SoulAlive said:

^^ Over $2 million was spent to promote the Carmen Elektra album.After it flopped,that was the last straw.Warner Bros. shut down Paisley Park Records.I think this also played a part in Prince going to war with them.He was pissed that they (Warners) took away his record label.

.

PPR was closed in 1994 and IIRC this was a joint decision: this was stated as such in a press release. Don't forget that Prince also received the masters of several PPR releases including the latest George Clinton and Mavis Staples ones; that isn't the kind of thing WBR would do if this was a one-sided decision.

.

WB had spent $5 million and gotten zero return and they weren't waiting to see if they'd get any return from the rest of the money they were supposed to invest (the $100 million contract alledgedly involved $20 million as the budget for PPR and a new label, tentatively called Love).

BartVanHemelen said:

Noodled24 said:

Speculation: Perhaps there was a stipulation in the contract which stated Album A had to sell 5 million copies before Prince was issued with the next advance of $10 million to create album B.

.

Why speculate when WE KNOW THE FACTS?

Because I don't have a copy of the contract so can't really state it as fact. If you have a copy you can post please do so.

TrevorAyer said:

Thanks ... I have heard some of this before but I am still curious .. I recall prince saying roadhouse was primarily in need of some arranging by w+l to finish it off .. did they start?

.

IIRC W&L said they never got a call and heard all of it the same way we did. Prince babbling about RG was AFAIK/IIRC purely a carrot to lure fans to his NPGMC.

Noodled24 said:

BartVanHemelen said:

.

Why speculate when WE KNOW THE FACTS?

Because I don't have a copy of the contract so can't really state it as fact. If you have a copy you can post please do so.

.

Read the entry about the contract in the Princepedia on this site. All you need to know is there. Sure, there's some things that are still unclear, but we know plenty, especially about the 5M sales/$10 million advance part of the deal.

BartVanHemelen said:

SoulAlive said:

^^ Over $2 million was spent to promote the Carmen Elektra album.After it flopped,that was the last straw.Warner Bros. shut down Paisley Park Records.I think this also played a part in Prince going to war with them.He was pissed that they (Warners) took away his record label.

.

PPR was closed in 1994 and IIRC this was a joint decision: this was stated as such in a press release. Don't forget that Prince also received the masters of several PPR releases including the latest George Clinton and Mavis Staples ones; that isn't the kind of thing WBR would do if this was a one-sided decision.

.

WB had spent $5 million and gotten zero return and they weren't waiting to see if they'd get any return from the rest of the money they were supposed to invest (the $100 million contract alledgedly involved $20 million as the budget for PPR and a new label, tentatively called Love).

Nonono, they had zero choice in the matter, the original contract said if/when the label was shut down the masters went back to . There was no negociation, no argument, nothing.

I think the press release was just a way of being polite, I've read various accounts saying that had no choice in the matter. I don't know exactly what happened but he still wanted a vanity label at the time (even though he quickly gave up on it NPGR was supposed to do just what PP was doing).

BartVanHemelen said:

Noodled24 said:

Because I don't have a copy of the contract so can't really state it as fact. If you have a copy you can post please do so.

.

Read the entry about the contract in the Princepedia on this site. All you need to know is there. Sure, there's some things that are still unclear, but we know plenty, especially about the 5M sales/$10 million advance part of the deal.

I've read the 1994 deal details. Here - http://prince.org/wiki/Th..._1994_Deal - But I cant see anywhere it states what stipulations were put in place in the contract with regard to timescales given for each album to hit it's target thus unlocking the next advance. Hence my speculation.

Noodled24 said:

lastdecember said:

AS the years go on and we get further from this whole era of PRINCE, we can sit back and really realize that like it was said by many then, was true. Prince was behaving like a child who thought he should have the toys everyone else had, which is how it always happens when artists HIT that age where they just are not "IT" anymore.

Prince was very much "IT" at the time. D&P only made #2 on the charts but spent over a YEAR in the UK charts. He had some huge singles. Even the album had some big singles. Debut #1. The 3 different releases of the greatest hits all went top 5, the album #1, Come #1

One of Prince's biggest DISASTERS was trying to fit in, and as much as people say he didnt, he SO wanted to cash in on rap in his own way, but his work was terrible, Tony M, Gold Nigga, Carmen Electra, OMG that whole campaign of her pic "sshhhhh" in every magazine showing off her hot legs and looks that is WHERE that whole thing should have stayed, Carmen was a hot little number for videos and attempts at acting but having a record at that time (or any time) was a disaster and just plain dumb, but PRINCE does think alot with his "dick" sorry to say people, he is a male and he was sleeping with or having relations with most of these women, but he has NO attention span, and still really doesnt, he tires SO QUICKLY, the only reason Andy Allo is still out there is that she was doing this all on her own before prince. I mean where is TAMAR now, what the hell happend to ROSIE GAINES, BRIA VALENTE anyone ??

Outside of Princes core fan base. Nobody knew who any of these people were. We didn't really have the internet so unless you subscribed to a Fanzine nobody knew or cared. Having said that I remember the song "Fantasia Erotica" being played a lot at the time. Pretty sure she/Prince had at least one top 40 song from that album.

Early 90's Dance music - it was competing with the likes of 2Unlimited with "No Limits". It was on a par with what was going on in the music scene then. Far too much time and effort went into the project but it didn't detract from his own output at the time.

[Edited 10/11/14 16:20pm]

From Carmen there was nothing charted or even close to Top 40. As for the other albums COME was a gold record that peaked at #15, as for the HITS stuff they sold well but the peak was #19 for the set and I believe #46 or the HITS#1 and #2 im not sure but it was lower. The Love Symbol album itself peaked at #5, and had only one BIG HIT that was 7 which hit the top 10. Other charted singles from that album "Morning Papers" #44, SEXY MF #60 i believe and My Name is Prince peaked at number 36 and quickly disappeared. Singles from COME, Letitgo peaked at #10RB and #31, and then SPACE did not chart and hit #71RB. Prince during this time was clearly on the decline of any form of "mainstream" popularity at that time, it started on the Love Symbol album with the poor singles choices, down to the contract down to the bad side projects of artists no one gave two craps about. Prince clearly was trying to be the PRINCE of the 80's when he ruled and could do what he wanted in a decade that was not feeling him for the most part, or at least was not feeling what he was doing.

databank said:

BartVanHemelen said:

.

PPR was closed in 1994 and IIRC this was a joint decision: this was stated as such in a press release. Don't forget that Prince also received the masters of several PPR releases including the latest George Clinton and Mavis Staples ones; that isn't the kind of thing WBR would do if this was a one-sided decision.

.

WB had spent $5 million and gotten zero return and they weren't waiting to see if they'd get any return from the rest of the money they were supposed to invest (the $100 million contract alledgedly involved $20 million as the budget for PPR and a new label, tentatively called Love).

Nonono, they had zero choice in the matter, the original contract said if/when the label was shut down the masters went back to . There was no negociation, no argument, nothing.

I think the press release was just a way of being polite, I've read various accounts saying that had no choice in the matter. I don't know exactly what happened but he still wanted a vanity label at the time (even though he quickly gave up on it NPGR was supposed to do just what PP was doing).

yeah,I know that Prince wasn't happy when Paisley Park Records was shut down.It's clear that Warners had some kind of safety net (i.e,they could back out of the deal if the records didn't sell well).To make matters worse,Warners was backing Madonna's Maverick Records label at the time,and her label was having some success.This had to have made Prince really pissed.Many people think his "war" with WB was strictly about ownership of masters,but there were clearly other things going on too.

lastdecember said:

Noodled24 said:

Outside of Princes core fan base. Nobody knew who any of these people were. We didn't really have the internet so unless you subscribed to a Fanzine nobody knew or cared. Having said that I remember the song "Fantasia Erotica" being played a lot at the time. Pretty sure she/Prince had at least one top 40 song from that album.

Early 90's Dance music - it was competing with the likes of 2Unlimited with "No Limits". It was on a par with what was going on in the music scene then. Far too much time and effort went into the project but it didn't detract from his own output at the time.

[Edited 10/11/14 16:20pm]

From Carmen there was nothing charted or even close to Top 40. As for the other albums COME was a gold record that peaked at #15, as for the HITS stuff they sold well but the peak was #19 for the set and I believe #46 or the HITS#1 and #2 im not sure but it was lower. The Love Symbol album itself peaked at #5, and had only one BIG HIT that was 7 which hit the top 10. Other charted singles from that album "Morning Papers" #44, SEXY MF #60 i believe and My Name is Prince peaked at number 36 and quickly disappeared. Singles from COME, Letitgo peaked at #10RB and #31, and then SPACE did not chart and hit #71RB. Prince during this time was clearly on the decline of any form of "mainstream" popularity at that time, it started on the Love Symbol album with the poor singles choices, down to the contract down to the bad side projects of artists no one gave two craps about. Prince clearly was trying to be the PRINCE of the 80's when he ruled and could do what he wanted in a decade that was not feeling him for the most part, or at least was not feeling what he was doing.

That maybe true in the states. HipHop took off in the USA a few years before it hit the UK and Europe. In Europe those albums and the singles were far more successful.

SexyMF #4

MNIP #7
7 #27 - far less sucessful in the UK than in the states

As for the albums themselves:

O)+> #1

Come #1 (the 4th Prince disc that year)...(the other 3 also made the top 5) And the UK charts are based on sales not airplay.

TGE #4

I suspect the same was true over the reast of Europe. So he was still a big name.

Noodled24 said:

lastdecember said:

From Carmen there was nothing charted or even close to Top 40. As for the other albums COME was a gold record that peaked at #15, as for the HITS stuff they sold well but the peak was #19 for the set and I believe #46 or the HITS#1 and #2 im not sure but it was lower. The Love Symbol album itself peaked at #5, and had only one BIG HIT that was 7 which hit the top 10. Other charted singles from that album "Morning Papers" #44, SEXY MF #60 i believe and My Name is Prince peaked at number 36 and quickly disappeared. Singles from COME, Letitgo peaked at #10RB and #31, and then SPACE did not chart and hit #71RB. Prince during this time was clearly on the decline of any form of "mainstream" popularity at that time, it started on the Love Symbol album with the poor singles choices, down to the contract down to the bad side projects of artists no one gave two craps about. Prince clearly was trying to be the PRINCE of the 80's when he ruled and could do what he wanted in a decade that was not feeling him for the most part, or at least was not feeling what he was doing.

That maybe true in the states. HipHop took off in the USA a few years before it hit the UK and Europe. In Europe those albums and the singles were far more successful.

SexyMF #4

MNIP #7
7 #27 - far less sucessful in the UK than in the states

As for the albums themselves:

O)+> #1

Come #1 (the 4th Prince disc that year)...(the other 3 also made the top 5) And the UK charts are based on sales not airplay.

TGE #4

I suspect the same was true over the reast of Europe. So he was still a big name.

He was still big in the USA but it was going down quickly because of his antics, at this point after the "Love Symbol" us portion of the tour he focused more on Europe, though he did some stuff here in the USA, a few shows in 1994 playing songs from Gold and Come in much smaller venues. He would than only have certain things in the UK like "Exodus" or Mayte's solo cd, certain tours too. So he obviously was playing to where he still had the audience that was more into what was going on. The USA at that time was not really into "name changes" and things like that, it was more a joke here, doing interviews in a mask, I mean Prince was taking a stand but many did not get it, he came off like a spoiled "rich kid" that wasnt getting all his toys. This was the same BACKLASH that Metallica drummer dealt with when he took on Napster, everyone trashed him for it and now years later they all applaud him for it, the same would be true of Prince, he stuck up for freedom and owning your shit and everyone thought he was crazy but decades later its what people talk about and want.

