Se7en said:

datdude said:

i'm sorry but where is Bob Dylan's Housequake or James Brown's Dinner With Delores, Hendrix's Do Me Baby or Joni's Anne Christian?? So for me, on litmus test is depth/range. Dude really does cover all genres short of classical with proficiency at lhe least and genius at best, with lots of "middle of the range" stuff others would die to have in their catalogue. Answer is no for me

You had me until you name-dropped Dinner With Delores . . .

Here's the thing, I could selected any number of songs to insert instead of DWD, like When You Were Mine, etc. That's the beauty of P, and the fun of my response, hmmm, what song to pick that is the MOST unlike the artists he's being compared to. I agree that Stevie is the closest, as far as range, longetivity, talent on an instrument, and songwriting, but where's Stevie's rock epic!?

datdude said:

not really. most people are great in one realm. Prince is great in damn near everything that has to do with music and a performer.

skywalker said:

datdude said:

Here's the thing, I could selected any number of songs to insert instead of DWD, like When You Were Mine, etc. That's the beauty of P, and the fun of my response, hmmm, what song to pick that is the MOST unlike the artists he's being compared to. I agree that Stevie is the closest, as far as range, longetivity, talent on an instrument, and songwriting, but where's Stevie's rock epic!?

He doesn't have one.

So! In most ROCK circles, neither does Prince.

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

skywalker said:

datdude said: He doesn't have one.

So! In most ROCK circles, neither does Prince.

Only 4 those requiring q-tips.

Graycap23 said:

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

So! In most ROCK circles, neither does Prince.

Only 4 those requiring q-tips.

Really? Name Prince's ROCK epic? Not songs you like that Prince rocked on, either! Tell me what's considered his ROCK epic?

daingermouz2020 said:

IDK. There are a lot of talented cats out there. I will say as far as versaltility goes I cant think of an artist past of present that can go Rock,Pop,Funk, Soul,Country, Jazz,Gospel,Blues with such ease. Like If I Wasnt a fan Id never think Soft and Wet,When Doves Cry, Delirious,Courtin Time,Sweet Baby, were recorded by the same person. There should be a genre of music called prince.

Oh hell! Now y'all have got him doing country, too!

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

skywalker said:

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

Really? Name Prince's ROCK epic? Not songs you like that Prince rocked on, either! Tell me what's considered his ROCK epic?

Serious? Purple Rain is easily one of the most iconic rock/power ballads ever. Have you never picked up a copy of a guitar magazine with Prince on the cover? Typically they give their list of best Prince rock songs. Usually, Let's Go Crazy, Peach, Bambi, and Endorphin Machine make these types of lists. Are you even a fan of Prince? [Edited 11/12/14 15:22pm]

QUITE! So much so, that I do recall ALL the acclaims, accolades and criticisms that all the songs you named received from the ROCK community-- originally, hind-sightedly AND revisionist-ly.

[Edited 11/12/14 18:23pm]

so what's your point? now the CRITICS determine if he has a Rock epic or not? if you don't think he has one fine, but don't use the critics to bolster your (non)point. what's your definition of a rock epic? for me, signature guitar riff, skilled playing throughout, recognizability (even if it wasn't a hit) contenders

PR

LGC

Bambi

WYWTMSB

She's Always in My Hair (now THIS is some funk and roll; and since u like critics, NPR recently sited this as arguably his most signature guitar riff)

Electric Chair

Fury (SNL version)

Colonized Mind (maybe not a "signature riff" but all else is there)

Dreamer (a bit derivative if you want to be technical)

hell, the song Guitar

Wall of Berlin (again, lack of airplay prevents the recognizability of it, but again, all else is there)

Another Love (an instantly top 5 guitar solo!)

And I haven't even HEARD the Undertaker album

I'll stop here but again, if your criteria is different and if none of these songs don't "qualify" for u, its cool but....

GET THE UNDERTAKER

datdude said:

so what's your point? now the CRITICS determine if he has a Rock epic or not? if you don't think he has one fine, but don't use the critics to bolster your (non)point. what's your definition of a rock epic? for me, signature guitar riff, skilled playing throughout, recognizability (even if it wasn't a hit) contenders

PR

LGC

Bambi

WYWTMSB

She's Always in My Hair (now THIS is some funk and roll; and since u like critics, NPR recently sited this as arguably his most signature guitar riff)

Electric Chair

Fury (SNL version)

Colonized Mind (maybe not a "signature riff" but all else is there)

Dreamer (a bit derivative if you want to be technical)

hell, the song Guitar

Wall of Berlin (again, lack of airplay prevents the recognizability of it, but again, all else is there)

Another Love (an instantly top 5 guitar solo!)

And I haven't even HEARD the Undertaker album

I'll stop here but again, if your criteria is different and if none of these songs don't "qualify" for u, its cool but....

RS article 50 Immortal artists, 2004:

1) The Beatles
2) Bob Dylan

3) Elvis Presley

4) The Rolling Stones

5) Chuck Berry
6) Jimi Hendrix

7) James Brown

8) Little Richard
9) Aretha Franklin
10) Ray Charles

11) Bob Marley

12) The Beach Boys

13) Buddy Holly

14) Led Zeppelin

15) Stevie Wonder
16) Sam Cooke
17) Muddy Watters
18) Marvin Gaye
19) The Velvet Underground

20) Bo Diddley

21) Otis Redding
22) U2
23) Bruce Springsteen

24) Jerry Lee Lewis

25) Fats Domino

26) The Ramones

27) Nirvana

28) Prince

29) The Who
30) The Clash

31) Johnny Cash

32) Smokey Robinson and the Miracles

33) The Everly Brothers

34) Neil Young
35) Michael Jackson
36) Madonna

37) Roy Orbison

38) John Lennon

39) David Bowie
40) Simon and Garfunkel
41) The Doors
42) Van Morrison
43) Sly and the Family Stone
44) Public Enemy

45) The Byrds

46) Janis Joplin

47) Patti Smith

48) Run-DMC
49) Elton John

50) The Band

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

skywalker said:

HatrinaHaterwitz said: Serious? Purple Rain is easily one of the most iconic rock/power ballads ever. Have you never picked up a copy of a guitar magazine with Prince on the cover? Typically they give their list of best Prince rock songs. Usually, Let's Go Crazy, Peach, Bambi, and Endorphin Machine make these types of lists. Are you even a fan of Prince? [Edited 11/12/14 15:22pm]

QUITE! So much so, that I do recall ALL the acclaims, accolades and criticisms that all the songs you named received from the ROCK community-- originally, hind-sightedly AND revisionist-ly.

Great glad we are on the same page.

-

1. When I say "rock community" I mean actual rock musicians and critics...not fanboys still wearing their mullets and Master of Puppets t-shirts.

-

2. Anyone who knows anything about the "rock community" know that Prince is respected and adored for his skills on the guitar. Rock N Roll Hall of Fame first year inductee and all that. "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" perfomance. Ring any bells?

-

It was an epic performance that forced even the most devout music snob to recognize Prince as a rock/guitar god. Prince took on an Eric Clapton solo and did it better. He elevated a fucking Clapton solo. Do you know how amazing that is?

3. Did Prince not just have the #1 Rock album in America?

-

4. There are countless magazines/articles about Prince's greatness in well known and established ROCK magazines, which represent the actual ROCK community. I can give you some links if you want. Or you know, google....

[Edited 11/12/14 20:17pm]

datdude said:

so what's your point? now the CRITICS determine if he has a Rock epic or not? if you don't think he has one fine, but don't use the critics to bolster your (non)point. what's your definition of a rock epic? for me, signature guitar riff, skilled playing throughout, recognizability (even if it wasn't a hit) contenders

PR

LGC

Bambi

WYWTMSB

She's Always in My Hair (now THIS is some funk and roll; and since u like critics, NPR recently sited this as arguably his most signature guitar riff)

Electric Chair

Fury (SNL version)

Colonized Mind (maybe not a "signature riff" but all else is there)

Dreamer (a bit derivative if you want to be technical)

hell, the song Guitar

Wall of Berlin (again, lack of airplay prevents the recognizability of it, but again, all else is there)

Another Love (an instantly top 5 guitar solo!)

And I haven't even HEARD the Undertaker album

I'll stop here but again, if your criteria is different and if none of these songs don't "qualify" for u, its cool but....

I really like the way you are putting it down, dude. Well read, thorough, and substantial.

PS. you havent heard Prince guitar until you hear Bambi from the Undertaker. It will blow your mind if you can get the digital laserdisc video

skywalker said:

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

QUITE! So much so, that I do recall ALL the acclaims, accolades and criticisms that all the songs you named received from the ROCK community-- originally, hind-sightedly AND revisionist-ly.

Great glad we are on the same page.

-

1. When I say "rock community" I mean actual rock musicians and critics...not fanboys still wearing their mullets and Master of Puppets t-shirts.

-

2. Anyone who knows anything about the "rock community" know that Prince is respected and adored for his skills on the guitar. Rock N Roll Hall of Fame first year inductee and all that. "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" perfomance. Ring any bells?

-

It was an epic performance that forced even the most devout music snob to recognize Prince as a rock/guitar god. Prince took on an Eric Clapton solo and did it better. He elevated a fucking Clapton solo. Do you know how amazing that is?

3. Did Prince not just have the #1 Rock album in America?

-

4. There are countless magazines/articles about Prince's greatness in well known and established ROCK magazines, which represent the actual ROCK community. I can give you some links if you want. Or you know, google....

[Edited 11/12/14 20:17pm]

You're still missing the point. I know Prince can rock and his skills are respected. That's not what the original conversation you butted yourself into was about, though. It was about someone stating that Stevie Wonder was not on his level because Stevie doesn't have a ROCK epic - as in a song that is a ROCK epic and I replied that in most ROCK circles, neither does Prince - as in Prince does not have a song of his own that is considered a ROCK epic. You've covered everything with the exception of what we're actually talking about.


FFS, the way you people bend yourselves into pretzels over any and everything that is not completely ass slobbering, groveling-- my goodness! It's just flat out disturbing.

thedance said:

RS article 50 Immortal artists, 2004:

1) The Beatles
2) Bob Dylan

3) Elvis Presley

4) The Rolling Stones

5) Chuck Berry
6) Jimi Hendrix

7) James Brown

8) Little Richard
9) Aretha Franklin
10) Ray Charles

11) Bob Marley

12) The Beach Boys

13) Buddy Holly

14) Led Zeppelin

15) Stevie Wonder
16) Sam Cooke
17) Muddy Watters
18) Marvin Gaye
19) The Velvet Underground

20) Bo Diddley

21) Otis Redding
22) U2
23) Bruce Springsteen

24) Jerry Lee Lewis

25) Fats Domino

26) The Ramones

27) Nirvana

28) Prince

29) The Who
30) The Clash

31) Johnny Cash

32) Smokey Robinson and the Miracles

33) The Everly Brothers

34) Neil Young
35) Michael Jackson
36) Madonna

37) Roy Orbison

38) John Lennon

39) David Bowie
40) Simon and Garfunkel
41) The Doors
42) Van Morrison
43) Sly and the Family Stone
44) Public Enemy

45) The Byrds

46) Janis Joplin

47) Patti Smith

48) Run-DMC
49) Elton John

50) The Band

And number 15 is Stevie Wonder, which was my whole point in this increasingly desperate-to make-Prince-out-to-be-more-than-he-is conversation.

^ and btw f@ck Michael Jackson at number 35 on this list..

Michael Jackson did only release 2 main (solo) albums in the 80s - no way he could be more important than Prince making 10 albums, (2 of those were double albums)....

(Michael... sorry - may he R.i.p...)

JoshuaWho said:

I mean really - not just today but when you take into account the entire body of work, the career achievements, longevity, musicianship, range and depth of talent, influence, originality, and overall relevance to real music.

Art is not a competition. Try sports.

KaresB said:

datdude said:

Dude really does cover all genres short of classical with proficiency at lhe least and genius at best, with lots of "middle of the range" stuff others would die to have in their catalogue.

oh man, really??... you don't know much about music, do you...

They don't, there are many more genres Prince has never touched than genres he has

Silly question considering how inconsitant and scattershot Prince has been the majority of his career. 1978-1987 fairly consistent growth (perhaps you can quibble with AWTWIAD), then starting with the Black Album/Lovesexy its all been random with some real head scratching embarassing artistic moves.

No one can take away his technical musical talent but if he started his career with LoveSexy, he'd be a very interesting but wierd act with limited appeal to a niche audiance.

Even with that he takes his place amoung some of the greats but not above them.

Only Frank Zappa.

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

skywalker said:

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

You're still missing the point. I know Prince can rock and his skills are respected. That's not what the original conversation you butted yourself into was about, though. It was about someone stating that Stevie Wonder was not on his level because Stevie doesn't have a ROCK epic - as in a song that is a ROCK epic and I replied that in most ROCK circles, neither does Prince - as in Prince does not have a song of his own that is considered a ROCK epic. You've covered everything with the exception of what we're actually talking about.


FFS, the way you people bend yourselves into pretzels over any and everything that is not completely ass slobbering, groveling-- my goodness! It's just flat out disturbing.

I didn't miss the point. I thought we already covered it. - Generally, Purple Rain is considered, even by the most stubborn music fan, Prince's "rock epic". The album as well as the song. Stevie, as much as I love him, doesn't come close to playing rock music or being a rock star. Prince, by all accounts, does and is. - Now, you still haven't defined what you consider the "rock community" to be. I suspect that it's not a group of actual rock musicians (like Dave Grohl, or Robert Plant both of whom adore/respect Prince as a rock musician). Hell, Foo Fighters covered Darling Nikki...arguably another of Prince's "rock epics."I also suspect it's not credible rock journalists who have constantly rank Prince with the likes of Hendrix and Santana and have been doing so since Prince was in bikini briefs. - Maybe you have different definition of what the "rock community" and a "rock epic" are? [Edited 11/13/14 7:52am] [Edited 11/13/14 7:54am]

Maybe the "hater" part says it all.

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

I think the likes of Nick Cave and David Byrne are currently writing better, more engaging work than Prince, with less drop in quality. As much as I love him, Prince is still just pumping out pop songs, I wish he'd do something a bit more ambitious. He certainly has it in him.

Their career has been about as consistent and close to as varied as his as well. I'd argue they're all on a par live, albeit in different ways. They should probably all collaborate actually.

[Edited 11/13/14 8:41am]

Graycap23 said:

skywalker said:

HatrinaHaterwitz said: I didn't miss the point. I thought we already covered it. - Generally, Purple Rain is considered, even by the most stubborn music fan, Prince's "rock epic". The album as well as the song. Stevie, as much as I love him, doesn't come close to playing rock music or being a rock star. Prince, by all accounts, does and is. - Now, you still haven't defined what you consider the "rock community" to be. I suspect that it's not a group of actual rock musicians (like Dave Grohl, or Robert Plant both of whom adore/respect Prince as a rock musician). Hell, Foo Fighters covered Darling Nikki...arguably another of Prince's "rock epics."I also suspect it's not credible rock journalists who have constantly rank Prince with the likes of Hendrix and Santana and have been doing so since Prince was in bikini briefs. - Maybe you have different definition of what the "rock community" and a "rock epic" are? [Edited 11/13/14 7:52am] [Edited 11/13/14 7:54am]

Maybe the "hater" part says it all.

Yes. It says that I don't need to have my head surgically removed from Prince's ass in order to see clearly that "when you take into account the entire body of work, the career achievements, longevity, musicianship, range and depth of talent, influence, originality, and overall relevance to real music." Stevie Wonder is better and acknowledging that, in no way takes a damn thing away from Prince.

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

skywalker said:

I didn't miss the point. I thought we already covered it. - Generally, Purple Rain is considered, even by the most stubborn music fan, Prince's "rock epic". The album as well as the song. Stevie, as much as I love him, doesn't come close to playing rock music or being a rock star. Prince, by all accounts, does and is. - Now, you still haven't defined what you consider the "rock community" to be. I suspect that it's not a group of actual rock musicians (like Dave Grohl, or Robert Plant both of whom adore/respect Prince as a rock musician). Hell, Foo Fighters covered Darling Nikki...arguably another of Prince's "rock epics."I also suspect it's not credible rock journalists who have constantly rank Prince with the likes of Hendrix and Santana and have been doing so since Prince was in bikini briefs. - Maybe you have different definition of what the "rock community" and a "rock epic" are? [Edited 11/13/14 7:52am] [Edited 11/13/14 7:54am]

I think we are confusing terms here. Prince gets mad props from the rock community as a guitar player. No one says he plays rock music. Prince plays Prince music. The fact that he was playing lead guitar in an era of synthesizers confused many people. Rock star is a generic term regardless of genre. Change the lyrics to "Darling Nicky" and it does not make it out of the 80's. The main line is a keyboard riff. "Jump" by Van Halen was released the same year. Also has a keyboard line as the main hook. Do you think those two songs belong in the same genre? Earlier post, it was put forth that Plectrum Electrum was a rock album. It ain't. It is a Prince album. World on Fire, by Slash is a rock album.

skywalker said:

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

Yes. It says that I don't need to have my head surgically removed from Prince's ass in order to see clearly that "when you take into account the entire body of work, the career achievements, longevity, musicianship, range and depth of talent, influence, originality, and overall relevance to real music." Stevie Wonder is better and acknowledging that, in no way takes a damn thing away from Prince.

I guess it just boils down to using different criteria to judge this. Stevie doesn't do guitar based rock. Prince often does.

I've never understood arguements over taste.

At the end of the day, people like what they like.

There is no right or wrong answer.