iF reunited with Wendy & Lisa or The Revolution 4 a tour & album! U wouldn't hear anymore negativity about his muziq on here @ all.

They want the old back. Most of these fairweather fans joined after Purple Rain. They'll never be satisfied with anything he does EVER! Until that happens. Its useless!!!

babynoz said:

murph said:

Anything within the black tradition...usually with no filter....It could be a slow jam;it could be gospel influenced.... it could be something hip-hop influenced...it could be anything from Solar Records stuff to Miquel...to Mary J. Blige to even some of Justin Timberlake's music....

At times it's quality...other times it's quite rachet....There's good songs and bullshit songs just like any genre of music....But in order for folks to critique TODAY'S R&B they need to listen to more than just Chris Brown as they throw up their hands and declare that an entire genre of music is now crap because it doesn't fit into their cultural worldview and they are listening with OLD ears...

Murph, you kinda allright sometimes but this definition doesn't cut it...your definition is too broad. How are you gonna discuss a genre if you can't define it?

First, distinguish R&B from soul, funk, blues, gospel as well as myriad other distinct genres that exist within black music and then we can talk.

Don't give me no pre-packaged definition either...give a definition from a historical perspective.

*

First, soul and R&B differ based on the emphasis of vocal over music as well as musical aesthetic. Soul generally means vocal presentation/delivery whereas R&B generally emphasizes the music but also relates to the manner that the exodus of African Americans from the South into Northern cities changed their sensibilities as it related to a more smoothed and refined urban lifestyle rather than a southern mostly but not all agricultural lifestyle. As that transition relates to the music, then, R&B musical phrasings as well as notes are also more smooth and refined with less "choppy," "blunt," and/or "raw" patterns while soul has remained more "raw" and "blunt" than what was then American popular music. (Before Little Richard songs like "How Much Is that Doggie in the Window?" were number one pop songs.) Of course, both soul and gospel are rooted in the slave/Negro spiritual, but African-American religious music from say 1900 - 1930s shifted to more mainstream/white sounds as African Americans became more concerned with integration/assimilation. An example of this would be the famed Fisk University singers who travelled America singing standard American religious music--trying to sound like white choirs--until they realized that singing Negro spirituals would allow them to earn more contributions to the school. Yet, it was the great Thomas Dorsey who reintroduced African-American spiritual music to the Negro spiritual as well as the blues, by writing songs, such as "Precious Lord" and "Peace in the Valley". Also, the blues, unlike African-American religious music, never left its Negro spiritual roots but simply continued to build on itself through the introduction of more instruments, namely the guitar, piano, drum, and bass, until improv flowered and created jazz. (As a note, most of the New Orleans musicians responsible for the birth of jazz were Mississippians who went to New Orleans in search of work.) So, soul and gospel are, essentially, the same form as Ray Charles stated: "The only difference between soul and gospel is that they say 'Lawd, Lawd' and we say 'baby, baby.' Also, there is very little difference between an Al Green or Aretha Franklin song and a gospel song. And if we understand black Pentecostal and deep southern gospel, there is very little distinction between blues and gospel, especially if we know that Dorsey was actually "run out of churches" for reintroducing African-American religious music to Negro spirituals and blues because his gospel songs sounded too much like "juke joint" music.

*

Of course, it is true that even if we draw aesthetic lines and connections we must also understand the arbitrary and "outside" forces that named and defined these styles of music. For instance, quoting Little Richard: "R&B doesn't mean rhythm and blues; it means real black." This is because record companies and radio DJs changed how they labeled Little Richard's music to make rock-n-roll a white medium, which was, of course, a racist and financial act, understanding that racism is driven by the exploiting of another group to dominate and control them for one's financial gain.

*

Funk, then, is simply R&B with deeper bass/bottom infused with a jazz/swing attitude or sensibility with gospel vocal stylings. And while I know someone will want me to account for the so-called "rock" element of funk, but they guitar stylings made popular by any white guitarist we can name already existed by the time we get to Muddy Waters and Chuck Berry. So, the question remains: Is Earnie Isley playing R&B or rock-n-roll? So, then, it seems that rock-n-roll, as a definable genre, is not so much about the guitar but the manner in which the bass and drum are lessened.

*

Now, as we all know, the genius of Prince is his ability to amalgamate sounds to create something that is undefinable, but he also made records that could be labeled as a distinct genre. "I Could Never Take the Place of your Man" is a rock record, especially live--not a funk, R&B, or pop record. "Adore" is soul/R&B record--mostly soul, but by 1987 soul was mostly identified with much older acts. (In an interesting twist, while "Adore" was inspired by Prince listening to a lot of Luther Vandross at the time, even Vandross was criticized by his core, black audience as becoming too "smooth" R&B and not maintaining his "raw" soul edges. There is even one episode of Martin, in which Lawrence states: "I like old Luther 'cause new Luther is for the Pop Tart charts." As an additional note, there is a genre, southern soul, that is blues with more R&B harmonies, and an artist whose name escapes me had a hit in that genre with a song that combined "Nothing Compares to You" and a Smokey Robinson song, which I also can't remember.) The brilliance of Prince is that "I Could Never Take the Place of your Man" and "Adore" appear on an album with so many other songs that have no definition. For instance, "It" is basically a soul tune because of its howling, urgent delivery; yet, it is masked with a big, almost techno beat. "Sign 'O' the Times" is how hip hop would have been if the originators were musicians. "Housequake" is a soul groove masquerading as pop/house music. The live rendition makes it clear that it is an homage to James Brown.