Warner opts out of Paisley Park

FEBRUARY 1, 1994 | 11:00PM PT (VARIETY)

Warner Bros. Records has terminated its joint venture with Prince’s Paisley Park Records, leaving many of the label’s acts and execs in limbo.

A tersely worded joint release called the termination mutual, but sources point to disappointing returns from the imprint as a prime factor behind Warner’s decision.

“Our relationship with Paisley Park Enterprises has been an exciting and creatively rewarding one,” said Mo Ostin, chairman of Warner Bros. Records, in a statement. “We look forward to working with them and the artist formerly known as Prince, who continues to be one of our most important artists and producers.”

The severing of ties will not affect Warner’s mega-deal with the former Prince, who recently changed his name to an unpronouncable symbol, and Warner Bros. still has the option of picking up any of the acts on the artist’s label.

Insiders note that while a formula exists to address talent and exec issues in the event of a termination of the joint venture, the issues have not been resolved.

Currently signed to the imprint are George Clinton, Mavis Staples, Belize, Rosie Gaines and Tyler Collins. The latter three artists have yet to release albums, and it is unclear how the pact termination will affect release dates.

The fate of Paisley’s execs and artists is expected to be decided by the end of this week.

Reps for Paisley and Warner declined comment.

andykeen said:

How are Come and TGE fillers?

Both Come & The Gold Experience are really strong.... all the way through.


I agree these are not fillers..... the slave years 1993-1995 were gorgeous.

SoulAlive said:

yeah,I know that Prince wasn't happy when Paisley Park Records was shut down.It's clear that Warners had some kind of safety net (i.e,they could back out of the deal if the records didn't sell well).To make matters worse,Warners was backing Madonna's Maverick Records label at the time,and her label was having some success.

.

Not just "some", that Candlebox album they put out went quadruple platinum. And in 1995 they had Alanis Morissette.

.

And even that venture ended up with Maverick suing WB (and vice versa).

.

[Edited 10/12/14 14:25pm]

thedance said:

andykeen said:

How are Come and TGE fillers?

Both Come & The Gold Experience are really strong.... all the way through.


I agree these are not fillers..... the slave years 1993-1995 were gorgeous.

.

TGE isn't contract filler, but it was released at least six months too late. (And then they stopped promoting it quickly, with so many promised releases never happening, e.g. The Hate Experience and that Gold maxi-single with a ton of mixes and other tracks.)

.

Come... well, that's debatable. Looking back it does kinda fall into the contract filler category, it just happened to have a bunch of decent tunes. But compared to other Prince albums of the era, its short length and limited track list clearly make it look like a "I need to give WB something but I don't want to give up all the good stuff" collection and less of a consistent album.

Noodled24 said:

Because I don't have a copy of the contract so can't really state it as fact. If you have a copy you can post please do so.

.

On a related note: I remember watching a BBC documentary series on the music business at least a decade or so ago, and they had a bit about George Michael's contract. I think they interviewed the manager for Dire Straits, who said how everyone on the business got a copy of GM's contract when he sued his record company and the contract was made public because of the lawsuit; he said that everyone laughed their asses off about how bad it was for GM.

.

Which is why Prince never went the legal way WRT fighting WBR. (That and because he likes to threaten people with lawsuits, but hates being in court.)

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I think we'll never get the full details about the contract (even though we already know a lot about it), just like we'll never get the full lowdown on later deals.

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(The same BBC series also had a bit about Patti LaBelle compiling an album and telling how an unknown songwriter managed to create a demo and getting his songs to Patti and how they immediately recorded two or three songs from that demo for her album. And because she had too many songs, she cut one of Prince's contributions from the album.)

^^I'd be interested in hearing those albums.I wonder how much Prince involvement there was.

SoulAlive said:

^^I'd be interested in hearing those albums.I wonder how much Prince involvement there was.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but if my memory serves Belize were affiliated with reggae producers Sly & Robbie and Tyler Collins was Stevie Wonder's niece or something and her Paisley Park album was being produced by Full Force (who had a production deal with Warners at the time).

yeah,Tyler Collins is related to Stevie Wonder.She had a successful debut album in 1990 with the hit single "Girls' Night Out"....

Not sure why she chose to sign with Paisley Park Records in 1992 with the exception of Sheila E.,the label didn't have a long history of successful female artists.Most of them recorded one album then disappeared (Jill Jones,Taja Sevelle,Dale Bozzio,etc).

here's some info on Belize....

Belize was signed to Paisley Park Records and their album was planned to be 
released in 1993. But Paisley Park Records was shut down and the album 
was shelved, together with albums for Rosie Gaines and Tyler Collins. Nobody 
knows if Prince was involved.



More info :

ELJAI was born Lloyd Carlton McFarlane Jr. in Belize City, Belize.
In the late 1980s ELJAI moved to Los Angeles, California knowing exactly what he 
wanted to do and ready to focus on his career. He was introduced to the 
DOMINATORS, 
a local band and was asked to become their lead singer- a position which he 
gladly accepted. During this time, his love for singing and music grew 
tremendously and he started 
to also develop an interest in songwriting. In 1989, ELJAI released the EP Give 
Your Loving To Me, in his native country, Belize. The song, written by ELJAI, 
sky rocketed 
on the charts and introduced him as a major artist. ELJAI continued to grow and 
develop his fan base. Later that year ELJAI was asked by a friend to be a guest 
artist on 
the Pupa Curly's "Free Mandela single. In the early 90s Carl MacGregor, the 
producer of his first EP, introduced ELJAI to Kerry Gordy, the son of the 
legendary founder of 
Motown Records, Berry Gordy.

Shortly after that meeting, the group Belize was formed and consisted of ELJAI, 
Carl and Delly McGregor. ELJAI and Belize continued to hone their writing 
skills. 
They were soon signed to Prince's Paisley Park label where they recorded their 
first album. Belize was later signed to Warner Brothers where they wrote and 
released 
"I'm Looking Out For You," the theme song for the TV show, Real Stories Of The 
Highway Patrol.

SoulAlive said:

Not sure why she chose to sign with Paisley Park Records in 1992 with the exception of Sheila E.,the label didn't have a long history of successful female artists.Most of them recorded one album then disappeared (Jill Jones,Taja Sevelle,Dale Bozzio,etc).

Warner had aquired a 50 percent stake in Paisley Park Records as a result of the infamous "100 million dollar" deal and by bringing in Kerry Gordy as an executive they were trying to make PP a "real" label beyond Prince's pet projects. Thanks to the multi-million dollar boondoggle that was the Carmen Electra project those plans were aborted.

redflag said:

SoulAlive said:

Not sure why she chose to sign with Paisley Park Records in 1992 with the exception of Sheila E.,the label didn't have a long history of successful female artists.Most of them recorded one album then disappeared (Jill Jones,Taja Sevelle,Dale Bozzio,etc).

Warner had aquired a 50 percent stake in Paisley Park Records as a result of the infamous "100 million dollar" deal and by bringing in Kerry Gordy as an executive they were trying to make PP a "real" label beyond Prince's pet projects. Thanks to the multi-million dollar boondoggle that was the Carmen Electra project those plans were aborted.

speaking of making Paisley Park into a "real label"....

Upon signing that deal,Prince should have been serious about signing some truly TALENTED,edgy artists....to show Warners that their faith in the label was justified.But around that time,he had the opportunity to sign Meshell Ndegeocello (a truly bold, edgy artist) but somehow he let her get away.Instead,he focused on Carmen Elektra---a very pretty,yet untalented "singer/rapper".It was like Vanity and Apollonia all over again.In the early 90s,the big thing was male R&B vocal groups (Jodeci,Boys II Men,etc) and yet Paisley Park didn't have their own answer to that booming market.

I think one reason why Come is often regarded as "contractual filler" is because,at the time,Prince was clearly more excited about TGE.Come was a "Prince album" but in his view,Prince was dead.He was now more focused on recordings by his new name (the symbol).Plus,the Come CD was cheaply packaged,with a measly 10 tracks (mostly one-word titles)....the whole thing feels slapped together.

A few years later,Chaos And Disorder appeared and it,too,had that same "contractual filler" thing about it.We all know that,when it was released,Prince was clearly more focused on Emancipation.

SoulAlive said:

^^I'd be interested in hearing those albums.I wonder how much Prince involvement there was.

.

The Belize album is circulating, IIRC. I must have listened to it, but I don't recall, so it's probably not that good.

SoulAlive said:

I think one reason why Come is often regarded as "contractual filler" is because,at the time,Prince was clearly more excited about TGE.Come was a "Prince album" but in his view,Prince was dead.He was now more focused on recordings by his new name (the symbol).Plus,the Come CD was cheaply packaged,with a measly 10 tracks (mostly one-word titles)....the whole thing feels slapped together.

.

Prince also thinks so:

.

In interviews, Prince talked about the album as a contractual obligation to help fulfill his recording contract after his relationship with Warner Bros. had soured, and on a discography included on his NPG Music Club website years later, the album cover had a "Contractual Obligation" stamp overlaid. Additionally, Prince declined to use the NPG Records label for this release. Prince talked about material on the album as "old" and recorded before the name change, instead hyping The Gold Experience as his "new" material.

.

Of note is that the 11 March, 1994 configuration of the album, as submitted to Warner Bros., did not contain the title track. Warner Bros. responded by asking for Come and The Most Beautiful Girl In The World to be included, as well as two or three other strong tracks. Prince delivered the final version of the album on 19 May, 1994 (on the same day as delivering a configuration of The Gold Experience), having removed Interactive and Endorphinmachine (which he reasoned were recorded by , not Prince, and were included on The Gold Experience instead), but with the newly-recorded track Letitgo.

.
Warner Bros. asked for further changes, but Prince refused, giving them no other option than to release the album as it was. Prince proposed that Come should be released by "Prince", with The Gold Experience by "" following a few weeks later, but Warner Bros. was unenthusiastic about this idea.

EnDoRpHn said:

To think that these were artistic throwaways ignores the obvious time, thought and effort that Prince put into them between late 1993 and the Fall of 1994.

.

That's not what we're saying.

.

This discussion also marginalizes the very real issues posed by Prince's conflict with WBR. Many of you seem to have bought into the media disparagement of this as a shameless temper-tantrum. The reality is that dispute would not be resolved until this past spring, more than 20 years later.

.

He was a grown man when he signed the 1992 contract AGAINST THE ADVICE OF HIS ENTOURAGE. Artists like REM and Metallica were already renegiociating past deals and were signing deals that gave them control over their back catalogue. Prince didn't give a fuck about that until after his next album wasn't a massive seller like his previous one, ignoring that this previous album was D&P which he had worked hard on, designed to be a hit, and toured extensively. And now he expected the same to happen with an album that had a SYMBOL as its name, involved a ridiculous and pretentious story line, etc. as if by magic?

.

Oh, and while Prince was babbling about artists' rights, he was preventing Margie Cox from releasing music.

.

Aspects of it clearly still linger, namely the question of who is to front promotion costs for AOA and PE. As happened back then, Prince seems to have lost patience and is moving on.

.

It's never Princey's fault in your world, right? Despite the mountain of evidence showing a constant pattern of Prince abandoning projects at the drop of a hat if they're not instant successes, even when this means ripping off his most hardcore fans, the ones who paid $77 to access a crummy website.

.

It isn't WBR's fault Prince couldn't be arsed to turn up for GMA. The lack of AOA promo seems to me to be the result of the inclusion of PE. Prince spent the Summer bitching about WBR, so WBR did what he wanted and scheduled a rush release. PE was included while this wasn't the original plan, and I think that this happened in exchange for a reduction in promo costs. I think WBR made it perfectly clear to Prince that he was responsible for this rush release and for the promo, and we now see how that ended up. WBR didn't force Prince into that amateurish Yahoo webcast, that was 100% his work.

.

This is Arista/Rave all over again.