good/great musician by the masses? I mean when u visit his concerts u can clearly see and hear, that he can play Guitar, Drums, Keys...

But when u put on his record, its not really exicited for a real musician, when u just hear drum-computers/ Bass, tons of voice effects...etc. it feels like listening to timbaland sometimes...(with a better voice).

i once gave a good friend of mine (a musician) Sott and he wasnt very thrilled about it. he told me, some songs are good, but musically not really exiting (lot of computers, feels dead) than he showed me a song by Al jaurou and said: listen - here u can cleary hear that every instrument is "real". its alive. and believe me, you could clearly hear the difference.

Then i came across a rehearsal for the Sott tour where they played Dorothy with live drums (and the other songs)..and i thought, that Sott should have been recorded with a band. It would rock extremly hard and would a perfect statement for musicians.

[Edited 5/25/15 4:43am]

I would argue that that may have been the case 20 years ago but he is frequently listed as one of the best musicians in the world. In fact it's often overstated.

I like the mix of live stuff and linn programming, don't know what to tell you.

You should let your friend hear P's 1st 4 records. Every instrument and vocal can be heard clearly...If those records don't sound like a full band, then I don't know what does.

misiu said:

good/great musician by the masses? I mean when u visit his concerts u can clearly see and hear, that he can play Guitar, Drums, Keys...

But when u put on his record, its not really exicited for a real musician, when u just hear drum-computers/ Bass, tons of voice effects...etc. it feels like listening to timbaland sometimes...(with a better voice).

i once gave a good friend of mine (a musician) Sott and he wasnt very thrilled about it. he told me, some songs are good, but musically not really exiting (lot of computers, feels dead) than he showed me a song by Al jaurou and said: listen - here u can cleary hear that every instrument is "real". its alive. and believe me, you could clearly hear the difference.

Then i came across a rehearsal for the Sott tour where they played Dorothy with live drums (and the other songs)..and i thought, that Sott should have been recorded with a band. It would rock extremly hard and would a perfect statement for musicians.

[Edited 5/25/15 4:43am]

I actually agree with your friend as far as the albums sounding unexciting. My favorite albums by him are the albums with live instruments. I have always wondered why everyone likes SOTT so much because thats the feeling I have with that album. There are a few good songs but to me the album is dead overall with all of the keyboard drums and sounds. It is just a personal preferance. If he likes the live sound of instruments stick to those albums. My personal favorites are the symbol album, gold experience, chaos, diamonds and pearls, rainbow children, Dirty mind just to name a few. I totally understand your friends reaction as it is the same as mine. It doesn't mean he won't like him because he did not like SOTT, you just have to adjust to the style of music he likes and go from there.

Most "musicians" are actually the equivalent of traditional landscape painters (and you know how long ago that went out of fashion as anything interesting?). They couldn't come up with something inspired in their whole lifetime. They're notion of what constututes music is trained, like a dog, and has completely lost the essence of the concept: That music is sound hitting in a conceptual way to create a mood. It is not at it's core about performance, chords, notes, and musical vocabulary.

Your musician friend doesn't sound very creatively or artistically sound. The entire point of using a mechanical drum track or "dead" production method, was to break the mold of the traditionsl live band sound, and it did sound fresh and exciting at the time. The ideal of every intrument being organic and live is a conservative old fashioned one. Prince was re-imagining R&B through a robotic futuristic lens. He was presenting strange broken apart stripped down arrangements and tones, and often killed certain normally loved elements of the genre to focus on particular things. He liked to combine things in a clashing way as an experiment.

Prince was not interested in going backwards to a full warm live arrangment sound of the 60's and 70's back then. The use of drum programming and electronics and the cold robotic sound are part of what made him a pioneer and "cool" at the time. To re-record SOTT as a live band and put it out, would make it less groundbreaking. Much less interesting. Much less artistically sound.

Prince would push it to extremes often far ahead of the game back then. I think SOTT was so forward thinking it alienated many of his "normal" fans... they didn't understand why he had dropped the New Wave moniker of Purple Rain and moved on to Depeche Mode and New Order. These were the same people that were coming to high school dressed like they were in the Revolution two years before.

Even with Prince fans this kind of conservative outlook rears it's head when people talk about the live versions of Days Of Wild being miles ahead of the studio version. The live versions, especially the one on the Crystal Ball compilation album are conservative and traditional in comparison to the orginal tone and mood of the studio version.

ufoclub said:

Most "musicians" are actually the equivalent of traditional landscape painters (and you know how long ago that went out of fashion as anything interesting?). They couldn't come up with something inspired in their whole lifetime. They're notion of what constututes music is trained, like a dog, and has completely lost the essence of the concept: That music is sound hitting in a conceptual way to create a mood. It is not at it's core about performance, chords, notes, and musical vocabulary.

Your musician friend doesn't sound very creatively or artistically sound. The entire point of using a mechanical drum track or "dead" production method, was to break the mold of the traditionsl live band sound, and it did sound fresh and exciting at the time. The ideal of every intrument being organic and live is a conservative old fashioned one. Prince was re-imagining R&B through a robotic futuristic lens. He was presenting strange broken apart stripped down arrangements and tones, and often killed certain normally loved elements of the genre to focus on particular things. He liked to combine things in a clashing way as an experiment.

Prince was not interested in going backwards to a full warm live arrangment sound of the 60's and 70's back then. The use of drum programming and electronics and the cold robotic sound are part of what made him a pioneer and "cool" at the time. To re-record SOTT as a live band and put it out, would make it less groundbreaking. Much less interesting. Much less artistically sound.

Prince would push it to extremes often far ahead of the game back then. I think SOTT was so forward thinking it alienated many of his "normal" fans... they didn't understand why he had dropped the New Wave moniker of Purple Rain and moved on to Depeche Mode and New Order. These were the same people that were coming to high school dressed like they were in the Revolution two years before.

Even with Prince fans this kind of conservative outlook rears it's head when people talk about the live versions of Days Of Wild being miles ahead of the studio version. The live versions, especially the one on the Crystal Ball compilation album are conservative and traditional in comparison to the orginal tone and mood of the studio version.

I don't do this often, but... yeah. What he said.

It should also be stated for the record that the currently-existing compact disc of Sign o' the Times does not sound good; it's very flat and drab.

If I wanted to impress a fellow musician with Prince's ability, today, I'd probably be more inclined to reach for the first three tracks on Lotusflower.

eyewishuheaven said:

Its very simple, Prince during the 80s and 90s was thought of as talented etc, but to the middle of the road Phil Collins type fans , he was weird and unapproachable. So people couldnt or wouldnt see beyond that. And that attitude still stands in some quarters today. Prince wanted to be different, and is different , so his true talent wont be appreciated till hes long gone.

How anyone can slag Sign of the Times is beyond me, but saying that, I'm a fan so I'm biased. Prince uses what he feels he needs for any given record, or track whether it be live instruments or not. The great think about Prince is he can mix it up. At home being a band leader or in the studio using the board.

And yet, if you put on Hot Thing on a huge system with loud speakers and a spectacular bass, people won't give a flying fuck about "mastering". And those who don't dare to shake their ass in a club can go and weep in a corner, and think about just how lame they are. His music ain't 80's baby, it's eternity with a touch of purple magic.

misiu said:

ufoclub said:

Most "musicians" are actually the equivalent of traditional landscape painters (and you know how long ago that went out of fashion as anything interesting?). They couldn't come up with something inspired in their whole lifetime. They're notion of what constututes music is trained, like a dog, and has completely lost the essence of the concept: That music is sound hitting in a conceptual way to create a mood. It is not at it's core about performance, chords, notes, and musical vocabulary.

Your musician friend doesn't sound very creatively or artistically sound. The entire point of using a mechanical drum track or "dead" production method, was to break the mold of the traditionsl live band sound, and it did sound fresh and exciting at the time. The ideal of every intrument being organic and live is a conservative old fashioned one. Prince was re-imagining R&B through a robotic futuristic lens. He was presenting strange broken apart stripped down arrangements and tones, and often killed certain normally loved elements of the genre to focus on particular things. He liked to combine things in a clashing way as an experiment.

Prince was not interested in going backwards to a full warm live arrangment sound of the 60's and 70's back then. The use of drum programming and electronics and the cold robotic sound are part of what made him a pioneer and "cool" at the time. To re-record SOTT as a live band and put it out, would make it less groundbreaking. Much less interesting. Much less artistically sound.

Prince would push it to extremes often far ahead of the game back then. I think SOTT was so forward thinking it alienated many of his "normal" fans... they didn't understand why he had dropped the New Wave moniker of Purple Rain and moved on to Depeche Mode and New Order. These were the same people that were coming to high school dressed like they were in the Revolution two years before.

Even with Prince fans this kind of conservative outlook rears it's head when people talk about the live versions of Days Of Wild being miles ahead of the studio version. The live versions, especially the one on the Crystal Ball compilation album are conservative and traditional in comparison to the orginal tone and mood of the studio version.

Doozer said:

Prince has enjoyed popular/commercial success (80s and early 90s), pseudo-underground status in the late 90s and early 2000s, and is reknowned and celebrated as a live performer now. He's been everything from a freak and a weirdo to a complete media darling today. I'd say he's done it all, but never had it all at once. Your musician friend's opinion on one solo album seems like nothing more than one person's opinion. My personal opinion: he/she is wrong about SOTT. It's mastered poorly but is a fantastic solo album. It was his first "solo" album in years at the time of its release. It was never a full-band effort. Look elsewhere in his catalog if that's what you're after.

Excellent post. That's what appeals to me most about Prince -- how much color and change there is constantly in his career/music.

skywalker said:

I think this thread should have been titled: " Why doesn't my friend appreciate Prince as much as he should?" - I think that Prince is, by in large, hugely respected by bathe masses. Even more so by musicians. I just think your friend may have particular tastes.

eyewishuheaven said:

It should also be stated for the record that the currently-existing compact disc of Sign o' the Times does not sound good; it's very flat and drab.

If I wanted to impress a fellow musician with Prince's ability, today, I'd probably be more inclined to reach for the first three tracks on Lotusflower.

It's ironic how Prince's most critically acclaimed album probably has the worst sound out of any of his albums. I really wanna know what happened there... it sounds weak and quiet. I'm playing other songs on shuffle and when a SOTT tune comes, I have to crank up the volume and still not get spectacular sound. Overall, I prefer the live versions.

EddieC said:

ufoclub said:

Most "musicians" are actually the equivalent of traditional landscape painters (and you know how long ago that went out of fashion as anything interesting?). They couldn't come up with something inspired in their whole lifetime. They're notion of what constututes music is trained, like a dog, and has completely lost the essence of the concept: That music is sound hitting in a conceptual way to create a mood. It is not at it's core about performance, chords, notes, and musical vocabulary.

Your musician friend doesn't sound very creatively or artistically sound. The entire point of using a mechanical drum track or "dead" production method, was to break the mold of the traditionsl live band sound, and it did sound fresh and exciting at the time. The ideal of every intrument being organic and live is a conservative old fashioned one. Prince was re-imagining R&B through a robotic futuristic lens. He was presenting strange broken apart stripped down arrangements and tones, and often killed certain normally loved elements of the genre to focus on particular things. He liked to combine things in a clashing way as an experiment.

Prince was not interested in going backwards to a full warm live arrangment sound of the 60's and 70's back then. The use of drum programming and electronics and the cold robotic sound are part of what made him a pioneer and "cool" at the time. To re-record SOTT as a live band and put it out, would make it less groundbreaking. Much less interesting. Much less artistically sound.

Prince would push it to extremes often far ahead of the game back then. I think SOTT was so forward thinking it alienated many of his "normal" fans... they didn't understand why he had dropped the New Wave moniker of Purple Rain and moved on to Depeche Mode and New Order. These were the same people that were coming to high school dressed like they were in the Revolution two years before.

Even with Prince fans this kind of conservative outlook rears it's head when people talk about the live versions of Days Of Wild being miles ahead of the studio version. The live versions, especially the one on the Crystal Ball compilation album are conservative and traditional in comparison to the orginal tone and mood of the studio version.

I don't do this often, but... yeah. What he said.

BINGO

Sly Said it Best...

different strokes for different folks!

Honestly,

Ive heard many professional musician friends say-

Prince's music doesnt 'touch them' in the way

Marvins does..

Or STEVIE's or MJ's Quincy Jones produced late 70's material..

Or Roxy Music.. or Fela or Joni's or ?...

Why?

Maybe its (1) downside of Prince craving 'Stardom & to get noticed' 1978-1981 ?

Ego101 said:

Honestly,

Ive heard many professional musician friends say-

Prince's music doesnt 'touch them' in the way

Marvins does..

Or STEVIE's or MJ's Quincy Jones produced late 70's material..

Or Roxy Music.. or Fela or Joni's or ?...

Why?

Maybe its (1) downside of Prince craving 'Stardom & to get noticed' 1978-1981 ?

This is lost on me. I think Prince is one of the most brilliant musicians of all time, and a song like The Beautiful Ones has the same effect on me as something like I Can't Help It, Will You Be There, or Living for the City.

Prince is respected and recognized as a musical genuis by most people.However,sometimes there are distractions that get in the way.There have been times when his outfits,his girlfriends,his persona,his name change,his ego,etc...have gotten in the way,making it hard for some people to really appreciate his talent.

^^For example....as we recently discussed,there was alot of great music recorded during the "symbol/slave years" but during that era,the general public seemed to be more focused on his name change.

misiu said:

...Yes i love sott too. For me a great record. But i also think that a live band would take it to another level ( for example sott movie...or the rehearsals..).... The strange thing about prince is....he is preaching since 10 years " real music by real musicians" and uses on most of his records drum machines/pre tools and and ...ironic...

you don't have any idea what the fuck you are talking about. stop talking.

leave the music to the musicians and stop talking garbage nonsense.

this is so insanely insulting to anyone who appreciates music. if you think you can't be a real musician and use drum machines, you are a fool. and you aren't a real prince fan.

the reason when doves cry is one of the most innovative songs and the biggest song of that year is simple-- sonic minimalism. the song is nothing more than a synth, a drum machine, and a voice. if you think you can't use synths, pro tools, and drum machines and still be making real music, leave this site and never call yourself a prince fan ever again.

[Edited 5/25/15 23:58pm]

warning2all said:

NorthC said:

warning2all said:

Prince was so much about "Image" & got lumped in with non-musicians Madonna & Michael Jackson--his musicianship was overlooked [Edited 5/25/15 8:17am]

Also, I agree with the people saying Sign o'the Times sounds a bit flat. It's the songwriting that makes it a great album, not the instrumental parts.

Ummmm, I think the songwriting is great. But it's exactly the instrumental parts that makes the album for me. Considering which year it's made.