All in my own humble opinion... (inspired a bit from reading Uptown's interview with Alex Hahn, the writer of the upcoming "Possessed: The XXX and XXX of Prince."

In a lot of interpretations and critical reviews of Prince's music, critics usually seem to be coming from a rock context that devalues the R&B elements of P's music. Coming from the perspective that they do, it is no surprise that they often mourn for the Wendy & Lisa days/Revolution days.

A few things that a lot of critics seem to miss about Prince...

1. His R&B funk roots. Yes he grew up in the culturally hybrid MPLS... and listened to Joni Mitchell, etc. And even did the new wave funk/punk thing with Dirty Mind. But the most consistent recurring musical themes in the 25 years of his music have been from the R&B genre.

They miss this possibly because for a while, Prince farmed out his more obvious R&B/funk style to side projects--The Time, etc. Regardless of who was performing it, it was still his music. By the end of the 80s there were no more side projects, so these impulses started appearing with greater frequency in his own music.

2. What people cite as P's most adventurous musical period and their decrying his subsequent "stagnation" is really attributed to two things:

(a) His age. The fact that he was making this adventurous music in his 20s, when most people are adventurous about everything. Lovesexy was released in 1988 and signals for many P's decline... P was 30 by then.

And yes, he was beginning to take more control over his life and career. For better or worse, who doesn't? P felt, like most post-20somethings, that he had finished learning what he needed to learn from others.

Understanding that P is now a 44- 45 year old man will help to explain why he cannot continue to straddle the fence of ambiguous moral and spiritual messages. That kind of "controversy" works with youth, and even works for a few projects, but after a while, damn man figure your shit out and come back to me. No one wants to hear a 45 year old man ask the same questions that he's been asking for 25 years. That's simply not growth and maturity. We may not agree with the answers Prince has arrived at, however, at least he's finding some resolution to the questions he once asked himself.

(b) P had learned pretty much most of the musical vocabulary he would use for his artistry. During the learning process, it was interesting because each subsequent release had new musical phrases and concepts played out. New sounds. But what happens when he finished that lesson? What happens when he's finished those lessons? What next?

3. I wonder if writers who focus on Prince are as guilty of sequestering Prince in solitude as much as they accuse him of withdrawing and being reclusive. Any look at Prince, and attempt to explain his popularity in the 80s, and subsequent relative mainstream invisibility in the 90s, cannot do so convincingly (to me atleast) without looking at what's going on in the culture at large and industry of the time period.

Not only the people around the Prince, but the state of the culture and industry help to explain Prince's popularity in the 80s... and they also help to explain his invisbility in the 90s. P can't get all the credit for 80s pop stardom no more than he can take all the blame for invisibility in the 90s.

4. Laslty, many are failing to see Prince's continued influence in music by ignoring his impact on the current wave of R&B music (dubbed "neo-soul") that has even been outdistancing hip hop in terms of artistic appeal. If you're too busy playing in the rock music sandbox, you won't find Prince's children. Prince is one of the god-fathers of the neo-soul movement hands down, and that's where you see his legacy more than anything else at this time.

Ahh, Ditto.

RIAA
'nuff said.

Excellent post! I certainly agree with you about his 80s/90s dichotomy of popularity. The culture at the time was ripe for someone like Prince in the 80s, but in the anger-ridden, depressed angst of the early 90s, Prince had no place. It's sad, really, that the cultural mold has so much to do with whether someone's music will be played.

NuPwrSoul said:

Great post, Guru!

Everything up to this was on point, I thought; in the past couple of years (at least) I've heard (and read) many critics who have brought up Prince's heavy influence within the "Neo Soul" movement. I'm not saying that most of them do acknowledge it, because I don't know what the ratio is of those critics that do, and those that don't. But I haven't found it to be a dearth of critics who acknowledge the debt the "Neo Soul" kids owe to Prince.

And I wholeheartedly agree with the rest of your opinion.

