treehouse said:

ufoclub said:

. But I still think of Computer Blue as rock/pop, but I think Let's Go Crazy is much better.

.

Still? Let's Go Crazy doesn't hold up for me. Too much Johnny B. Good in it.

.

Computer Blue had the avant garde thing that made Prince sexy. Tthat song is the Revolution persona more than any other. 17 Days always sounded like the repetitive loop thing you were talking about, and a great chorus but not a fully hatched song.

Agree. Computer Blue is the most innovative song on Purple Rain IMO, even more innovative than When Doves Cry.

Shawy89 said:

treehouse said:

.

Still? Let's Go Crazy doesn't hold up for me. Too much Johnny B. Good in it.

.

Computer Blue had the avant garde thing that made Prince sexy. Tthat song is the Revolution persona more than any other. 17 Days always sounded like the repetitive loop thing you were talking about, and a great chorus but not a fully hatched song.

Agree. Computer Blue is the most innovative song on Purple Rain IMO, even more innovative than When Doves Cry.

Agreed. Computer Blue is one of the tracks that has aged incredibly well and which keeps Purple Rain avant guard and timeless after all of these years.

Let's Go Crazy on th other hand gets pretty corny til the redeeming extended album parts and it's fiery finale

[Edited 7/8/14 16:40pm]

BartVanHemelen said:

Agreed. I'm sure there's a great album buried under all that nonsense.

Shawy89 said:

treehouse said:

.

Still? Let's Go Crazy doesn't hold up for me. Too much Johnny B. Good in it.

.

Computer Blue had the avant garde thing that made Prince sexy. Tthat song is the Revolution persona more than any other. 17 Days always sounded like the repetitive loop thing you were talking about, and a great chorus but not a fully hatched song.

Agree. Computer Blue is the most innovative song on Purple Rain IMO, even more innovative than When Doves Cry.

Here's a pretty good review of the song: http://www.popmatters.com...e-rain/P2/

ufoclub said:

Shawy89 said:

Agree. Computer Blue is the most innovative song on Purple Rain IMO, even more innovative than When Doves Cry.

Here's a pretty good review of the song: http://www.popmatters.com...e-rain/P2/

Just because some reviewer agrees with you dont mean its a fact.

Maybe you dont like the song and

thats ok.

In my opinion Computer Blue is one of the best songs Prince ever done.

In terms of songwritting,production,singing,

overall emotion.

its at the same time urgent,cold,desperate,with a great sonic frame.

Maybe you dont like new wave kind of music considering your preferance to Lets Go Crazy which is pure pop with rock guitars.

Computer Blue,The Beautiful Ones and When Doves Cry are the most artistic avant garde

songs on that album

[Edited 7/9/14 6:55am]

thebanishedone said:

Just because you think Computer Blue is avant grade does not make it a fact. To me, it does not seem new wave at all in sound (outside of using a drum machine and having the word computer in it). I was in high school during the new wave craze with two toned flipped to the side hair. Let's Go Crazy sounds like Adam Ant on PCP in an arena. Computer Blue is simple hard rock vamping over a drum machine beat with really silly lyrics. Just tap your hand to make a beat and sing those lyrics and take note of the melody. It's very loose, like first draft fragmented ideas just make there way in time over a drum machine loop, and doesn't seem like a very worked over composition. The parts don't have much appeal to most listeners. It would have tanked as a single or album opener.

Let's Go Crazy has far more of the New Wave feel in its choice of arrangement, interlocking pop confection melodies, and its baseball stadium style reverb, plus it's messiah like intro speech and echoed reprise. I clearly remember hearing it on radios before it was even clear it was Prince. It seemed to have that sound like Freeze Frame or In a Big Country. Listen to those two.


You're quite mistaken if you don't think some of New Wave took from old school rock structure at its core. Listen to Adam Ant's hit Goody Two Shoes.

ufoclub said:

thebanishedone said:

Just because some reviewer agrees with you dont mean its a fact.

Maybe you dont like the song and

thats ok.

In my opinion Computer Blue is one of the best songs Prince ever done.

In terms of songwritting,production,singing,

overall emotion.

its at the same time urgent,cold,desperate,with a great sonic frame.

Maybe you dont like new wave kind of music considering your preferance to Lets Go Crazy which is pure pop with rock guitars.

Computer Blue,The Beautiful Ones and When Doves Cry are the most artistic avant garde

songs on that album

[Edited 7/9/14 6:55am]

Just because you think Computer Blue is avant grade does not make it a fact. To me, it does not seem new wave at all in sound (outside of using a drum machine and having the word computer in it). I was in high school during the new wave craze with two toned flipped to the side hair. Let's Go Crazy sounds like Adam Ant on PCP in an arena. Computer Blue is simple hard rock vamping over a drum machine beat with really silly lyrics. Just tap your hand to make a beat and sing those lyrics and take note of the melody. It's very loose, like first draft fragmented ideas just make there way in time over a drum machine loop, and doesn't seem like a very worked over composition. The parts don't have much appeal to most listeners. It would have tanked as a single or album opener. Let's Go Crazy has far more of the New Wave feel in its choice of arrangement, interlocking pop confection melodies, and its baseball stadium style reverb, plus it's messiah like intro speech and echoed reprise. I clearly remember hearing it on radios before it was even clear it was Prince. It seemed to have that sound like Freeze Frame or In a Big Country. Listen to those two. You're quite mistaken if you don't think some of New Wave took from old school rock structure at its core. Listen to Adam Ant's hit Goody Two Shoes.

Lets Go Crazy is closer to retro 50s rock than new wave.i love LETS GO cRAZY but i really think you underrated Computer Blue.Why are the lyrics silly? is it because feeling lonley is presented as a metaphor from the perpective of a Computer? I love that song man and it have one of the best ever guitar solos d

thebanishedone said:

I do like the long version of Computer Blue because it has the parts which are to me, the interesting peaks and another world that it takes you to. But with those parts gone, I don't like what's left.

It always sounded like hard rock posturing, lame guitar solo, and a boring beat, and a not very appealing melody to me. I just feel like it was rushed out the door. Or it was full band authored which can sometime make a gray instead of a strong color. I don't like America for the same reason. It sounds like a boring beat with rock / funk vamping on top. But America does have a very strong flavor and lyrical intent ( although it's Republican theme is embarrassing). Compared to all the other songs outside of Take Me With U, I think the album version of the song Computer Blue has very simplistic elementary school level lyrics.

I mean there's no hidden meaning or build up, no interesting poetry of words. Lyrically, Take Me With U sucks too. And Apollonias vocals are poor.

All the other songs, even Darling Niki have good lyrics, whether it's poetry, narrative, or pop anthem.

But hey, it's my opinion. And some critics. And some casual listeners of Prince music but strong fans of pop music in general.

thebanishedone said:

ufoclub said:

Here's a pretty good review of the song: http://www.popmatters.com...e-rain/P2/

Just because some reviewer agrees with you dont mean its a fact.

Maybe you dont like the song and

thats ok.

In my opinion Computer Blue is one of the best songs Prince ever done.

In terms of songwritting,production,singing,

overall emotion.

its at the same time urgent,cold,desperate,with a great sonic frame.

Maybe you dont like new wave kind of music considering your preferance to Lets Go Crazy which is pure pop with rock guitars.

Computer Blue,The Beautiful Ones and When Doves Cry are the most artistic avant garde

songs on that album

I agree with you there too.

thebanishedone said:

Whole Emancipation album.

Lots of songs with horns .

Whole LoveSexy album.

Studio version of Adore was too glossy for my taste i like voice and piano only versions better.

Now days his live shows with 20 horns players kill the music with non stop horn soloing fiesta ,more people

on stage less music you get.

Lovesexy...overproduced ?!

You've lost your mind

XNY said:

thebanishedone said:

Whole Emancipation album.

Lots of songs with horns .

Whole LoveSexy album.

Studio version of Adore was too glossy for my taste i like voice and piano only versions better.

Now days his live shows with 20 horns players kill the music with non stop horn soloing fiesta ,more people

on stage less music you get.

Lovesexy...overproduced ?!

You've lost your mind

I would totally agree that Lovesexy had a crazu ornate sense of overproduction of all kinds of clashing elements. But that was the concept Prince had in mind. Unbridled passionate explosion of energy without regard for sounding cool.... and it bombed here in the states.just throw in stuff quickly, loudly, and move on. Wasn't it reworked and mixed in two weeks?

ufoclub said:

Just because you think Computer Blue is avant grade does not make it a fact.

.

You sure? Even the review you linked to calls is "bizarro" and "surreal". You then describe is as "loose" and "fragmented". For short, let's just say avant garde.

.

Big Country and J. Geiles Band were not New Wave Groups.

Adam Ant was Punk/New Romantic until "Goody Two Shoes".

New Wave and "baseball stadium reverb"? Say what?

.

Let's Go Crazy is 50's rock n' roll during an era when 50's nostalgia was informing the pop culture. Drive ins, sock hop clubs, Back to the Future type movies...the guitar riff could be any hair bands, or Van Halen type band, it's not a new wave riff.

.

You have a preference for one song over another, which you're entitled to though!

treehouse said:

ufoclub said:

Just because you think Computer Blue is avant grade does not make it a fact.

.

You sure? Even the review you linked to calls is "bizarro" and "surreal". You then describe is as "loose" and "fragmented". For short, let's just say avant garde.

.

Big Country and J. Geiles Band were not New Wave Groups.

Adam Ant was Punk/New Romantic until "Goody Two Shoes".

New Wave and "baseball stadium reverb"? Say what?

.

Let's Go Crazy is 50's rock n' roll during an era when 50's nostalgia was informing the pop culture. Drive ins, sock hop clubs, Back to the Future type movies...the guitar riff could be any hair bands, or Van Halen type band, it's not a new wave riff.

.

You have a preference for one song over another, which you're entitled to though!

I'm sure it's not Avante Gard, because that's exactly why I don't like it. It's loose and fragmented in the same way a child might tell a story or draw a picture crudely without any kind of craft or innovation pulling everything together into something remarkable (non crystalized). It's easily the most forgetable musical idea on the album for me (and for most reviewers and even casual fans). Let's Go Crazy still functions well in it's edited album form. Computer Blue has been castrated and left in a weak state.

Exactly what do you find innovative and new in it? That it switches gears? It might have been innovative if each gear it switched to had actually been interesting.

PS, New Wave was originally an evolution of Punk before it morphed into being a synonym for synth pop in the mid 80's. New Romantic is actually a facet of New Wave. Adam Ant is considered an artist who navigated from punk to new wave showing the connection.

New Wave later came to be characterized by use of synths and certain amount of electronic production polish including reverb effects that pushed the sound away from natural to sound other worldly in environment and scale. But it was originally a response to the laid back super produced music of the 70's (Eagles, Fleetwood Mac, Wings, etc) just as punk was. But unlike Punk it was not neccessarily raw to the point of dysfunction as part of the concept.

J Geiles Band was considered to have adopted a New Wave style of production by the time of Freeze Frame. Check out this description: [url}http://www.allmusic.com/album/freeze-frame-mw0000193936[/url]

And yes, Big Countryalso hit it big with what was considered a New Wave flavor. Check out this compilation: https://archive.org/detai...ve80sVol03

ufoclub said:

Here's a pretty good review of the song: http://www.popmatters.com...e-rain/P2/

That's the worst review of Computer Blue I've ever seen!

The writer assumes that everyone else agrees with his opinion that Computer Blue is ...

- a surreal sore thumb
- half-realized
- awkward middle child of a song
- this misbegotten musical memory
- the obvious dysfunction in this otherwise solid family unit (Purple Rain)

That's not my opinion, and I don't believe it's the opinion of the vast majority of Prince fans.

ufoclub said:

It's easily the most forgetable musical idea on the album for me (and for most reviewers and even casual fans).

For you? Maybe.

For most reviewers and casual fans? That's not my opinion and I don't believe it's the opinion of most Prince fans. In fact, I'd guess that Computer Blue was one of the top 3 favourite tracks on the album.

ufoclub said:

I'm sure it's not Avante Gard, because that's exactly why I don't like it. It's loose and fragmented in the same way a child might tell a story or draw a picture crudely without any kind of craft or innovation ......

.

That implies you're a fan of, and drawn to avant garde music?...We both know that's not true based on your definition of Let's Go Crazy as avant gard and new wave.

.

Worse, you think something that's childlike or crude without fine crafted innovation prohibits a piece from being avant garde? That's....very wrong. No musiciologist, historian, or hardcore music fan would understand what you were arguing there. That sounds very personal.

.

By the way, "New Wave pop production" isn't the same as saying someone is a new wave band. J. Giles Band were a blues rock band. They added keys and hand claps. So what.

Guys, dont argue with Ufo.he dont like the song and its ok.

treehouse said:

ufoclub said:

I'm sure it's not Avante Gard, because that's exactly why I don't like it. It's loose and fragmented in the same way a child might tell a story or draw a picture crudely without any kind of craft or innovation ......

.

That implies you're a fan of, and drawn to avant garde music?...We both know that's not true based on your definition of Let's Go Crazy as avant gard and new wave.

.

Worse, you think something that's childlike or crude without fine crafted innovation prohibits a piece from being avant garde? That's....very wrong. No musiciologist, historian, or hardcore music fan would understand what you were arguing there. That sounds very personal.

.

By the way, "New Wave pop production" isn't the same as saying someone is a new wave band. J. Giles Band were a blues rock band. They added keys and hand claps. So what.

So then J Giles Band postured as a new wave band to get a hit. And once they did that, at that time they are a new wave band. But who cares about them or their history? I'm putting Let's Go Crazy into the context of the song "Freeze Frame". It doesn't matter if it was put out there by Billy Joel. Think of it like how The Bee Gees became a disco band in the 70's, or Prince became a garage rock trio on Undertaker. Adding the keys, hand claps and the teenage type vibe to Freeze Frame was what made it new wave. These songs are often included in new wave listings.

•

I don't think I said "Let's Go Crazy" was very avante gard in my posts. Avant Gard means something new/innovative/pioneering. "When Doves Cry", "I Would Die 4 U" are more avant gard. What I meant to say is that "Computer Blue" is not avant gard to me or my friends. But now that you bring it up, I do see how "Let's Go Crazy" with it's 50's style backbone of rock mixed with its conceptual preacher intro, electronic handclaps, synths, and beats, Revelations/2nd Coming warnings, spliced in Hendrix finale, and otherwordly epic sense of scale could be a bit avant gard. And the important part is it's cohesive. It works.

•

I grew up with a sense of non interest in pop music from elementary through middle school, In fact what I was listening to by ways of movie soundtracks grew into an appreciation of contemporary/experimental classical music like that of György Ligeti or Penderecki.

•

My ears were opened up by a friend to creative possiblities of texture and mood in pop music when he made me a tape of interesting Beatles songs mixed with other creative pop songs of the mid 80's. At one point he gave me Toto's soundtrack to Dune, but sneaked the entire Purple Rain album on the B-side. I was listening late at night with headphones to the the A-side soundtrack, then switched it over to the Prince album with a lot of cynicism. And I can tell you exactly what I thought: That Let's Go Crazy had a remarkable epic feel with it's intro, sense of scale, and its rock in roll glory ending (but it retained a new wave feel with it's perfectly mixed in synths, electronic hand claps, teenage passion perspective, and most importantly: other worldy vibe that seemed far removed from the reality of a studio recording or natural sound). Take Me With You sounded very cheesy and unprofessional, and then only Computer Blue and Baby I'm a Star seemed to grate on my nerves as uninteresting arrangements and lyrics over boring beats. But things like When Doves Cry seemed very original and new in sound (avante gard), and Purple Rain was simply beautiful and glorious, with a very interesting conclusion that almost hinted at the pitfall of reaching fame in its tone.

•

There is nothing new or experimental in "Computer Blue" for me. It seems very basic, 70's rock retro, and not engaging to me in that particular album track. I guess the intro of female voices with the flanged feedback sounds like an avant gard element, but not really. I think some of the transitional moments sound like prog rock of the 70's, but I hate most of that old stuff as "musicians" fetishizing (is that a word?) technique and musical mathematics. There's a word used in the art world: "Activate". It's the word used to talk abut how a certain element or combination of elements just causes it to work on some primal emotional complex way. A work gets "activated". For me, the extended version of Computer Blue does get activated and reaches a plateau that is very otherworldly, addictive, with a huge sense of scale and drama. I like that version. But cutting those parts just left a song that never picks up for me, and keeps switching from one unremarkable gear to another.

•

Editing Computer Blue was akin to someone cutting out the preacher intro and final guitar solo finale of "Let's Go Crazy" leaving only the normal pop song. But even then, the remaining core conventional pop song, Let's Go Crazy, has a more engaging melody, hook and interlocked barrage of musical elements that work together (to my ears).

•

But yes, of course "Let's Go Crazy" is dressed up as New Wave with it's conceptual intro, effects, electronic voicings, and lyrical themes of mixing wild teenage passion with some elder warning of ressurection of Christ or Revelations. It uses a core reference of standard rocknroll as a backbone but mutates it into something different by bringing in that baseball stadium vibe with the reverb, echo, and the tone of the keyboards. Not to mention the robotic feel of the hand claps, the robotic performance style during the extended suite sections.

•

The new vimeo released slow version of the song is NOT new wave. It's been stripped of all the elements that made it new way, including the energy. The new version is retro 70's fat rocker. As is much of the sound of his current girl band.

•

Prince as an artist sometimes assumes or mimicks popular styles in the same way a home builder incorporates popular styles into a new house. Him wearing a new wave hat might not even be that interesting to him personally as much as a popularity strategy.

•

You hit a key phenonemon by mentioning the word "Hard core fan". A hard core Prince fan is not hearing the same thing a nuetral fan of music. They are putting it into some kind of context that is suported by all his past songs. Their ears have mutated to pick out and make certain elements into the focus or entertainment value. It becomes almost like a mother appreciating work done by their very familiar child at that point.

•

I try to listen to Prince music in both ways: in context of his own work, and as music without regard for him, in context of my entire perceived music landscape.

•

And, of course, music is a personal experience. And based on my personal experience I reflect it in my own personal music doodles like this:

•

https://soundcloud.com/uf...ady-powers

versus this:

https://soundcloud.com/uf...prince-mix

[Edited 7/10/14 8:33am]

tobydavies said:

ufoclub said:

It's easily the most forgetable musical idea on the album for me (and for most reviewers and even casual fans).

For you? Maybe.

For most reviewers and casual fans? That's not my opinion and I don't believe it's the opinion of most Prince fans. In fact, I'd guess that Computer Blue was one of the top 3 favourite tracks on the album.

I'd put it in the top 3, along with The Beautiful Ones & Let's Go Crazy.

ufoclub said:

Avant Gard means something new/innovative/pioneering.

.

No. Your post was all over the place, with purposely too much to address but this is one statement is factually incorrect. Avant Garde can simply mean creating work based around an unusual idea. Musique Concrete will always be Avant Garde. Noise music. Minimalist. All Avant Garde, even when not pioneering.

.

We can continue the discussion on the non-Prince section of this forum if you want, but to be honest, as much as you're entitled not to like the song, your defense of that opinion is flailing into territory that's over your head and off topic.

treehouse said:

ufoclub said:

.

No. Your post was all over the place, with purposely too much to address but this is one statement is factually incorrect. Avant Garde can simply mean creating work based around an unusual idea. Musique Concrete will always be Avant Garde. Noise music. Minimalist. All Avant Garde, even when not pioneering.

.

We can continue the discussion on the non-Prince section of this forum if you want, but to be honest, as much as you're entitled not to like the song, your defense of that opinion is flailing into territory that's over your head and off topic.

I thought my posts were addressing everything you were posting or debating fully. And at times with reference. I think I even placed the paragraphs in order of your last post's sections.

Avant Garde means: from French, "advance guard" or "vanguard", literally "fore- guard".

Okay let's keep it simple:

How is the production of "Computer Blue" avant garde to your ears?

ufoclub said:

XNY said:

Lovesexy...overproduced ?!

You've lost your mind

I would totally agree that Lovesexy had a crazu ornate sense of overproduction of all kinds of clashing elements. But that was the concept Prince had in mind. Unbridled passionate explosion of energy without regard for sounding cool.... and it bombed here in the states.just throw in stuff quickly, loudly, and move on. Wasn't it reworked and mixed in two weeks?

In some ways Lovesexy sounds as though it was recorded as it was being created- another reason I love the album. But there is no way I can picture anyone, even Prince, coming up with a cohesive head-trip like Lovesexy.

I agree with some of the TheBannishedOnes' choices, especially a majority of Emancipation. But Lovesexy has a certain "one and done" feel to it. Even "Eye No" which used to be "The Ball"(?) feels fresh and new. In contrast, songs like "We Can Funk" and "Can't Stop this Feeling I Got" seem over-produced on GB and I prefer the original versions.

*I've said this before but if you add/replace "Escape", "Glam Slam" remix, "Scarlett Pussy", "I Wish U" extended, and "This is not music, this is a trip" to make Lovesexy Deluxe -as I like to call it- it's truly brilliant and worth the time to burn together Back in the day, I made several cassette tapes like this, which took a lot longer to make *

callimnate said:

The man KILLED Endorphinemachine ans Zannalee.

Cosign this.

delirious said:

callimnate said:

The man KILLED Endorphinemachine ans Zannalee.

Cosign this.

What you don't know is he laced Zannalee with freebase heroinized meth...so now you're tripping on a ditty called "I Like It There" and you have no. idea. why.

ufoclub said:

Avant Garde means: from French, "advance guard" or "vanguard", literally "fore- guard".

Okay let's keep it simple:

How is the production of "Computer Blue" avant garde to your ears?

Nobody is interested in trying to talk you into liking the song, but in keeping it simple, you simply do not understand the terms you're trying to discuss. Avant Garde in relation to music, or art is a broad term with a specific meaning... it does not require one to be a pioneer. It's a style, a mindset, and approach where one breaks rules and challenges orthodox thought. Until you can grasp it, nobody will be able to convince you it's a suitable descriptive to a song you dislike beyond rational explaination. Which is okay, your response to music doesn't have to be rational. And again, even your own link to a review describes the qualities which make it avant garde. I'm done going in circles on this.