CooperC62057 said:

cloveringold85 said:

CooperC62057 said:

"…The ME report clearly states "self-administered". P took the tablet he believed to be an opiate. Why he was taking them remains an unknown. How long he had been taking them remains an unknown. Was there some terminal illness existing remains an unknown. My mind will remain open to all possibilities and saying that, I read everyone's input with interest. However it ended up that this tablet contained fentanyl and who supplied/provided it, may justice be brought upon them. I do take issue with an earlier statement in the thread - no one is trying to make P the poster boy for drug addiction. That being said, we, as his army, if we can bring awareness to the dangers of opiate addiction to just one person and save them or their loved ones from suffering then it is worth whatever we need to do. I am all for those of us who wish to do so joining forces. Perhaps we should have our own thread to discuss this theory and course of action away from the thrashing of those who are not open minded to others points of view?…"

"…Cooper: I totally agree with you. We don't have all the facts, and the death of Prince is still an ongoing homicide investigation, and we will probably keep getting fed tidbits for a while. Things do get heated here sometimes, but I think it's only because we love Prince and are passionate about finding the truth about what happened to him. Prince did not like drama and there is no need for fighting here; we all have our own strong opinions and we should just respect one another. I'm not saying you, but just in general here in this forum. I think we can all use our energies, in a positive way, towards seeking the truth. That is what I want…"

"…What we do know for a fact is that Prince died of a deadly cocktail of illegal Fentanyl that was laced with other deadly drugs. I entrust the authorities to leave no stone unturned, and I appreciate all of their efforts and hard work on finding the answers…"

"…Just my thoughts…"

"…Agreed, cloveringold85. I am a peaceful person who hates drama but I have to say that there are times here when I just have to walk away for a breath of fresh air. God grant me the serenity to remain calm, cool and collected…"

I do that too, CooperC62057.

There's another trick that I find very super helpul — which if I recall correctly, you sort of alluded to recently.

To maintain my composure in the shit.show that this thread can deterioarate into sometimes, I have successfully trained my eyes to defocus as I scroll past certain usernames and/or avatars.

Works wonders as the next best thing to the much-needed "ignore user" feature that this forum sorely lacks.

Nooriginalusername said:

laurarichardson said:

Here we go. I never said I was an expert on anything. I can read and the research is out there on this topic.

“Were you personally part of these research trials? I spent over 10 years in the field, am licensed by two states in multiple areas-including substance abuse and addiction treatment-and spent a majority of my time directly working in opiate abuse/addiction and have personally conducted and participated in many of these so called "research" studies, so I might happen not to be a troll and actually know a few things. BTW-I'm also a huge Prince fan I am not going into a medical presentation on opiate receptors and how the binder in the brain works to develop tolerance.”

I don’t have to be a part of a research trail to be able to read about them. Are you a doctor because you sound like a licensed substance abuse counselor which is not a medical doctor. Because some medical doctors are backing away from prescribing pain meds for the long haul due to the long term side effects and people becoming severely addicted.

I don’t care about the receptors in the brain the problem in a nutshell is that these pain meds can cause long term damage and many doctors don’t believe they should be used for pain management at all. If you are an addiction counselor you are dealing with people who are hooked and if doctors keep giving out these pills it keeps you employed.

“What I will say, if any of you have taken a statistics class in high school or beyond, you know that any research can be manipulated to produce the desired outcome.”

Yes, I have taken a statistics course and if you are implying that data is being manipulated to stop the wide spread use of pain pills the question would be why. Who is manipulating the data? Big Pharma wants to stay in the business of selling pain meds so that are not manipulating the data. So who is doing this? Right now the lawsuits and deaths are out there to back up what I am saying as this is becoming an epidemic. We are not talking about people using pain meds for recreation we are talking about people getting this stuff from their doctor and being over prescribed.

“Yes, people can experience a severe medical issue but 99% of the time it is because there is a coexisting medical condition. If you are taking massive amounts of acetaminophen AND abusing alcohol, you can end up with irreversible organ damage because the liver is already compromised due to the alcohol. If he were taking high enough doses for long enough to cause internal damage, believe me, it would be obvious to anyone around him. Even when one has a tolerance, the body eventually just shuts down and the person goes to sleep or passes out. One would be barely able to talk, let alone perform a concert and be coherent enough to play an instrument. I don't even know what you are ultimately trying to prove or point out.”

First of all I doubt is 99% of the time and the 1% is important as anyone else. People are getting hooked on these pills because they are being prescribed for something as minor as a broken arm. I don’t think that every person who gets over prescribed is knocking back drinks while taking their meds. You can take out your liver by taking too much over the counter meds with acetaminophen and you don’t have to chase it with liquor.

Did anyone say that Prince was at the end stage of liver failure? He could have very well have been at the beginning or somewhere in the middle of that situation. What we do know is that he did not look good starting in January as those pics from Australia are showing a much different face than the pics from November of 2015. What we do know is that Dr.S wrote him meds that were not controlled substances and that he was bringing him test results the day he died. What we do know is that if he had any organ problems he would have had to stop taking pain meds as his organs would not be able to handle them anymore and we know how hard it is to get off of these meds. He was not in a rehab he was seeing Dr S on an outpatient basis for withdrawals. Why not just go in a rehab and gradually step down? What we do know is that his sister is saying that she knew he was going to die to years ago right around the time he got back his masters and set up the LLC. What we do know is that Dr. S is listed on at least one website as a critical care doctor and that he has no background in pain management or addiction.

All of the things I have listed are factual and the fact that he may have had an illness along with pain management issue are plausible.

“I just think it is wise if we all approach the situation with care and caution and not grab the first article we see to cite as "evidence" to support our personal theory, that makes us no better than the irresponsible journalists who quote "unnamed sources"-they could be their grandma for all any one knows. Peace.”

Yes, because you know I grabbed the first article I saw and just used that for my theory.

