BartVanHemelen said:

hollywooddove said:

.

I'm not joking. Look up why NPGQ was shelved; it's in Mobeen Azhar's book.

Of all the garbage Prince books out there, this one looks as though it may be worth a read. And I wasn't laughing in joke of what you said, it's more of.... yeah, it's probably true but isn't it crazy.

BartVanHemelen said:

rogifan said:

ladygirl99 said: Around here it seems everyone is suspect.

.

Considering the shitfest that the Tribute concert turned into I don't see why anyone would trust Londell to organise a piss-up in a brewery. I've always felt his reputation was waaaay overrated; Prince "getting out" of his WBR deal had far more to do with Mo Ostin being a nice guy than with Londell being a savvy lawyer.

Well people seemed to enjoy the shitfest concert that you did not even attend but I know that would not stop you from commenting.

Funny I remember reading that many people at WB were livid that Prince got out of the deal and Londell went on to do pretty well for himself after pulling this transaction off. It is possible that he knows nothing about concert promotion but he is an attorney I do not think Prince's family can handle the business arrangements for getting the music out without the assistance of an attorney and I do not think it should be some fan.

If Breamer does not think that Mr. McMillian ( he is a grown man and should be addressed by his last name) is doing a good job they can give him his walking papers in November.

smoothcriminal12 said:

rogifan said:

smoothcriminal12 said: What has happened?

His vault and everything being shopped aroun for eventual commercial release. It just doesn't feel right yet.

Really if it is not commercially released how will get to hear it? Taxes have to be paid people.

“Even today, as a 35-year-old man, when I’m in situation with work, or personal life, I ask, what would Prince do?” Mobeen said. “And I think that’s a question we can all ask ourselves. What would Prince do?"

just do it as a crustal ball thing..take orders before pressing

luvsexy4all said:

just do it as a crustal ball thing..take orders before pressing

In the end they could do just that. The estate has the product no cost involved at all and a fan base ready to buy. I would pay go money for a deluxe box set.

laurarichardson said:

I'm having an argument /discussion with a person about this very thing. They refuse to believe the vault is for sale and if it were it would be worth billions...BILLIONS?

I am trying to explain to this person that IF it is not yet for sale, that at some point it will have to be. There are bills to pay afterall. That being said...how crazy does one have to be to believe that this vault, Prince's vault of unreleased music, would have to be worth BILLIONS? I mean the state of Minnesota estimates the estate to be worth $100 and $350 million. If it were in fact worth much more why would they lowball themselves out of this huge amount of money?

Answer: They wouldn't!

This is all nuts. The material needs to be out out in whatever way the estate deems fit. There is so much, supposedly, that a "box set or whatever wouldn't even scratch the surface. We are talking (modestly I might add" about maybe 500+ studio tracks and a fuckload of live stuff. On a generous release schedule of even one every 6 months, that would be 20 releases of 25 songs. That's 10 years for just the studio stuff. Most of us will not live long enough for it all to be released...it'd be a very very LONG time to get it all out there. Just my opinion but damn...

It reminds me of shows like this.

4anothertime said:

I'm having an argument /discussion with a person about this very thing. They refuse to believe the vault is for sale and if it were it would be worth billions...BILLIONS?

I am trying to explain to this person that IF it is not yet for sale, that at some point it will have to be. There are bills to pay afterall. That being said...how crazy does one have to be to believe that this vault, Prince's vault of unreleased music, would have to be worth BILLIONS? I mean the state of Minnesota estimates the estate to be worth $100 and $350 million. If it were in fact worth much more why would they lowball themselves out of this huge amount of money?

Answer: They wouldn't!

This is all nuts. The material needs to be out out in whatever way the estate deems fit. There is so much, supposedly, that a "box set or whatever wouldn't even scratch the surface. We are talking (modestly I might add" about maybe 500+ studio tracks and a fuckload of live stuff. On a generous release schedule of even one every 6 months, that would be 20 releases of 25 songs. That's 10 years for just the studio stuff. Most of us will not live long enough for it all to be released...it'd be a very very LONG time to get it all out there. Just my opinion but damn...

It is not going to be worth billions but it would make know sense to sell it. Prince already has a lable in place just keep the imprint and work with a record lable to distrubute and market.

If a major lable buys it they will just remix with rappers or whoever is popular at the moment. No There is no why the industry could resit fucking with his music and if they don't make their money immediatly they will just stick in some vault to never be heard. Plus I fear some of his rauncheir stuff will never see the light of day because younger people are so conservative about sex.

