AaronA said:

wavesofbliss said:

LBrent said:

Well, even in the picture of him at the Electric Fetus he looks very thin and his face is gaunt. I just hope in the end he passed peacefully and without pain.l

i do to. the way that woman described respiratory depression it sounds terrifying- like u know ur dying while it happening. like drowning, you can feel ur lungs fill ....it's too much

Your body stops/slows breathing for itself. You have to consciously breathe - but you are getting sleepier. When you nod off you are in big danger. Certainly not like the initial panic of drowning.

rogifan said:

laurarichardson said:

fortuneandserendipity said:

You have issues and you need to calm down. Fentanyl does not preclude safe use of certain other drugs. Caffeine is a drug. So is nicotine. I've just mentioned it but I will reiterate for your benefit. People can survive and function well enough on opiates. Just because you haven't met them or don't know of any doesn't mean they don't exist. Also, you took my comment out of context and ran with it, like you appear to do here often. Congratulations.

For the record I am anti drugs including the psychoactive ones prescribed by doctors. I don't believe they lead to better living at all.

---- I have not typed one thing that is not true the proof is out there and so are the deaths and lawsuits. You compared nicotine and caffeine to pain meds. Nothing else to say about your thought process.

Once again you've taken someone's comment out of context. I've not compared nicotine and caffeine to fentanyl. I mentioned them purely within the context of contraindications to fentanyl. A stimulant like caffeine won't contraindicate fentanyl, and if anything will do the opposite, given its potential to release adequate adrenaline to stop somebody's breathing from slowing too much.

You also conveniently ignored my assertion that stimulants can be used to mitigate the negative effects of sedative-effect drugs, which people do often. You've also said that Prince has taken this particular medication/prior meds for pain purposes only, implying that as fact and everything else as unsubstantiated. But you just don't know because guess what, nobody 'knows', and that may actually be because somebody does know but isn't talking.

It's simply common sense to acknowledge that because nobody's talking, there is something to hide, especially here with so little public disclosure. You seem more interested in believing what you want to believe, rather than facts. So you assume as fact it was merely a pain management problem. We don't know but here's a clue: if I was suffering from pain the last drug I would want to take is a drug 50 times stronger than heroin. Also it makes no sense in light of what we know about painkilling medication. Why would somebody fast track on to fentanyl when there are so many milder alternatives (still strong btw). It makes no sense, but you seem to think you have the answer, which is binary thinking, black and white, absolutist logic.

Good luck with that.

sunset3121 said:

wavesofbliss said:

i do to. the way that woman described respiratory depression it sounds terrifying- like u know ur dying while it happening. like drowning, you can feel ur lungs fill ....it's too much

Your body stops/slows breathing for itself. You have to consciously breathe - but you are getting sleepier. When you nod off you are in big danger. Certainly not like the initial panic of drowning.

that's good to know. simply going to sleep isn'tasdifficult to imagine. still, don'tu know something's up when u start sliding down the wall of the elevator? at which point he would have realized that there no one could hear him if he yelled for help.

RachB65 said:

rogifan said:

Yes I'd love to know the source for this. I wasn't aware that anything from the investigation has been released so how would we know Prince's doctor was treating him for withdrawal symptoms?

Well we knew addiction and pain management specialist Dr Kornfeld was called because of a grave medical emergency to do with Prince and he sent his son on a red-eye to bring Suboxone to b administered by another dr. Is this disputed and wouldnt it all b part of the investigation?

It is strange. Kirk was interviewed and only mentioned he was ill in 2014/15 (he couldn't remember) and needed fluids. P was then seen on 7th and 20th April 2016 by Schulenberg (the critical care Dr), went to the clinic/hospital, had tests done and went to pick up the prescriptions. He didn't look well/agitated. They then called in a pain management specialsit who was sending their unqualified son across country with opiates and left P alone. The son was meant to "stabilize" him?

Prince’s camp contacted him on April 20 because the 57-year-old was “dealing with a grave medical emergency.” He was all set to meet with Prince on April 22 to help him stabilize him and bring him to California for treatment, and even sent his son, Andrew, to Paisley Park on the 21st for a preliminary meeting.