You know this because you have ESP? I have done quite a lot of reading on this and I have spoken to medical professionals at no time have I said I am right and everybody else is wrong. I have a theory based on the facts that I believe is plausible. You have come here promoting the use of pain meds and ignoring the damages that they do to people and ignoring the odd things surrounding Prince’s homicide case.

I have NEVER once promoted the use of pain meds, nor have I ignored the damages that they do to people. NEVER once have I ignored the odd things around Prince's death. You clearly have great insecurities, as you are quick to make false accusations, dismiss someone as a "troll" or outright curse them out if they don't join in your hypothesis. What I do have issue with is:

!. People-such as yourself- who have cruelly slandered the name and reputation of other persons by accusing them of murder, without any factual evidence.

2. People-such as yourself- who won't even consider anyone else as legit. unless they agree with you.

3. People-such as yourself- who feel the need to curse at other members of this board and treat others with blatent disrespect, trying to turn other posters against them and creating school yard drama, yet become hyperdefensive when anyone questions your thoughts or asks for evidence. I note you rare provide where you get your information when asked.

4. People -such as yourself-who throw out medical information as fact because they have "talked" to someone or read it and believe that makes them more knowledgable than someone who actually is an educated and licensed professional.

You can dance your happy dance because this is quite possibly the last post or visit I will make to this site. For the life of me, I can't understand how the moderators would even allow the nonsense that goes on here to continue if they hope this would be a respected and legitimate site. Never in my wildest imagination would I have thought that a community of persons who claim to be fans of Prince would come to a site and be so nasty and disrespectful of one another and towards him, his family members and his friends. Clearly few here are interested in intellegent discourse about the Artist, his accomplishments or his music- nor finding the truth about what happened, it's just a bunch of people trying to prove they're right through what ever means they can find somewhere on the web. Good luck eating each other alive.

[Edited 11/1/16 18:37pm]

[Edited 11/1/16 18:40pm]

“have NEVER once promoted the use of pain meds, nor have I ignored the damages that they do to people. NEVER once have I ignored the odd things around Prince's death. You clearly have great insecurities, as you are quick to make false accusations, dismiss someone as a "troll" or outright curse them out if they don't join in your hypothesis. What I do have issue with is:”

You said that the statistical data that I was speaking of concerning the long term effects of pain meds could have been manipulated. I asked you what would anyone have to gain from doing such a thing. Of course you did not answer my question and you seem to promoting the use of pain pills and ignoring the data concerning their harmful and deadly long term effects. You certainly did not do much to acknowledge they exist.

!. People-such as yourself- who have cruelly slandered the name and reputation of other persons by accusing them of murder, without any factual evidence.

I have never used in anyone’s name in connection with P’s murder. I feel the police will take care of that so stop lying.

2. People-such as yourself- who won't even consider anyone else as legit. unless they agree with you.

Not true I actually asked you if you were a medical doctor. With no response from you and I have corresponded with people who are medical professionals on this board and out in the real world. So stop lying.

3. People-such as yourself- who feel the need to curse at other members of this board and treat others with blatent disrespect, trying to turn other posters against them and creating school yard drama, yet become hyperdefensive when anyone questions your thoughts or asks for evidence. I note you rare provide where you get your information when asked.

I have posted links on the topic of the long term effects of pain pill use months ago and the information is easy to find and has been discussed many times on this topic alone. I also post quiet a few other items about Prince on this board a few times a week. Using the search engine you can find things on this board going back to the early 2000’s. I have found over the years that most people don’t read half the stuff on here and then get upset because I don’t go back and find the links or data for them. Time for people to get off their lazy busy and use the many search engines of the internet and this board to find the information. Many associates are speaking on podcast and message boards and not the mainstream media take the time to listen to what they have to say. Go back and look at the first articles the day Prince died and see how so many media outlets were saying terminal illness. I am not going to go back and repost for you.

It is not disrespectable for me to defend myself or just call out the trolls.

4. People -such as yourself-who throw out medical information as fact because they have "talked" to someone or read it and believe that makes them more knowledgable than someone who actually is an educated and licensed professional.

I asked you if you were a medical doctor. Are you? Are you more knowledgeable than anyone else on this board? We do not know your background and plenty of other medical professionals have been shoot down so why should you be any different.

You can dance your happy dance because this is quite possibly the last post or visit I will make to this site. For the life of me, I can't understand how the moderators would even allow the nonsense that goes on here to continue if they hope this would be a respected and legitimate site. Never in my wildest imagination would I have thought that a community of persons who claim to be fans of Prince would come to a site and be so nasty and disrespectful of one another and towards him, his family members and his friends. Clearly few here are interested in intellegent discourse about the Artist, his accomplishments or his music- nor finding the truth about what happened, it's just a bunch of people trying to prove they're right through what ever means they can find somewhere on the web. Good luck eating each other alive.

No happy dance. Plenty of other topics on this board about Prince that are fun and interesting. You decided to come into the most difficult topic on the board when people are still grieving and looking for answers and expected to find happy land. We want to know the truth about what has really happened or we would not be discussing it. We would be sticking our heads in the ground and pretending everything is fine and dandy. We are doing what we should be doing in this forum.

Hang out you may learn something.

MMJas said:

Superconductor said:

I've said this a few times before: The most plausible explanation is that Prince was addicted to prescription pain medication and he may have inadvertently played Russian roulette with these illicit pills for some time. His illness was his chronic pain.

.

But unlike other people, he didn't seem to have sought or accepted help or only when it got too late.

.

I can imagine only some people around him would have known or paid enough attention to see what was going on. How can anyone blame them though? He was a victim of his unique circumstances. He made his own decisions and he was a bit idiosyncratic.

.

I posted this before also. What his cousin Chazz Smith said in an interview gives a clue and is very poignant:

"Being free enough to be able to say, 'I'm not doing well today, I'm in pain, can you guys help me? Are you going to make fun of me if I tell you that I am in need, I'm hurting?'" Smith told the station. "That's really a big lesson, that everybody needs to learn."

http://www.iloveoldschool...on/?kkpg=3

.

The whole thing is tragic and we should leave it at that. People should stop making up bullshit theories.

The "Are you going to make fun of me if I tell you that I am in need, I'm hurting?'" bit is quite telling.
Like Chazz is ackowledging Prince's position of knowing all, being all, controlling all, never making a mistake, never one to show weakness and that dependency being a weakness in his mind...

Chazz also backtracked on this in another interview. Like I said before I do not think his family knew everything that was going on with him.

1Sasha said:

laurarichardson said:

Thank you for bring this up again. I am amazed that this asshole attorney can sell crap to the tabs but no one from those same tabs can take the time to find out what a violent and distrubed person Duane was.

He beat up his girlfriend outside of Paisley Park which resulted in a lawsuit, beat up another woman outside of a nightclub, shot a gun at a process server and stole music and put it out on the bootlegg market. He spent time in a mental institution and jail. He is son beat up his wife and turned a gun on himself and commiteed sucide.

Prince is the awful druggy and his insane pretend brother's comments are suppose to mean something.

Did you see that CJ (yes, her) in the Star Tribune has a piece about Brianna, his daughter? She is not letting her piece of Prince's pie go easily. And she is going to write a book.

------

Well we know one pretend family member is a scum bag. No one is interested in a book about her dad so what is she going to do trash her pretend uncle because she can't get money. Pathetic

phatphuk said:

Nooriginalusername said:

laurarichardson said:

Here we go. I never said I was an expert on anything. I can read and the research is out there on this topic.

“Were you personally part of these research trials? I spent over 10 years in the field, am licensed by two states in multiple areas-including substance abuse and addiction treatment-and spent a majority of my time directly working in opiate abuse/addiction and have personally conducted and participated in many of these so called "research" studies, so I might happen not to be a troll and actually know a few things. BTW-I'm also a huge Prince fan I am not going into a medical presentation on opiate receptors and how the binder in the brain works to develop tolerance.”

I don’t have to be a part of a research trail to be able to read about them. Are you a doctor because you sound like a licensed substance abuse counselor which is not a medical doctor. Because some medical doctors are backing away from prescribing pain meds for the long haul due to the long term side effects and people becoming severely addicted.

I don’t care about the receptors in the brain the problem in a nutshell is that these pain meds can cause long term damage and many doctors don’t believe they should be used for pain management at all. If you are an addiction counselor you are dealing with people who are hooked and if doctors keep giving out these pills it keeps you employed.

“What I will say, if any of you have taken a statistics class in high school or beyond, you know that any research can be manipulated to produce the desired outcome.”

Yes, I have taken a statistics course and if you are implying that data is being manipulated to stop the wide spread use of pain pills the question would be why. Who is manipulating the data? Big Pharma wants to stay in the business of selling pain meds so that are not manipulating the data. So who is doing this? Right now the lawsuits and deaths are out there to back up what I am saying as this is becoming an epidemic. We are not talking about people using pain meds for recreation we are talking about people getting this stuff from their doctor and being over prescribed.

“Yes, people can experience a severe medical issue but 99% of the time it is because there is a coexisting medical condition. If you are taking massive amounts of acetaminophen AND abusing alcohol, you can end up with irreversible organ damage because the liver is already compromised due to the alcohol. If he were taking high enough doses for long enough to cause internal damage, believe me, it would be obvious to anyone around him. Even when one has a tolerance, the body eventually just shuts down and the person goes to sleep or passes out. One would be barely able to talk, let alone perform a concert and be coherent enough to play an instrument. I don't even know what you are ultimately trying to prove or point out.”

First of all I doubt is 99% of the time and the 1% is important as anyone else. People are getting hooked on these pills because they are being prescribed for something as minor as a broken arm. I don’t think that every person who gets over prescribed is knocking back drinks while taking their meds. You can take out your liver by taking too much over the counter meds with acetaminophen and you don’t have to chase it with liquor.

Did anyone say that Prince was at the end stage of liver failure? He could have very well have been at the beginning or somewhere in the middle of that situation. What we do know is that he did not look good starting in January as those pics from Australia are showing a much different face than the pics from November of 2015. What we do know is that Dr.S wrote him meds that were not controlled substances and that he was bringing him test results the day he died. What we do know is that if he had any organ problems he would have had to stop taking pain meds as his organs would not be able to handle them anymore and we know how hard it is to get off of these meds. He was not in a rehab he was seeing Dr S on an outpatient basis for withdrawals. Why not just go in a rehab and gradually step down? What we do know is that his sister is saying that she knew he was going to die to years ago right around the time he got back his masters and set up the LLC. What we do know is that Dr. S is listed on at least one website as a critical care doctor and that he has no background in pain management or addiction.

All of the things I have listed are factual and the fact that he may have had an illness along with pain management issue are plausible.

“I just think it is wise if we all approach the situation with care and caution and not grab the first article we see to cite as "evidence" to support our personal theory, that makes us no better than the irresponsible journalists who quote "unnamed sources"-they could be their grandma for all any one knows. Peace.”

Yes, because you know I grabbed the first article I saw and just used that for my theory.

You know this because you have ESP? I have done quite a lot of reading on this and I have spoken to medical professionals at no time have I said I am right and everybody else is wrong. I have a theory based on the facts that I believe is plausible. You have come here promoting the use of pain meds and ignoring the damages that they do to people and ignoring the odd things surrounding Prince’s homicide case.

I have NEVER once promoted the use of pain meds, nor have I ignored the damages that they do to people. NEVER once have I ignored the odd things around Prince's death. You clearly have great insecurities, as you are quick to make false accusations, dismiss someone as a "troll" or outright curse them out if they don't join in your hypothesis. What I do have issue with is:

!. People-such as yourself- who have cruelly slandered the name and reputation of other persons by accusing them of murder, without any factual evidence.

2. People-such as yourself- who won't even consider anyone else as legit. unless they agree with you.

3. People-such as yourself- who feel the need to curse at other members of this board and treat others with blatent disrespect, trying to turn other posters against them and creating school yard drama, yet become hyperdefensive when anyone questions your thoughts or asks for evidence. I note you rare provide where you get your information when asked.