The low figure makes me think of marketing, distrubution, or licensing deal of some sort because 35 million is not going to solve their tax issues and they still have a lot of real estate to move.

[Edited 10/14/16 10:55am]

laurarichardson said:

4anothertime said:

I'm having an argument /discussion with a person about this very thing. They refuse to believe the vault is for sale and if it were it would be worth billions...BILLIONS?

I am trying to explain to this person that IF it is not yet for sale, that at some point it will have to be. There are bills to pay afterall. That being said...how crazy does one have to be to believe that this vault, Prince's vault of unreleased music, would have to be worth BILLIONS? I mean the state of Minnesota estimates the estate to be worth $100 and $350 million. If it were in fact worth much more why would they lowball themselves out of this huge amount of money?

Answer: They wouldn't!

This is all nuts. The material needs to be out out in whatever way the estate deems fit. There is so much, supposedly, that a "box set or whatever wouldn't even scratch the surface. We are talking (modestly I might add" about maybe 500+ studio tracks and a fuckload of live stuff. On a generous release schedule of even one every 6 months, that would be 20 releases of 25 songs. That's 10 years for just the studio stuff. Most of us will not live long enough for it all to be released...it'd be a very very LONG time to get it all out there. Just my opinion but damn...

It is not going to be worth billions but it would make know sense to sell it. Prince already has a lable in place just keep the imprint and work with a record lable to distrubute and market.

If a major lable buys it they will just remix with rappers or whoever is popular at the moment. No There is no why the industry could resit fucking with his music and if they don't make their money immediatly they will just stick in some vault to never be heard. Plus I fear some of his rauncheir stuff will never see the light of day because younger people are so conservative about sex.

The low figure makes me think of marketing, distrubution, or licensing deal of some sort because 35 million is not going to solve their tax issues and they still have a lot of real estate to move.

[Edited 10/14/16 10:55am]

It's the raunchier stuff I hope that does find it's way out...there is no reason to pretend that side of him didn't exist when that side of him was the one that brought so many to his music to begin with. Kids today

Ingela said:

There is a lot value in the vault material. Especially if all those live shows are well recorded. I for one would pay good money for them and they would do well on streaming services. They would also add a lot to his status among younger fans. Whatever else is there would be great as compendiums to remastered albums as bonus material on a second album that documents that particular era. Then there are all the box sets whoever the choose to compile the material. For a record company, a catalog of music is their long term music stream in aggregate to all the other acts they have. To one artist like Prince, it was a nice stream of money but they had to tour or license the material to meet the living standards they are accustomed to. So the best hands for this material is a big music holding. They know how to manage and preserve the long term value of their investments. The family hasn't a clue. That's not an insult, as none of us here other than those of you here who are record executives know jack either.

That sounds nice but who's to say that a big record company is even interested in doing box sets and what not on unreleased material. (they sure weren't interested or had financial faith in fans concerning the memorial) I can't help but think that the choicer stuff will just be divided up and handed off to the more lucrative artist, since the bottom line for a big corp is to make money. A Prince song or two on a popular artist could very easily right now make money especially with the newer fans. Then a album or 2, a concert or 2 put on DVD sold to the hardcore fans of Prince stuff then the rest sent to the garbage.

luvsexy4all said:

just do it as a crustal ball thing..take orders before pressing

With the orders still on post it notes??

Ingela said:

There is a lot value in the vault material. Especially if all those live shows are well recorded. I for one would pay good money for them and they would do well on streaming services. They would also add a lot to his status among younger fans. Whatever else is there would be great as compendiums to remastered albums as bonus material on a second album that documents that particular era. Then there are all the box sets however they choose to compile the material. For a record company, a catalog of music is their long term money stream in aggregate with all the other acts they have. To one artist like Prince, it was a nice stream of money but they had to tour or license the material to meet the living standards they are accustomed to. So the best hands for this material is a big music holding company like a record company. They know how to manage, preserve and execute album launches for the long term value of their investments. They have an entire infrastructure set of just for that exact business, with the proper lawyers and staf with all the expertise and capital required for it. The family hasn't a clue. That's not an insult, as none of us here other than those of you here who are record executives know jack either. [Edited 10/14/16 11:08am]

A big company needs to be involved to market and distrubute the material nothing else.

SquirrelMeat said:

luvsexy4all said:

just do it as a crustal ball thing..take orders before pressing

With the orders still on post it notes??