NuPwrSoul said:

exactly--

Uptown and Per etc are guilty of this too..yeah I said it

.
[This message was edited Sat Mar 8 12:38:47 PST 2003 by rdhull]

Supernova said:

Yeah I think you're right. My statements were moreso a response to what I read Alex Hahn say in the Uptown interview, that Prince was no longer an influential songwriter as he was in the 80s. I don't know that he was ever THAT influential period. While the industry was hailing him as the next best thing--a fad of the moment--there were lots of people trying to cop his style, but I don't know that he really influenced folks direction. Not in the way he seems to have influences the neo-soulers.

Granted Hahn may have a case in point if he's talking about "Newpower Soul" or "Rave Un2..." not being particularly influential. But I'm not going to let him get off so easily. If you're going to say Prince has fallen, you're going to have to deal with the fact that quite a few folks are lifting him up. And they aren't just reminiscing for the Revolution either.
.
[This message was edited Sat Mar 8 12:46:35 PST 2003 by NuPwrSoul]

rdhull said:

Exaclty. I include them as well in this category. If you check the interview with Hahn in the latest Uptown, he says he came to Prince from an interest in rock / alternative rock. I can certainly understand why someone who's lookin for that side of Prince would not be too interested in The Rainbow Children or the One Nite Alone show.

NuPwrSoul said:

I must say I agree also...there is a lot more of Prince's influence in today's younger artists than they'd care to admit.

Hey LCD long time no see. I gotta say that I love your sig. Just one of the truisms that we've been blessed with from Baba Lau RD

NuPwrSoul said:

Hey baby Yeah I just HAD to quote that, there's so much truth in it.

Excellent analysis...couldn't agree more...except, maybe, in the area of "influence"...or rather, whether or not Prince is "still" influential...most writers and critics who say he's not and make no mention of his influence in the "neo-soul" genre, I think, do so because they feel the neo-soul movement was inspired by "80's" Prince...their main point seems to be that nothing he's doing musically for the last 10+ years is really inspiring anyone in music today...his music is all good, sometimes horrid yet sometimes brilliant, but not really making waves in pop, or r&b for that matter...so they dismiss whatever influence Prince had on neo-soul, because it's not recent influence...

NuPwrSoul said:

Yeah, and I read parts of it today and he claims he has no issue with Prince etc..mutherfucker please. Tell someone else that cause I aint the one. He claims he has no bias... pfft. I have to read it all to get the ful feel but from the parts I read shows somethings up regardles of his claims that he is being fair and impartial.

Great insight, NuPwr. I'd just like to add that there are also people listening to Prince from a soul perspective, who had been wondering where Prince's 'umph' went. These critics are not only coming from rock perspective, or even thinking about The Revolution.

Albums like Emancipation, Newpower Soul and Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic especially, while all enjoyable in their own right, lack something spiritual. I'm talking about that spirit Prince seemlessly appeared able to display on much of his his 80s work. Whilst Prince has not lost his ability to muster such spirits when performing live, especially aftershows, I do believe he has not effectively translated his spirit onto record during the much of his 90s work.

That is why albums such as The Truth and especially The Rainbow Children are inspiring to most of his critics. From whatever perspective you're coming from, these are records where he has been able to burn high on record.

wellbeyond said:

If that's their frame of reference, then that too is a double standard heaped upon Prince.

When critics talk about Creed being a poor man's Pearl Jam, so to speak, they don't bring up the fact that they also think Pearl Jam has fallen off artistically over the past 6 or 7 years (and they do when reviewing PJ albums since about their 4th album onward); when critics talk about Stevie Wonder's influence in younger musicians, they don't bring up the fact that Stevie's music (with the exception of Hotter Than July) from the 80s onward isn't up to the standards of his '70s output (until reviewing Stevie's latest music); the same goes for Miles Davis and his influence, with the exception of the 80s onward. The critics never add any qualifiers for other artists' influence, why should there be for Prince's influence?

It's just this kind of diverse, out-of-the-box thinking that keeps me coming back to this site willing to wade through all the other nonsense.

Having been on the Internet for over 10 years I can say it's about the only place left where any kind of challenging, intelligent thought is still taking place. Mind you, there's not much of it, but it hasn't been completed killed off yet.

It certainly isn't taking place on AMP where it feels 99% male dominated, most of which appear incapable of relating to the outside world.

And the fact that Uptown's biggest supporters are the kings of this Prince geekdom should tell you all you need to know about how diverse their set of opinions have become.

Talk about your "Stagnation".

I'm not looking for opinions I agree with, I'm looking for opinions that are diverse in nature, objective, intelligent, insightful and that ultimately are challenging to my own.

Most critics overlook the top of his head.

NPS

Excellent post.

NPS
well done.
Njoyed reading this post.

Nice post, as usual.

Worth adding, is that a lot of the critical evaluation of Prince's work centers around his sales figures. At one point in his career, he was guaranteed to sell a million records just by putting his name on the disc, and many critics (and a lot of fans too) somehow equate his lack of commercial success with his musical merit.

Hendrix NEVER even cracked the top 20 - was never a viable commercial force - but MUSICIANS and those that appreciated his artistry knew instantly that he was the real deal. Same goes for Prince. Shit, the man can STILL turn every head (and ear) in any room he walks into, in spite of the fact that he's been reported "missing in action" and "irrelevant" for the past 15 years now.
[This message was edited Mon Mar 10 11:23:44 PST 2003 by herb4]

VERY GOOD post; well written & well thought out.
No need to claim humility for your opinion when you base it on generally accepted truths & reasonable perceptions.


Good points throughout the post, especially:

"Understanding that P is now a 44- 45 year old man will help to explain why he cannot continue to straddle the fence of ambiguous moral and spiritual messages."

For a good while, this was something that I sort of "criticized" P about. There are only so many ways to approach or expose certain subjects or themes in music.


EXCELLENT post.

I agree, albums like New Power Soul would be disgarded faster than Caos and disorder which was criticly aclaimed. I can admit to this with Prince being one of my favorite Rock artist in general. But even Rock is a direct result of Blues and r&b but that opens up a whole different can of worms.
[This message was edited Mon Mar 10 12:13:49 PST 2003 by Meloh9]

Interesting post, but maybe things are even simpler?


1) most critics and general media just cannot be bothered

-his music is just too much effort to track down

-his media games don't impress anyone


Media isn't about drawing attention to talented musicians. It's about exploiting a fresh new face, and making $$$ off it. There's no $$$ to be made in putting Prince on the cover of Rolling Stone and publishing an essay on The Rainbow Children, and it's musical structure, or lyrical intent.NPS didn't sell truckloads of units, so why devote space to considering it in print or t.v. time? There IS $$$ to be made on putting Justin Timberlake on the cover and pimping his coaster, though.There just isn't anything Prince can do to draw attention to his art, because he's alienated too many fairweather fans, media,etc. Justin Timberlake is playing the game, and his label is pimping him.

Let's be honest, what drew attention to Prince? 1999,Purple Rain.And he sold sex. If he came hitting with "Xenophhobia" and TRC in 1984 instead, he wouldn't have been a star, regardless of the music. It was sex sells, which drew people in, and forced them to listen to the music more carefully. As soon as the music waned in the slightest, people moved on.

Prince could put together the greatest albums in the worlfd in the next 5 years, but the world won't care. It's a fresh face and sex that sells.45 year old Prince is not the vision of sexiness in 2003.And he plays games people don't want to follow. And he has also made himself and his music inaccessable.

Getting deep about Prince isn't anyones priority in the media music world.Don't worry about "why not"?

warning2all said:

Which is why he will never release vault material.

Cool Post NPS.however I feel everything stated about Prince that you said could also be said about James Brown&Especially Sly Stone.I think the Music Critics for the Most part have been very fair to Prince as a Artist.age aion't got nothing to do with anything."Sexual Healing" by Marvin Gaye at age 43 was a Big Hit for Him&He Laid the Pipe Work for balancing the Spiritual&Sexual just as Prince had done early on in His Career.alot of Today's Acts Respect Prince but I alot of them also talk about Him&His Work in a Past tense kind of way.it's not just Critics but also Artists who truly want to see&Hear the Cat rolling again the Right Way.

rdhull said:[quote]

NuPwrSoul said:

Understood. However comma -- P made some of his funkiest cuts ever when the Rev was in the cut. Love or $. The long stroke of Raspberry Beret. Lady Cab Driver. 17 Days. Hello. Most critics ignore jams like those.

namepeace said:[quote]

rdhull said:

The world doesn't mourn for W&L, they miss the catchy POP singles. D&P's success shows that.

Prince is best at writing POP music.He just is.Fans like you cannot come to terms with that, you think everything Prince does is a shining example of talent. Nope. His r&b is passable and compitent, but not especially noteworthy. He can do good funk, but nothing radically revolutionary (no pun intended).Same with this new jazz kick.

Since 'The Black Album', Prince has had a hard time dealing with claims of being too white; he's trying to show blackness in his music. He has a hard time accepting that he IS better at writing catchy pop tunes. He wants to be a black funk/r&b performer, but it's "Raspberry Beret", "Lets Go Crazy", and "Diamonds and Pearls" that makes the world pay attention, makes critics take note and investigate his music more.Deservedly so. Those are solid tunes.

Tell me, NewPowerSoul, why should any critic or music lover really appreciate:

Rave un2 the Joy Fantastic
Newpower Soul
Chaos and Disorder
Come
The Vault
GOld Experience
...and so on?

In the grand scheme of music history, or pop culture, these just aren't especially noteworthy albums.You may dig them. I dig them.But they just are truly variations of things Prince had done before, and mostly better. Where's the news in that?


It may be hard for a Prince fan to admit- but those just aren't trendsetting, original, or great works. Sorry.
what it all comes down to is songwriting that has mass appeal- his r&b music just cannot touch his pop compositions.

I've seen you slam the Revolution on this post before, could it be that you are insecure that the world just may be right, and the trail DOES get drier after the Revolution disbanded? I think so. Come to terms with it. Deal.

Think about it like this...

1978 For You - Pop Soul
1979 Prince - Pop R & B
1980 Dirty Mind - New Wave / Funk
1981 Controversy - New Wave / Soul with weirder lyrics
1982 1999 - New Wave / Funk with Dance elements
1984 Purple Rain - Pop Rock / Psychedelia
1985 Around The World In A Day - Pop Psychdelia
1986 Parade - Psychdelic Pop Funk Jazz
1987 Sign O' The Times - All of the above but with deeper lyrical introspection
1988 Lovesexy - Gospel-tinged P-Funk
1989 Batman - Pure Pop

and then...

1990 Graffiti Bridge - Pop funk with dated Hip-Hop elements
1991 Diamonds & Pearls - Pop funk with dated Hip-Hop elements
1992 - Pop funk with dated Hip-Hop elements
1993 The Hits / The B-Sides - A Greatest Hits collection
1994 Come - Pop funk
1994 "The Black Album" - Everybody had this already...
1995 The Gold Experience - Pop funk
1996 Chaos And Disorder - Pop Funk
1996 Emancipation - Musically a return to form but lyrically weak
1998 Crystal Ball - A collection of bootlegs, most of which had already been heard by fans and critics
1998 Newpower Soul - Pop Funk
1999 The Vault: Old Friends 4 Sale - A collection of bootlegs, most of which had already been heard by fans and critics
1999 Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic - Pop Funk
2001 The Very Best Of Prince - Another Greatest Hits collection
2001 The Rainbow Children - Jazz-Funk fusion with a religious message

There was no progression musically throughout the 90s.
[This message was edited Tue Mar 11 18:30:54 PST 2003 by BinaryJustin]

BinaryJustin said:

Eye 1/2 agree B.J. but U 4got about The Truth

P never did an acoustic joint in the 70's or 80's!