4. People -such as yourself-who throw out medical information as fact because they have "talked" to someone or read it and believe that makes them more knowledgable than someone who actually is an educated and licensed professional.

You can dance your happy dance because this is quite possibly the last post or visit I will make to this site. For the life of me, I can't understand how the moderators would even allow the nonsense that goes on here to continue if they hope this would be a respected and legitimate site. Never in my wildest imagination would I have thought that a community of persons who claim to be fans of Prince would come to a site and be so nasty and disrespectful of one another and towards him, his family members and his friends. Clearly few here are interested in intellegent discourse about the Artist, his accomplishments or his music- nor finding the truth about what happened, it's just a bunch of people trying to prove they're right through what ever means they can find somewhere on the web. Good luck eating each other alive.

[Edited 11/1/16 18:37pm]

[Edited 11/1/16 18:40pm]

This is my response to throwing out medical information. Some of this comes from the Mayo Clinic and NIH.

---

https://news.vice.com/sto...ronic-pain

Mentions studies that are not recommending long term use of pain meds One of which is the Mayo Clinic which has done extensive research on the long term effects of pain meds. Of course there are people and institutions that disagree.

http://jamanetwork.com/jo...le/2579926

Alternatives to pain pills based off of the research that is stating that not all pain meds are effective.

https://www.nih.gov/news-...conditions

Actual article about NIH studying alternatives to treat pain management away from pain meds.

If you look you can find plenty of information on this topic not just on the internet but in medical research journals which you can find through any library system.

I am not going to keep posting whole hordes of articles to back up everything I post because I know the information is available.

I am starting to have problems with arthritis in my back and I have an interest in the research so I can make an informed decision about what I may have to do one day.

It is mind boggling to me that people on this board will not accept the fact that these pills have bad daily side effects and well as deadly long term effects and in some cases may not be helping people at all.

I have never doubted that Prince had a dependency on these pills for real health reasons.

I think that is a bigger and more important story how did he get on this road and what role did his initial hip problems have for him to get on the pills and what effects did these pills have on his health.

Does anyone not find it strange that the media is not interested in this aspect of his story?

I never said anyone poisoned him on purpose but I do believe he was dealing with possible multiple health issues which may have been caused by these pills.

Over the months, there has been some discussion around the accuracy of the ME's report on the cause of Prince's death.
.

In light of that, I thought you might all be interested in the following:

.
This week I attended a two day public health conference. Admittedly, I am in the UK not the USA but nevertheless, one of the speakers was instrumental in the creation of the Death Certification Review Service.
.

He told us that 48% of death certificates required some form of correction; 10% complete re-issue.
.

I think those statistics are quite startling - and surely evidence of the fact that a good proportion of death certificates / reports may have errors and not be quite as accurate as one would like to imagine.
.

It may yet transpire that categorically stating P's death to be a 'pure accident' was erroneous (no, I'm not making the case for murder, or suicide even, just that we may be mistaken in relying too heavily on that particular statement).

.

Dibblekins said:

Over the months, there has been some discussion around the accuracy of the ME's report on the cause of Prince's death.
.

In light of that, I thought you might all be interested in the following:

.
This week I attended a two day public health conference. Admittedly, I am in the UK not the USA but nevertheless, one of the speakers was instrumental in the creation of the Death Certification Review Service.
.

He told us that 48% of death certificates required some form of correction; 10% complete re-issue.
.

I think those statistics are quite startling - and surely evidence of the fact that a good proportion of death certificates / reports may have errors and not be quite as accurate as one would like to imagine.
.

It may yet transpire that categorically stating P's death to be a 'pure accident' was erroneous (no, I'm not making the case for murder, or suicide even, just that we may be mistaken in relying too heavily on that particular statement).

.

If the criminal case goes to trial the full report will become avalible and it is going to be instrumental in the case. So we will soon see actually why the ME came to her conclusion and not have to rely on unamed sources.

Dibblekins said:

laurarichardson said:

Superconductor said:

Dibblekins said:

Over the months, there has been some discussion around the accuracy of the ME's report on the cause of Prince's death.
.

In light of that, I thought you might all be interested in the following:

.
This week I attended a two day public health conference. Admittedly, I am in the UK not the USA but nevertheless, one of the speakers was instrumental in the creation of the Death Certification Review Service.
.

He told us that 48% of death certificates required some form of correction; 10% complete re-issue.
.

I think those statistics are quite startling - and surely evidence of the fact that a good proportion of death certificates / reports may have errors and not be quite as accurate as one would like to imagine.
.

It may yet transpire that categorically stating P's death to be a 'pure accident' was erroneous (no, I'm not making the case for murder, or suicide even, just that we may be mistaken in relying too heavily on that particular statement).

.

You are making a ton of generalisations here. And provide very little context or the original source. Firstly, UK is equal to US? No. Second, 48 percent of death certificates need some sort of correction. Do you mean every second death certificate in the UK has the wrong cause of death on it? Or is it that some other detail had a mistake? Or only some type of death certificates issued under certain circumstances? You are drawing a long bow here that Prince's death certificate might be wrong. So you are insinuating that he may have not have died of fentanyl overdose? But what then? Wasn't murder or suicide either you state. Ok what then? Where is your proof, even a shred of proof for anything you are spinning here. So we rely too heavily on the one and only official record? Why shouldn't we? What shall we do instead? Make stuff up? Oh I forgot we are in the thread where people make stuff up. Just one last question: do all deaths in the UK undergo an autopsy?

.
For heaven's sake - I just thought it was a snippet of information in which people might be interested! Do you really have to be so aggressive and downright rude? I'm not bloody well 'spinning anything'! I'm sharing something I found quite startling and of which I wasn't aware - simply as an interesting point of information which I thought others might find similarly fascinating!