I got my Crystal Ball from Best Buy with no problems.

morningsong said:

Ingela said:

There is a lot value in the vault material. Especially if all those live shows are well recorded. I for one would pay good money for them and they would do well on streaming services. They would also add a lot to his status among younger fans. Whatever else is there would be great as compendiums to remastered albums as bonus material on a second album that documents that particular era. Then there are all the box sets whoever the choose to compile the material. For a record company, a catalog of music is their long term music stream in aggregate to all the other acts they have. To one artist like Prince, it was a nice stream of money but they had to tour or license the material to meet the living standards they are accustomed to. So the best hands for this material is a big music holding. They know how to manage and preserve the long term value of their investments. The family hasn't a clue. That's not an insult, as none of us here other than those of you here who are record executives know jack either.

That sounds nice but who's to say that a big record company is even interested in doing box sets and what not on unreleased material. (they sure weren't interested or had financial faith in fans concerning the memorial) I can't help but think that the choicer stuff will just be divided up and handed off to the more lucrative artist, since the bottom line for a big corp is to make money. A Prince song or two on a popular artist could very easily right now make money especially with the newer fans. Then a album or 2, a concert or 2 put on DVD sold to the hardcore fans of Prince stuff then the rest sent to the garbage.

Exactly, big companies are interested in a quick return of their money. If they get a hold of this stuff most of it will just sit.

laurarichardson said:

SquirrelMeat said:

With the orders still on post it notes??

I got my Crystal Ball from Best Buy with no problems.

Which I think proves a point. When the full set was managed by the estate, the pre-order was an absolute disaster. When they handed distribution of the smaller retail set to professionals it went without a hitch.

I don't think they'll make money on CDs, streaming, etc. The money is in the music publishing rights and licensing. Devoted fans will buy boxed sets of music, videos and concerts. 15 to 20-year-old kids aren't Prince fans by and large; they don't know him. They won't be getting those boxed sets for Christmas. The marketing gods have to come up with packages that will sell. His music has to be in clubs and bars and anywhere with music people congregate ... He needs to go viral ...

laurarichardson said:

morningsong said:

That sounds nice but who's to say that a big record company is even interested in doing box sets and what not on unreleased material. (they sure weren't interested or had financial faith in fans concerning the memorial) I can't help but think that the choicer stuff will just be divided up and handed off to the more lucrative artist, since the bottom line for a big corp is to make money. A Prince song or two on a popular artist could very easily right now make money especially with the newer fans. Then a album or 2, a concert or 2 put on DVD sold to the hardcore fans of Prince stuff then the rest sent to the garbage.

Exactly, big companies are interested in a quick return of their money. If they get a hold of this stuff most of it will just sit.

I'd like to see the evidence that the big companies are interested in appeasing Prince fans, so far I've seen zilch.

morningsong said:

morningsong said:

laurarichardson said:

Exactly, big companies are interested in a quick return of their money. If they get a hold of this stuff most of it will just sit.

I'd like to see the evidence that the big companies are interested in appeasing Prince fans, so far I've seen zilch.

Sadly, I agree. Unless the long term view kicks in, there's nothing much to hope for.

SquirrelMeat said:

Ingela said:

morningsong said:

That sounds nice but who's to say that a big record company is even interested in doing box sets and what not on unreleased material. (they sure weren't interested or had financial faith in fans concerning the memorial) I can't help but think that the choicer stuff will just be divided up and handed off to the more lucrative artist, since the bottom line for a big corp is to make money. A Prince song or two on a popular artist could very easily right now make money especially with the newer fans. Then a album or 2, a concert or 2 put on DVD sold to the hardcore fans of Prince stuff then the rest sent to the garbage.

Big companies involved in the music industry are not stupid, they've been managing all their catalog artist for years and want to maximize their profits, but don't want to oversaturate the market. They deal legacy artists all the time and have to have a modicum of respect for their work or else they wouldn't have any clients or be able to stay in business. Let's remember that's their one and one job, and they hire the best talent they can afford. I honestly think, without any hesitation that that's the best place for them. With the people who are experts in the field. I would love For them to head back to Warner Brothers as that's where he started and was his record label home for most of his life. [Edited 10/14/16 11:36am]

Sure of THEIR big money making artist, but Prince isn't their's anymore. Getting his stuff at bargain basement prices? ALL of it. Sounds like the same crap that happens on those storage war shows, they pick out a few items they think have the biggest potential and maximize it's value, make more than they spend on those few items and dump the rest. Talking about what they have the capacity to do versus what they have shown williness to do is just wishful thinking in my mind. Proof is in what you see them actually do. Hell, it looks like even MTV will show all of us what it thinks of it's veteran artist, and they are very invested to the big corps.

rogifan said:

SquirrelMeat said:

morningsong said:

laurarichardson said:

BartVanHemelen said:

.

Considering the shitfest that the Tribute concert turned into I don't see why anyone would trust Londell to organise a piss-up in a brewery. I've always felt his reputation was waaaay overrated; Prince "getting out" of his WBR deal had far more to do with Mo Ostin being a nice guy than with Londell being a savvy lawyer.

Well people seemed to enjoy the shitfest concert that you did not even attend but I know that would not stop you from commenting.

.

Let's see: it was in limbo for months until someone decided to man up and get some professionals in there. Then it was downsized from 55,000 seats to 17,000 seats. Then the line-up was less than impressive. Then half of the big names fell through mere days before the concert.

.

From what I gather the concert was very much a stop-start affair, it could have done with some trimming, several of the younger artists (Jessie J and that talent show singer) were out of their league, and half the audience left long before the end.

.

But other than that it was a great success.

BartVanHemelen said:

rogifan said:

SquirrelMeat said:

Prince himself admitted that making money from albums these days was getting near impossible. He was going for one off pay deals with publications. The CD's he released since then did not sell well.

His estate was kept in business by touring, much like many legacy acts today.

$35 million sounds reasonable, depending exactly what is on offer. Remastered classic albums tend to sell in the region of 10,000 to 20,000 copies, and Prince probably has probably 7 of those, tops. Re-releases / remasters of the other 32 will be niche in sales terms.

Do the maths on those numbers at 50% wholesale cost and its not huge.

The real estate worth is in the real estate followed by the royalty payments of the hits.

So when people throw out this $300m estate figure what is that based on if his music is only worth $35m? Sony bought out MJ's 50% stake in the Sony/ATV publishing for $750m. Part of the reasons Prince albums didn't sell as much post WB is distribution. Right now there's 20 years worth of music that the only place you can buy it is Tidal. And until earlier this year even Tidal didn't have a lot of these albums. Most people listen to music on streaming services like Spotify, Music and Google Play and purchase albums via iTunes. Having to buy stuff from Tidal and then figure out how to merge it with your other music library is a pain and a lot of people won't go through the effort. If they don't see it on iTunes they assume it doesn't exist. I would like to see the Estate get h8s music on as many platforms as possible.

Of course none of us know the estate value at the moment, but my bet is its nowhere near $300m. Celebrity estates are always trumped up in the press, much like the contract figures for deals (Prince's $100m deal in 93 as an example). We hear all the time about celebrities who go bankrupt, when they were being touted as being worth tens or hundreds of millions. It doesn't take long for a large estate to hemorrhage money.

For a start I would guess that the estate cashflow is was almost non existent. Prince was frequently late with bills and no album had shifted any significant numbers in 12 years. I would say he was far from broke, but nothing was liquid. It wouldn't surprise me if the Piano & a Microphone tour was a short term income generator, with good low overheads. Prince was very good at bringing well paid gigs in when he needed to (including private shows). But equally, his personal overheads were always very large, from jets to security and he was happy to give money away and help good causes, and I don't think he was the type to do it for tax breaks.

The sales around the time of his death are highly likely to be the career peak. So if we look at his pre tax earnings from Oct 1st 2015 to Oct 1st 2016, its $25m. That is a time period where he had high yeald concert earnings, a 4000% spike in record sales and a similar spike in airplay royalties. It won't ever get any higher.

Remembering that its pre tax gross, in an exceptional year. £25m, before the estate running costs and taxes. I bet legal bills alone have swallowed the last remaining cash flow. That would explain the rush to monitize the estate that we are seeing.

Beyond the limited real estate, that of course leave the music. The main reason MJ's estate and earnings are worth so much is because of his investment in the huge publishing house, not his own royalties. He invested very well (ironically on Paul McCartneys advice).


There is value in the music, but retrospective catalogue sales are much lower than people imagine, even for the likes of Pink Floyd or Springsteen. Anyone outside of the estate looking to profit from the vault is going to want a return on investment, and that would usually be between 3 and 10 time the investment value.

If Prince sales, at a modern day peak (including touring) brought in £25m pre tax, then any potential purchaser would be looking at less that half of that on a good year, pre tax and more importantly, pre cost of sales.

A good indicator would be the 2012 sale of the Elvis estate. The entire catalogue, image rights and the real cash cow, Graceland Holdings fetched $125m. I would argue the Elvis estate holds far greater value as its a time proven institution in its own right.

The other factor in its value will be how they sweat the asset. Musicals, Circus De Soleil, adverts. Its questionable how marketable Prince would be as a commercial product, and how the fans would take to it if he was sold in that manner.


Only time will tell.