.

It is hard to make sense of it so far. There is such a big hole in the story. Where was he getting his Fentanyl/previous painkillers from? It seemed like Kirk didn't mention this at all - or am I missing something or are they leaving things off the record? He mentioned the hospital trip and fluids back in 2014/15 though.

.

The search warrant said Dr S had seen him twice only so even if he prescribed Fentanyl (for some reason I thought he hadn't) there would have to be a previous Dr who had been esculating the medication levels for P to become tolerant enough to take Fentanyl. So why is there no search warrant for a previous Dr if this is the case - or would Dr S have all the records after only seeing him twice?

.

The alternative seems to be there were no painkillers prescribed. Then either buprenorphine would be used in low doses on an opiate niave patient suffering sudden severe pain or it was to be used to wean him off the opiates he had been taking.

.

If he was seriously struggling to control an addiction from which he had been going through withdrawal (for months if it links in to what the chef said) and still coping with P+M, PP party and cycling around etc, then what happened on the 20th to cause him to go in for tests, get medication from Wallgreens and to call in Dr Kornfeld so urgently all of a sudden. Why after whatever it was would they just drop him off at PP despite being in such a poor state he needs 'stabilizing' urgently before going to Cali. At this point, P OD's (for 2nd time in a week, or is it the 3rd according to this theory as something happened on the 20th - although everyone seemed to have taken OD no 1 very lightly). It doesn't make sense to me.

fortuneandserendipity said:

laurarichardson said:

fortuneandserendipity said: ---- I have not typed one thing that is not true the proof is out there and so are the deaths and lawsuits. You compared nicotine and caffeine to pain meds. Nothing else to say about your thought process.

Once again you've taken someone's comment out of context. I've not compared nicotine and caffeine to fentanyl. I mentioned them purely within the context of contraindications to fentanyl. A stimulant like caffeine won't contraindicate fentanyl, and if anything will do the opposite, given its potential to release adequate adrenaline to stop somebody's breathing from slowing too much.

You also conveniently ignored my assertion that stimulants can be used to mitigate the negative effects of sedative-effect drugs, which people do often. You've also said that Prince has taken this particular medication/prior meds for pain purposes only, implying that as fact and everything else as unsubstantiated. But you just don't know because guess what, nobody 'knows', and that may actually be because somebody does know but isn't talking.

It's simply common sense to acknowledge that because nobody's talking, there is something to hide, especially here with so little public disclosure. You seem more interested in believing what you want to believe, rather than facts. So you assume as fact it was merely a pain management problem. We don't know but here's a clue: if I was suffering from pain the last drug I would want to take is a drug 50 times stronger than heroin. Also it makes no sense in light of what we know about painkilling medication. Why would somebody fast track on to fentanyl when there are so many milder alternatives (still strong btw). It makes no sense, but you seem to think you have the answer, which is binary thinking, black and white, absolutist logic.

Good luck with that.

The words that have glared at me are " grave medical emergency". Those words are quoted from a statement from the Attorney representing the Kornfields. The definition of grave medical emergency (Oxford Dictionary) "unexpected often dangerous situation requiring immediate attention". Why did Kornfield not take action at that time? How was sending his son "overnight" resolving the issue that was going on at that very moment?? I am truly baffled by this. I am not a MD but that surely is not the way that I would handle a grave medical emergency.

From my researching, I also learned that when a patient is given Narcan, their system is cleansed of the opiates and therefore the patient starts going through withdrawals which are pretty bad. It leads me to believe that he wasn't in real good shape the last days. Also, did the Dr.'s that he saw tell him that now if he took ANY meds it would be very dangerous due to the Narcan he had supposedly been given? My next issue is with the very people that were in his inner circle. If this whole scenario is true and there was a grave medical emergency, how could anyone walk away and leave this man all alone in this grave medical emergency?? It just doesn't pass the smell test with me. I don't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers, but I had to vent!!

zenarose said:

fortuneandserendipity said:

Once again you've taken someone's comment out of context. I've not compared nicotine and caffeine to fentanyl. I mentioned them purely within the context of contraindications to fentanyl. A stimulant like caffeine won't contraindicate fentanyl, and if anything will do the opposite, given its potential to release adequate adrenaline to stop somebody's breathing from slowing too much.

You also conveniently ignored my assertion that stimulants can be used to mitigate the negative effects of sedative-effect drugs, which people do often. You've also said that Prince has taken this particular medication/prior meds for pain purposes only, implying that as fact and everything else as unsubstantiated. But you just don't know because guess what, nobody 'knows', and that may actually be because somebody does know but isn't talking.

It's simply common sense to acknowledge that because nobody's talking, there is something to hide, especially here with so little public disclosure. You seem more interested in believing what you want to believe, rather than facts. So you assume as fact it was merely a pain management problem. We don't know but here's a clue: if I was suffering from pain the last drug I would want to take is a drug 50 times stronger than heroin. Also it makes no sense in light of what we know about painkilling medication. Why would somebody fast track on to fentanyl when there are so many milder alternatives (still strong btw). It makes no sense, but you seem to think you have the answer, which is binary thinking, black and white, absolutist logic.

Good luck with that.

The words that have glared at me are " grave medical emergency". Those words are quoted from a statement from the Attorney representing the Kornfields. The definition of grave medical emergency (Oxford Dictionary) "unexpected often dangerous situation requiring immediate attention". Why did Kornfield not take action at that time? How was sending his son "overnight" resolving the issue that was going on at that very moment?? I am truly baffled by this. I am not a MD but that surely is not the way that I would handle a grave medical emergency.

From my researching, I also learned that when a patient is given Narcan, their system is cleansed of the opiates and therefore the patient starts going through withdrawals which are pretty bad. It leads me to believe that he wasn't in real good shape the last days. Also, did the Dr.'s that he saw tell him that now if he took ANY meds it would be very dangerous due to the Narcan he had supposedly been given? My next issue is with the very people that were in his inner circle. If this whole scenario is true and there was a grave medical emergency, how could anyone walk away and leave this man all alone in this grave medical emergency?? It just doesn't pass the smell test with me. I don't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers, but I had to vent!!

still don't make sense to me either, prince, whether he was told or not, probably knew that his system wouldn't be able to handle another big dose of drugs. In any case, i'm sure he was warned, that would only seem about the most obvious thing for the doctors to tell him. maybe he really was terminal and just didn't see the difference between dying on the 21'st or a couple months later. Or maybe he was soo damned hooked that he didn't care. Or maybe he just thought that he was Prince and that he couldn't die, who the hell knows.

PeteSilas said:

zenarose said:

The words that have glared at me are " grave medical emergency". Those words are quoted from a statement from the Attorney representing the Kornfields. The definition of grave medical emergency (Oxford Dictionary) "unexpected often dangerous situation requiring immediate attention". Why did Kornfield not take action at that time? How was sending his son "overnight" resolving the issue that was going on at that very moment?? I am truly baffled by this. I am not a MD but that surely is not the way that I would handle a grave medical emergency.

From my researching, I also learned that when a patient is given Narcan, their system is cleansed of the opiates and therefore the patient starts going through withdrawals which are pretty bad. It leads me to believe that he wasn't in real good shape the last days. Also, did the Dr.'s that he saw tell him that now if he took ANY meds it would be very dangerous due to the Narcan he had supposedly been given? My next issue is with the very people that were in his inner circle. If this whole scenario is true and there was a grave medical emergency, how could anyone walk away and leave this man all alone in this grave medical emergency?? It just doesn't pass the smell test with me. I don't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers, but I had to vent!!

still don't make sense to me either, prince, whether he was told or not, probably knew that his system wouldn't be able to handle another big dose of drugs. In any case, i'm sure he was warned, that would only seem about the most obvious thing for the doctors to tell him. maybe he really was terminal and just didn't see the difference between dying on the 21'st or a couple months later. Or maybe he was soo damned hooked that he didn't care. Or maybe he just thought that he was Prince and that he couldn't die, who the hell knows.

My sister is a Hospice RN. She has given me lots of information on different scenarios and drugs and their effects, ect. I gather peices of the puzzle and try to put them together and BAM there's that one piece that doesn't fit and then I'm back to goose egg. Nothing makes sense.

those were pretty much my words four months ago and not much has changed accept my acceptance level. It'll come out when it comes out. bruce lee died from an allergic reaction to hashish but there was a coverup, several reasons, 1. Hong kong didn't want to be in the middle of any debate about any drugs. 2. Bruce was a hero and they didn't see any upside to encouraging kids to use the stuff and 3. his life insurance policy would have been nullified. so, coverrups do happen, but the info does get out too. doctors who oversaw a previous episode with Lee both have gone on record saying that he almost died not long before he did, from the same thing. Somehow, the officials put it on paper that bruce died from an allergic reaction to the equigesic he took for a headache. Truth usually comes out.

zenarose said:

fortuneandserendipity said:

Once again you've taken someone's comment out of context. I've not compared nicotine and caffeine to fentanyl. I mentioned them purely within the context of contraindications to fentanyl. A stimulant like caffeine won't contraindicate fentanyl, and if anything will do the opposite, given its potential to release adequate adrenaline to stop somebody's breathing from slowing too much.

You also conveniently ignored my assertion that stimulants can be used to mitigate the negative effects of sedative-effect drugs, which people do often. You've also said that Prince has taken this particular medication/prior meds for pain purposes only, implying that as fact and everything else as unsubstantiated. But you just don't know because guess what, nobody 'knows', and that may actually be because somebody does know but isn't talking.

It's simply common sense to acknowledge that because nobody's talking, there is something to hide, especially here with so little public disclosure. You seem more interested in believing what you want to believe, rather than facts. So you assume as fact it was merely a pain management problem. We don't know but here's a clue: if I was suffering from pain the last drug I would want to take is a drug 50 times stronger than heroin. Also it makes no sense in light of what we know about painkilling medication. Why would somebody fast track on to fentanyl when there are so many milder alternatives (still strong btw). It makes no sense, but you seem to think you have the answer, which is binary thinking, black and white, absolutist logic.

Good luck with that.

The words that have glared at me are " grave medical emergency". Those words are quoted from a statement from the Attorney representing the Kornfields. The definition of grave medical emergency (Oxford Dictionary) "unexpected often dangerous situation requiring immediate attention". Why did Kornfield not take action at that time? How was sending his son "overnight" resolving the issue that was going on at that very moment?? I am truly baffled by this. I am not a MD but that surely is not the way that I would handle a grave medical emergency.

From my researching, I also learned that when a patient is given Narcan, their system is cleansed of the opiates and therefore the patient starts going through withdrawals which are pretty bad. It leads me to believe that he wasn't in real good shape the last days. Also, did the Dr.'s that he saw tell him that now if he took ANY meds it would be very dangerous due to the Narcan he had supposedly been given? My next issue is with the very people that were in his inner circle. If this whole scenario is true and there was a grave medical emergency, how could anyone walk away and leave this man all alone in this grave medical emergency?? It just doesn't pass the smell test with me. I don't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers, but I had to vent!!

these 2 posts are what's been running thru my mind since may. there are too many holes in the story and i'm still staring holes thru kirk and meron. u call for help for "a grave emergency" and then fucking leave!! knowing that help won't be there til the morning!! spins my head!!

++

he's at rest now, bless him.

