Was just reading some threads and the topic of Prince and lyrical "social commentary" came up. Prince's lyrics are different than Curtis Mayfield, Gil Scot Heron, Dylan, Funkadelic, Sly & the Family Stone, or Joni Mitchell but they are compelling in their own way. What are some of your fav's? Any on PlecElec or AoA? I no particular order I like:

1. "Sexuality" from "Controversy"

2. "Sign of the Times" from "Sign of the Times"

3. "Fixurlifeup" from "PlecElec"

4. "Pop Life" from "Around the World in a Day"

5. "Partyup" from "Dirty Mind"

6. "Marz" from "PlecElec"

7. "When Will We B Paid" (Staple Singers cover) single release

8. "Money Don't Matter Tonight" from "Diamonds and Pearls"

9. "Uptown" from "Dirty Mind"

10."Controversy" from "Controversy"

I define social commentary broadly to include the intersections of identity (gender-race-sexual orientation), SES and social justice. Prince's lyrics are alot about "feel" rather than "precision" and to me that's part of his charm. Another poster said on another thread that if you just relax and enjoy the music the meanings become more clear in time. (Kinda like Steely Dan lyrics which I understood more as I aged). I'm curious about what you all like and why you like it!

[Edited 3/3/15 2:30am]

I think we're on the wrong forum here, but I'd like to add The Undertaker, Race and Superhero to the list. The early 90s was when he wrote some of his best songs about this subject. Maybe thinking of himself as a "slave" made him look around for other situations of injustice, I don't know, just guessing.

I always think what happened with Prince was that he came to prominence at a time when the Reaganite conservative backlash was getting underway, and the fact that he was this kinda punk-styled young libertine - sexually ambiguous, with a mixed band, and a 'we-don't-care-we-just-want-to-party' type of attitude going on in his lyrics - meant that people assumed his politics were liberal. Perhaps you could even justifiably say that there was a certain politics in that, in and of itself. I think, though, in many ways, that individualistic focus and the shift to a kind of identity politics was, in itself, part of the backlash and movement away from a lot of the 60-style social activism in which struggles around identity were strongly linked to social justice, and that they were something much more about substantial material equality of opportunity.

I've always had the impression he himself was quite apolitical, and saw things more in quite atomised spiritual terms - or that he'd just never really formulated a coherent political position out of the various strands he bounces between. If you think of what he's written on race, for example, it shifts around: in Controversy, he's a young libertine dismissing the question 'Am I Black or White?' as just so much chatter; but in Race he's advocating a universalistic liberal position (so we're into MLK integrationist territory); but then more recent songs like Family Name or Avalanche represent his attempts to try on a kind of Black nationalism. (And, IIRC, he also put some money into the movie Malcolm X.) Perhaps you could say that his views have simply evolved over time - and I think there's a bit of truth in that, and the times have changed too - but then you take a song like Dreamer and he's right back to his MLK-influenced liberalism ("21st century / What a shame race still matters"). And, for what it's worth, I've always thought he wore that more easily than his Black nationalist pose - and that, since King and that sort of 60s integrationism crops up in his own personal narratives (Sacrifice, Dreamer, etc), I always take it to be his 'natural home'. Mind you, he also seems more comfortable ascribing himself a more singular racial identity himself these days ("You can't leave a Black man in this state", etc), though perhaps that's in a more 'private' capacity.

He's also flirted with very conservative sentiments - on, say, 1+1+1 is 3, and in his comments about how he perceives Muslim societies, not to mention the quickly-withdrawn "sticking it wherever" interview comments. So I suppose I don't necessarily think of him as a big 'social justice' type of guy. I would say his politics are probably more along the lines of JB's I Don't Want Nobody to Give Me Nothing - which you might even call a kind of 'small-c' conservative, though I think he'd think of that as something leading to progressive effects.

All that said (!), I like Dreamer, Sacrifice, the stuff he wrote for Mavis (U Will Be Moved, The Undertaker, The Voice), Family Name (except for the Jewish-sounding names, which seems ill-judged to me). Sign O' The Times is also a good song - though, for all its being his most celebrated piece of social commentary, it must be pointed out that it doesn't really 'say' very much about anything.

[Edited 3/3/15 9:36am]

Very good summation by deebee

deebee said:

I always think what happened with Prince was that he came to prominence at a time when the Reaganite conservative backlash was getting underway, and the fact that he was this kinda punk-styled young libertine - sexually ambiguous, with a mixed band, and a 'we-don't-care-we-just-want-to-party' type of attitude going on in his lyrics - meant that people assumed his politics were liberal. Perhaps you could even justifiably say that there was a certain politics in that, in and of itself. I think, though, in many ways, that individualistic focus and the shift to a kind of identity politics was, in itself, part of the backlash and movement away from a lot of the 60-style social activism in which struggles around identity were strongly linked to social justice, and that they were something much more about substantial material equality of opportunity.

I've always had the impression he himself was quite apolitical, and saw things more in quite atomised spiritual terms - or that he'd just never really formulated a coherent political position out of the various strands he bounces between. If you think of what he's written on race, for example, it shifts around: in Controversy, he's a young libertine dismissing the question 'Am I Black or White?' as just so much chatter; but in Race he's advocating a universalistic liberal position (so we're into MLK integrationist territory); but then more recent songs like Family Name or Avalanche represent his attempts to try on a kind of Black nationalism. (And, IIRC, he also put some money into the movie Malcolm X.) Perhaps you could say that his views have simply evolved over time - and I think there's a bit of truth in that, and the times have changed too - but then you take a song like Dreamer and he's right back to his MLK-influenced liberalism ("21st century / What a shame race still matters"). And, for what it's worth, I've always thought he wore that more easily than his Black nationalist pose - and that, since King and that sort of 60s integrationism crops up in his own personal narratives (Sacrifice, Dreamer, etc), I always take it to be his 'natural home'. Mind you, he also seems more comfortable ascribing himself a more singular racial identity himself these days ("You can't leave a Black man in this state", etc), though perhaps that's in a more 'private' capacity.

He's also flirted with very conservative sentiments - on, say, 1+1+1 is 3, and in his comments about how he perceives Muslim societies, not to mention the quickly-withdrawn "sticking it wherever" interview comments. So I suppose I don't necessarily think of him as a big 'social justice' type of guy. I would say his politics are probably more along the lines of JB's I Don't Want Nobody to Give Me Nothing - which you might even call a kind of 'small-c' conservative, though I think he'd think of that as something leading to progressive effects.

All that said (!), I like Dreamer, Sacrifice, the stuff he wrote for Mavis (U Will Be Moved, The Undertaker, The Voice), Family Name (except for the Jewish-sounding names, which seems ill-judged to me). Sign O' The Times is also a good song - though, for all its being his most celebrated piece of social commentary, it must be pointed out that it doesn't really 'say' very much about anything.

[Edited 3/3/15 9:36am]

deebee, excellent comments from you. as someone who (also?) came of age along with Prince I thought the social commentary wasn't so much "Black Nationalist" but more about personal freedom and expression for so many people especially post "Black Power" "Civil Rights" "integration" generation African Americans, many who were the children of the newly middle class or residing in predominantly White spaces. It also spoke to women and men who are straight, bi, gay trans alike without saying so (even though post-Larry Graham conversion to Jehovah Witness or 7th Day Adventist Prince might claim anti gay positions).

The personal to me becomes the political and his lyrical empowerment of women is pretty revolutionary compared to his "peers." It was rebellious in that way and "anti-racist" with some very coded language. "Sexuality" is very much about anti-racism as it is about sexual freedom. "Uptown" is in the same vein and all the S & M language in 1999 was very much a nod to non-mainstream sexuality as well as empowerment of women. I think we miss Prince's social commentary because of our own positionality and blind spots? Lately, he writes about "self-help" "bootstraps" stuff but its directed to his own in ways that don't make hime judgemental or Cosbyish. I'm listening to MPLS and Lotus Flow3r which I just purchased months after AoA and PlecElec and noticing a good deal of social commentary. Like these lyrics on "Ol Skool Company": "wheres the real drummer?" [anti-technology] "if the White House is Black we got to take the radio back....power to the people" [anti-low brow Black music brainwash]

[Edited 3/9/15 3:42am]

mrgone777 said:

deebee said:

I always think what happened with Prince was that he came to prominence at a time when the Reaganite conservative backlash was getting underway, and the fact that he was this kinda punk-styled young libertine - sexually ambiguous, with a mixed band, and a 'we-don't-care-we-just-want-to-party' type of attitude going on in his lyrics - meant that people assumed his politics were liberal. Perhaps you could even justifiably say that there was a certain politics in that, in and of itself. I think, though, in many ways, that individualistic focus and the shift to a kind of identity politics was, in itself, part of the backlash and movement away from a lot of the 60-style social activism in which struggles around identity were strongly linked to social justice, and that they were something much more about substantial material equality of opportunity.

I've always had the impression he himself was quite apolitical, and saw things more in quite atomised spiritual terms - or that he'd just never really formulated a coherent political position out of the various strands he bounces between. If you think of what he's written on race, for example, it shifts around: in Controversy, he's a young libertine dismissing the question 'Am I Black or White?' as just so much chatter; but in Race he's advocating a universalistic liberal position (so we're into MLK integrationist territory); but then more recent songs like Family Name or Avalanche represent his attempts to try on a kind of Black nationalism. (And, IIRC, he also put some money into the movie Malcolm X.) Perhaps you could say that his views have simply evolved over time - and I think there's a bit of truth in that, and the times have changed too - but then you take a song like Dreamer and he's right back to his MLK-influenced liberalism ("21st century / What a shame race still matters"). And, for what it's worth, I've always thought he wore that more easily than his Black nationalist pose - and that, since King and that sort of 60s integrationism crops up in his own personal narratives (Sacrifice, Dreamer, etc), I always take it to be his 'natural home'. Mind you, he also seems more comfortable ascribing himself a more singular racial identity himself these days ("You can't leave a Black man in this state", etc), though perhaps that's in a more 'private' capacity.

He's also flirted with very conservative sentiments - on, say, 1+1+1 is 3, and in his comments about how he perceives Muslim societies, not to mention the quickly-withdrawn "sticking it wherever" interview comments. So I suppose I don't necessarily think of him as a big 'social justice' type of guy. I would say his politics are probably more along the lines of JB's I Don't Want Nobody to Give Me Nothing - which you might even call a kind of 'small-c' conservative, though I think he'd think of that as something leading to progressive effects.

All that said (!), I like Dreamer, Sacrifice, the stuff he wrote for Mavis (U Will Be Moved, The Undertaker, The Voice), Family Name (except for the Jewish-sounding names, which seems ill-judged to me). Sign O' The Times is also a good song - though, for all its being his most celebrated piece of social commentary, it must be pointed out that it doesn't really 'say' very much about anything.

[Edited 3/3/15 9:36am]

deebee, excellent comments from you. as someone who (also?) came of age along with Prince I thought the social commentary wasn't so much "Black Nationalist" but more about personal freedom and expression for so many people especially post "Black Power" "Civil Rights" "integration" generation African Americans, many who were the children of the newly middle class or residing in predominantly White spaces. It also spoke to women and men who are straight, bi, gay trans alike without saying so (even though post-Larry Graham conversion to Jehovah Witness or 7th Day Adventist Prince might claim anti gay positions).

The personal to me becomes the political and his lyrical empowerment of women is pretty revolutionary compared to his "peers." It was rebellious in that way and "anti-racist" with some very coded language. "Sexuality" is very much about anti-racism as it is about sexual freedom. "Uptown" is in the same vein and all the S & M language in 1999 was very much a nod to non-mainstream sexuality as well as empowerment of women. I think we miss Prince's social commentary because of our own positionality and blind spots? Lately, he writes about "self-help" "bootstraps" stuff but its directed to his own in ways that don't make hime judgemental or Cosbyish. I'm listening to MPLS and Lotus Flow3r which I just purchased months after AoA and PlecElec and noticing a good deal of social commentary. Like these lyrics on "Ol Skool Company": "wheres the real drummer?" [anti-technology] "if the White House is Black we got to take the radio back....power to the people" [anti-low brow Black music brainwash]

[Edited 3/9/15 3:42am]

Yes, I agree up to a point - but I suppose I do still think his views have bounced around quite a lot, and some have been more progressive than others. I mentioned once before, around the time of his comments on how he liked the strict gender roles he perceived to be in place in Muslim societies that he'd often come off as a bit chauvinist when it comes to women - with a lot of his sex fantasies being about total control, which then became a kind of religious edict when he became a JW convert (part of the "theocratic order" he affirms in 1+1+1 is 3, etc). The orger bellanoche pointed out that he actually had a pretty good record of promoting female musicians in his bands, as well as in other professional roles, and not just as some kind of gimmick or window dressing (this was before 3EG!), and that that ran counter to the chauvinism narrative. It was a good point, and I what I took from it was that he's someone who has a lot of different sides to him, which don't always coalesce or add up to some singular idea.

I think that's also true of his thoughts on race, where it seems to me he's tried on various perspectives over the years, which probably reflect different currents of thought that have been important to him at different times, but which aren't necessarily all moving in the same direction. So I tend to think some of it comes from the more integrationist perspective of that generation that you mention, but that he's also shifted towards, or at least tried out, other more cultural nationalist currents of thought that come out in Avalanche, etc - though he's never just settled on one line. I guess it's all part of what keeps us interested!

I see what you mean about social commentary, when it's defined in quite a broad sense. And, tbh, I much prefer hearing him sound off about something less obviously 'political' that's important to him - say, the thing about technology and 'real drummers' - as there's probably all sorts of things wrapped up in that (e.g. memories of music in childhood, the outlet that playing in bands offered him as a kid, etc). I like hearing about that - or even his more personal memories of Civil Rights ("1967, in a bus marked 'Public Schools' / Me and a group of unsuspecting political tools..."), etc. I tend to tune out a bit when he gets more dogmatic, or when he gives us a half-baked lecture (like the spoken intro to Family Name, or even the parts spoken by Lianne La Havas on AOA). I suppose that connects to something in me that would like to reassure him that whatever he is is enough, and that he doesn't have to impress us by fronting like he has it all figured out - because none of us have that.

I suppose I also fear that, these days, he rattles around in Paisley Park, wandering past six-foot murals of himself, a bit disconnected from the world outside, and that impacts on the kind of social commentary he creates. I often feel that when people are inclined to hitch their hopes to very firm dogmatic positions about what this 'fallen world' is lacking, it can sometimes be a sign of a kind of lack of being nourished by real human relationships in the here and now. I personally found the punchline of AOA ("All of it is you!") a terribly lonely conclusion to come to. (Again, this could all be me projecting!)

[Edited 3/14/15 9:37am]

deebee said:

I suppose I also fear that, these days, he rattles around in Paisley Park, wandering past six-foot murals of himself, a bit disconnected from the world outside, and that impacts on the kind of social commentary he creates. I often feel that when people are inclined to hitch their hopes to very firm dogmatic positions about what this 'fallen world' is lacking, it can sometimes be a sign of a kind of lack of being nourished by real human relationships in the here and now. I personally found the punchline of AOA ("All of it is you!") a terribly lonely conclusion to come to. (Again, this could all be me projecting!)

That's laser-accurate projection.

deebee said:

mrgone777 said:

deebee, excellent comments from you. as someone who (also?) came of age along with Prince I thought the social commentary wasn't so much "Black Nationalist" but more about personal freedom and expression for so many people especially post "Black Power" "Civil Rights" "integration" generation African Americans, many who were the children of the newly middle class or residing in predominantly White spaces. It also spoke to women and men who are straight, bi, gay trans alike without saying so (even though post-Larry Graham conversion to Jehovah Witness or 7th Day Adventist Prince might claim anti gay positions).

The personal to me becomes the political and his lyrical empowerment of women is pretty revolutionary compared to his "peers." It was rebellious in that way and "anti-racist" with some very coded language. "Sexuality" is very much about anti-racism as it is about sexual freedom. "Uptown" is in the same vein and all the S & M language in 1999 was very much a nod to non-mainstream sexuality as well as empowerment of women. I think we miss Prince's social commentary because of our own positionality and blind spots? Lately, he writes about "self-help" "bootstraps" stuff but its directed to his own in ways that don't make hime judgemental or Cosbyish. I'm listening to MPLS and Lotus Flow3r which I just purchased months after AoA and PlecElec and noticing a good deal of social commentary. Like these lyrics on "Ol Skool Company": "wheres the real drummer?" [anti-technology] "if the White House is Black we got to take the radio back....power to the people" [anti-low brow Black music brainwash]

[Edited 3/9/15 3:42am]

Yes, I agree up to a point - but I suppose I do still think his views have bounced around quite a lot, and some have been more progressive than others. I mentioned once before, around the time of his comments on how he liked the strict gender roles he perceived to be in place in Muslim societies that he'd often come off as a bit chauvinist when it comes to women - with a lot of his sex fantasies being about total control, which then became a kind of religious edict when he became a JW convert (part of the "theocratic order" he affirms in 1+1+1 is 3, etc). The orger bellanoche pointed out that he actually had a pretty good record of promoting female musicians in his bands, as well as in other professional roles, and not just as some kind of gimmick or window dressing (this was before 3EG!), and that that ran counter to the chauvinism narrative. It was a good point, and I what I took from it was that he's someone who has a lot of different sides to him, which don't always coalesce or add up to some singular idea.

I think that's also true of his thoughts on race, where it seems to me he's tried on various perspectives over the years, which probably reflect different currents of thought that have been important to him at different times, but which aren't necessarily all moving in the same direction. So I tend to think some of it comes from the more integrationist perspective of that generation that you mention, but that he's also shifted towards, or at least tried out, other more cultural nationalist currents of thought that come out in Avalanche, etc - though he's never just settled on one line. I guess it's all part of what keeps us interested!

I see what you mean about social commentary, when it's defined in quite a broad sense. And, tbh, I much prefer hearing him sound off about something less obviously 'political' that's important to him - say, the thing about technology and 'real drummers' - as there's probably all sorts of things wrapped up in that (e.g. memories of music in childhood, the outlet that playing in bands offered him as a kid, etc). I like hearing about that - or even his more personal memories of Civil Rights ("1967, in a bus marked 'Public Schools' / Me and a group of unsuspecting political tools..."), etc. I tend to tune out a bit when he gets more dogmatic, or when he gives us a half-baked lecture (like the spoken intro to Family Name, or even the parts spoken by Lianne La Havas on AOA). I suppose that connects to something in me that would like to reassure him that whatever he is is enough, and that he doesn't have to impress us by fronting like he has it all figured out - because none of us have that.

I suppose I also fear that, these days, he rattles around in Paisley Park, wandering past six-foot murals of himself, a bit disconnected from the world outside, and that impacts on the kind of social commentary he creates. I often feel that when people are inclined to hitch their hopes to very firm dogmatic positions about what this 'fallen world' is lacking, it can sometimes be a sign of a kind of lack of being nourished by real human relationships in the here and now. I personally found the punchline of AOA ("All of it is you!") a terribly lonely conclusion to come to. (Again, this could all be me projecting!)

[Edited 3/14/15 9:37am]

deebee, beautiful and very thoughtful commentary. I like the self-awareness that you could be projecting, you might be as none of us know the cat and he WISELY protects his privacy. He isn't the only one with portraits or murals on his walls.....but as a prominent African American artist he would get skewered like Michael J (Martin Basheer style) was if the press were to invade his home I can just see it on TMZ now. But you do bring up a good point about "isolation" and i heard that really strongly in "Way Back Home" from AoA. In fact it actually moved me more than any other track on that album for that reason, seems that he is not unaware of the fortress he has created between himself and the world and at 56 he might be trying to tear that down even with the "mistakes" he has made with fans in the past.

Speaking of "mistakes" tonight for fun i just read the wiki Prince discography from 1990 up until AoA and PlecElect and I can not believe how much music he has created. Coltrane-like. Also lots of internet-related screw ups....some of them epic and maybe why people take every chance to jam it down his throat at every attempt (like many of these Org folks or the bloggers or even reviewers in public forums like Amazon.com product reviews). That said post Warners or post-Chaos it seems that so much of his music is about finding his own identity and dealing with who he really is whether it be spiritually or ethnically. The "preachy" is an artifact of exploring and finding new things out...we've all been there we're just not musical genius so we don't work it out in our art.

About the searches he has been on and confession time: I really didn't like the Prince NPG stuff from emancipation to lotus flow3r much.....and once again reading Wiki i see how so many fans (including what appears to be 60% of the people in the "org") are bitter given on all the sloppy internet stuff and attempts to control his product without guidance. Today though it seems to me he has learned though: 1) back to Warners with AoA and Plec Elect (he got the rights to his masters but Warner's promotion of this work is questionable); 2) collaboration with a new set of muses (3RDEYEGIRL & Hannah's hubbie...I love this and everything they've done); 3) having fun doing what he wants (seeing him live shows how much he loves what he is doing today). When I saw him it was mostly Plec Elec or rocked out versions of classics like "She's Always In My Hair" and because of this I love Plec Elect as a full on rock album with some fun tracks mixed. I like where he is now and despite all the intense negativity (some of it understandable now that I've read up on the NPG website debacles) he is doing some great music again....focused and with an eye towards quality.

I do enjoy your posts and will always take a careful look at what you have to say! Rock on DeeBee!