*

So, where does all of this leave us with this thread. Hell, I don't know. What I will say to Murph is that there are two reasons why I don't post here nearly as much as I use to post. One, I just don't understand how people who have not been moved by Prince in the past five, ten, fifteen, twenty years continue to bemoan that fact rather than just finding someone else to move them. I just wish somebody could answer that question for me. If my favorite restaurant stopped serving the food that I liked, I'd stop going. But, hey, I'm just crazy like that. Two, since Purple Rain, there has always been a racial undercurrent to Prince's fans showing that we are not the utopia that we pretend to be. On the one hand many black fans saw Purple Rain and Around the World in a Day as a "sell-out" move. On the other hand, many white fans and those black fans who embraced the multicultural ideology/fantasy have tended to be critical of Prince embracing a more traditional black ideology in regards to addressing racism as an African American accusing white America of being antagonists. And being someone whose been in the middle of this debate as much as I have also been on the extreme of the "pro-black" side, I can say that just as many African-American fans have been angered by what they see as Prince's constant pandering to a white audience as white fans have been angered by what they see as Prince's late-career pandering to a black audience.

*

Now, some people just don't like rock music and some people just don't like R&B. Sometimes it's racially motivated and sometimes its culturally motivated, which is similar to race but not quite the same. I think the issue for Muprh is when people use language, such as "lowering himself to R&B," which is a racist sentiment that somehow music created traditionally by African Americans is intellectually less sophisticated than music created traditionally by whites. And I know that I'm going to piss off some folks, but it's even difficult for me to say music traditionally created by whites because most American music is rooted in music created by African Americans, which is another reason why the whole rock versus R&B pisses off some African Americans.

*

Yet, the one problem for Murph's argument is that most of the people that are critical of Prince's recent R&B output are also critical of Prince's rock output. Again, I wonder why they don't just find someone else to move them, but that's, again, a discussion for another thread. So, Murph, I could be wrong, but you may be reacting to years of perceiving that some fans desire Prince to remain that exotic, mythic bi-racial nymph who was only concerned in fucking himself silly or fucking himself into heaven or just fucking. And many of those fans are pissed that their exotic, mythic bi-racial nymph grew up, realized that while fucking is great it won't solve every problem, and became a bit more responsible than they would like, especially as it relates to sex and being a black person.

*

But, the bottom line is that Prince is like a pie chart with several pieces, and we all come to him for one or several of those pieces. Some of us like most of those pieces. Some of us like certain pieces more than we like other pieces. And, some people even try to deny that other pieces do or ever existed. I often wonder why people can't just eat the pieces they like and ignore the pieces they dislike. If one thing Prince has shown us, regardless of what we like, he's going to keep making and serving the pieces that he wants to serve. So, we can either eat those pieces or go find another pie. I, for one, am still digging most of the pie.

Militant said:

babynoz said:

What I said was when the younglings attempt to "define" something...I didn't say anything about "liking", so don't get butt hurt about that.

You actually gave a much more coherent explanation than murph did when you put it in terms of contemporary vs more classic r&B so score one for you for understanding what it means to define something.

Indeed, the stylized version of contemporary r&b sounds so formulaic to a lot of people but the problem is when people begin to insist that they know the reason why somebody else may not like what they like. You're too opinionated in that regard. Sometimes people just like what they like and to start an entire thread to analyze why people have different musical taste is rather silly.

So you and murph can write an entire essay with explanations ad nauseum about people that you think don't "get it" but at the end of the day you can't force people to like something because you do....that's so 9th grade.

For the record, I love the whole 3121 album even more than many of his older albums....same with Lotusflower. I just happen not to like THIS particular song, if that's okay with you and murph or course.

Who's forcing anyone to like anything? Who is butt hurt about anything? I just questioned whether a lot of the people who dislike the song are familiar with the subgenre of music it comes from. If not, then it's doubtful that they'd like it. It's not what they are used to. But it'll probably grow on them

Like I said, it should be okay with you even if it doesn't grow on them...and I already said that you gave a much better definition than murph did.

Some of us old farts actually do like some new music...furthermore there is plenty of older music that I dont care for. It's moreso a case of either I like something or I don't.

There are times when I want to delve into nostalgia and I will freely admit to it when that happens.

murph said:

68686 said:

I'm just curious.

Could you define R&B?

Start with: Rhythm & Blues.

Ok.

What are the elements of R&B, in your personal opinion.

Not song titles, i'm talking about the genre.

Thanks!

Anything within the black tradition...usually with no filter....It could be a slow jam;it could be gospel influenced.... it could be something hip-hop influenced...it could be anything from Solar Records stuff to Miquel...to Mary J. Blige to even some of Justin Timberlake's music....

At times it's quality...other times it's quite rachet....There's good songs and bullshit songs just like any genre of music....But in order for folks to critique TODAY'S R&B they need to listen to more than just Chris Brown as they throw up their hands and declare that an entire genre of music is now crap because it doesn't fit into their cultural worldview and they are listening with OLD ears...

Well, just to add some other names, you can add the late Tina Marie, then there's Michael McDonald who had a badazz soul sound back in the day,and neither of the two were Black, but they developed a soul/r&b sound they were able to call their own and their music/styles have been appreciated by many African-Americans. R&B music styles are anywhere from gospel to blues, funk, funk rock, slow jam romance songs of the 70s black male singing groups, to gospel rock (i.e., gospel rock - Sister Rosetta Tharpe), and the list goes on.

[Edited 9/2/14 18:57pm]

KCOOLMUZIQ said:

iF reunited with Wendy & Lisa or The Revolution 4 a tour & album! U wouldn't hear anymore negativity about his muziq on here @ all.

They want the old back. Most of these fairweather fans joined after Purple Rain. They'll never be satisfied with anything he does EVER! Until that happens. Its useless!!!

Like I said before, you would think W&L gave birth to Prince's musical gift/talent, yet he was around before they came into the picture.

babynoz said:

Militant said:

Who's forcing anyone to like anything? Who is butt hurt about anything? I just questioned whether a lot of the people who dislike the song are familiar with the subgenre of music it comes from. If not, then it's doubtful that they'd like it. It's not what they are used to. But it'll probably grow on them

Like I said, it should be okay with you even if it doesn't grow on them...and I already said that you gave a much better definition than murph did.

Some of us old farts actually do like some new music...furthermore there is plenty of older music that I dont care for. It's moreso a case of either I like something or I don't.

There are times when I want to delve into nostalgia and I will freely admit to it when that happens.

I think murph was commenting on a "groupthink" mentality that rears it's head whenever Prince makes contemporary R&B. That's what I was commenting on, anyway. I certainly don't think everybody who dislikes the song fits into that category (and your appreciation of the 3121 record would indicate that you don't) , but I definitely see it's existence on a broader level whenever Prince does something in the post hip-hop contemporary black music mold.

1725topp said:

babynoz said:

Murph, you kinda allright sometimes but this definition doesn't cut it...your definition is too broad. How are you gonna discuss a genre if you can't define it?

First, distinguish R&B from soul, funk, blues, gospel as well as myriad other distinct genres that exist within black music and then we can talk.

Don't give me no pre-packaged definition either...give a definition from a historical perspective.

*

First, soul and R&B differ based on the emphasis of vocal over music as well as musical aesthetic. Soul generally means vocal presentation/delivery whereas R&B generally emphasizes the music but also relates to the manner that the exodus of African Americans from the South into Northern cities changed their sensibilities as it related to a more smoothed and refined urban lifestyle rather than a southern mostly but not all agricultural lifestyle. As that transition relates to the music, then, R&B musical phrasings as well as notes are also more smooth and refined with less "choppy," "blunt," and/or "raw" patterns while soul has remained more "raw" and "blunt" than what was then American popular music. (Before Little Richard songs like "How Much Is that Doggie in the Window?" were number one pop songs.) Of course, both soul and gospel are rooted in the slave/Negro spiritual, but African-American religious music from say 1900 - 1930s shifted to more mainstream/white sounds as African Americans became more concerned with integration/assimilation. An example of this would be the famed Fisk University singers who travelled America singing standard American religious music--trying to sound like white choirs--until they realized that singing Negro spirituals would allow them to earn more contributions to the school. Yet, it was the great Thomas Dorsey who reintroduced African-American spiritual music to the Negro spiritual as well as the blues, by writing songs, such as "Precious Lord" and "Peace in the Valley". Also, the blues, unlike African-American religious music, never left its Negro spiritual roots but simply continued to build on itself through the introduction of more instruments, namely the guitar, piano, drum, and bass, until improv flowered and created jazz. (As a note, most of the New Orleans musicians responsible for the birth of jazz were Mississippians who went to New Orleans in search of work.) So, soul and gospel are, essentially, the same form as Ray Charles stated: "The only difference between soul and gospel is that they say 'Lawd, Lawd' and we say 'baby, baby.' Also, there is very little difference between an Al Green or Aretha Franklin song and a gospel song. And if we understand black Pentecostal and deep southern gospel, there is very little distinction between blues and gospel, especially if we know that Dorsey was actually "run out of churches" for reintroducing African-American religious music to Negro spirituals and blues because his gospel songs sounded too much like "juke joint" music.

*

Of course, it is true that even if we draw aesthetic lines and connections we must also understand the arbitrary and "outside" forces that named and defined these styles of music. For instance, quoting Little Richard: "R&B doesn't mean rhythm and blues; it means real black." This is because record companies and radio DJs changed how they labeled Little Richard's music to make rock-n-roll a white medium, which was, of course, a racist and financial act, understanding that racism is driven by the exploiting of another group to dominate and control them for one's financial gain.

*

Funk, then, is simply R&B with deeper bass/bottom infused with a jazz/swing attitude or sensibility with gospel vocal stylings. And while I know someone will want me to account for the so-called "rock" element of funk, but they guitar stylings made popular by any white guitarist we can name already existed by the time we get to Muddy Waters and Chuck Berry. So, the question remains: Is Earnie Isley playing R&B or rock-n-roll? So, then, it seems that rock-n-roll, as a definable genre, is not so much about the guitar but the manner in which the bass and drum are lessened.

*

Now, as we all know, the genius of Prince is his ability to amalgamate sounds to create something that is undefinable, but he also made records that could be labeled as a distinct genre. "I Could Never Take the Place of your Man" is a rock record, especially live--not a funk, R&B, or pop record. "Adore" is soul/R&B record--mostly soul, but by 1987 soul was mostly identified with much older acts. (In an interesting twist, while "Adore" was inspired by Prince listening to a lot of Luther Vandross at the time, even Vandross was criticized by his core, black audience as becoming too "smooth" R&B and not maintaining his "raw" soul edges. There is even one episode of Martin, in which Lawrence states: "I like old Luther 'cause new Luther is for the Pop Tart charts." As an additional note, there is a genre, southern soul, that is blues with more R&B harmonies, and an artist whose name escapes me had a hit in that genre with a song that combined "Nothing Compares to You" and a Smokey Robinson song, which I also can't remember.) The brilliance of Prince is that "I Could Never Take the Place of your Man" and "Adore" appear on an album with so many other songs that have no definition. For instance, "It" is basically a soul tune because of its howling, urgent delivery; yet, it is masked with a big, almost techno beat. "Sign 'O' the Times" is how hip hop would have been if the originators were musicians. "Housequake" is a soul groove masquerading as pop/house music. The live rendition makes it clear that it is an homage to James Brown.

*

So, where does all of this leave us with this thread. Hell, I don't know. What I will say to Murph is that there are two reasons why I don't post here nearly as much as I use to post. One, I just don't understand how people who have not been moved by Prince in the past five, ten, fifteen, twenty years continue to bemoan that fact rather than just finding someone else to move them. I just wish somebody could answer that question for me. If my favorite restaurant stopped serving the food that I liked, I'd stop going. But, hey, I'm just crazy like that. Two, since Purple Rain, there has always been a racial undercurrent to Prince's fans showing that we are not the utopia that we pretend to be. On the one hand many black fans saw Purple Rain and Around the World in a Day as a "sell-out" move. On the other hand, many white fans and those black fans who embraced the multicultural ideology/fantasy have tended to be critical of Prince embracing a more traditional black ideology in regards to addressing racism as an African American accusing white America of being antagonists. And being someone whose been in the middle of this debate as much as I have also been on the extreme of the "pro-black" side, I can say that just as many African-American fans have been angered by what they see as Prince's constant pandering to a white audience as white fans have been angered by what they see as Prince's late-career pandering to a black audience.

*

Now, some people just don't like rock music and some people just don't like R&B. Sometimes it's racially motivated and sometimes its culturally motivated, which is similar to race but not quite the same. I think the issue for Muprh is when people use language, such as "lowering himself to R&B," which is a racist sentiment that somehow music created traditionally by African Americans is intellectually less sophisticated than music created traditionally by whites. And I know that I'm going to piss off some folks, but it's even difficult for me to say music traditionally created by whites because most American music is rooted in music created by African Americans, which is another reason why the whole rock versus R&B pisses off some African Americans.

*

Yet, the one problem for Murph's argument is that most of the people that are critical of Prince's recent R&B output are also critical of Prince's rock output. Again, I wonder why they don't just find someone else to move them, but that's, again, a discussion for another thread. So, Murph, I could be wrong, but you may be reacting to years of perceiving that some fans desire Prince to remain that exotic, mythic bi-racial nymph who was only concerned in fucking himself silly or fucking himself into heaven or just fucking. And many of those fans are pissed that their exotic, mythic bi-racial nymph grew up, realized that while fucking is great it won't solve every problem, and became a bit more responsible than they would like, especially as it relates to sex and being a black person.

*

But, the bottom line is that Prince is like a pie chart with several pieces, and we all come to him for one or several of those pieces. Some of us like most of those pieces. Some of us like certain pieces more than we like other pieces. And, some people even try to deny that other pieces do or ever existed. I often wonder why people can't just eat the pieces they like and ignore the pieces they dislike. If one thing Prince has shown us, regardless of what we like, he's going to keep making and serving the pieces that he wants to serve. So, we can either eat those pieces or go find another pie. I, for one, am still digging most of the pie.

Insightful post. I was kind of taken aback at what murph wrote when asked by another member to define r&b because I think that for purposes of the discussion it should be properly defined, particularly when somebody specifically asks.

Personally I am perfectly content with other people enjoying songs that I don't care for and vice versa, I didn't quite get the purpose of the thread other than to label people.

But I think that you correctly grasped his intentions in which case I would say that perhaps he should not paint with such a broad brush with assumptions that people who don't like a particular song or album automatically hate all r&b.

By all means he should address any racist sentiment that he detects but it can't be the default position.

Of course the bolded part is the very reason that I made the distinction between a pre-packaged definition and a historical one and I see that you understand the difference.

Lastly, I will say that there are really only a few of the usual suspects who post the same predictable "prince has lost it" type of messages over and over and I keep trying to remind people that the absolute most efficient way to shut 'em down is to ignore them but nobody listens and consequently they end up being the center of attention because of everybody scolding them.

Gotta learn to ignore people who just wanna be seen and that goes for the ones who post over the top, "Prince can do no wrong" posts and viciously attack everybody who disagrees with them too.

KCOOLMUZIQ said:

iF reunited with Wendy & Lisa or The Revolution 4 a tour & album! U wouldn't hear anymore negativity about his muziq on here @ all.

They want the old back. Most of these fairweather fans joined after Purple Rain. They'll never be satisfied with anything he does EVER! Until that happens. Its useless!!!

You have no proof of that AND even if they joined after PR, if they are still here, that's 30 years. Blows your fairweather thing out the water.

Militant said:

babynoz said:

Like I said, it should be okay with you even if it doesn't grow on them...and I already said that you gave a much better definition than murph did.

Some of us old farts actually do like some new music...furthermore there is plenty of older music that I dont care for. It's moreso a case of either I like something or I don't.

There are times when I want to delve into nostalgia and I will freely admit to it when that happens.

I think murph was commenting on a "groupthink" mentality that rears it's head whenever Prince makes contemporary R&B. That's what I was commenting on, anyway. I certainly don't think everybody who dislikes the song fits into that category (and your appreciation of the 3121 record would indicate that you don't) , but I definitely see it's existence on a broader level whenever Prince does something in the post hip-hop contemporary black music mold.

I agree that a vein of that sentiment does exists but as I was saying to 1725topp, there's maybe half a dozen of the usual suspects who routinely decry his r&b output. I can't say I agree that they deserve a thread dedicated to them though.

2elijah said:

KCOOLMUZIQ said:

iF reunited with Wendy & Lisa or The Revolution 4 a tour & album! U wouldn't hear anymore negativity about his muziq on here @ all.

They want the old back. Most of these fairweather fans joined after Purple Rain. They'll never be satisfied with anything he does EVER! Until that happens. Its useless!!!

Like I said before, you would think W&L gave birth to Prince's musical gift/talent, yet he was around before they came into the picture.

Plus Wendy wasn't even that great of a guitar player b 4 mentored her, like he did Andy,

never gets any credit for what he taught Wendy & Lisa! He is the one that taught them how 2 b songwriters! Not visa versa. But I do adore Lisa. She is still my favorite all time keyboardist of his. Plus her backing vocals complimented so well.....

Eye don't hate Wendy & Lisa, they are talented. But they're given too much credit here 4 's 80's success . was a one man band 4 four albums. He really didn't need them in the studio & doesn't now... Eye like his new muziq without them.

KCOOLMUZIQ said:

2elijah said:

Like I said before, you would think W&L gave birth to Prince's musical gift/talent, yet he was around before they came into the picture.

Plus Wendy wasn't even that great of a guitar player b 4 mentored her, like he did Andy,

never gets any credit for what he taught Wendy & Lisa! He is the one that taught them how 2 b songwriters! Not visa versa. But I do adore Lisa. She is still my favorite all time keyboardist of his. Plus her backing vocals complimented so well.....

Eye don't hate Wendy & Lisa, they are talented. But they're given too much credit here 4 's 80's success . was a one man band 4 four albums. He really didn't need them in the studio & doesn't now... Eye like his new muziq without them.

Well, I don't dislike W&L, but I agree at times they get way too much credit for Prince's music talent. I enjoyed their time with him of course, and their contributions to the albums they worked on/participated in with him, but I can also embrace when an artist chooses to move on or work with various artists, and not get pigeon-holed into one one era or genre of music.

Militant said:

babynoz said:

What I said was when the younglings attempt to "define" something...I didn't say anything about "liking", so don't get butt hurt about that.

You actually gave a much more coherent explanation than murph did when you put it in terms of contemporary vs more classic r&B so score one for you for understanding what it means to define something.

Indeed, the stylized version of contemporary r&b sounds so formulaic to a lot of people but the problem is when people begin to insist that they know the reason why somebody else may not like what they like. You're too opinionated in that regard. Sometimes people just like what they like and to start an entire thread to analyze why people have different musical taste is rather silly.

So you and murph can write an entire essay with explanations ad nauseum about people that you think don't "get it" but at the end of the day you can't force people to like something because you do....that's so 9th grade.

For the record, I love the whole 3121 album even more than many of his older albums....same with Lotusflower. I just happen not to like THIS particular song, if that's okay with you and murph or course.

Who's forcing anyone to like anything? Who is butt hurt about anything? I just questioned whether a lot of the people who dislike the song are familiar with the subgenre of music it comes from. If not, then it's doubtful that they'd like it. It's not what they are used to. But it'll probably grow on them

I thought you did a good job militant... sometimes you try to have an intelligent conversation with folks but they don't receive it

Alexandernvrmind said:

Militant said:

Who's forcing anyone to like anything? Who is butt hurt about anything? I just questioned whether a lot of the people who dislike the song are familiar with the subgenre of music it comes from. If not, then it's doubtful that they'd like it. It's not what they are used to. But it'll probably grow on them

I thought you did a good job militant... sometimes you try to have an intelligent conversation with folks but they don't receive it

Militant and I have already clarified things between us and have come to an understanding but don't let that stop you from trying to stir shit and kiss up.

Alexandernvrmind said:

babynoz said:

Alexandernvrmind said:

I thought you did a good job militant... sometimes you try to have an intelligent conversation with folks but they don't receive it

Militant and I have already clarified things between us and have come to an understanding but don't let that stop you from trying to stir shit and kiss up.

you need to calm the fuck down... and stop being so fucking rude. That’s what your juvenile delinquent ass needs to do lol

Alexandernvrmind said:

babynoz said:

Militant and I have already clarified things between us and have come to an understanding but don't let that stop you from trying to stir shit and kiss up.

you need to calm the fuck down... and stop being so fucking rude. That’s what your juvenile delinquent ass needs to do lol

Just mind yours and everything will be fine.

back to the original topic of this thread...

I have no problem with Prince's R&B songs.I just don't think that "U Know It" is a good R&B song.

"Clouds" is great",though.So is "Breakfast Can Wait".

SoulAlive said:

Alexandernvrmind said:

Lol yep... Absolutely nuts LMBO.

Oh come on Alex...Purple Rain is a pop/rock record and you know it there is nothing on that album that could be considered funk."DMSR" is a funk song."Head" is a funk song."Let's Work" is a funk song."Lady Cab Driver" is a funk song.Are you really suggesting that anything on PR is funky like those songs are?

well you know what they say about opinions...

When Doves Cry is funk song dude... there in nothing POP about it except that it crossed over. I guess Erotic City is a pop record too? lol

its a Funk song that crossed over

SoulAlive said:

back to the original topic of this thread...

I have no problem with Prince's R&B songs.I just don't think that "U Know It" is a good R&B song.

"Clouds" is great",though.So is "Breakfast Can Wait".

How dare you....security!

Seriously though, when people start lambasting others over song preferences, that really is being too opinionated.

Over in p&r we go at it but those are weighty issues.

These are songs for chrissakes. If I don't care for a certain song I know that sooner or later Princey will release something I will love so I don't sweat any of it...it's just entertainment.

2elijah said:

KCOOLMUZIQ said:

Plus Wendy wasn't even that great of a guitar player b 4 mentored her, like he did Andy,

never gets any credit for what he taught Wendy & Lisa! He is the one that taught them how 2 b songwriters! Not visa versa. But I do adore Lisa. She is still my favorite all time keyboardist of his. Plus her backing vocals complimented so well.....

Eye don't hate Wendy & Lisa, they are talented. But they're given too much credit here 4 's 80's success . was a one man band 4 four albums. He really didn't need them in the studio & doesn't now... Eye like his new muziq without them.

Well, I don't dislike W&L, but I agree at times they get way too much credit for Prince's music talent. I enjoyed their time with him of course, and their contributions to the albums they worked on/participated in with him, but I can also embrace when an artist chooses to move on or work with various artists, and not get pigeon-holed into one one era or genre of music.

SoulAlive said:

back to the original topic of this thread...

I have no problem with Prince's R&B songs.I just don't think that "U Know It" is a good R&B song.

"Clouds" is great",though.So is "Breakfast Can Wait".

Hi

Good comment.

You said "good" r&b song.

Can you list 5 to 10 songs that are "good" r&b songs to you, in your personal opinion.

It can be anything, not just Prince songs.

Genesia said:

1725topp said:

babynoz said:

Murph, you kinda allright sometimes but this definition doesn't cut it...your definition is too broad. How are you gonna discuss a genre if you can't define it?

First, distinguish R&B from soul, funk, blues, gospel as well as myriad other distinct genres that exist within black music and then we can talk.

Don't give me no pre-packaged definition either...give a definition from a historical perspective.

*

First, soul and R&B differ based on the emphasis of vocal over music as well as musical aesthetic. Soul generally means vocal presentation/delivery whereas R&B generally emphasizes the music but also relates to the manner that the exodus of African Americans from the South into Northern cities changed their sensibilities as it related to a more smoothed and refined urban lifestyle rather than a southern mostly but not all agricultural lifestyle. As that transition relates to the music, then, R&B musical phrasings as well as notes are also more smooth and refined with less "choppy," "blunt," and/or "raw" patterns while soul has remained more "raw" and "blunt" than what was then American popular music. (Before Little Richard songs like "How Much Is that Doggie in the Window?" were number one pop songs.) Of course, both soul and gospel are rooted in the slave/Negro spiritual, but African-American religious music from say 1900 - 1930s shifted to more mainstream/white sounds as African Americans became more concerned with integration/assimilation. An example of this would be the famed Fisk University singers who travelled America singing standard American religious music--trying to sound like white choirs--until they realized that singing Negro spirituals would allow them to earn more contributions to the school. Yet, it was the great Thomas Dorsey who reintroduced African-American spiritual music to the Negro spiritual as well as the blues, by writing songs, such as "Precious Lord" and "Peace in the Valley". Also, the blues, unlike African-American religious music, never left its Negro spiritual roots but simply continued to build on itself through the introduction of more instruments, namely the guitar, piano, drum, and bass, until improv flowered and created jazz. (As a note, most of the New Orleans musicians responsible for the birth of jazz were Mississippians who went to New Orleans in search of work.) So, soul and gospel are, essentially, the same form as Ray Charles stated: "The only difference between soul and gospel is that they say 'Lawd, Lawd' and we say 'baby, baby.' Also, there is very little difference between an Al Green or Aretha Franklin song and a gospel song. And if we understand black Pentecostal and deep southern gospel, there is very little distinction between blues and gospel, especially if we know that Dorsey was actually "run out of churches" for reintroducing African-American religious music to Negro spirituals and blues because his gospel songs sounded too much like "juke joint" music.

*

Of course, it is true that even if we draw aesthetic lines and connections we must also understand the arbitrary and "outside" forces that named and defined these styles of music. For instance, quoting Little Richard: "R&B doesn't mean rhythm and blues; it means real black." This is because record companies and radio DJs changed how they labeled Little Richard's music to make rock-n-roll a white medium, which was, of course, a racist and financial act, understanding that racism is driven by the exploiting of another group to dominate and control them for one's financial gain.

*

Funk, then, is simply R&B with deeper bass/bottom infused with a jazz/swing attitude or sensibility with gospel vocal stylings. And while I know someone will want me to account for the so-called "rock" element of funk, but they guitar stylings made popular by any white guitarist we can name already existed by the time we get to Muddy Waters and Chuck Berry. So, the question remains: Is Earnie Isley playing R&B or rock-n-roll? So, then, it seems that rock-n-roll, as a definable genre, is not so much about the guitar but the manner in which the bass and drum are lessened.

*

Now, as we all know, the genius of Prince is his ability to amalgamate sounds to create something that is undefinable, but he also made records that could be labeled as a distinct genre. "I Could Never Take the Place of your Man" is a rock record, especially live--not a funk, R&B, or pop record. "Adore" is soul/R&B record--mostly soul, but by 1987 soul was mostly identified with much older acts. (In an interesting twist, while "Adore" was inspired by Prince listening to a lot of Luther Vandross at the time, even Vandross was criticized by his core, black audience as becoming too "smooth" R&B and not maintaining his "raw" soul edges. There is even one episode of Martin, in which Lawrence states: "I like old Luther 'cause new Luther is for the Pop Tart charts." As an additional note, there is a genre, southern soul, that is blues with more R&B harmonies, and an artist whose name escapes me had a hit in that genre with a song that combined "Nothing Compares to You" and a Smokey Robinson song, which I also can't remember.) The brilliance of Prince is that "I Could Never Take the Place of your Man" and "Adore" appear on an album with so many other songs that have no definition. For instance, "It" is basically a soul tune because of its howling, urgent delivery; yet, it is masked with a big, almost techno beat. "Sign 'O' the Times" is how hip hop would have been if the originators were musicians. "Housequake" is a soul groove masquerading as pop/house music. The live rendition makes it clear that it is an homage to James Brown.

*

So, where does all of this leave us with this thread. Hell, I don't know. What I will say to Murph is that there are two reasons why I don't post here nearly as much as I use to post. One, I just don't understand how people who have not been moved by Prince in the past five, ten, fifteen, twenty years continue to bemoan that fact rather than just finding someone else to move them. I just wish somebody could answer that question for me. If my favorite restaurant stopped serving the food that I liked, I'd stop going. But, hey, I'm just crazy like that. Two, since Purple Rain, there has always been a racial undercurrent to Prince's fans showing that we are not the utopia that we pretend to be. On the one hand many black fans saw Purple Rain and Around the World in a Day as a "sell-out" move. On the other hand, many white fans and those black fans who embraced the multicultural ideology/fantasy have tended to be critical of Prince embracing a more traditional black ideology in regards to addressing racism as an African American accusing white America of being antagonists. And being someone whose been in the middle of this debate as much as I have also been on the extreme of the "pro-black" side, I can say that just as many African-American fans have been angered by what they see as Prince's constant pandering to a white audience as white fans have been angered by what they see as Prince's late-career pandering to a black audience.

*

Now, some people just don't like rock music and some people just don't like R&B. Sometimes it's racially motivated and sometimes its culturally motivated, which is similar to race but not quite the same. I think the issue for Muprh is when people use language, such as "lowering himself to R&B," which is a racist sentiment that somehow music created traditionally by African Americans is intellectually less sophisticated than music created traditionally by whites. And I know that I'm going to piss off some folks, but it's even difficult for me to say music traditionally created by whites because most American music is rooted in music created by African Americans, which is another reason why the whole rock versus R&B pisses off some African Americans.

*

Yet, the one problem for Murph's argument is that most of the people that are critical of Prince's recent R&B output are also critical of Prince's rock output. Again, I wonder why they don't just find someone else to move them, but that's, again, a discussion for another thread. So, Murph, I could be wrong, but you may be reacting to years of perceiving that some fans desire Prince to remain that exotic, mythic bi-racial nymph who was only concerned in fucking himself silly or fucking himself into heaven or just fucking. And many of those fans are pissed that their exotic, mythic bi-racial nymph grew up, realized that while fucking is great it won't solve every problem, and became a bit more responsible than they would like, especially as it relates to sex and being a black person.

*

But, the bottom line is that Prince is like a pie chart with several pieces, and we all come to him for one or several of those pieces. Some of us like most of those pieces. Some of us like certain pieces more than we like other pieces. And, some people even try to deny that other pieces do or ever existed. I often wonder why people can't just eat the pieces they like and ignore the pieces they dislike. If one thing Prince has shown us, regardless of what we like, he's going to keep making and serving the pieces that he wants to serve. So, we can either eat those pieces or go find another pie. I, for one, am still digging most of the pie.

GREAT post. I don't agree with all of your points....But the context and underlining theme is spot on...The thing is I believe that the ROCKIST angle bugs me more than anything elese...As someone who digs everything from the Queens of the Stone Age to Miguel I've always had a pretty open mind about shit. I don't hate music because it fits a certain age, style or demographic...

I just find it intersting when I read some of the code words being thrown around...But really I think it's more on the side of Prince fans being some old fuckers who don't want to hear any music coming from the man that seems like it was inspired by R&B from post 2010...lol

Personally, I LOVE them. I've listened to each of them at least 100 times.

This thread is a bunch of Cray Cray.

And VainAndy what do you really think?

My only question is why is Prince recent songs giving us the R&B equivalent of Cold Play "rock" songs. Would it kill him to make an uptempo song(s)?

babynoz said:

Insightful post. I was kind of taken aback at what murph wrote when asked by another member to define r&b because I think that for purposes of the discussion it should be properly defined, particularly when somebody specifically asks.

Personally I am perfectly content with other people enjoying songs that I don't care for and vice versa, I didn't quite get the purpose of the thread other than to label people.

But I think that you correctly grasped his intentions in which case I would say that perhaps he should not paint with such a broad brush with assumptions that people who don't like a particular song or album automatically hate all r&b.

By all means he should address any racist sentiment that he detects but it can't be the default position.

Of course the bolded part is the very reason that I made the distinction between a pre-packaged definition and a historical one and I see that you understand the difference.

Lastly, I will say that there are really only a few of the usual suspects who post the same predictable "prince has lost it" type of messages over and over and I keep trying to remind people that the absolute most efficient way to shut 'em down is to ignore them but nobody listens and consequently they end up being the center of attention because of everybody scolding them.

Gotta learn to ignore people who just wanna be seen and that goes for the ones who post over the top, "Prince can do no wrong" posts and viciously attack everybody who disagrees with them too.

*

I think that sometimes it is easy to react to a cumulative effect of reading the same things over and over, yet I think that the bolded part may be the best reaction. Housequake.com and now Prince.org were mostly about having fun enjoying what one enjoys. I've returned to doing that a bit by reading as few threads as possible. For instance, I clicked the links to hear "U Know" and "Whitecaps" without reading the posts. Years ago I would have come to hear some insightful commentary about the songs. Even if a song is subpar there is a way to discuss it that is informative/educational, especially by contextualizing it historically, rather than just being demeaning of others' tastes, but now...again, I just clicked the links and bypassed the Org commentary.

murph said:

GREAT post. I don't agree with all of your points....But the context and underlining theme is spot on...The thing is I believe that the ROCKIST angle bugs me more than anything elese...As someone who digs everything from the Queens of the Stone Age to Miguel I've always had a pretty open mind about shit. I don't hate music because it fits a certain age, style or demographic...

I just find it intersting when I read some of the code words being thrown around...But really I think it's more on the side of Prince fans being some old fuckers who don't want to hear any music coming from the man that seems like it was inspired by R&B from post 2010...lol

*

Thanks for the kind words. I agree that there are a lot of "code words" used, and often if one is part of the demographic that's being marginalized by the "code words" one feels a sense of responsibility to say something. Unfortunately, what I've learned over the years is that Prince means so many diffeernt things to so many different people that it is almost impossible to respond in a way that will convince them that their language perpetuates certain stereotypes even if they don't mean to do so. And, of course, there are those who do mean to perpetuate certain stereotypes as well as limit Prince's pie chart to just what they like. In either case, it's taken me some time to just say, "Eff 'em," and come to this site mostly to check for the latest news.

Alexandernvrmind said:

I find it funny that someone is complaining that people who show a dislike for U Know are dissing RnB and black music, whilst at the same time that person is dissing Whitecaps as Canadian Christian rock. Pot and Kettle?

.

I like Clouds and U Know. I do not like modern day RnB and probably never will.
I like Whitecaps. I do not like the Canadian Christian Rock and probably never will.
I cant stand FallinLove2Nite or The Human Body. I like EDM and probably always will.
I cant stand FixUrLifeUp. I like Rock music and probably always will.