Anji said:

I see.

Anji said:

R.Kelly&Dr.Dre:it was there time to shine Pure&Simple.regardless of How Great a Talent Prince is&whatnot there is that thing called it's time for someone else's time in the "SPOTLIGHT".the Thing was that Prince didn't lose Props For His Jams&influence but everybody has there time to shine.R.Kelly as I've Pointed out before has been able to Bring R&B,Pop&Hip-Hop Together as One.Dr.Dre lined Himself up with the Right People&the Cat had the Songs&also Played the Game&went with the Flow but did it in a Raw Way.Image&Presentation Come into Place here as well IMHO.

mistermaxxx said:

I understand and accept this point of view, maxxx, but are you in any way surprised that a man wearing copious quantities of make-up, sporting a 'typhoon' do and wearing stilettos, did not resonate with popular hip-hop culture?

This specific aspect of the debate has little to do with innovating beats, but alot to do with how Prince could never have been perceived as being 'ghetto' during the 90s. That respect was, and still is, essential in popular hip-hop and R'n'B culture and in many ways, 'carried' producers like R. Kelly and Dr. Dre into mainstream consciousness.

.
[This message was edited Sun Mar 23 0:14:04 PST 2003 by Anji]

Anji said:

the thing I hear when Prince is mentioned amongest Folks that use to Dig Him when it comes to Image:is the Cut-Out Pants leading Him into more Parody of Himself.His Image took a Pounding just like MJ's during that time period.in the 80's that Style&Image was the Cutting Edge but suddenly when Rap-Hip/Hop took over everything by storm 80's Black Pop Stars got Precieved as being Really Soft.but again if You bring the Music fully then things like that can be overlooked because even during Prince's 80's Hey-day when folks would say&Comment on Him His Music was tight&it kept the Focus on the main thing.but in the 90's His Music Fell Off IMHO&He also got Burned out&Desperate all at once trying to Juggle a whole New Way of Playing the Game.the funny thing Prince hadn't played that Game Before but ever Since the "Black Album" well truth be told "Under the Cherry Moon" had Him losing some of His Spark in certain Circles&then The"Black Album" truly showed Him palying catch up Musically.Cherry Moon Exposed Him trying to Be Down after He had Bottled&Sold that Image on Morris Day Here He was trying to make it work on Himself&It never Connected.so the "Black Album" was a Part 2 of that but that started the desperate attempt at Being Something more than He was IMHO.The Cat was Cool without doing much but when He tried to be all up in people's face's&whatnot He got Corny in a Hurry.

Yes, of course, the let’s-blame-rap-for-everything-that-you-don’t-like-about-Prince argument. It ruined the 90s, blah blah blah.

There’s no denying that Prince was shooting for the top with “Diamonds & Pearls”, but how much of that album was actually rap? I haven’t counted the number of minutes, but there isn’t a single rap song on it, only rap incorporated into small parts of his fusion style of pop, R&B, rock, gospel and jazz. But I forgot, he made fun of rap on record and long before that he even slighted jazz. I suppose that means he can never grow out of his previous bigotry and expand as an artist or else he’s a hypocrite, right? I think the true hypocrites are those who never grow or change.

Prince to me seems to be one of the rare musicians who doesn’t see music as categories but rather possibilities. Thankfully he didn’t listen to this criticism and we get to enjoy “Days of Wild”, “Face Down”, “Come On (remix)”, “Sexy M.F.” -- four of his greatest funk works, the first of which is up there with the funk masterpieces “Housequake” and “DMSR”. Yes, he’s created plenty of mediocre songs that incorporate rap as well, but so has he with every other style.

There’s very little doubt Prince has created music for some of the wrong reasons, but only a small part of it was rap, but nevertheless it seems to get a disproportionate amount of the blame. Perhaps his first record produced for partially the wrong reasons was the “The Black Album”, ironically the record in which there was no rap at all, but rather only a diss at tone-deaf rappers. A subject that, by the way, is more relevant than ever. But I forgot, people like “The Black Album”, so its authenticity is rarely ever questioned. It’s only the stuff you don’t like that could possibly have less-than-noble intentions.

And just because you choose to use a particular style in your music, doesn’t mean you have to be innovative. No one is saying Prince is Public Enemy when he uses rap or Duke Ellington when he calls upon jazz. To me these are just unrealistic expectations put on by fans who want to only hear genius. Well genius is never that clean and neat and you don’t grow as a musician by just continuing to play that which you are best at. Not everything Miles Davis tried was successful, but he kept trying to reach beyond his comfort zone. Without “The Family” album and Madhouse projects we don’t have “Xpectation” and perhaps at some point down the road with continued growth and evolution I’ll be able to say without “Xpectation” we don’t have his latest creation which is on par with “Bitches Brew.”

Thankfully Prince continues to use all the colors in the box, despite the many people who continue to want to put him in a limiting space, a space that not coincidentally usually shares the same volume as its listener.

The important thing is that as an artist Prince seems to be very much back on track and inspired again. And that has absolutely nothing to do with his current or future choices in musical style.

Oh yeah, the subject was rockabilly. Just another flavor to “Jack U Off”. But he's not as great as Elvis was at rockabilly, so perhaps I should dismiss it and diss it and call him a joke for even trying. After all, what does he know about rockabilly? Stay in your box, Prince. Stay in your box. I know what's best for you.

---
Just having some fun taking the other side of the issue, as I get tired seeing the same viewpoint.
[This message was edited Sun Mar 23 1:42:14 PST 2003 by Brendan]

Brendan said:

Nice argument, Brendan. I think the bolded statement captures perfectly one of the pertinent reasons why Prince fails to continue to satisfy some of his most ardent followers e.g. The Revolution crowd.

Like you suggested, there are countless examples of Prince using styles of music but not quite 'living upto' the standards set by his predecessors. Very few issues, if any, are made about those songs and their respective styles/influences.

I think Prince's employment of rap and R'n'B tends to receive the poorest reception because many of his most ardent fans stemmed from a basic interest in music that is vastly different from 'hip-hop culture', hence their adjustment is that much more stagnated.

.
[This message was edited Sun Mar 23 5:49:51 PST 2003 by Anji]

And yes, Jack U Off, is another example.

Anji said:

Oh yes, even more specifically the Wendy and Lisa crowd. If these people could just expand their horizons not only would they be able to enjoy a lot more Prince music, but much more importantly they would enjoy a lot more music in general.

And getting back to rap and jazz, it’s fascinating to me how these two musical genres seem to produce the most ardent (some would call it bigoted) fans.

If you dare even use the word jazz or rap in explaining the make-up of a particular Prince song you immediately attract the protectors of the genres who will laugh at you for calling Prince a jazz or rap artist. Never mind that you are doing no such thing, that’s all they hear.

I guess if I compared apples to oranges I’d being coming to similar conclusions. I mean after all, Prince’s tiny incorporation of rap into his sound certainly pales in comparison to Tupac Shakur’s amazing contributions to the hip-hop world and “Xpectation” and Madhouse pale in comparison to Miles Davis massive output in that genre. Well of course that’s true. But why on earth even make such a comparison? Prince isn’t really accepted in any musical genre as a giant or pioneer, save perhaps the funk field where he at least has some minority support for those that think outside the genre.

But Prince is one of the greatest musicians of the 20th century because of how he has so uniquely and prolifically fused that which came before him. His mark is indelible, but those who so passionately compartmentalize music will likely never see it.

Interestingly this jazz and rap phenomenon doesn’t happen nearly as much with the other genres (excepting perhaps classical). If Prince plays a blues song, or incorporates the blues into one of his compositions you don’t have people coming out of the woodwork to say things like: “Are you saying he’s a blues artist? That’s laughable! Have you ever heard Robert Johnson? Prince hasn’t done one innovative thing in the blues. I know the blues and Prince ain’t no blues artist!”

You know, you're right! He's a musician and one of the greatest.

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[This message was edited Sun Mar 23 14:39:01 PST 2003 by Brendan]

I think Prince does things with a mixture of a lot of reasons and elements.Nothing is ,usually,so easy as just attempts at mass apeal with a really intelligent person nd artist,in my opinion.I think Prince does what he does.I really don't think the "rock-a-billy" style was selling all thatwell,was it?And not with topics sucha s jacking someone off.I know I ,immediately,loved EVERY style of music he did back then without hesitation.It spoke to me.And ,believe me,I didn't grow up anywhere where that style of rock was being played or heard.I loved it immediately.

The rap thing is sometimes more calculated,in my opinion,fo sales purposes,but more,to me, in terms of proving to ppl that say he can't do something or that he isn't relevant anymore.I really think that as the main motivation.He felt he was backed up against a wall.But,also,there were his surounding influencesand the need,like Miles had,tow ant to get Blacks to think of him a being cool again.


I am a musical person in many ways.And in thoseways,I am a musical chameleon or whore.There is no rhyme or reason or reasan easy way to figure out where this came from.There was no abundance of musical influence in my childhood ,other than a natural hungr for sound.I kept my mind extremely open and have hardly ever heard a strain of sound I didn't find something redeemable or enjoyable.This has been a point of madness for ppl because they wat to figure you out.Surely,you can't like all this that yous ay.Surely,there is an "angle".You must play "white" music to get white girls and "black" music to stay hip on teh streets. The way I see the world I think Princ just loves music.He wants to play it all.It may not be so calculated,ya' know?

There are plenty of examples where rap has featured in Prince's earlier work but not received the 'almost' unaninimous backlash of his 90's work. 'Almost' every fan would class Irresistible Bitch and Housequake as all-time Prince classics, for example.

This entire debate could possibly be the result of the 80's body of work being more successful than the 90's, and therefore any style of music that featured predominantly within the last decade, such as R'n'B and rap, will inevitably be criticised as being below par by Prince's standard.

I'm sure if 'rock-a-billy' songs featured heavily in Prince's music within the 90s, it would probably receive just as much backlash as his rap and R'n'B efforts. The same can be seen with his interests in jazz nowadays. Ultimately, if certain fans don't enjoy the musical directions that Prince seeks to follow, who's really missing out?

lovebizzare said:

Who said True Fans are not really into his 90's music, I'm willing to bet that I am a bigger fan than you and have been much longer than you. So speak for you self. As far as the Rap thing, Prince has always added every type of music to his music, opera, jazz, R&B, Rock, Ballads, country, cabaret, big band and even rap. I read all the comments about his rap songs and how its not real or what ever, but I think you all don't like it because it shows his African American side and you just don't like that. Most people on the org don't like rap period. Why? because it is majority Black People that does it. Just be real and stop trying to hide behind, he was trying to tap into a certain society. etc. Just stop fronting and be real and find the short comming in your own views and get over it, the world is a much happier place by including everybodies culture, all you can do it grow into stronger people. Please stop being Cowards.

Anji said:

Anji, I really dig your discussions, You consider all angles and you don't seem to judge any of them, Which is very unique and rare. Your views makes people think or at least consider something else, I wish more people here could be as open as you. Keep it up, I always go to bed with a smile after reading all the crap here and then read your comments, your comments makes me feel good to be apart of the org, thanks.

jazzy328is said:

I love Rap,Hip-Hop but Prince was downRight Corny&Laughable trying to add it into His Overall Mix.I think Prince is at His Best using Elements of things than Outright doing it.His "Gangsta Takes" Were just asking to Have "In Livin' Color" Spoof His Ass in a Bad Way IMHO.Prince is already a Cool Cat but when He does things like that He Became not only a Wanna-Be Studio "G" but also a Walking Wanna-Be "G" out of His Area IMHO&a Bad Comedy.

maxxx, do you find comedic value in the song Days Of Wild?

Anji said:

that was a Decent Jam but Prince's Rapping Style was trying to Either Sound like LL.COOL J or Snoppy DOGGY DOGG He couldn't get it quite Right IMHO.but I Noticed those Two Rappers were what He was trying to go after in His Own Way.

mistermaxxx said:

First of all, Snoop and LL don't sound alike, their styles are totally different, And Prince sounds like Prince in that song, In the pope he sounds like Prince and nobody I can think of, You say comedic value, Well Will Smith raps are comical, but it works, When Prince Raps in concert the people go wild, In all the concerts I've been to. In muse to the Pharoah he sounds like Snoop, Because it worked in Muse. Prince does so many things good that it makes him Good, is he a better Rapper than rappers, (some) but not better than the best, But all rappers do is Rap. Prince Raps, sings, and plays in his songs. Why would he do that when he can do this? As Prince would say.

Im not sure if it was his musical influences as Ive always found it strange that these songs only appear in his earlier years & he aint done any more since really

What was that song he did on the muppets?? Did he just make it up?? I thought that was a strange segment..

thecloud9mission said:

So what was it then?

jazzy328is said:

I agree with you on a few counts. Likewise, I really can't imagine Prince wanting to consciously sound like Snoop Doggy Dogg, and I hear very little similarity with LL. Cool J.

Regardless, could the same argument not apply to Prince's influences in other genres of music, for example Sly and The Family Stone's funk? Again, I don't hear the dissent or animosity towards that influence / immitation. Why is that?

Is 'Girl 'O' My Dreams' rock-a-billy or jazz influenced, or both?


[This message was edited Mon Mar 24 14:37:50 PST 2003 by Anji]

jazzy328is said:

I never said Snoop&LL Sounded alike."My Name is Prince" is very much based on LL's "Mama Said Knock You Out"."Acknowledge Me" was Prince's attempt at Snoop Doggy Dogg as was "Hide The Bone".it's all in His Vocal Presentation.don't even get started on His "Chronic Freeze" Mixing that was a direct take on Dr.Dre&Crew.

mistermaxxx said:

maxxx, are you seriously suggesting that the Chronic Freeze sound was influenced by Dr. Dre? Name examples.

Anji said:

"18&Over","Beautiful expereince Re-Mixes","elements of Letitgo","Days of Wild","Hide The Bone".

Anji said:

in the same vein as "Courtin' Time"&then you have your answer.

what about the original demo of"tick tick bang"
that's very rockabilly
and all my

mistermaxxx said:

Do you think Prince was showing a sign of respect to the 'original' innovators in that genre? And what's really different about this situation? Hasn't he always shown a healthy respect for his musical influences / interests?

Anji said:

He showed Respect but unlike back in the day when He would Manipulate His Influences He was all out right with the Stylings&whatnot.for instance back in the day He would drive up on His Influences but wouldn't out right step directly into it fully.He was more Creative in the Past at using different stuff early on&During His Peak.

mistermaxx said:

I agree, Prince had different creative desires and instincts during his commercial peak and trough eras.

As I alluded to on another thread: what many 'fans' usually fail to recognise, and as a result, tend to become overly critical with what they consider to be his 'purely commercial' 90's efforts, is that Prince has always made a habit of recording hit singles on every mainstream album he's released. Whether they chart or not, is another matter entirely.

The undeniable facts are that the 80's Prince was a hit, and the 90's Prince wasn't. However, I don't think that's solely due to innovation or creative differences in his approach to musical influences / interests. There are significant other factors involved.

I find it very interesting to note how it's usually the albums that don't make a significant impact on the charts, which tend to receive alot of criticism from his so called 'true fans.' What do you think, maxxx?