I hadn't realized that when he created his own NPG Publishing company it involved withdrawing from ASCAP. The ACE database was a good source of info for songwriting credit (I wanted to check on Judith Hill's album).

Now we're DOOOOOMED

Hi Databank. Doomed?


Sorry I may be a little dumb here, but why is it good to be with ASCAP, and bad not to be with ASCAP?

I am not sure what ASCAP is at all, its something like a publishing company or what?

Please tell..... yeah, please help and educate a "little dumb" dane like me..? why do you want Prince to be with ASCAP?



Does it mean Prince is without a record company again... or what?

Confusion......

thedance said:

Hi Databank. Doomed?


Sorry I may be a little dumb here, but why is it good to be with ASCAP, and bad not to be with ASCAP?

It is bad for US because we cannot search P's songwriting credits anymore.

I am not sure what ASCAP is at all, its something like a publishing company or what?

Yeah.

Please tell..... yeah, please help and educate a "little dumb" dane like me..? why do you want Prince to be with ASCAP?

So I can know which songs he wrote or didn't write.

Does it mean Prince is without a record company again... or what?

Nothing to do with labels

Confusion......

Everything's gonna be awright, I promise

Ok! - thanks for your reply databank..

His stuff is still in the PRS database that I have access to here in the UK as a registered professional songwriter

None of the songs on Judith's record are registered on there, except "Beautiful Life" which lists her as the sole writer, and is self-published.

There's a handful of other songs registered, but none from her album with Prince, and none that list Prince as a co-writer.

Militant said:

His stuff is still in the PRS database that I have access to here in the UK as a registered professional songwriter

None of the songs on Judith's record are registered on there, except "Beautiful Life" which lists her as the sole writer, and is self-published.

There's a handful of other songs registered, but none from her album with Prince, and none that list Prince as a co-writer.

Interesting. Thx very much, might be worth checking it out again if the wrecka get a proper release later

ASCAP stands for American Society of Composers, Authors, and Publishers. Usually if you're putting out music in the US, you have to be a member of either ASCAP or BMI. They are royalty rights organizations. They insure that you are paid for each performance of your work. That means radio, clubs, tv, film etc. I worked there and personally made sure ole boy was paid for a few of his works including Purple Rain (film and soundtrack). With Prince the liner notes, album credits were usually to throw off the public where the REAL authors and publishers were others. We'd sort it out and get the artist paid.

nobias said:

ASCAP stands for American Society of Composers, Authors, and Publishers. Usually if you're putting out music in the US, you have to be a member of either ASCAP or BMI. They are royalty rights organizations. They insure that you are paid for each performance of your work. That means radio, clubs, tv, film etc. I worked there and personally made sure ole boy was paid for a few of his works including Purple Rain (film and soundtrack). With Prince the liner notes, album credits were usually to throw off the public where the REAL authors and publishers were others. We'd sort it out and get the artist paid.

Maybe u can help me on that one. I've always wondered: if for example Nothing Comparse 2 U had been credited to Susannah and St. Paul (since all other Prince tracks on the albums were credited to others), what should Sinead have written on her album and single, and music TV channels under the title when playing the video? Were they free to put "Prince" given that he was the writer registered as ASCAP, or would they have had to put the phoney credits, or were they free to do either at will? NC2U is an example because it came to mind, but of course my question is for all songs whith phoney credits on the album's booklet. Just imagine if NC2U had been credited to "St. Paul" everywhere, it'd have brought insane publkicity on Paul, Paul would have had to deny writing the track, it would have confused the audience and created a mess with medias saying "this is in fact a Prince song" and every credit saying otherwise

databank said:

nobias said:

ASCAP stands for American Society of Composers, Authors, and Publishers. Usually if you're putting out music in the US, you have to be a member of either ASCAP or BMI. They are royalty rights organizations. They insure that you are paid for each performance of your work. That means radio, clubs, tv, film etc. I worked there and personally made sure ole boy was paid for a few of his works including Purple Rain (film and soundtrack). With Prince the liner notes, album credits were usually to throw off the public where the REAL authors and publishers were others. We'd sort it out and get the artist paid.

Maybe u can help me on that one. I've always wondered: if for example Nothing Comparse 2 U had been credited to Susannah and St. Paul (since all other Prince tracks on the albums were credited to others), what should Sinead have written on her album and single, and music TV channels under the title when playing the video? Were they free to put "Prince" given that he was the writer registered as ASCAP, or would they have had to put the phoney credits, or were they free to do either at will? NC2U is an example because it came to mind, but of course my question is for all songs whith phoney credits on the album's booklet. Just imagine if NC2U had been credited to "St. Paul" everywhere, it'd have brought insane publkicity on Paul, Paul would have had to deny writing the track, it would have confused the audience and created a mess with medias saying "this is in fact a Prince song" and every credit saying otherwise

I could be wrong, but I am presuming that the entry in the ASCAP database is the definitive source. So you could put whatever you want on an album cover but the royalties go to whomever is in the ASCAP database (or BMI as I have just learned from nobias above).