.
Does everything on here have to be posted with a disclaimer about 'spinning' or agendas or anything else??? Or do MOST people have the intelligence just to read what's written and give people the benefit of the doubt, without imbuing it with their own unpleasant way of looking at things? To ME, this was startling statistic which might - or might not - have some bearing on our reading of other nation's death certificates. I made it PLAIN this was about the UK, and I have written down exactly what was shared at the conference.

.
YOU might want to see that as 'spinning' or 'insinuating' - but, believe it or not, not all of us have such a devious mind. SOME of us don't have agendas, you know. SOME of us aren't that way inclined.

.
As always, I have couched my post very carefully, explaining exactly what we MAY wish to consider, and what MAY transpire in the long run. I don't require 'proof' of anything because I am not making a CASE for anything (quite the opposite in fact). I am merely suggesting we MAY want to keep an open mind about all manner of issues, given this startling statistic which MAY or MAY NOT have a bearing on things.

.
Now either be polite and civilised or move on. Good grief!

.

[Edited 11/3/16 6:12am]

[Edited 11/3/16 6:13am]

Dibblekins said:

Dibblekins said:

Superconductor said:

Dibblekins said: You are making a ton of generalisations here. And provide very little context or the original source. Firstly, UK is equal to US? No. Second, 48 percent of death certificates need some sort of correction. Do you mean every second death certificate in the UK has the wrong cause of death on it? Or is it that some other detail had a mistake? Or only some type of death certificates issued under certain circumstances? You are drawing a long bow here that Prince's death certificate might be wrong. So you are insinuating that he may have not have died of fentanyl overdose? But what then? Wasn't murder or suicide either you state. Ok what then? Where is your proof, even a shred of proof for anything you are spinning here. So we rely too heavily on the one and only official record? Why shouldn't we? What shall we do instead? Make stuff up? Oh I forgot we are in the thread where people make stuff up. Just one last question: do all deaths in the UK undergo an autopsy?

.
For heaven's sake - I just thought it was a snippet of information in which people might be interested! Do you really have to be so aggressive and downright rude? I'm not bloody well 'spinning anything'! I'm sharing something I found quite startling and of which I wasn't aware - simply as an interesting point of information which I thought others might find similarly fascinating!

.
Does everything on here have to be posted with a disclaimer about 'spinning' or agendas or anything else??? Or do MOST people have the intelligence just to read what's written and give people the benefit of the doubt, without imbuing it with their own unpleasant way of looking at things? To ME, this was startling statistic which might - or might not - have some bearing on our reading of other nation's death certificates. I made it PLAIN this was about the UK, and I have written down exactly what was shared at the conference.

.
YOU might want to see that as 'spinning' - but, believe it or not, not all of us have such a devious mind. SOME of us don't have agendas, you know. SOME of us aren't that way inclined.

.
Now either be polite and civilised or move on. Good grief!

.

They are just very defensive of their position Dibblekins. Evidence of the accuracy of ME's decisions on overdose deaths in the US has been posted here before. How can an ME know what was in someone's head? The default position is 'accidental' unless there is proof to the contrary. It is often hard enough for an ME to determine the physical cause of a death never mind what a peron was thinking when they took some pills!

The ME's report proves nothing either way but does tell us there was no evidence of suicide. No suicide note, no previous attempts, no friends or family that said he had been suicidal and no consumption of huge numbers of pills. It doesn't tell us whether he had any underlying health issues or what he knew or was thinking when he took the fentanyl.

Superconductor said:

Dibblekins said:

.
For heaven's sake - I just thought it was a snippet of information in which people might be interested! Do you really have to be so aggressive and downright rude? I'm not bloody well 'spinning anything'! I'm sharing something I found quite startling and of which I wasn't aware - simply as an interesting point of information which I thought others might find similarly fascinating!

.
Does everything on here have to be posted with a disclaimer about 'spinning' or agendas or anything else??? Or do MOST people have the intelligence just to read what's written and give people the benefit of the doubt, without imbuing it with their own unpleasant way of looking at things? To ME, this was startling statistic which might - or might not - have some bearing on our reading of other nation's death certificates. I made it PLAIN this was about the UK, and I have written down exactly what was shared at the conference.

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YOU might want to see that as 'spinning' - but, believe it or not, not all of us have such a devious mind. SOME of us don't have agendas, you know. SOME of us aren't that way inclined.

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Now either be polite and civilised or move on. Good grief!

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Why so defensive? I simply asked some valid questions in relation to the statement you posted. I am trying to understand why this is relevant. If you don't explain the context of your statement around the 48 per cent of UK death certificates had some sort of error, the conclusion can be drawn that you are putting Prince's Death certificate in doubt. But Prince's body had an autopsy. It is a very high profile case. These 48 per cent with mistakes, are these mistakes around cause of death or minor things like name or date wrong? Do these 48 per cent refer to death certificates following an autopsy? You get my drift?

I get 'defensive' justifiably - because there are a few posters on here who make a habit of using terminology which has unpleasant inferences about others' intentions and which I, for one, do not appreciate.

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Had you phrased your initial response to me in the same way as the one you have subsequently written, I wouldn't have been 'defensive' and would have happily replied to your questions.

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The presenter to which I referred said 'ALL death certificates' - so I am assuming that would include those subject to autopsy results, yes. He didn't specify the nature of the errors - however, I am assuming, given the figures he utilised, that 38% were minor details as you suggest, whilst the remaining 10% were significant enough to warrant a complete re-issue. From doing some further internet research, it would seem that a good proportion of those 10% were on the basis of 'cause of death'.

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I'm not trying to 'put Prince's death certificate in doubt' so much as highlighting how apparently common it is that mistakes can be made - something which had been discussed at length previously in this thread. It is something we MAY all wish to bear in mind, going forward. Or we MAY NOT - which is entirely the individual's prerogative.

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sunset3121 said:

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They are just very defensive of their position Dibblekins. Evidence of the accuracy of ME's decisions on overdose deaths in the US has been posted here before. How can an ME know what was in someone's head? The default position is 'accidental' unless there is proof to the contrary. It is often hard enough for an ME to determine the physical cause of a death never mind what a peron was thinking when they took some pills!

The ME's report proves nothing either way but does tell us there was no evidence of suicide. No suicide note, no previous attempts, no friends or family that said he had been suicidal and no consumption of huge numbers of pills. It doesn't tell us whether he had any underlying health issues or what he knew or was thinking when he took the fentanyl.

Thanks, Sunset.
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In that case, I'd wager that the US and UK are quite similar in the sense that 'accident' is the default position. And that (publicly-issued) certificates are not obliged to include extraneous details, if they aren't the DIRECT causation of death.
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It seems in the UK, 'natural causes' is another statement made which can subsequently prove to be inaccurate in a statistically significant proportion of cases.
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Superconductor said:

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You concluded your post by speculating that Prince's accidental death may turn out not to have been "purely accidental". That is clearly putting in doubt the official death certificate or ME excerpt that is public. And given this thread is full of wild speculation, you added another one, that the death certificate might turn out to be wrong. Just like that without any evidence other than connecting this 48 per cent number which you haven't explained what it refers to with Prince's death. [Edited 11/3/16 6:46am]

I haven't added a further layer of 'wild speculation'. Please get your FACTS straight: had you been following the thread, you would have seen that the content of death certificates (specifically Prince's) has ALREADY been discussed at quite some length.
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As with some other posters on here, you seem quick to point out that others should be mentioning only FACTS; I would suggest that you need to do the same.
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Incidentally, I don't call highlighting the FACT that 48% of death certificates (in one specific nation, not the USA - where it could be more - who knows!?) contain mistakes, with 10% requiring complete reissue, 'wild speculation'. It's a recounting of FACTS, which may - or may not - have a bearing on things.
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You and others have been adamant we post only FACTS - are you now saying we should only post FACTS if they meet with your approval?
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Quite frankly, I don't wish to spend my time arguing with you (and others) over my intentions. It derails threads aside from anything else. I prefer to take people on face value; if they post something in which I am interested then I will discuss it with them - politely. If I am not interested, seeing their posts merely as something to be dismissed as 'agenda-driven' insinuations, then I leave them to it. I certainly dont make it my mission to lambast them.
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I wish you good day.
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Dibblekins said:

Superconductor said:

laurarichardson said:

If the criminal case goes to trial the full report will become avalible and it is going to be instrumental in the case. So we will soon see actually why the ME came to her conclusion and not have to rely on unamed sources.

Which criminal case?

The homicide investigation may lead to an arrest which may lead to a trial. = Criminal case.

http://www.fox9.com/news/213321412-story

CHASKA, Minn. (KMSP) - The search warrants and accompanying documents involved in the Prince death investigation will remain sealed until April 17, 2017. A court order filed Oct. 20 in Carver County extended the seal that was first requested just days after Prince’s death. That first order expired Monday.

Why the documents are sealed

According to the court order: “Both state and federal law enforcement agencies continue an active, multi-agency investigation into the death of Prince Rogers Nelson, most commonly referred to as Prince. There are reasonable grounds to believe that making this search warrant public could create a substantial risk of a search or a related search to become unsuccessful or severely hamper an ongoing investigation.”

The documents could be made public prior to April 17 in the event a criminal investigation is opened.

Still a very active investigation

The request filed in Carver County court listed several specific reasons to renew the search warrant seal:

“This is a very active homicide investigation regarding a high profile American celebrity, Prince Rogers Nelson, better known as Prince, who died of an opiate overdose.”

“Both the Carver County Sheriff and the United States Drug Enforcement Agency is actively investigating the circumstances surrounding the death of Prince. There are a number of potential witnesses who have yet to be interviewed. Information obtained as a result of this search warrant is not generally known to these potential witnesses or the public at large. This data is important ‘hold back’ information that cannot be released so as to protect the integrity of pending interviews and investigation. The data collected as part of this active and ongoing death investigation constitutes confidential data as classified by Minn. Stat. 13.82, Sub. 7 (criminal investigative data). In addition, law enforcement continues to seek records, documents and other data from across the United States.”

“Premature disclosure of data contained in this search warrant and the fruits of its search could cause potential suspects to flee; result in potential evidence being altered or destroyed; potentially provide an incentive for collusion of testimony between potential co-conspirators; give effective notice such that other suspects are on notice of a potential investigation, surveillance or search; may motivate witness tampering schemes; may compromise potential witness statements if media representatives interview witnesses before law enforcement investigators."

Superconductor said:

Dibblekins said:

Thanks, Sunset.
.

In that case, I'd wager that the US and UK are quite similar in the sense that 'accident' is the default position. And that (publicly-issued) certificates are not obliged to include extraneous details, if they aren't the DIRECT causation of death.
.

It seems in the UK, 'natural causes' is another statement made which can subsequently prove to be inaccurate in a statistically significant proportion of cases.
.

Both of you are perpetuating wild speculation around the circumstances and causes of Prince's death by now questioning the accuracy of the ME death certificate and even the autopsy. With red herrings galore. If it's not suicide or murder then ingesting a deadly dose of fentanyl is an accident. Related to dependence on opioid painkillers and sourcing them from non doctor sources. Why is this so hard to accept?

The pills he took were mis-labled and they did not find the Fentenyl in his system from prior medical test. He never appeared hight to numerous people who worked for him and those that did not work for him. Did not have a rep for being a recreational drug user. I don't think he knew he was taking a deadly cocktail of drugs that were in those pills and the police don't think so either or this case would be closed.

Superconductor said:

Dibblekins said:

Thanks, Sunset.
.

In that case, I'd wager that the US and UK are quite similar in the sense that 'accident' is the default position. And that (publicly-issued) certificates are not obliged to include extraneous details, if they aren't the DIRECT causation of death.
.

It seems in the UK, 'natural causes' is another statement made which can subsequently prove to be inaccurate in a statistically significant proportion of cases.
.

Both of you are perpetuating wild speculation around the circumstances and causes of Prince's death by now questioning the accuracy of the ME death certificate and even the autopsy. With red herrings galore. If it's not suicide or murder then ingesting a deadly dose of fentanyl is an accident. Related to dependence on opioid painkillers and sourcing them from non doctor sources. Why is this so hard to accept?

I'm not in any 'difficulties' whatsoever.
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I like to be kept apprised of interesting developments / issues (in this particular exchange, FACTS- not 'wild speculations' - a misrepresentation you seem determined to perpetuate) and I assumed that others would feel similarly. It's called being 'informed'. It has no bearing on my state of 'psychological acceptance' (at least where Prince's demise is concerned) - but thank you for your concern.
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I'd have liked to say that, from now on, I'd only send interesting FACTS to people via private message - but I fail to see why I should have to do that, to be honest - so I shall continue to post interesting FACTS as I see them; you are more than welcome to ignore them - and for the sake of continuing civility, I'd suggest that you do.
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Now I think the thread has been sufficiently (unnecessarily) derailed so I have nothing more to say to you on the matter.
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Good day!

laurarichardson said:

Superconductor said:

laurarichardson said: Which criminal case?

The homicide investigation may lead to an arrest which may lead to a trial. = Criminal case.

http://www.fox9.com/news/213321412-story

CHASKA, Minn. (KMSP) - The search warrants and accompanying documents involved in the Prince death investigation will remain sealed until April 17, 2017. A court order filed Oct. 20 in Carver County extended the seal that was first requested just days after Prince’s death. That first order expired Monday.

Why the documents are sealed

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According to the court order: “Both state and federal law enforcement agencies continue an active, multi-agency investigation into the death of Prince Rogers Nelson, most commonly referred to as Prince. There are reasonable grounds to believe that making this search warrant public could create a substantial risk of a search or a related search to become unsuccessful or severely hamper an ongoing investigation.”

The documents could be made public prior to April 17 in the event a criminal investigation is opened.

Still a very active investigation

The request filed in Carver County court listed several specific reasons to renew the search warrant seal:

“This is a very active homicide investigation regarding a high profile American celebrity, Prince Rogers Nelson, better known as Prince, who died of an opiate overdose.”

“Both the Carver County Sheriff and the United States Drug Enforcement Agency is actively investigating the circumstances surrounding the death of Prince. There are a number of potential witnesses who have yet to be interviewed. Information obtained as a result of this search warrant is not generally known to these potential witnesses or the public at large. This data is important ‘hold back’ information that cannot be released so as to protect the integrity of pending interviews and investigation. The data collected as part of this active and ongoing death investigation constitutes confidential data as classified by Minn. Stat. 13.82, Sub. 7 (criminal investigative data). In addition, law enforcement continues to seek records, documents and other data from across the United States.”

“Premature disclosure of data contained in this search warrant and the fruits of its search could cause potential suspects to flee; result in potential evidence being altered or destroyed; potentially provide an incentive for collusion of testimony between potential co-conspirators; give effective notice such that other suspects are on notice of a potential investigation, surveillance or search; may motivate witness tampering schemes; may compromise potential witness statements if media representatives interview witnesses before law enforcement investigators."

Did you mean to put "in the event a criminal case is CLOSED?"...because that statement does not make sense. The reason the warrant continues to be sealed is BECAUSE there is a criminal investigation ongoing. Another question is...even if the criminal investigation is still ongoing as of 4/17/17, will the warrants be unsealed?

laurarichardson said:

Superconductor said:

Dibblekins said: Both of you are perpetuating wild speculation around the circumstances and causes of Prince's death by now questioning the accuracy of the ME death certificate and even the autopsy. With red herrings galore. If it's not suicide or murder then ingesting a deadly dose of fentanyl is an accident. Related to dependence on opioid painkillers and sourcing them from non doctor sources. Why is this so hard to accept?

The pills he took were mis-labled and they did not find the Fentenyl in his system from prior medical test. He never appeared hight to numerous people who worked for him and those that did not work for him. Did not have a rep for being a recreational drug user. I don't think he knew he was taking a deadly cocktail of drugs that were in those pills and the police don't think so either or this case would be closed.

No, regardless of whether P knew the pill was laced with Fentanyl or not is neither here nor there in regards to the investigation. Whether the person/persons had malicious intent to supply him with this or not is also a moot point, it would still be investigated as a homicide because ultimately there was a death directly related to P being supplied with the Fentanyl laced "Wason" pill. I'm pretty sure that intent can determine how severe the charges are(?)

CooperC62057 said:

phatphuk said:

"…I do that too, CooperC62057…"

"…There's another trick that I find very super helpul — which if I recall correctly, you sort of alluded to recently…"

"…To maintain my composure in the shit.show that this thread can deterioarate into sometimes, I have successfully trained my eyes to defocus as I scroll past certain usernames and/or avatars…"

"…Works wonders as the next best thing to the much-needed "ignore user" feature that this forum sorely lacks…"

"…I know, right? Eyes wide SHUT! LOL!…"

Eyes wide SHUT! Good one HaHaHaa! I gotta use that

Another tip: I always start on the forum's landing page, so I can see what username is in the Last Post column.

If the username shown in the Last Post for the thread is on My List, I won't even bother entering the thread — until one of the more mature users has posted something.

precioux said:

laurarichardson said:

The pills he took were mis-labled and they did not find the Fentenyl in his system from prior medical test. He never appeared hight to numerous people who worked for him and those that did not work for him. Did not have a rep for being a recreational drug user. I don't think he knew he was taking a deadly cocktail of drugs that were in those pills and the police don't think so either or this case would be closed.

No, regardless of whether P knew the pill was laced with Fentanyl or not is neither here nor there in regards to the investigation. Whether the person/persons had malicious intent to supply him with this or not is also a moot point, it would still be investigated as a homicide because ultimately there was a death directly related to P being supplied with the Fentanyl laced "Wason" pill. I'm pretty sure that intent can determine how severe the charges are(?)

