and we'd do well to not repeat the errors of the past haha

.

Also - man that would be weird - Wendy rapping haha

W&L were great, but Prince's creativity wouldve remained likely pretty similar. He was on a path. There were many players on that path.

paulludvig said:

SOTT was not a W&L/Revolution album. That's a myth. There's some minor contributions from W&L, but really very little, and nothing in the song writing departement. I know that SOTT "grew out of" the Dream Factory sessions, but the songs that W&L contributed to did not make the cut.

It's gonna be a beautiful night is a Revolution song.

JudasLChrist said:

Iamtheorg said:

Lets see. After W&L, he released SOTT, The Black Album, and Lovesexy.

I think SOTT was a Wendy and Lisa record as well.

Nah because he erased most of their contributions

Before The Revolution era we got Dirty Mind, Controvery and 1999, which is as good of an era as any. During The Revolution era we got Purple Rain, ATWIAD and Parade, his most commercially successful era. Immediately after The Revolution era we got Lovesexy, The Black Album and SOTT, perhaps his most critically aclaimed era. We can argue which of these 3 eras are the best. The fact that "The Revolution" era is only one of the 3 tells you everything that you need to know in terms of him losing any artistic creativity. He was at least as good before and after. He did take a dip, in my opinion, from 1989-1993ish, but that is what it is. I would also argue that his output in the 2000's up until his death was just as good as any golden age from the 80's.

donnyenglish said:

Before The Revolution era we got Dirty Mind, Controvery and 1999, which is as good of an era as any. During The Revolution era we got Purple Rain, ATWIAD and Parade, his most commercially successful era. Immediately after The Revolution era we got Lovesexy, The Black Album and SOTT, perhaps his most critically aclaimed era. We can argue which of these 3 eras are the best. The fact that "The Revolution" era is only one of the 3 tells you everything that you need to know in terms of him losing any artistic creativity. He was at least as good before and after. He did take a dip, in my opinion, from 1989-1993ish, but that is what it is. I would also argue that his output in the 2000's up until his death was just as good as any golden age from the 80's.

paulludvig said:

jaypotton said:

paulludvig said: I don't think anyone is saying SOTT was a W&L album (well I am not anyway) but the evolution of the album that became SOTT had its roots in recording sessions heavily involving W&L. It is also reported that Prince removed W&L from some of the songs that did make the final cut. There is no doubt they had a positive influence on Prince but there is also no doubt Prince would have been BIG without them. And of course Prince had a massive MASSIVE impact on the musicians he worked with. He was the master and all of them were the students! [Edited 10/31/16 6:40am]

I think that refers to Strange Relationship (and only that). W&L's contribution was burried in the mix.

the vibe and flow of music was with the Revolution. So even though it was released after the band was departed, it still came out of the Dream Factory sessions.
Not to mention they the Revolution Susannah were on songs on the SOTT album etc etc etc

donnyenglish said:

Before The Revolution era we got Dirty Mind, Controvery and 1999, which is as good of an era as any. During The Revolution era we got Purple Rain, ATWIAD and Parade, his most commercially successful era. Immediately after The Revolution era we got Lovesexy, The Black Album and SOTT, perhaps his most critically aclaimed era. We can argue which of these 3 eras are the best. The fact that "The Revolution" era is only one of the 3 tells you everything that you need to know in terms of him losing any artistic creativity. He was at least as good before and after. He did take a dip, in my opinion, from 1989-1993ish, but that is what it is. I would also argue that his output in the 2000's up until his death was just as good as any golden age from the 80's.

Ok the Lovesexy era was not because of the album, but the visual tour
Even EYE NO came from Ball(Dream Factory sessions)

No one has every said SOTT Black Album Lovesexy were his most critically acclaimed era since the Black album officially had no era

Personally I tend to go 1979-1989

BUT as far as serious PRINCEd out era/scene 1982-1987

OldFriends4Sale said:

donnyenglish said:

Before The Revolution era we got Dirty Mind, Controvery and 1999, which is as good of an era as any. During The Revolution era we got Purple Rain, ATWIAD and Parade, his most commercially successful era. Immediately after The Revolution era we got Lovesexy, The Black Album and SOTT, perhaps his most critically aclaimed era. We can argue which of these 3 eras are the best. The fact that "The Revolution" era is only one of the 3 tells you everything that you need to know in terms of him losing any artistic creativity. He was at least as good before and after. He did take a dip, in my opinion, from 1989-1993ish, but that is what it is. I would also argue that his output in the 2000's up until his death was just as good as any golden age from the 80's.

Ok the Lovesexy era was not because of the album, but the visual tour
Even EYE NO came from Ball(Dream Factory sessions)

No one has every said SOTT Black Album Lovesexy were his most critically acclaimed era since the Black album officially had no era

Personally I tend to go 1979-1989

BUT as far as serious PRINCEd out era/scene 1982-1987

Lovesexy the Album was great and is almost universally loved by his hard core fans. SOTT is clearly his most critically aclaimed album and is always at the top of any polls amongst fans. The fact that he made that album after The Revolution, in fact, immediately after The Revolution era really debunks any notion that he lost his creativity after they broke up. In fact, his best live performance and band was immediately after the Revolution broke up.

Poorlovelycomputer said:

donnyenglish said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Ok the Lovesexy era was not because of the album, but the visual tour
Even EYE NO came from Ball(Dream Factory sessions)

No one has every said SOTT Black Album Lovesexy were his most critically acclaimed era since the Black album officially had no era

Personally I tend to go 1979-1989

BUT as far as serious PRINCEd out era/scene 1982-1987

Lovesexy the Album was great and is almost universally loved by his hard core fans. SOTT is clearly his most critically aclaimed album and is always at the top of any polls amongst fans. The fact that he made that album after The Revolution, in fact, immediately after The Revolution era really debunks any notion that he lost his creativity after they broke up. In fact, his best live performance and band was immediately after the Revolution broke up.

most hardcore fans I've talked to even here have always expressed a weird reaction to it. From questioning the cover to the intent. I love it too,.

What album are you saying that he made after the Revolution? Lovesexy or SOTT. 95% of the SOTT music was done way before the Revolution was departed ie Dream Factory. The SOTT band did not work on that music outside of Dr Fink Atlanta Bliss & Eric Leeds

Also the fullness of creative energies can pass easily into a few following years.
Again my favorite years and people with Prince are 1978-1989 forever...