Im a little confused with you saying he is no longer with ASCAP. Does that mean NPG Publishing are going to be doing the leg work regarding tracking down royalty payments? If that is the case, sheesh, what a lot of work he has just lumped on his little elves. Why would he do that? Do ASCAP take a cut of every royalty payment? Is that cut worth taking on the task yourself? Nobias says that if you are putting out music in the US then you have to be a member of ASCAP or BMI. Does that mean he is breaking the rules by not being a member?

databank said:

leecaldon said:

databank said:

Maybe u can help me on that one. I've always wondered: if for example Nothing Comparse 2 U had been credited to Susannah and St. Paul (since all other Prince tracks on the albums were credited to others), what should Sinead have written on her album and single, and music TV channels under the title when playing the video? Were they free to put "Prince" given that he was the writer registered as ASCAP, or would they have had to put the phoney credits, or were they free to do either at will? NC2U is an example because it came to mind, but of course my question is for all songs whith phoney credits on the album's booklet. Just imagine if NC2U had been credited to "St. Paul" everywhere, it'd have brought insane publkicity on Paul, Paul would have had to deny writing the track, it would have confused the audience and created a mess with medias saying "this is in fact a Prince song" and every credit saying otherwise

I was under the impression that NC2U was the one song on The Family album that was credited to Prince on the sleeve.

Yes that's what I'm sayin'

When Naaty Girl was covered a few years back, the songwriting credited on the CD to Vanity.

Interesting. Any other xemples?

.

[Edited 4/10/15 6:26am]

NPG Publishing is registered with ASCAP, as is Judith Hill, together with the publishing company, Gloryhill.

The songs, 'Beautiful Life', 'Love Trip' and 'My People' together with another 43 songs are registered on the ACE database. (One song, 'My Cure' might possibly be an alternative title for the song, 'Cure' on the 'Back In Time' album).

Militant said:

His stuff is still in the PRS database that I have access to here in the UK as a registered professional songwriter

None of the songs on Judith's record are registered on there, except "Beautiful Life" which lists her as the sole writer, and is self-published.

There's a handful of other songs registered, but none from her album with Prince, and none that list Prince as a co-writer.

wasn't that song released on a soundtrack album last year but re recorded for this album?

bigd74 said:

Militant said:

His stuff is still in the PRS database that I have access to here in the UK as a registered professional songwriter

None of the songs on Judith's record are registered on there, except "Beautiful Life" which lists her as the sole writer, and is self-published.

There's a handful of other songs registered, but none from her album with Prince, and none that list Prince as a co-writer.

wasn't that song released on a soundtrack album last year but re recorded for this album?

Versions of 'Beautiful Life' and 'My People' both feature amongst 10 songs by Hill on the original soundtrack of Spike Lee's 2012 film, 'Red Hook Summer'

databank said:

nobias said:

ASCAP stands for American Society of Composers, Authors, and Publishers. Usually if you're putting out music in the US, you have to be a member of either ASCAP or BMI. They are royalty rights organizations. They insure that you are paid for each performance of your work. That means radio, clubs, tv, film etc. I worked there and personally made sure ole boy was paid for a few of his works including Purple Rain (film and soundtrack). With Prince the liner notes, album credits were usually to throw off the public where the REAL authors and publishers were others. We'd sort it out and get the artist paid.

Maybe u can help me on that one. I've always wondered: if for example Nothing Comparse 2 U had been credited to Susannah and St. Paul (since all other Prince tracks on the albums were credited to others), what should Sinead have written on her album and single, and music TV channels under the title when playing the video? Were they free to put "Prince" given that he was the writer registered as ASCAP, or would they have had to put the phoney credits, or were they free to do either at will? NC2U is an example because it came to mind, but of course my question is for all songs whith phoney credits on the album's booklet. Just imagine if NC2U had been credited to "St. Paul" everywhere, it'd have brought insane publkicity on Paul, Paul would have had to deny writing the track, it would have confused the audience and created a mess with medias saying "this is in fact a Prince song" and every credit saying otherwise

.

Great thread, Databank. I'm picking up quite a bit of information from it.

.

I'm playing devil's advocate here. In your scenario above, I'm not certain but I don't think Paul would have to publically disclose that he did not write NC2U, unless he was required by Prince, as the ASCAP-registered writer and copyright owner, to do so by means of some prior established legal agreement? I'm taking a wild guess here as I have no clue what kind of arrangements are made with regard to music credits and copyrights. But I'm thinking if Prince theoretically permitted Paul to take songwriting credit on NC2U in all forms, there would be little confusion as people would just accept the liner notes, and other sources of credit as being accurately reported becuase that information comes from "official" sources--even though, in reality (in this fictional scenario), it would not be true.

.

Can't believe it took me so many years but after reading about ASCAP and the ACE database in this thread I visited the web site for the first time and played around with it. So when someone wants to look up the songwriter of a particular song or album, how does the ACE database at ASCAP compare to searching the U.S. Copyright Office?

[Edited 4/15/15 1:10am]

writing credits? Everyone knows Prince wrote ever single song of the last 35 years...except Happy and and What does the Fox Say...

Rebeljuice said:

databank said:

Maybe u can help me on that one. I've always wondered: if for example Nothing Comparse 2 U had been credited to Susannah and St. Paul (since all other Prince tracks on the albums were credited to others), what should Sinead have written on her album and single, and music TV channels under the title when playing the video? Were they free to put "Prince" given that he was the writer registered as ASCAP, or would they have had to put the phoney credits, or were they free to do either at will? NC2U is an example because it came to mind, but of course my question is for all songs whith phoney credits on the album's booklet. Just imagine if NC2U had been credited to "St. Paul" everywhere, it'd have brought insane publkicity on Paul, Paul would have had to deny writing the track, it would have confused the audience and created a mess with medias saying "this is in fact a Prince song" and every credit saying otherwise

I could be wrong, but I am presuming that the entry in the ASCAP database is the definitive source. So you could put whatever you want on an album cover but the royalties go to whomever is in the ASCAP database (or BMI as I have just learned from nobias above).

Im a little confused with you saying he is no longer with ASCAP. Does that mean NPG Publishing are going to be doing the leg work regarding tracking down royalty payments? If that is the case, sheesh, what a lot of work he has just lumped on his little elves. Why would he do that? Do ASCAP take a cut of every royalty payment? Is that cut worth taking on the task yourself? Nobias says that if you are putting out music in the US then you have to be a member of ASCAP or BMI. Does that mean he is breaking the rules by not being a member?

Databank, Rebeljuice hit it right on the head. What appears on the album or cd is of no consequence, it's what ASCAP has it registered as. We had little cards with each song that came out and it would be up to us to determine who the writer and publisher was for each song of every member. Every one would have its share of research unless provided directly from the Publisher. Trust, if Prince is no longer affiliated with ASCAP, he's BMI. NPG Publishing HAS to get the (publishing) money from somewhere, and its those two organizations that work that out for them. The work is too daunting a task for the artist themselves to reconcile. We had a listening section (where people listened to hours of recorded audio from radio, tv, movies, etc just to spot when an ASCAP composition popped up. Then it was timed to figure out the duration which would let us know how much as far as royalty needed to be paid out. Heaviest hitters at the time were Bob Marley and Stevie Wonder. Madonna was also up there. We'd issue (HUGE) quarterly checks for their payments. ASCAP is a non-profit so whatever membership dues or fees were basically used for the upkeep of the organization. Back in the day I had heard about an unreleased Prince track called "Horny Pony." No recorded track anywhere. I used my connects and contacted Controversy music and got a nice little letter along with the sheet music. It was a weird phone call though, I swear I was speaking to P directly. lol

Prince may have written most of the stuff attributed to him, but during his Purple Rain days in particular, he was generous, adding John L. Nelson and others to some of the writer credits. Sending a few $ their way. That's not to say they didn't contribute to the tracks, but there WERE those tracks that had additional writer credits with people not thought to be associated with the tracks.

I'm eventually gonna do a little post on Purple Rain. I have a copy in my house of one of P's signed contracts and I wanted to upload it for my story. If I can ever find the darn thing.

databank said:

nobias said:

ASCAP stands for American Society of Composers, Authors, and Publishers. Usually if you're putting out music in the US, you have to be a member of either ASCAP or BMI. They are royalty rights organizations. They insure that you are paid for each performance of your work. That means radio, clubs, tv, film etc. I worked there and personally made sure ole boy was paid for a few of his works including Purple Rain (film and soundtrack). With Prince the liner notes, album credits were usually to throw off the public where the REAL authors and publishers were others. We'd sort it out and get the artist paid.

Maybe u can help me on that one. I've always wondered: if for example Nothing Comparse 2 U had been credited to Susannah and St. Paul (since all other Prince tracks on the albums were credited to others), what should Sinead have written on her album and single, and music TV channels under the title when playing the video? Were they free to put "Prince" given that he was the writer registered as ASCAP, or would they have had to put the phoney credits, or were they free to do either at will? NC2U is an example because it came to mind, but of course my question is for all songs whith phoney credits on the album's booklet. Just imagine if NC2U had been credited to "St. Paul" everywhere, it'd have brought insane publkicity on Paul, Paul would have had to deny writing the track, it would have confused the audience and created a mess with medias saying "this is in fact a Prince song" and every credit saying otherwise

Hey Databank! (long time, long time)

I think those were usually casual agreements between the artist as far as who got credit on the albums. There was no set method in place that needed to be followed. Prince's stuff was my personal project and was ALWAYS deceptive. It would say Jamie Starr on the cd, but aint no Jamie registered on the writer credits. Same with Alexander Nevermind and all the others. More likely than not, if P wrote the song, it came out listing someone else as writers, and Sinead re-did it, she'd reflect the previous album credits. Then the ASCAP-ians would sort out what was actually provided to us and the copyright office. His stuff was fun because it was a puzzle in some respects. You had to be a bit of a detective. It was if you got to peek inside of the mystique he was creating. Very cool times.

[Edited 4/14/15 10:53am]

databank said:

I hadn't realized that when he created his own NPG Publishing company it involved withdrawing from ASCAP. The ACE database was a good source of info for songwriting credit (I wanted to check on Judith Hill's album).

Now we're DOOOOOMED

still has to belong to either ASCAP or BMI to get royalty payments. all artists/writings/producers have publishing companies. i am a member of ASCAP and i checked and he's still a member.

nobias said:

Rebeljuice said:

I could be wrong, but I am presuming that the entry in the ASCAP database is the definitive source. So you could put whatever you want on an album cover but the royalties go to whomever is in the ASCAP database (or BMI as I have just learned from nobias above).

Im a little confused with you saying he is no longer with ASCAP. Does that mean NPG Publishing are going to be doing the leg work regarding tracking down royalty payments? If that is the case, sheesh, what a lot of work he has just lumped on his little elves. Why would he do that? Do ASCAP take a cut of every royalty payment? Is that cut worth taking on the task yourself? Nobias says that if you are putting out music in the US then you have to be a member of ASCAP or BMI. Does that mean he is breaking the rules by not being a member?

Databank, Rebeljuice hit it right on the head. What appears on the album or cd is of no consequence, it's what ASCAP has it registered as. We had little cards with each song that came out and it would be up to us to determine who the writer and publisher was for each song of every member. Every one would have its share of research unless provided directly from the Publisher. Trust, if Prince is no longer affiliated with ASCAP, he's BMI. NPG Publishing HAS to get the (publishing) money from somewhere, and its those two organizations that work that out for them. The work is too daunting a task for the artist themselves to reconcile. We had a listening section (where people listened to hours of recorded audio from radio, tv, movies, etc just to spot when an ASCAP composition popped up. Then it was timed to figure out the duration which would let us know how much as far as royalty needed to be paid out. Heaviest hitters at the time were Bob Marley and Stevie Wonder. Madonna was also up there. We'd issue (HUGE) quarterly checks for their payments. ASCAP is a non-profit so whatever membership dues or fees were basically used for the upkeep of the organization. Back in the day I had heard about an unreleased Prince track called "Horny Pony." No recorded track anywhere. I used my connects and contacted Controversy music and got a nice little letter along with the sheet music. It was a weird phone call though, I swear I was speaking to P directly. lol

Prince may have written most of the stuff attributed to him, but during his Purple Rain days in particular, he was generous, adding John L. Nelson and others to some of the writer credits. Sending a few $ their way. That's not to say they didn't contribute to the tracks, but there WERE those tracks that had additional writer credits with people not thought to be associated with the tracks.

I'm eventually gonna do a little post on Purple Rain. I have a copy in my house of one of P's signed contracts and I wanted to upload it for my story. If I can ever find the darn thing.

Thanks for sharing the stories. Yeah P gave some royalties, notably to Sheila (Romance 1600) and Carmen. But does it mean that if I cover Sugar Walls I have to credit Prince or am I free to write Alexander Nevermind?

Regarding ASCAP Prince is INDEED still there, IDK what happened that other day when I tried to access he wasn't appearing on the database, now I've realized u CAN'T click on his name as a writer if u find a song BUT u do if u click on Controversy Music. It still makes it harder because he used several other publishing names (Tionna music, Girlsongs, etc.) so it makes the search harder if udk the publishing company

nobias said:

--I think those were usually casual agreements between the artist as far as who got credit on the albums. There was no set method in place that needed to be followed. Prince's stuff was my personal project and was ALWAYS deceptive. It would say Jamie Starr on the cd, but aint no Jamie registered on the writer credits. Same with Alexander Nevermind and all the others. More likely than not, if P wrote the song, it came out listing someone else as writers, and Sinead re-did it, she'd reflect the previous album credits. Then the ASCAP-ians would sort out what was actually provided to us and the copyright office. His stuff was fun because it was a puzzle in some respects. You had to be a bit of a detective. It was if you got to peek inside of the mystique he was creating. Very cool times.

.

Nobias, I could read your stories all day! Your comments in this thread provide us with a look inside ASCAP (fascinating about the listening rooms and the kind of research you guys did there. Never would have guessed they were nonprofit!) and have been very enlightening by providing us with a more accurate sense of how prolific Prince can be with his songwriting. Does my heart good to know he had someone at ASCAP personally looking out for him, making sure he was getting paid what he was owed. He has more than earned the fruits of his labors.

.

I read comments on this website from time to time that make him out to be too focused on his earnings. (I, for one, would not hold it against him or anyone else to protect their assets. Plus he has more vastly more intellectual property to protect than probably almost any other musical artist), But in another one of your posts, your account goes a long way in confirming longstanding suspicions of mine that he has been sharing songwriting credits on the protege albums going back to the 80's, to a far greater extent than the average fan realizes. And possibly even one or two artists he collaborated with in the past, who were not affiliates of his camp. Great to get a real insider's view of this side of Prince, a guy sharing a bit of that limelight with his Dad, his friends and fellow artists and singers. Nice to know at the end of the day, he's human like the rest of us.

.

Great story about "Horny Pony." We know he's not afraid of getting his feet wet on the business side of things, so it probably was him who picked up the phone when you called Controversy music. . If I were you I'd trust my instincts on that. Looking forward to reading more of your posts. Thanks so much for sharing.

Bluu said:

nobias said:

--I think those were usually casual agreements between the artist as far as who got credit on the albums. There was no set method in place that needed to be followed. Prince's stuff was my personal project and was ALWAYS deceptive. It would say Jamie Starr on the cd, but aint no Jamie registered on the writer credits. Same with Alexander Nevermind and all the others. More likely than not, if P wrote the song, it came out listing someone else as writers, and Sinead re-did it, she'd reflect the previous album credits. Then the ASCAP-ians would sort out what was actually provided to us and the copyright office. His stuff was fun because it was a puzzle in some respects. You had to be a bit of a detective. It was if you got to peek inside of the mystique he was creating. Very cool times.

.

Nobias, I could read your stories all day! Your comments in this thread provide us with a look inside ASCAP (fascinating about the listening rooms and the kind of research you guys did there. Never would have guessed they were nonprofit!) and have been very enlightening by providing us with a more accurate sense of how prolific Prince can be with his songwriting. Does my heart good to know he had someone at ASCAP personally looking out for him, making sure he was getting paid what he was owed. He has more than earned the fruits of his labors.

.

I read comments on this website from time to time that make him out to be too focused on his earnings. (I, for one, would not hold it against him or anyone else to protect their assets. Plus he has more vastly more intellectual property to protect than probably almost any other musical artist), But in another one of your posts, your account goes a long way in confirming longstanding suspicions of mine that he has been sharing songwriting credits on the protege albums going back to the 80's, to a far greater extent than the average fan realizes. And possibly even one or two artists he collaborated with in the past, who were not affiliates of his camp. Great to get a real insider's view of this side of Prince, a guy sharing a bit of that limelight with his Dad, his friends and fellow artists and singers. Nice to know at the end of the day, he's human like the rest of us.

.

Great story about "Horny Pony." We know he's not afraid of getting his feet wet on the business side of things, so it probably was him who picked up the phone when you called Controversy music. . If I were you I'd trust my instincts on that. Looking forward to reading more of your posts. Thanks so much for sharing.

Thank you Bluu. That made my day. And I really DO think it was P I spoke to. It was just too weird a call. But weird in that Prince way. Like I was Vanessa Bartholemew (remember those phone segues on the symbol album with Kirstie Alley?). VERY much like that. Like I was being vetted and once he felt I was cool (whoever that was on the phone), he sent it with no problem.

I think he has always been very concerned about being exploited financially, but has his moments of generosity too. We hear about him collecting those coins, but we don't hear much about him sharing them. But he does.