JudasLChrist said:

This is actually not my post, that is quoted here, but a quote that I used in my post....

I agree with Madcat only the die hards really care much after 89 ( I liked most of the material)if we're all honest. 3rd eye did bring a freshness the music had been lacking for years. When he followed trends his music seemed to get lost trying to emulate what genre was popular at the time.

MD431Madcat said:

Prince is largely remembered as a solo artist even though he had bands, by the general public. The Revolution were a great band but the general public tended to focus on just him.

BillieBalloon said:

MD431Madcat said:

THE REVOLUTION
WERE THE ONLY PRINCE BAND

THAT THE GENERAL PUBLIC

EVER KNEW OR CARED ABOUT.

And the entire band/vibe/music/look

elevated 'Prince' to heights he hadn't seen before or after them.

Prince is largely remembered as a solo artist even though he had bands, by the general public. The Revolution were a great band but the general public tended to focus on just him.

Not in the 80s. And I'm talking about all of them.
The bands,, his and the proteges

It had a big part of what made that period so huge

Poorlovelycomputer said:

I agree with Madcat only the die hards really care much after 89 ( I liked most of the material)if we're all honest. 3rd eye did bring a freshness the music had been lacking for years. When he followed trends his music seemed to get lost trying to emulate what genre was popular at the time.

Yes, a big reason is that from 2000-2011/12 he almost had the same band set up, and almost the same look, and Rainbow Children really was the only diverse sounding album out of ONA Musicology 3121 & Planet Earth, LotusFlow3r wasn't promoted much/music album wasn't rendered in their own concert as well as 20Ten... then we had the 2 1/2 -3 yr (much needed) wait before 3rd Eye Girl was presented.

can you clarify here? Your description of his post 2000 career is a bit confusing.

To both you folks, what trends was he following in Musicology, LotusFlower and 3121? Electro Funk? (he deserves to 'emulate his kind of music' since his synth funk is certainly a precursor to it), psychodelic rock? Hendrixs-like jams?

OldFriends4Sale said:

Poorlovelycomputer said:

I agree with Madcat only the die hards really care much after 89 ( I liked most of the material)if we're all honest. 3rd eye did bring a freshness the music had been lacking for years. When he followed trends his music seemed to get lost trying to emulate what genre was popular at the time.

Yes, a big reason is that from 2000-2011/12 he almost had the same band set up, and almost the same look, and Rainbow Children really was the only diverse sounding album out of ONA Musicology 3121 & Planet Earth, LotusFlow3r wasn't promoted much/music album wasn't rendered in their own concert as well as 20Ten... then we had the 2 1/2 -3 yr (much needed) wait before 3rd Eye Girl was presented.

Poorlovelycomputer said:

I agree with Madcat only the die hards really care much after 89 ( I liked most of the material)if we're all honest. 3rd eye did bring a freshness the music had been lacking for years. When he followed trends his music seemed to get lost trying to emulate what genre was popular at the time.

Yes, a big reason is that from 2000-2011/12 he almost had the same band set up, and almost the same look, and Rainbow Children really was the only diverse sounding album out of ONA Musicology 3121 & Planet Earth, LotusFlow3r wasn't promoted much/music album wasn't rendered in their own concert as well as 20Ten... then we had the 2 1/2 -3 yr (much needed) wait before 3rd Eye Girl was presented.

I walking about a freshness...
Not about him following trends
I was just trying to explain for me why 3rd Eye Girl was breath of fresh air

purplerabbithole said:

can you clarify here? Your description of his post 2000 career is a bit confusing.

To both you folks, what trends was he following in Musicology, LotusFlower and 3121? Electro Funk? (he deserves to 'emulate his kind of music' since his synth funk is certainly a precursor to it), psychodelic rock? Hendrixs-like jams?

OldFriends4Sale said:

Yes, a big reason is that from 2000-2011/12 he almost had the same band set up, and almost the same look, and Rainbow Children really was the only diverse sounding album out of ONA Musicology 3121 & Planet Earth, LotusFlow3r wasn't promoted much/music album wasn't rendered in their own concert as well as 20Ten... then we had the 2 1/2 -3 yr (much needed) wait before 3rd Eye Girl was presented.

Poorlovelycomputer said:

Did the departure of Wendy and Lisa hurt or help Prince artistically after the breakup of the Revolution in 86? I feel it was still amazing but it lost something after they left? Any thoughts on the subject?

A point missed in the debate so far is that there would have likely been a decline if they had stayed. He clearly was ready for a change and so that creative synergy between Prince and the Revolution could no longer continue at that same brilliant level due to cross purposes. The Revolution period was my absolute favorite, and it was preserved by ending it when it felt right to do so rather than prolonging the collaboration when Prince was no longer feeling it. Artists have to change to keep their creative spirit. The whole Dirty Mind to Lovesexy period including all the unreleased material and B sides was arguably unprecedented in terms of the amount of great music released in a short time, so it was inevitable that there had to be some slowing down of this no matter with whom he was collaborating. Great artists in all media are fortunate if they have one spurt of intense and profuse creativity, but even then it is typically not nearly to the level of Prince. Moreover, even this lower level is rarely sustained over time (at least in quantity of great work). When it is sustained, well just look what happened to Van Gogh!

The chemistry was there with the revolution simply put the other backing bands through the 90's were just a brand more or less(npg) of rotating (and talented) musicians. even in GB it really was back to solo Prince and D&P had varied results as the official prince and npg release

petalthecat said:

rob1965 said:

No, I don't think it did. It was his choice to end with The Revolution and he was still growing artistically back then. He kept re-inventing himself year after year and for me, he reached his first, ultimate peak with Lovesexy. Then, years later, he reached another peak with TRC. Maybe not in album sales, but artistically he kept on growing. A lot of his work from 2009 up to his last album showed he had enough up his sleeve to go on for years.

It all made sense when I read an interview with P explaining why he moved on from the Revolution. He said they were a tight band who he could give songs to rehearse and they would perform them to perfection. But, he wanted to evolve, to have a band he could jam with onstage, a band that could improvise..Here's another quote from last year; "You know people ask me...'Why don't I get the Revolution back together?" Prince pauses, then turns and smiles. "But,I mean...for what?"

I never bought that story.
Prince had the band doing that exactly the way they did so he could control the flow of the show. And Prince was still learning to be a frontman. 1978-1981 was Prince mostly working the guitar. Rarely piano or and almost never bass. The showmanship without an instrument we got a peak on the Controversy tour, then it went up a good notch on 1999 tour into the PR tour. Prince was not even comfortable dancing and had the band sit in the space with him and watch him dance for 3-5 hours until he becam comfortable. The PR tour prepared him to be able to cut loose without an instrument during the 1985 and Parade tour. The Parade tour was very diverse and had a lot of improvision.
But if you look back on a lot of off-concert shows, they clearly contradict the who improvision issue.
I'm listening to a 1982 First Avenue show where the Time did a few numbers, even listening to the 1983 August First Avenue show, some cut on the 1984 Birthday show, definately on the 1985 Masquerade show. Listen to a Texas PR tour show of Baby I'm A Star the part where they go into Blue Limousine... I also wonder why Prince never the the show cut loose on Computer Blue any further, you can tell the vibe was always ready to go further than that 'James Brownish' end piece Prince added... there are so many other examples...

gandorb said:

Poorlovelycomputer said:

Did the departure of Wendy and Lisa hurt or help Prince artistically after the breakup of the Revolution in 86? I feel it was still amazing but it lost something after they left? Any thoughts on the subject?

A point missed in the debate so far is that there would have likely been a decline if they had stayed. He clearly was ready for a change and so that creative synergy between Prince and the Revolution could no longer continue at that same brilliant level due to cross purposes. The Revolution period was my absolute favorite, and it was preserved by ending it when it felt right to do so rather than prolonging the collaboration when Prince was no longer feeling it. Artists have to change to keep their creative spirit. The whole Dirty Mind to Lovesexy period including all the unreleased material and B sides was arguably unprecedented in terms of the amount of great music released in a short time, so it was inevitable that there had to be some slowing down of this no matter with whom he was collaborating. Great artists in all media are fortunate if they have one spurt of intense and profuse creativity, but even then it is typically not nearly to the level of Prince. Moreover, even this lower level is rarely sustained over time (at least in quantity of great work). When it is sustained, well just look what happened to Van Gogh!

The issue was really an emotional reason he broke it up. Not musical.

So he basically restricted them to keep the shows tight. The America 12" proved they could cut loose

With the relationship ending with Susannah who wrote a memorable track on SOTT by the way and the lack of respect W&L were getting are the factors that at the root broke up the revolution

OldFriends4Sale said:

gandorb said:

A point missed in the debate so far is that there would have likely been a decline if they had stayed. He clearly was ready for a change and so that creative synergy between Prince and the Revolution could no longer continue at that same brilliant level due to cross purposes. The Revolution period was my absolute favorite, and it was preserved by ending it when it felt right to do so rather than prolonging the collaboration when Prince was no longer feeling it. Artists have to change to keep their creative spirit. The whole Dirty Mind to Lovesexy period including all the unreleased material and B sides was arguably unprecedented in terms of the amount of great music released in a short time, so it was inevitable that there had to be some slowing down of this no matter with whom he was collaborating. Great artists in all media are fortunate if they have one spurt of intense and profuse creativity, but even then it is typically not nearly to the level of Prince. Moreover, even this lower level is rarely sustained over time (at least in quantity of great work). When it is sustained, well just look what happened to Van Gogh!

The issue was really an emotional reason he broke it up. Not musical.

That may be, but he sure took made a dramatic creative turn by the time Lovesexy was released and a sound far away from the Revolution. I think it is hard to disentangle his musical ambition from how he treated others. What is the chicken or the egg, how he could become cold or more autocratic to his band members when he was veering in a different musical direction than them or did he move in a different musical direction when his relationships soured?

[Edited 11/1/16 19:38pm]

EXACTLY!

Dez and his look back then comes to mind...

OldFriends4Sale said:

BillieBalloon said:

MD431Madcat said: Prince is largely remembered as a solo artist even though he had bands, by the general public. The Revolution were a great band but the general public tended to focus on just him.

Not in the 80s. And I'm talking about all of them.
The bands,, his and the proteges

It had a big part of what made that period so huge

Had not those relationships with the three women soured Its apparent he planned on keeping them on board the DF blueprint was based on them playing a bigger role than previously their departure which prince fired them before they could quit cause prince to rethink his next project all together

OldFriends4Sale said:

I don't agree with this point. If that was the case, casual fans would have remembered The Revolutions more profoundly. From my perspective, and most of my circle of Prince friends from the era of the 80's, Prince was the main and only force behind our excitement. We thought The Revolutions were cool, and thought it was even more cool that he had female members Wendy and Lisa playing guitar and keyboard in his band, but that was as far as our elation and movement went with the Rev's. I never knew anyone that was hung up on the Revolutions that way. It was always about Prince. He was the one that drove us insane. It was his Posters we had on our walls, his face we scrambled to the television to see whenever any of his videos came on, his persona, charisma, and gifted musicianship that drove us to the reca stow, lol. We loved everything about him, the music, his voice, his style, his uniqueness... And yes, his band. But that's why we thought they were cool- because to us, they were Prince's band...

I will say though, through an adult eye, I've learned more about their inputs and I certainly give them credit for their contributions, but not enough to say, they took away from Prince's creativity after they left. From what I've perceived from insights into their inputs, while valuable, they were not momentous and Prince would go on to achieve commercial hits, along with critically acclaimed albums, and so much more without them. Would I have liked for the 80's music to be prolonged a little longer? Certainly... but Not moving on in his journey would have been the real stint in his creativity. Indeed, I'm glad that he did, I would have never known Emacipation and countless other albums and songs that moved me (albeit not in the same musical style as ATWIAD and Parade) but moved me just as substantially. And I can assure you that many other fans can name an album after The Revolutions that moved them just same. Prince pushed us off the cliff because we didn't want to jump. "Life is death without adventure."
[Edited 11/2/16 6:05am]

MD431Madcat said:

-- The Sign of the Times/Lovesexy band was his best band. Listen to Small Club.

OldFriends4Sale said:

gandorb said:

A point missed in the debate so far is that there would have likely been a decline if they had stayed. He clearly was ready for a change and so that creative synergy between Prince and the Revolution could no longer continue at that same brilliant level due to cross purposes. The Revolution period was my absolute favorite, and it was preserved by ending it when it felt right to do so rather than prolonging the collaboration when Prince was no longer feeling it. Artists have to change to keep their creative spirit. The whole Dirty Mind to Lovesexy period including all the unreleased material and B sides was arguably unprecedented in terms of the amount of great music released in a short time, so it was inevitable that there had to be some slowing down of this no matter with whom he was collaborating. Great artists in all media are fortunate if they have one spurt of intense and profuse creativity, but even then it is typically not nearly to the level of Prince. Moreover, even this lower level is rarely sustained over time (at least in quantity of great work). When it is sustained, well just look what happened to Van Gogh!

The issue was really an emotional reason he broke it up. Not musical.

He said himself he wanted to move in a different direction with his music.

It is stated that before the hit and run tour Wendy Lisa and Brownmark threatened to quit the revolution Bobby z was sent to the airport to retrieve them.Wendy and Lisa were fed up with the situation of the band adding security guards as backup dancers adding Susannah on vocals Brownmark was offered a large sum he settled on 3 grand a week the tour went on as planned and afterwards Wendy and Lisa were invited to dinner and fired on the spot and Brownmark quit out of loyalty to the other members.he was genius yes but it's well documented he sabotaged relationships throughout his career
[Edited 11/2/16 5:43am]

Poorlovelycomputer said:

It is stated that before the hit and run tour Wendy Lisa and Brownmark threatened to quit the Bobby z was sent to the airport to retrieve them.w nedy and Lisa were fed up with the situation of the band adding security guards as backup dancers adding Susannah Brownmark was offered a large sum he settled on 3 grand a week the went on as planned afterwards Wendy and Lisa were invited to dinner and fired on the spot and Brownmark quit out of loyalty to the other members.he was genius yes but it's well documented he sabotaged relationships throughout his career

Wow he was their boss they could be fired at anytime. Alan Leeds said that W+L were constantly threathing to quit while they were out on the road and should not have been surprised when they were fired. Don't keep trying to buck your boss and be surprised when you are handed your walking papers.

If Prince wanted bodyguards as back up dancers who are W+L to say anything. They always came off as line steppers who pushed things to far. Anyway the next band was much better.

The boss changed their relationship to collaborators.meaning they probably considered themselves as more valuable as far as the creative process goes but without a voice. From dez, to vanity,to st.paul,to Morris most left the prince camp with tension between them and prince. We all know it was his party but as fan I accept that he sometimes drove people to leave the party before it was over

laurarichardson said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

The issue was really an emotional reason he broke it up. Not musical.

He said himself he wanted to move in a different direction with his music.

That is the 'saving face reason' What was such a different direction during 1987-88? Don't do music from Dream Factory if you want to go into a different direction. Even the response to critics saying he lost the funk and such... how does Lovesexy reflect that?

Now by 1989 Sheila E leaving because 'the music had no more melody' and not liking the overt sexpot image he wanted her to go into is 1 example of a different direction. GB era was a watered down Lovesexy era with many failed protege projects... Jill Jones Dr Fink & Miko Weaver being the last of the purple friends order (oh well Levi was kept around before relegated to the halls of paisley Park where he left bitter)

.
In a 1990 interview he talked about it being hard to be a boss & a friend... that is also why a lot of the people from the 80s ended up outside of Prince's camp, not just Lisa & Wendy

.

He has said many things that made it clear there was an emotional reason. In This Bed I Scream screams that it was an emotional reason...

MD431Madcat said:

EXACTLY!

Dez and his look back then comes to mind...

OldFriends4Sale said:

Not in the 80s. And I'm talking about all of them.
The bands,, his and the proteges

It had a big part of what made that period so huge

Yep, if you look at Dez Dickersons punk rock style from early on, U can see the style influence

stuff that Prince was wearing during the Lovesexy period Dez was wearing in 1979/80

luvgirl said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Not in the 80s. And I'm talking about all of them.
The bands,, his and the proteges

It had a big part of what made that period so huge

I don't agree with this point. If that was the case, casual fans would have remembered The Revolutions more profoundly. From my perspective, and most of my circle of Prince friends from the era of the 80's, Prince was the main and only force behind our excitement. We thought The Revolutions were cool, and thought it was even more cool that he had female members Wendy and Lisa playing guitar and keyboard in his band, but that was as far as our elation and movement went with the Rev's. I never knew anyone that was hung up on the Revolutions that way. It was always about Prince. He was the one that drove us insane. It was his Posters we had on our walls, his face we scrambled to the television to see whenever any of his videos came on, his persona, charisma, and gifted musicianship that drove us to the reca stow, lol. We loved everything about him, the music, his voice, his style, his uniqueness... And yes, his band. But that's why we thought they were cool- because to us, they were Prince's band... I will say though, through an adult eye, I've learned more about their inputs and I certainly give them credit for their contributions, but not enough to say, they took away from Prince's creativity after they left. From what I've perceived from insights into their inputs, while valuable, they were not momentous and Prince would go on to achieve commercial hits, along with critically acclaimed albums, and so much more without them. Would I have liked for the 80's music to be prolonged a little longer? Certainly... but Not moving on in his journey would have been the real stint in his creativity. Indeed, I'm glad that he did, I would have never known Emacipation and countless other albums and songs that moved me (albeit not in the same musical style as ATWIAD and Parade) but moved me just as substantially. And I can assure you that many other fans can name an album after The Revolutions that moved them just same. Prince pushed us off the cliff because we didn't want to jump. "Life is death without adventure." [Edited 11/2/16 6:05am]

I said in the 1980s the bands were a huge part of the scene. I'm not talking about people remembering or not remembering later. I'm talking about in the 80s the bands were a huge part of the visual scene. Later on in the 90s and 2000s not so much

I was there too, the image and whose who was very exciting, I mean that the full scene surrounding Prince did have an impact and people were interested. Not just his band members but his protege groups. That is why that period was so exciting. The 1999 tour Vanity 6 the Time Prince (and the noituloveR) Jill Jones

same with the PR era with Prince & the Revolution, Sheila E and band, Jerome Benton etc

the Parade era Prince & the Revolution, Sheila E Eddie M the band the Family Mazarati

the SOTT period the band, Madhouse(even with their limited exposure)

After the 80s Prince could easily have just put the people in black outfits and kept them in the back

The bands after overall didn't have the same visual musical Prince reflection that drew interest.
People were still excited when we say Morris Day & Jerome Sheila E Wendy Lisa Eric Leeds join him though.

Poorlovelycomputer said:

I agree with Madcat only the die hards really care much after 89 ( I liked most of the material)if we're all honest. 3rd eye did bring a freshness the music had been lacking for years. When he followed trends his music seemed to get lost trying to emulate what genre was popular at the time.

Wow all those million plus people who went to the Musicology Tour and the O2 must not have realized he was following trends. When was Prince following trends. When he did rap he went out found his own rapper and did not have him do rap in a traditional manner.

He has a hugh catalogue do yourself a favor and educate yourself.

OldFriends4Sale said:

Oh ok you are correct in that regards. The whole scene, including Vanity, The Time, and The Rev's did bring a level of visual excitement to that era. I would even go as far as to say that the Rev's were a tad bit more hip than NPG, lol..
Prince wasn't interested in that kind of hip anymore though. It would have been easy to find another band with the kind of style as The Revolutions but he wanted to go the RNB route. Prince never stayed with one era for too long.
[Edited 11/2/16 6:55am]

laurarichardson said:

Poorlovelycomputer said:

I agree with Madcat only the die hards really care much after 89 ( I liked most of the material)if we're all honest. 3rd eye did bring a freshness the music had been lacking for years. When he followed trends his music seemed to get lost trying to emulate what genre was popular at the time.

Wow all those million plus people who went to the Musicology Tour and the O2 must not have realized he was following trends. When was Prince following trends. When he did rap he went out found his own rapper and did not have him do rap in a traditional manner.

He has a hugh catalogue do yourself a favor and educate yourself.

.

Most of the millions who went to Musicology were only interested in '80s nostalgia.

.

I didn't realize Tony M was such an innovator!

.

Yes, including Tony and other hip hop elements was entirely playing 'catch up' with the evolving trends in pop music. He become a follower in that regard.

luvgirl said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I said in the 1980s the bands were a huge part of the scene. I'm not talking about people remembering or not remembering later. I'm talking about in the 80s the bands were a huge part of the visual scene. Later on in the 90s and 2000s not so much

I was there too, the image and whose who was very exciting, I mean that the full scene surrounding Prince did have an impact and people were interested. Not just his band members but his protege groups. That is why that period was so exciting. The 1999 tour Vanity 6 the Time Prince (and the noituloveR) Jill Jones

same with the PR era with Prince & the Revolution, Sheila E and band, Jerome Benton etc

the Parade era Prince & the Revolution, Sheila E Eddie M the band the Family Mazarati

the SOTT period the band, Madhouse(even with their limited exposure)

After the 80s Prince could easily have just put the people in black outfits and kept them in the back

The bands after overall didn't have the same visual musical Prince reflection that drew interest.
People were still excited when we say Morris Day & Jerome Sheila E Wendy Lisa Eric Leeds join him though.

Oh ok you are correct in that regards. The whole scene, including Vanity, The Time, and The Rev's did bring a level of visual excitement to that era. I would even go as far as to say that the Rev's were a tad bit more hip than NPG, lol.. Prince wasn't interested in that kind of hip anymore though. It would have been easy to find another band with the kind of style as The Revolutions but he wanted to go the RNB route. Prince never stayed with one era for too long. [Edited 11/2/16 6:55am]

Yeah, I've read from people who say the look and style never matter that it was always only about the music. And my reply is, then you don't know Prince, because the look and style always went hand in hand with the music.

I bored of the suites worn mostly in the 2000s and was happy he returned to more outrageous and futurist yet 1700's and Victorian styles.

.

Yep hip in the 80s and then the 90s it wasn't hip, but the change of times from 80s 2 the 90s was a visually weird time at times for Prince.

.

I don't think he could have easily found another band(s)of that style though. Because people(we all are) too unique. Plus Prince had started listening to too many people outside of his camp and critics and I think it affected a lot of the music and vision. Funny though, nothing about the 87 88 89 period was 'RnB' route. It was still very much a Purple Music thing. GB if the band didn't split, would have been a 'Lovesexy' extension. I still wonder what that movie would have been like with the original players involved.

Yep the era's evolved and changed album to album, but always had a connection to the previous, in the 80s. the 90s was a whole new vibe and I would say 1991-1994 meshed together. The Gold experience took on a whole new thing. Emancipation NPS had a mellower look. I loved the Rave look but the music was so so...