If they thought he knew he was taking a posion pill then it would be a suicide. Case closed. If they believed it was a simple o.d. they might spend some time looking for the pusher but come on six months! People die from drug overdoses every day and police departments do not spend months looking for the dealers. Police departments want to close cases quickly. They don't keep case open unless it is an active investigation with leads. They are looking to arrest someone and I am tired of people blabbering on about how it is going 3rd degree murder. It is still going to be a murder charge and the police are calling it a homicide investigation.

There is some amazing irony going on in here...A poster whose username is a childish mis-spelling of a derogatory term declaring himself the arbiter of maturity...

Whatever next!?

laurarichardson said:

precioux said:

The pills he took were mis-labled and they did not find the Fentenyl in his system from prior medical test. He never appeared hight to numerous people who worked for him and those that did not work for him. Did not have a rep for being a recreational drug user. I don't think he knew he was taking a deadly cocktail of drugs that were in those pills and the police don't think so either or this case would be closed.

No, regardless of whether P knew the pill was laced with Fentanyl or not is neither here nor there in regards to the investigation. Whether the person/persons had malicious intent to supply him with this or not is also a moot point, it would still be investigated as a homicide because ultimately there was a death directly related to P being supplied with the Fentanyl laced "Wason" pill. I'm pretty sure that intent can determine how severe the charges are(?)

If they thought he knew he was taking a posion pill then it would be a suicide. Case closed. If they believed it was a simple o.d. they might spend some time looking for the pusher but come on six months! People die from drug overdoses every day and police departments do not spend months looking for the dealers. Police departments want to close cases quickly. They don't keep case open unless it is an active investigation with leads. They are looking to arrest someone and I am tired of people blabbering on about how it is going 3rd degree murder. It is still going to be a murder charge and the police are calling it a homicide investigation.

My point being that regardless of the supplier's intent, this would be an open criminal investigation, period. Do YOU know that he did or did not take the pill on purpose, knowing it's contents, no...no one does, and regardless of whether he did or not (I'm NOT implying that he did), the result being his death would be investigated, as it is now. IF someone was supplied a pill that results in a death, EVEN IF it was a suicide, it would STILL be investigated, and the suspect would be charged. Look it up

Dibblekins said:

There is some amazing irony going on in here...A poster whose username is a childish mis-spelling of a derogatory term declaring himself the arbiter of maturity...

Whatever next!?

Dibblekins..thanks for the laugh

precioux said:

laurarichardson said:

The documents could be made public prior to April 17 in the event a criminal investigation is opened.

Still a very active investigation

The request filed in Carver County court listed several specific reasons to renew the search warrant seal:

“This is a very active homicide investigation regarding a high profile American celebrity, Prince Rogers Nelson, better known as Prince, who died of an opiate overdose.”

“Both the Carver County Sheriff and the United States Drug Enforcement Agency is actively investigating the circumstances surrounding the death of Prince. There are a number of potential witnesses who have yet to be interviewed. Information obtained as a result of this search warrant is not generally known to these potential witnesses or the public at large. This data is important ‘hold back’ information that cannot be released so as to protect the integrity of pending interviews and investigation. The data collected as part of this active and ongoing death investigation constitutes confidential data as classified by Minn. Stat. 13.82, Sub. 7 (criminal investigative data). In addition, law enforcement continues to seek records, documents and other data from across the United States.”

“Premature disclosure of data contained in this search warrant and the fruits of its search could cause potential suspects to flee; result in potential evidence being altered or destroyed; potentially provide an incentive for collusion of testimony between potential co-conspirators; give effective notice such that other suspects are on notice of a potential investigation, surveillance or search; may motivate witness tampering schemes; may compromise potential witness statements if media representatives interview witnesses before law enforcement investigators."

Did you mean to put "in the event a criminal case is CLOSED?"...because that statement does not make sense. The reason the warrant continues to be sealed is BECAUSE there is a criminal investigation ongoing. Another question is...even if the criminal investigation is still ongoing as of 4/17/17, will the warrants be unsealed?

I just copied and paste what was on the website of the local T.V. station.

See below from MSN a little more clear at least to me.

https://www.msn.com/en-us...ar-AAjoEiw

Authorities apparently won't be shedding any light on the death of music legend Prince anytime soon.

The investigation into the "Little Red Corvette" singer's death earlier this year has been placed under seal until April 17, 2017.

The search warrant for the investigation was due to expire on Monday; however, on Friday, a judge in Minnesota extended the seal "until commencement of criminal proceedings" or April 17, "whichever comes first." ( Means they are looking to move on to criminal proceedings if they have the evidence to do so)

The seal covers the warrant and "all accompanying documents involved in this death investigation, because disclosure of these documents could create a substantial risk of a search or a related search to become unsuccessful or severely hamper an ongoing investigation," the suit states.

The order notes that "state and federal law enforcement agencies continue an active, multi-state investigation into the death" of Prince.

Prince died in April at age 57 at his Paisley Park home in Minnesota of what was found to be an overdose of the opioid painkiller Fentanyl.

His death occurred just days after he was reportedly treated for an overdose of the opioid painkiller Percocet. Prince was found unresponsive in the elevator of the mansion, which has since been converted to a museum honoring the musician's life.

Do you think the ongoing investigation is for grins and giggles? Police departments launch investigations to gather evidence to decide if they are going to bring criminal charges against individuals or groups. Do you think the police would continue this investigation for more than six months continue the seal for another six months if they did not have some leads? If this turns into a criminal investigation and goes to trial the files will be unsealed at that time. I would not be surprised if they could continue to seal it after 2017 even if they have not concluded or moved forward with the investigation.

I gotta say. I'm proud of yall

Not a single person — {not counting the ones I'm intentionally Eyes-Wide-Shutting out} — have tried to twist Chazz Smith's well-informed words around…

Prince's death raises numerous questions about prior health — By Jeff Baenen & Amy Forliti — Associated Press — April 22, 2016:

…Prince's cousin Chazz Smith said he could not comment on reports about Prince's health and would not say when he last saw his cousin…

…“I can tell you this: What I know is that he was perfectly healthy,” said Smith, who formed a band with Prince when they were kids…"

precioux said: