Is this Joshua Welton guy responsible for the mixes? In that interview that got taken down he was talking about mixing and knowing when you have it right "because the sound just floats" but a lot of these new songs have mixes that sound very amateur, I don't mean just a little bit. I'm talking to the point that you have to adjust your speakers before blowing them out

I feel like taking mixing super seriously is one of the things that would go after years in the industry, especially when it's done in-house. That being said, I do not appreciate nor enjoy a poor mix.

Thizz said:

Is this Joshua Welton guy responsible for the mixes? In that interview that got taken down he was talking about mixing and knowing when you have it right "because the sound just floats" but a lot of these new songs have mixes that sound very amateur, I don't mean just a little bit. I'm talking to the point that you have to adjust your speakers before blowing them out

Please avoid starting threads with phrases such as "let's be honest" or "let's face it", it implies that there is no room for debate and makes you sound like a troll. Not saying you're one, but that's how it looks like and it's not, I'm sure, what you wish.

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I'm no engineer but I find the last records pretty well mixed. I don't like the version of Funknroll on AOA much, but I've always been impressed by the depth of its mix for example. And I'm pretty amazed at the overall sound texture of Phase Two.

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But in fact IDK shit, because as I said, I'm no engineer and I haven't been a musician in 10 years. I think only professional musicians and engineers (maybe you are one, though) are entitled to discuss those technical aspects. "Listeners" who come here and claim they "hear" that a professional musician the standard of Prince and his professional engineers can't mix a record properly sound to me like those orgers who don't play any instrument and say such or such bandmember "can't play" or "can't sing". It's absolutely ridiculous given the level of everyone involved in Prince's production process and bands. It's like being a passenger in a Boeing and saying the pilot can't fly, as if any of us had a clue about the technical aspects of flying. Let's be a little humble for chrissakes...

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Now I'll be happy to read the opinion of those of you guys who are professional engineers or musicians on the OP's topic

Reminds me of that orger who wrote the other day that "Prince needs to take drums lessons"

Such statements are so ridiculously absurd that they can't be anything but trolling and therefore they don't belong on this message board.

[Edited 1/6/16 22:11pm]

V10LETBLUES said:

Ultimately it's all on Prince. I am almost convinced prince's hearing is shot. Half of his newer work sounds good, the other half sounds like he must be losing his hearing. AOA is super annoying and disturbing in sound design alone, and his musical ideas do not sound fully realized. His more organic never tracks sound better, but I think that's mostly because it's harder to make traditional instruments sound as bad as the synth based ones. His vocals are also similarly hit and miss. Off the top of my head these particular tracks made me feel Prince was going deaf for so many reasons. They are disturbingly atrocious in sound design, vocals, mix and overal production. Art official Cage Clouds Breakfast Can Wait Funknroll Fallinlove2nite Million Dollar Show I cannot think of anything else I have ever listened to by a professional artist to sound as bad and amateurish as this. Certainly nothing on the radio ever.

True. Prince's stuff has never been properly mixed and mastered because who would get in his way? 1999, his masterpiece, sounds woefully dull considering the material. His shit has never been given the proper treatment because of that great ego. He should have always had the best in the business mixing and mastering his songs. He overcame it then due to otherworldly talent. Now, his "choices" to run his show fall flat.

V10LETBLUES said:

Ultimately it's all on Prince. I am almost convinced prince's hearing is shot. Half of his newer work sounds good, the other half sounds like he must be losing his hearing. AOA is super annoying and disturbing in sound design alone, and his musical ideas do not sound fully realized. His more organic never tracks sound better, but I think that's mostly because it's harder to make traditional instruments sound as bad as the synth based ones. His vocals are also similarly hit and miss. Off the top of my head these particular tracks made me feel Prince was going deaf for so many reasons. They are disturbingly atrocious in sound design, vocals, mix and overal production. Art official Cage Clouds Breakfast Can Wait Funknroll Fallinlove2nite Million Dollar Show I cannot think of anything else I have ever listened to by a professional artist to sound as bad and amateurish as this. Certainly nothing on the radio ever.

CLOUDS is a good song. Great opening. Nothing special but it's not as BAD as u make it sound VIOLET.

The others... Well they r pretty bad

Actually, the murky sound of 1999 was intentional. It sounds way better on an analog source. Matter of fact, listening to Prince's work in correct conditions implies to have an analog sound chain, from beginning to end. In the eighties, electronic components were taken seriously, and it was miniaturization that killed the sound quality in the end. A microscopic transistor cannot perform the same electrical process than a solid state amplifier weighing several kilograms.

MP3 is of course to blame, it perverted everyone's ears, included mine. The irony is that most consoles and sound processors are working on incredible standards, 192 kHz and 24 bit, allowing for incredible dynamic ranges, and in the end everything gets butchered in 256k rates.

The most interesting palette is to be found on "Groovy Potential". It does not scream innovation, but at least it's an interesting balance, that manages to sound modern while still preserving a natural sound on drums, horns and guitars. I could do without the stupid auto-tuned voice-over-the-phone gimmick.

I would not say it's badly mixed. It's dully produced. The sound palette offers nothing we haven't heard before. The radical production choices found on Parade are long gone.

Listening to Prince requires to be an audiophile, true. Before V10LETBLUES spits one more time on AOA, he'd better question his audio chain, and/or the source of his audio files.

The only distorsion I hear on the whole album is to be found on the 2 last choruses of "The Breakdown", and they're intentional, a way to imply the suffering.
Everything else is impeccable, and manages to be compressed while sounding dynamic, "Time" being the perfect example.

For my ears, some of it is miles better than others. It's utterly ruined a couple of his better songs from the past few years. The breakdown is a great song, but I can't listen to it as the mix is hideous. Groovy Potential isn't much better. Again, I'm no engineer but I expect his hearing is knackered too. His recent London shows (Roundhouse aside) were so impossibly loud, I completely knackered my ears for 3 months (KoKo). His must be pretty toasted. That's the only thing I can think of. Unless he just can't be arsed.

^ It'll take MUCH more than some name dropping to give the illusion you know what you're talking about.

Same Old Love by Selena is a pretty cool track though, I would never have listened to anything by her on my own, thx for the tip.

bonatoc said:

Actually, the murky sound of 1999 was intentional. It sounds way better on an analog source. Matter of fact, listening to Prince's work in correct conditions implies to have an analog sound chain, from beginning to end. In the eighties, electronic components were taken seriously, and it was miniaturization that killed the sound quality in the end. A microscopic transistor cannot perform the same electrical process than a solid state amplifier weighing several kilograms.

MP3 is of course to blame, it perverted everyone's ears, included mine. The irony is that most consoles and sound processors are working on incredible standards, 192 kHz and 24 bit, allowing for incredible dynamic ranges, and in the end everything gets butchered in 256k rates.

The most interesting palette is to be found on "Groovy Potential". It does not scream innovation, but at least it's an interesting balance, that manages to sound modern while still preserving a natural sound on drums, horns and guitars. I could do without the stupid auto-tuned voice-over-the-phone gimmick.

I would not say it's badly mixed. It's dully produced. The sound palette offers nothing we haven't heard before. The radical production choices found on Parade are long gone.

Listening to Prince requires to be an audiophile, true. Before V10LETBLUES spits one more time on AOA, he'd better question his audio chain, and/or the source of his audio files.

The only distorsion I hear on the whole album is to be found on the 2 last choruses of "The Breakdown", and they're intentional, a way to imply the suffering.
Everything else is impeccable, and manages to be compressed while sounding dynamic, "Time" being the perfect example.

Thanx, that was an insightful contribution. However u got me lost with the 128 is better than 256 part. If mp3 320 is better than 256 which is better than 128, how can it be the opposite with recording gear??? Sorry if the question sounds dumb, I really don't know shit about those technical thangs.

databank said:

^ It'll take MUCH more than some name dropping to give the illusion you know what you're talking about.

Same Old Love by Selena is a pretty cool track though, I would never have listened to anything by her on my own, thx for the tip.

No problem.

Now go listen to Good For You. I had to google those tracks to see who were responsible. She is using a lot of producers on her tracks. I give her props for having the sense and taste to use the producers she is using.



I think any new young producer could go listen to the track Crystal Ball, Sign O the Times ( the whole album) Parade, Purple Rain and be educated by worlds greatest producer on how it's done. Prince is the worlds greatest living producer. His newer work takes nothing away from that.

But that producer is not the same as the one the one on his newer tracks.

V10LETBLUES said:

databank said:

^ It'll take MUCH more than some name dropping to give the illusion you know what you're talking about.

Same Old Love by Selena is a pretty cool track though, I would never have listened to anything by her on my own, thx for the tip.

No problem.

Now go listen to Good For You. I had to google those tracks to see who were responsible. She is using a lot of producers on her tracks. I give her props for having the sense and taste to use the producers she is using.



I think any new young producer could go listen to the track Crystal Ball, Sign O the Times ( the whole album) Parade, Purple Rain and be educated by worlds greatest producer on how it's done. Prince is the worlds greatest living producer. His newer work takes nothing away from that.

But that producer is not the same as the one the one on his newer tracks.

The problem is that a producer, particularly in the classic pre-homemade electronic music era sense of the term, is not (can be but is often not) an engineer. Engineers do the mixing, producers oversee the whole recording process.

If the thread is about mixing, we're talking about the work of people such as Susan Rogers, Femi Jiya, HM Buff, Michael Kopplemann, ChronicFreeze and so on (including I guess Josh when it comes to Phase One but probably not Phase Two). It may have changed but as far as things are documented Prince never seemed to have been too involved in that part of the process: he'd give the tracks to the engineer, say mix it, listen to it the next day, occasionally suggest some changes and that's it.

A thread about mixing is not a thread about production which involves the overall recording process and the overall sound of a recording, sometimes from arrangements to mastering.

A thread about mixing is about very specific technical aspects that most of us are not familiar with and you, in fact, have not been discussing mixing at all since you started this thread... even though the thread is about mixing

Therefore I'm sure you can understand my major "WTF?"

^

I know what the thread is about, the mixing as well as everythig in the final mix is of the purview of a producer. The focusing on the mix on this newer work is the least of their problem.

databank said:

bonatoc said:

Actually, the murky sound of 1999 was intentional. It sounds way better on an analog source. Matter of fact, listening to Prince's work in correct conditions implies to have an analog sound chain, from beginning to end. In the eighties, electronic components were taken seriously, and it was miniaturization that killed the sound quality in the end. A microscopic transistor cannot perform the same electrical process than a solid state amplifier weighing several kilograms.

MP3 is of course to blame, it perverted everyone's ears, included mine. The irony is that most consoles and sound processors are working on incredible standards, 192 kHz and 24 bit, allowing for incredible dynamic ranges, and in the end everything gets butchered in 256k rates.

The most interesting palette is to be found on "Groovy Potential". It does not scream innovation, but at least it's an interesting balance, that manages to sound modern while still preserving a natural sound on drums, horns and guitars. I could do without the stupid auto-tuned voice-over-the-phone gimmick.

I would not say it's badly mixed. It's dully produced. The sound palette offers nothing we haven't heard before. The radical production choices found on Parade are long gone.

Listening to Prince requires to be an audiophile, true. Before V10LETBLUES spits one more time on AOA, he'd better question his audio chain, and/or the source of his audio files.

The only distorsion I hear on the whole album is to be found on the 2 last choruses of "The Breakdown", and they're intentional, a way to imply the suffering.
Everything else is impeccable, and manages to be compressed while sounding dynamic, "Time" being the perfect example.

Thanx, that was an insightful contribution. However u got me lost with the 128 is better than 256 part. If mp3 320 is better than 256 which is better than 128, how can it be the opposite with recording gear??? Sorry if the question sounds dumb, I really don't know shit about those technical thangs.

I don't think I wrote that... The state-of-the-art recording gear goes up to 192Khz, which is frequency (the average ear can hear frequencies between 20hz — a note so low it's perceived as something vibrating, we're talking infra-basses here — and 20Khz — a note so high it's above your standard tinnitus [acouphène]).

By the way, as most of Prince fans are in their forties, do not forget to adjust your global EQ if you want to retrieve your adolescent sonic emotions, as we all go deaf with age (it's inevitable) :
http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/hearing.html

I'm 43, and I have to boost the 16kHz so much it's depressing
A 13 year old kid would theorically get a flat curve.


When talking about MP3, we're talking in kilobytes (320, 256, 128...) rate per second, roughly how much information is stored for one second of music.

I'll agree this has nothing to do with mixing, but there.


It's not über-interesting to talk about mixing, since a very good mix will never save poor production choices. Or make a poor composition interesting.
If we're really talking about "mixing", I don't think you can say they're mixed "terribly". They're pretty standard as far as volume balances, EQ and compressions go. They're well balanced. But there's no such thing as a "bad" and "good" mix, because you'll never know if the person behind the mixing desk was putting an instrument or a voice far in the background (or upfront) intentionally or not.

For example, one could say that "Teacher Teacher" is mixed terribly, and he would have a point if the original intent was to recreate a kind of Phil Spector's Wall of Sound.
In the end, it's a very original and risky way approach you have on "Teacher, Teacher".
I say that because the final sound of it was obviously intentional.
But it does challenge the ear, it's certainly not the standard way of balancing a pop instrumentation.

I think the what the OP is really referring to is "mastering".

[Edited 1/7/16 12:33pm]

Nothing to contribute with, but such and interesting thread, thanks.

First and foremost - some of you are obviously blinded to the point of delusion based off your fandom. If you're response to this thread was something close to "Prince's music mixed poorly? That's absurd! Everything Prince does is perfect." you might be one of those people

Yes, I understand mixing can be a boring subject for many people. Audio quality may not be a big deal to you . . to some it is, this thread is for those people.

No, it's not an absurd notion that Prince's music is mixed poorly. His musical expertise aside, he's obviously not allocating any priority to the quality of the mixes. Even Susan Rogers (did I get that name right?) has said that technical aspects of mixing can be an afterthought for him

A great mastering job can not hide a poorm ix . . to the contrary any mastering of poor mix will estentuate the qualities of a poor mix . . and yes, there most certainly is such thing as a "bad mix"

This subject is of interest to me and being that it's in regards to Prince, I've posted it here. There's no limitation on discussions and there's plenty of other topics to discuss on this forum if this one isn't your cup of tea. .

If you still choose to partake in this thread despite a disinterest in audio engineering perhaps you might be able to lend your expertise to a discussion about personnel. For those that have physical copies of Phase One . . is Joshua Welton responsible for the mix?

I find that letting the producer be in charge of the mix is usually (but not always) a major downfall

databank said:

databank said:

Please avoid starting threads with phrases such as "let's be honest" or "let's face it", it implies that there is no room for debate and makes you sound like a troll.

jeesh micromanage much ..

databank said:

Reminds me of that orger who wrote the other day that "Prince needs to take drums lessons"

Such statements are so ridiculously absurd that they can't be anything but trolling and therefore they don't belong on this message board.

[Edited 1/6/16 22:11pm]

i think u might be a troll databank .. you spend a lot of time talking shit about other orgers instead of contributing to the topic at hand .. just sayin

TrevorAyer said:

databank said:

Reminds me of that orger who wrote the other day that "Prince needs to take drums lessons"

Such statements are so ridiculously absurd that they can't be anything but trolling and therefore they don't belong on this message board.

[Edited 1/6/16 22:11pm]

i think u might be a troll databank .. you spend a lot of time talking shit about other orgers instead of contributing to the topic at hand .. just sayin

Uh, that's not fair.
I'm sure databank can defend himself, but the work he's doing on his website (acessible in his signature) clearly signifies he's no troll at all.

i find the prince mix to be pretty good for the most part .. i do think his equipment might be too expensive for all the wrong reasons .. you know how they just make cheaper tech but charge more so all the rich people will think they are upgrading but really that old vintage recording equipment that isn't worth anything sounds a million times better ..

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somewhere along the line prince got some really bass heavy speakers and now a lot of his music lacks bass in the mix .. a lot of his analog tone has been replaced by digital tones which tend to be thin and tinny .. or even worse .. effects and amps that are digital instead of mic'ed analog with a real amp .. digitally sampling the linn or a digital version of camille instead of actually speeding up analog tape or sending the linn through real guitar pedals and amps

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i suppose all of this could fall under mixing since it has to do with tone .. but ultimately it is production that determines mic placement and eq or just choosing a real life band sound through analog instead of whatever is preprogrammed in a digital format

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ever since lovesexy i have been less than impressed with a lot of the production .. lovesexy sounds like a casio keyboard from service merchandise to me .. it reminds me of prince love of a fake grand piano .. instead of a real one .. or that awful truth album where the acoustic guitar sounded shitty and cheap and lacked the real tone of an acoustic

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this is due to prince hanging mostly in the pop sphere .. the current and past pop sounds have always been cheap garbage tones ... its just easier to have a drum machine pop through your car stereo or little iphone speaker than to mic a real drumset and get that kind of tone ..

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but that said .. prince mixes are usually really great .. everything can be heard clearly .. the drums pop through ... its the tones i have issue with ... and after tones comes post production ..which involves the loudness wars and lots of clipping when it comes to prince .. i think his mastering lately has really taken a dump on his overall sound .. its unfortunate to say the least, that clipping is preferred over real clearly heard musical tones ..

bonatoc said:

TrevorAyer said:

i think u might be a troll databank .. you spend a lot of time talking shit about other orgers instead of contributing to the topic at hand .. just sayin

Uh, that's not fair.
I'm sure databank can defend himself, but the work he's doing on his website (acessible in his signature) clearly signifies he's no troll at all.

sure its fair .. databank likes to go around putting his little nutso emoticon on every post he doesn't like and often says nothing to the topic at hand .. just because he cuts and pastes p's release schedule doesn't negate his general douchery about who can say what and who should be mocked and insulted based upon his opinion

TrevorAyer said:

bonatoc said:

Uh, that's not fair.
I'm sure databank can defend himself, but the work he's doing on his website (acessible in his signature) clearly signifies he's no troll at all.

sure its fair .. databank likes to go around putting his little nutso emoticon on every post he doesn't like and often says nothing to the topic at hand .. just because he cuts and pastes p's release schedule doesn't negate his general douchery about who can say what and who should be mocked and insulted based upon his opinion

I see where u're coming from. However I'm not the only one to consider this place has become a madhouse. Most of the people who think that have left the Org or won't open an account on it. Lots of valuable contributors lost if I'm to believe what I hear. I could do that. I've thought of doing that. I just happen to have a history with this site so I'd rather try and make it a nice place again. Go on boards like the Marvel Masterworks board or the Force.net boards: not half of what's going on here would be tolerated by the mods.

Actually my constant ranting has had some positive impact on this board and has encouraged some people to be more moderate about what they post. Actually your post about mixing in that very thread has been the most reasonable and moderate thing I've read from you in a looooong time. Maybe you're trying to make a point? More ranting by more orgers could help if it gets us there.

However I also happen to contribute a lot of other discussions, maybe u haven't seen those posts.

I also had the courtesy not to name the orger responsible for the drum lessons comment.

bonatoc said:

TrevorAyer said:

i think u might be a troll databank .. you spend a lot of time talking shit about other orgers instead of contributing to the topic at hand .. just sayin

Uh, that's not fair.
I'm sure databank can defend himself, but the work he's doing on his website (acessible in his signature) clearly signifies he's no troll at all.

Thx