LBrent said:

Actually, as an RN for 34 years, as I've said before in other threads on this topic, I think he was in pain, but it was recent. Possibly a year to 18 months. The pictures from that time period he looks different. Progressively thinner and more fragile. He was covered head to toe, including gloves for his 2015-2016 New Year's performance in St. Barts. That says to me that he was cold. Probably anemic. Multiple trips to WaLgreen's reported by TMZ, including pics of him in the parking lot, but on further investigation TMZ reported that he had not filled prescriptions for pain meds. A gal who is an orger and in similar in size to P reported that she had been on Fentanyl patches for pain and had awful tummy trouble, diarrhea and lost weight because of that. In her case, her doctor tested her and determined that her body metabolized Fentanyl quicker than normal so the medication wore off quicker than normal. All medication is prescribed based on your weight and height. Even at the best health, P was very tiny. He was 112 lbs when he passed. I'm guessing at his heaviest he might have been around 125-130 lbs. For him that's when he was young and had chubby cheeks. If P was throwing up, having diarrhea and losing weight due to all that plus a lack of appetite (he told his chef he couldn't/ didn't want to eat solids food, only smoothies and soups)...so now the original dosage prescribed for him would be too much for him. So, he's having all these embarrassing side effects and being a macho man, he chooses to be alone to preserve his dignity. And, being in pain, he takes his regular dose of pain med, but since the dose is too much because he's weak and has lost weight...he never makes it safely out of the elevator. What bothers me is that I don't r the source of his pain was hip pain. I know recently giving Fentanyl for pain is popular, but I still connect it to Cancer. I think he had a very aggressive/ terminal type of cancer that was discovered too late to treat with anything else but pain medication. Of course this is only my personal opinion based on observant and my own medical training. Jus sayin

This is very persuasive coming from a Prince fan AND a long term Nurse. Thanks for your input and you make a compelling argument. In addition, I remember hearing on the news that doctor who was treating Prince actually showed up to PP with test results the day he passed away. Test results? He may have been suffering from something we haven't heard about. All of this is incredibly sad and tragic.

zenarose said:

fortuneandserendipity said:

From my researching, I also learned that when a patient is given Narcan, their system is cleansed of the opiates and therefore the patient starts going through withdrawals which are pretty bad. It leads me to believe that he wasn't in real good shape the last days.

The Narcan will block some opiate receptors for a short while and kick them into immediate withdrawal and a return of pain (not the picture JH described after the plane - but she wasn't describing an opiate OD either). It doesn't remove the opiate from the system so as the Narcan wears off the opiates will still be there and start to attach back to the receptors. Users for pain managment would then carry on their management regime (below OD levels).

sunset3121 said:

zenarose said:

From my researching, I also learned that when a patient is given Narcan, their system is cleansed of the opiates and therefore the patient starts going through withdrawals which are pretty bad. It leads me to believe that he wasn't in real good shape the last days.

The Narcan will block some opiate receptors for a short while and kick them into immediate withdrawal and a return of pain (not the picture JH described after the plane - but she wasn't describing an opiate OD either). It doesn't remove the opiate from the system so as the Narcan wears off the opiates will still be there and start to attach back to the receptors. Users for pain managment would then carry on their management regime (below OD levels).

Right. My point was the "overdose" was counter acted (cleansed). A good friend of mine is recovering prescription drug addict. He has told me many times how hard it is to fight the addiction. He has said " it's always there itching at him", "sometimes really bad and other times a dull roar". He also said that the "weaning down is sooo hard because all you really want is more". Thus my perseption as stated above that P wasn't in good shape during the last days. I also agree with you as to what JH stated about the plane incident. The "fixed stare" doesn't fit an OD scenario, although I was told by a Health Care Professional that it could fit with a seizier due to a/several ongoing factor(s). Also the description of the situation while at the hospital doesn't fit an OD. There are just too many inconsistencies.

there is a line between what i can reasonably expect to know about prince's life as a fan and a whole lot of unanswered questions i have about how and why he passed.

for me i think i'm better off resigning myself to not knowing all of the details than i would be suffering hours of endless speculation and worry about the details of his passing. maybe some things, we are not meant to know. just my 2c

fortuneandserendipity said:

laurarichardson said:

fortuneandserendipity said: ---- I have not typed one thing that is not true the proof is out there and so are the deaths and lawsuits. You compared nicotine and caffeine to pain meds. Nothing else to say about your thought process.

Once again you've taken someone's comment out of context. I've not compared nicotine and caffeine to fentanyl. I mentioned them purely within the context of contraindications to fentanyl. A stimulant like caffeine won't contraindicate fentanyl, and if anything will do the opposite, given its potential to release adequate adrenaline to stop somebody's breathing from slowing too much.

You also conveniently ignored my assertion that stimulants can be used to mitigate the negative effects of sedative-effect drugs, which people do often. You've also said that Prince has taken this particular medication/prior meds for pain purposes only, implying that as fact and everything else as unsubstantiated. But you just don't know because guess what, nobody 'knows', and that may actually be because somebody does know but isn't talking.

It's simply common sense to acknowledge that because nobody's talking, there is something to hide, especially here with so little public disclosure. You seem more interested in believing what you want to believe, rather than facts. So you assume as fact it was merely a pain management problem. We don't know but here's a clue: if I was suffering from pain the last drug I would want to take is a drug 50 times stronger than heroin. Also it makes no sense in light of what we know about painkilling medication. Why would somebody fast track on to fentanyl when there are so many milder alternatives (still strong btw). It makes no sense, but you seem to think you have the answer, which is binary thinking, black and white, absolutist logic.

Good luck with that.

thank you for appyling Occam razor

[Edited 8/20/16 7:10am]

zenarose said:

fortuneandserendipity said:

Once again you've taken someone's comment out of context. I've not compared nicotine and caffeine to fentanyl. I mentioned them purely within the context of contraindications to fentanyl. A stimulant like caffeine won't contraindicate fentanyl, and if anything will do the opposite, given its potential to release adequate adrenaline to stop somebody's breathing from slowing too much.

You also conveniently ignored my assertion that stimulants can be used to mitigate the negative effects of sedative-effect drugs, which people do often. You've also said that Prince has taken this particular medication/prior meds for pain purposes only, implying that as fact and everything else as unsubstantiated. But you just don't know because guess what, nobody 'knows', and that may actually be because somebody does know but isn't talking.

It's simply common sense to acknowledge that because nobody's talking, there is something to hide, especially here with so little public disclosure. You seem more interested in believing what you want to believe, rather than facts. So you assume as fact it was merely a pain management problem. We don't know but here's a clue: if I was suffering from pain the last drug I would want to take is a drug 50 times stronger than heroin. Also it makes no sense in light of what we know about painkilling medication. Why would somebody fast track on to fentanyl when there are so many milder alternatives (still strong btw). It makes no sense, but you seem to think you have the answer, which is binary thinking, black and white, absolutist logic.

Good luck with that.

The words that have glared at me are " grave medical emergency". Those words are quoted from a statement from the Attorney representing the Kornfields. The definition of grave medical emergency (Oxford Dictionary) "unexpected often dangerous situation requiring immediate attention". Why did Kornfield not take action at that time? How was sending his son "overnight" resolving the issue that was going on at that very moment?? I am truly baffled by this. I am not a MD but that surely is not the way that I would handle a grave medical emergency.

From my researching, I also learned that when a patient is given Narcan, their system is cleansed of the opiates and therefore the patient starts going through withdrawals which are pretty bad. It leads me to believe that he wasn't in real good shape the last days. Also, did the Dr.'s that he saw tell him that now if he took ANY meds it would be very dangerous due to the Narcan he had supposedly been given? My next issue is with the very people that were in his inner circle. If this whole scenario is true and there was a grave medical emergency, how could anyone walk away and leave this man all alone in this grave medical emergency?? It just doesn't pass the smell test with me. I don't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers, but I had to vent!!

[Edited 8/20/16 7:22am]

XxAxX said:

there is a line between what i can reasonably expect to know about prince's life as a fan and a whole lot of unanswered questions i have about how and why he passed.

for me i think i'm better off resigning myself to not knowing all of the details than i would be suffering hours of endless speculation and worry about the details of his passing. maybe some things, we are not meant to know. just my 2c

I agree with this. I am OK with not knowing his private business. I am just not OK with having to hear all the BS from 'sources' especially but also from his F & F that keep pointing everyone in certain directions that leads to folk hunting for patches on him 30 years ago, checking his pupils and suspecting his lollipops. When it goes that way I just can't help but question their easy assumptions. I am trying not to.

rogifan said:

LBrent said: