bboy87 said:

Noodled24 said:

With respect, it difficult to label MJ as a Musician because nobody has ever seen him play an instrument live (correct me if I'm wrong, but please don't point to the pepsi commercial and tell me it's live)

You're right that you don't have to be a guitar player, but you need to play something. I find it hard to believe MJ could spend 50 years in the business and never learn to play anything... but he wasn't willing to be seen playing anything.

It's a shame really because he'd have got so much more respect for it. As a beatboxer he's arguably one of the best... that clip where he sings all the different parts to billie jean I still watch that in disbelief that those sounds are coming from his mouth.

He knew some music theory and played piano on a very basic level but definitely not enough to perform on stage with one. If we go by the definition of a musician as someone who performs, sings and writes music, then he definitely fits into that category but he was never an instrumentalist for sure. I don't really think he cared about that aspect tbh

Exactly Mj just needed people to work out his songs. Prince fans discredit MJ for essentially not being prince. 1 playing instruments 2 working alone. MJ took inspiration from walt disney with forming a team A and team B to create the best product possible. He used his beatboxing to skecth out songs and translated it to other musicans. Musican were essentially tools to him to create his work. Playing instruments was a skill he didnt need and deemed unnecessary. That being said is a musican? Yes Is he a talented instrumentalist? No.

heathilly said:

bboy87 said:

Noodled24 said: He knew some music theory and played piano on a very basic level but definitely not enough to perform on stage with one. If we go by the definition of a musician as someone who performs, sings and writes music, then he definitely fits into that category but he was never an instrumentalist for sure. I don't really think he cared about that aspect tbh

Exactly Mj just needed people to work out his songs. Prince fans discredit MJ for essentially not being prince. 1 playing instruments 2 working alone. MJ took inspiration from walt disney with forming a team A and team B to create the best product possible. He used his beatboxing to skecth out songs and translated it to other musicans. Musican were essentially tools to him to create his work. Playing instruments was a skill he didnt need and deemed unnecessary. That being said is a musican? Yes Is he a talented instrumentalist? No.

Again, with respect, a musician is someone who plays an instrument. If you're hiring other people to "do the music" then you're not a musician.

You're saying MJ was a musician but playing instruments was a tool he didn't need. It's like saying Madonna is a drummer because she hired a drummer.

Noodled24 said:

FunkyBrotha said:

And saying Michael Jackson was ' just a performer' and not a musical artist is naive. Have you listened to his home recordings and demos. An artist is someone who creates something out of nothing.. Michael did that many many times. You don't need to be a guitar player to be a musician

With respect, it difficult to label MJ as a Musician because nobody has ever seen him play an instrument live (correct me if I'm wrong, but please don't point to the pepsi commercial and tell me it's live)

You're right that you don't have to be a guitar player, but you need to play something. I find it hard to believe MJ could spend 50 years in the business and never learn to play anything... but he wasn't willing to be seen playing anything.

It's a shame really because he'd have got so much more respect for it. As a beatboxer he's arguably one of the best... that clip where he sings all the different parts to billie jean I still watch that in disbelief that those sounds are coming from his mouth.

One can be a musician without playing an instrument. That would be an instrumentalist. Musician can be broadened to include anyone with musical talent.

smoothcriminal12 said:

Noodled24 said:

With respect, it difficult to label MJ as a Musician because nobody has ever seen him play an instrument live (correct me if I'm wrong, but please don't point to the pepsi commercial and tell me it's live)

You're right that you don't have to be a guitar player, but you need to play something. I find it hard to believe MJ could spend 50 years in the business and never learn to play anything... but he wasn't willing to be seen playing anything.

It's a shame really because he'd have got so much more respect for it. As a beatboxer he's arguably one of the best... that clip where he sings all the different parts to billie jean I still watch that in disbelief that those sounds are coming from his mouth.

One can be a musician without playing an instrument. That would be an instrumentalist. Musician can be broadened to include anyone with musical talent.

I suppose... but then humming, whistling and playing the spoons are musical talents. They're not very impressive talents, but talents none the less.

By that logic all 7.4 billion human inhabitants of earth are musicians. Along with a few cats and dogs from youtube.

Session musicians are just that. Literally nobody has ever used the term "Session instrumentalists"

[Edited 10/12/16 6:43am]

smoothcriminal12 said:

laurarichardson said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

One can be a musician without playing an instrument. That would be an instrumentalist. Musician can be broadened to include anyone with musical talent.

-- This is the reason no one takes MJ fans seriously. You are saying all 4 billion people on the planet are musicians ! Just think about that for a moment.

A musician is someone who plays an instrument or is musically talented. There are 7 billion people on the planet, not 4. Yes, a myriad of people can be musicians to varying degrees of talent (which doesn't mean everyone on the planet is a musician - musical talent does not necessarily mean anyone who can find a beat. That's an absurd assumption). Composition and performance count as musicial talents, and Michael was proficient in both.

If you're talking instrumentalists, you may have a point. But Michael is definitely a musician according to the definition. Now whether or not you respect him as a musician is a personal choice, but he fits the bill, certainly moreso than anyone here.

Noodled24 said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

One can be a musician without playing an instrument. That would be an instrumentalist. Musician can be broadened to include anyone with musical talent.

I suppose... but then humming, whistling and playing the spoons are musical talents. They're not very impressive talents, but talents none the less.

By that logic all 7.4 billion human inhabitants of earth are musicians. Along with a few cats and dogs from youtube.

Session musicians are just that. Literally nobody has ever used the term "Session instrumentalists"

Session musicians is a specific term referring to a specific occupation. By definition, a composer, arranger, or singer can certainly be considered a musician, and Michael Jackson was all three of those. This inane parsing of words conducted solely with the purpose of delegitimizing Jackson is absurd. It's fine if you don't respect his artistry or if he isn't your cup of tea - different strokes for different folks! But it's futile to try and paint him as lesser of a musician.

This is why fan culture is toxicity. Music is not a competition. We are lucky enough to live in an era where we can enjoy both Prince and Michael Jackson - two black musicians who invigorated the Eighties and created some of the greatest music of all time. Isn't that enough? This doesn't have to be some sort of pissing contest - both are great and genius in their own right. Let's leave it at that!

smoothcriminal12 said:

[snip - Take this nonsense somewhere else. Preferably a different forum - M]

RicoN said:

As much as I loved prince and as great as he was his work never resonated like mjs I wonder why? I always felt Mj wrote better melodies hookier songs. Prince was more traditional musically in the funk vein less melodic. What do yall think?

[Edited 10/12/16 9:55am]

RicoN said:

snip

Why do some people still wallow in the alleged subject and can't let it go? He was tried and acquited in a court of law. Even the FBI couldn't find anything to hang him with. Let. It. Go.

purplethunder3121 said:

RicoN said:

snip

Why do some people still wallow in the alleged subject and can't let it go? He was tried and acquited in a court of law. Even the FBI couldn't find anything to hang him with. Let. It. Go.

prince.org will always be prince.org!

dublinproud said:

purplethunder3121 said:

Why do some people still wallow in the alleged subject and can't let it go? He was tried and acquited in a court of law. Even the FBI couldn't find anything to hang him with. Let. It. Go.

prince.org will always be prince.org!

Yep! For better or worse...

purplethunder3121 said:

dublinproud said:

prince.org will always be prince.org!

Yep! For better or worse...

Always worse when MJ is mentioned on here sadly.

heathilly said:

As much as I loved prince and as great as he was his work never resonated like mjs I wonder why? I always felt Mj wrote better melodies hookier songs. Prince was more traditional musically in the funk vein less melodic. What do yall think?

[Edited 10/12/16 9:55am]

I think you need to get your ears checked. Prince was the king of hooks. How many artist have covered MJ songs and how many have covered Prince songs?

I never understood the MJ vs. Prince thing. I loved both their music.

I think prince most melodic songs are

the love we make

question of u

I feel for you

do me baby (this one is really strong melody wise)

little red corvette

beautiful ones

most beautiful girl

cream (although this one kinda forgettable)

Paisley Park

Thats off the top of my head.

I think prince was an overall a better songwriter but mj wrote better pop songs they were just more hooky and hummable. I think thats why his music had more of broad appeal like the beatles just strong hooky melodies.

Never the less two genius in my book they both inspired me greatly.

smoothcriminal12 said:

Noodled24 said:

I suppose... but then humming, whistling and playing the spoons are musical talents. They're not very impressive talents, but talents none the less.

By that logic all 7.4 billion human inhabitants of earth are musicians. Along with a few cats and dogs from youtube.

Session musicians are just that. Literally nobody has ever used the term "Session instrumentalists"

Session musicians is a specific term referring to a specific occupation.

Yes.

By definition, a composer, arranger, or singer can certainly be considered a musician, and Michael Jackson was all three of those. This inane parsing of words conducted solely with the purpose of delegitimizing Jackson is absurd. It's fine if you don't respect his artistry or if he isn't your cup of tea - different strokes for different folks! But it's futile to try and paint him as lesser of a musician.

I'm not delegitimizing MJ as a singer by saying I don't consider him a musician. On the contrary, I think you're devaluing the term musician by applying it to someone who didn't really play an instrument.

It's like me walking upto Miles Davis with my tamboracca, shaking it a couple of times and saying "I'm a musician just like you". MJ was all the things you mentioned, though not really a musician himself as far as I know...

This is why fan culture is toxicity. Music is not a competition. We are lucky enough to live in an era where we can enjoy both Prince and Michael Jackson - two black musicians who invigorated the Eighties and created some of the greatest music of all time. Isn't that enough? This doesn't have to be some sort of pissing contest - both are great and genius in their own right. Let's leave it at that!

It's not about competition. It's about how do you discuss the musicianship of someone when there is little to no evidence of it? If I can't discuss him as a guitarist, or bassist, or drummer or keyboard player or horn player... how do I discuss him as a musician?

It was a very interesting and incomplete discussion. A nice effort.......I give it a 3.5 out of 5. I hope Part 2 fills in the gaps.

[Edited 10/12/16 21:12pm]

Well I think the main issue people are trying to figure out here is if we consider singers musicians. I'm no expert and as such I don't feel comfortable labeling one form of artist one thing or the other while another is not, but I do feel we're devolving into semantics. Arguing whether or not singers are considered musicians is besides the point. They're both talents. Singers and instrumentalists both play music. They both play notes and harmonize and articulate and whatnot. While the voice is an instrument, I think it's a little undervalued because it's often such a natural thing. It's harder to become a good singer than a good guitarist, I think (though I can't say for certain). So I don't think it's fair to overlook MJ's otherworldy main talent just because he was born with it.

That being said, FUCK OUTTA HERE. Watch the Controversy/Mutiny clip from Detroit '86. Ain't nothing funkier EVER been captured on film. And I love James Brown, but Prince breached the third wall in a way only he could. The stars aligned for that dude, with his talent, his work ethic, his creativity and charisma. I love MJ to death but there's nothing he's done that comes close to the thing Prince became on stage. We talking music, in it's purest form, which is live and in front of people, it's Prince and James Brown. That's it. You gotta sing. And you gotta sing and dance, live, every night.

Prince and James will never be touched because they were both narcissistic, workaholic, blessed, maniacs.

masaba said:

heathilly said:

I think prince most melodic songs are

the love we make

question of u

I feel for you

do me baby (this one is really strong melody wise)

little red corvette

beautiful ones

most beautiful girl

cream (although this one kinda forgettable)

Paisley Park

Thats off the top of my head.

I think prince was an overall a better songwriter but mj wrote better pop songs they were just more hooky and hummable. I think thats why his music had more of broad appeal like the beatles just strong hooky melodies.

Never the less two genius in my book they both inspired me greatly.

But Prince could do more than Pop music and you need to listen to some of the things that are in the Vault that are out on line. Everyday I hear something new that blows my mind. The guys that worked on his jazz project are describing the music as being incrediable. Prince was a serious storyteller with the hooks and words to keep it interesting. When he said his best stuff was in the Vault he was not joking. In the next few years people are not going to be comparing these two as musical artist.

No dis to MJ but he was a simple pop song writer and not even in the top 20 at that.

Noodled24 said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

I'm not delegitimizing MJ as a singer by saying I don't consider him a musician. On the contrary, I think you're devaluing the term musician by applying it to someone who didn't really play an instrument.

It's like me walking upto Miles Davis with my tamboracca, shaking it a couple of times and saying "I'm a musician just like you". MJ was all the things you mentioned, though not really a musician himself as far as I know...

This is why fan culture is toxicity. Music is not a competition. We are lucky enough to live in an era where we can enjoy both Prince and Michael Jackson - two black musicians who invigorated the Eighties and created some of the greatest music of all time. Isn't that enough? This doesn't have to be some sort of pissing contest - both are great and genius in their own right. Let's leave it at that!

It's not about competition. It's about how do you discuss the musicianship of someone when there is little to no evidence of it? If I can't discuss him as a guitarist, or bassist, or drummer or keyboard player or horn player... how do I discuss him as a musician?

Exactly

Noodled24 said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

I'm not delegitimizing MJ as a singer by saying I don't consider him a musician. On the contrary, I think you're devaluing the term musician by applying it to someone who didn't really play an instrument.

It's like me walking upto Miles Davis with my tamboracca, shaking it a couple of times and saying "I'm a musician just like you". MJ was all the things you mentioned, though not really a musician himself as far as I know...

This is why fan culture is toxicity. Music is not a competition. We are lucky enough to live in an era where we can enjoy both Prince and Michael Jackson - two black musicians who invigorated the Eighties and created some of the greatest music of all time. Isn't that enough? This doesn't have to be some sort of pissing contest - both are great and genius in their own right. Let's leave it at that!

It's not about competition. It's about how do you discuss the musicianship of someone when there is little to no evidence of it? If I can't discuss him as a guitarist, or bassist, or drummer or keyboard player or horn player... how do I discuss him as a musician?

This is not difficult. If you want to talk about Jackson as a musician, you can talk his skills as an arranger, composer, and vocalist. That alone is evidence of his musicianship. That is how you discuss him as a musician. These three topics alone are enough to fill a book the size of the Bible. I, frankly, would love to hear more talk about Prince as a composer, arranger and producer. I could talk forever about the intricacies in his music, chord progressions he uses and varying arrangement choices that create unique textures and timbres in his songs. There is much more to talking about music and musicianship than just instruments. This topic can be dissected and delved into in depth and at length.

When I hear a song like The Beautiful Ones, I'm more inclined to think about how Prince skillfully uses arrangement and his own voice to create tension, drama and release. I could go on and on about the musicianship of that alone.

smoothcriminal12 said:

Noodled24 said:

This is not difficult. If you want to talk about Jackson as a musician, you can talk his skills as an arranger, composer, and vocalist. That alone is evidence of his musicianship. That is how you discuss him as a musician. These three topics alone are enough to fill a book the size of the Bible. I, frankly, would love to hear more talk about Prince as a composer, arranger and producer. I could talk forever about the intricacies in his music, chord progressions he uses and varying arrangement choices that create unique textures and timbres in his songs. There is much more to talking about music and musicianship than just instruments. This topic can be dissected and delved into in depth and at length.

When I hear a song like The Beautiful Ones, I'm more inclined to think about how Prince skillfully uses arrangement and his own voice to create tension, drama and release. I could go on and on about the musicianship of that alone.

Seriously?

The only folks on the planet who think of MJ is a musician are MJ fans.

LBrent said:

smoothcriminal12 said: