SpiritOtter said:

Dear Org,

Given that 'we' have now established how, ultimately, it is immaterial what Prince looks like, as long as he is healthy and happy, should 'we' now suggest that he put more blusher on? Perhaps, the situation with his natural 'fro is that he is possibly becoming too black, even for black people? Personally speaking, I hope Prince continues to become more relaxed in his own skin and culture, as I believe he will undoubtedly re-emerge as once again becoming at 'one' with our universal culture, beyond gender/culture/political/religious lines. The latest evidence suggests that this process is happening already in Prince, if one reads into the lyrics of 20Ten; he has become far less militant as a Jehovah's Witness.

Cue the music: Sea of Everything

love,

Spirit

Dear Spirit,

You should know from prior experience that dry British humour is not always understood around these parts. Actually, yes, Prince should definitely put some more blusher on and while he's at it, go a shade lighter in lip-liner too.

I'm happy to see the new look, and I'm sure it's the good influence of Andy. I don't know if any religion will ever be truely at one with the universe, when their beginning concepts mostly start out with a 'cultural divide' but Prince's new ventures with Rebuild the Dream do indicate where he's at socially. Religion is still his prime compass in the JW faith and it's working well for him. Indeed, 'when the spotlight fades, will you settle for a Prince and a sea of everything?'

It's unfortunate that western culture equates success with perfection and that our perception of perfection is so warped.

vitriol said:

Checked!

(Your most stupid thread ever. And THAT is saying something!).

Gee Vitriol, every time I get excited, thinking you're going to launch into a fully fledged, Jonathan Swift Modest Proposal satire, and then you just go and throw a one-liner. (?)

1725topp said:

2elijah said: Although many embraced Prince's afro, when reading between the lines of some of the nasty comments on this site and others about it, the other day, some immediately associated his natural texture of hair as being 'unattractive' immediately, yet isn't that what society have taught some of them? That, that type of hair is not considered 'a standard of beauty? I wonder sometimes if people read between the lines of their comments and don't recognize their own hidden prejudices behind it. For some who claimed they didn't like his afro, because it 'wasn't shaped right', well, some may be honest about that, but some may be using that as an excuse, to not openly admit that they rather his hair stay straightened, to maintain their fantasized, sexy image they've created of him for themselves, and now with him wearing his hair natural, they feel like they've been robbed of that.

*

Frist, thanks for the kind words. You are really highlighting my point that often many people have sensibilities, preferences, tastes, likes, and dislikes and do not know how or why they formed them or that they are rooted in certain cultural notions about race. For instance, when we are children, adults (our parents and other community adults) pass to us their sensibilities and notions of life, and in many cases the adults don’t even realize they are doing it. Once, I was getting my pre-K grandnephew from school, and the teacher said to me in a glowing voice: “We are so happy to have Tay in our class. He is our little gentleman; all the light-skin girls just love him, and you know that’s something!” To the people who think I may be lying, most of the African Americans on this site will know that you can’t make this stuff up. Now, while I was horrified at the statement, the teacher stood their glowing, just beaming with joy that Tay was something of value because the light-skin girls like him. And, of course, Tay is just standing there smiling because he is being complimented. He’s four; he doesn’t know any better. In the past, I would have gone off, but I took one look at this caramel toned woman wearing blue contacts with blond and red streaks in her hair, realized that she is drowning in her own self-hate, and said, “Well, we try to teach Tay to be nice to everybody and to be thankful that anyone appreciates and returns his kindness.” And, then, I got as far from that woman as I could.

*

So, in most cases, people have prejudices and don’t know they have them. And you and I are not saying that it makes them bad people. But, especially for whites, who often exist as the majority, they almost never are forced to ask or analyze how or why they feel a certain way about aesthetics because they are surround by people with the same general aesthetic tastes. They don’t usually experience what W. E. B. DuBois termed as “Double Consciousness,” which is the notion of always viewing or comparing oneself through the eyes of a ruling culture that has an ingrained or historically disseminated low opinion of you. This is, essentially, what “crossing over” is all about. Yes, it’s about making more money, but the notion that only by crossing over can one make more money and purchase a certain cultural status is innately about race. As J. T. Matthews of the Five Heartbeats states, “A crossover ain’t nothing but a double cross.” And, Eddie King, Jr., adds, “Why are niggers always crossing over? You never see them crossing over to us.” So when most whites and even African people say, I like Prince more with straight hair, while I don’t think it is their intent to perpetuate white supremacist notions, I do find it odd that they don’t realize how much of their preference is influenced by their cultural aesthetics, which, in some sense, though they may not mean to do, marginalizes if not denounces African aesthetics.

*

2elijah said:

Thanks, for never trying to put a bandaid over my opinions, when we discuss these type topics, that may involve race, as many are not as comfortable to discuss these type topics, and often go the route of sugarcoating it. I have to tell you I have run across many like your grandnephew's teacher, throughout my life, and have shaken my head in disbelief over it.

In regards to the comment you made about Madame C.J. Walker, you definitely did not say she was the main reason Blacks started straightening their hair, you basically mentioned her, as just one of the influences and also a contributor , that led many Blacks to straighten their hair. I also agree that when some have commented that they prefer Prince with straight hair, that they also may not realize how their preference and opinion of that, could be influenced by societal, European standards of beauty vs not accepting Prince's natural, textured hair on that same level or giving it the same value.

vainandy said: Do I prefer Prince with straight hair though? Yes, I always have. It's one of the things that has made him look more unique than most other artists. It just looks more natural to his natural gay self, especially the "I Wanna Be Your Lover" hair. That bitch was slingin' that hair back then! But no, the "I Wanna Be Your Lover" hair wouldn't look good on him nowadays either. I just like straight hair better on Prince anyway. Nothing to do with race. Hell, he looks his natural gay self with straight hair. Although with Prince, he's like the queen in "The Birdcage". You could dress him up as butch as you wanted to and he'd STILL be fish as hell.

1725Stopp:

First, while I usually disagree with your posts, they are mostly funny, not malicious, and often insightful. Second, in a sense you are making my point about the notion that Prince has different fans that have come to love him for different reasons. But, I have two disagreements with your post. To say that “It just looks more natural to his natural gay self” is to say that an African American man with his naturally wooly hair would look/appear unnatural. And, more specifically, your statement also implies that somehow African Americans don’t look natural in their natural African state. (I’m not saying that you were intending to say this, but this is what your words imply.) Whether or not he looks his natural gay self can be debated because, of course, some of us don’t think that he’s gay, but it seems that you are looking or perceiving Prince so much through your own gay lens or perception of the world—in the same way that I have a hetero lens or perception of the world—that, like some whites who can only perceive of things from a Eurocentric perspective, you seemingly can only see him as being natural or proper when he appears more effeminate. And my question is, “why can’t he be naturally effeminate with a ‘fro?,” especially since some of the sexiest sisters I’ve ever seen are those with low haircuts who are sexy because they are physically beautiful and are also comfortable in their own skin.

*

2elijah said:

I have to agree with your response to vainandy's post, and this is no disrespect to vainandy, as he and I have had many race-related conversations where we have agreed, and if we didn't we respectfully disagreed, but yes, I find that many straight, Black male entertainers seem to be more accepted in the entertainment world, if they have a effiminate appearance, as we've seen over the years with many artists, and to me that sort of gives the wrong impression or questionable impression of their sexuality, leading some to believe, that they must be gay, because they straighten their hair or wear clothes, that are similar to what a female would wear. I don't believe Prince is gay at all, but I have found that many of Prince's gay fan base, not all of course, over the years, seem to already have made up their minds that that he is gay because either they want him to be based on how he presented of himself, early in his career, which led to questions about his sexuality, as he references curiosities of that in his song 'Controversy'.

[Edited 9/22/12 13:12pm]

SynthiaRose said:

Madame CJ Walker didn't cause blacks to begin straigtening their hair. If you want to blame someone for encouraging straightening as an expression of self-hatred, blame slavemasters who had house slaves use actual clothing irons to press their hair long before Walker came on the scene because they didn't want to see "slave hair" in the house. Workers had to cover their hair or straighten it.

Even so, that doesn't mean that's why blacks continued to do it in Walker's era or even now. To suggest that "socio-historical" context, as you say, is stagnant and one-dimensional after all these generations is narrow-minded. There's no reason to keep suggesting contemporary people are under the same mindset -- especially since the 70s intervened when a completely different cultural mindset was preached. There are a lot of principles at work when it comes to hair straightening today.

If you read my post carefully, I never said that Walker started or caused African Americans to straighten their hair; I said that she “exploited” the self-hatred that caused African Americans to straighten their hair. And, I am well on record with several posts on this site that black self-hatred is caused by white supremacy, which includes the enslavement of African peoples by whites, so your first point null and void.

*

As for your second point, we must agree to disagree. However, most reputable African American sociologist, psychologist, and psychiatrist have stated in numerous published articles over the last twenty years that African Americans still suffer from the lingering psychological pains of slavery--such as self-hatred--because it has never been adequately addressed. Additionally, your statement " There's no reason to keep suggesting contemporary people are under the same mindset -- especially since the 70s intervened when a completely different cultural mindset " is so myopic that it is laughable. Yes, there is a more African centered movement that has existed since slavery that peaks and falls periodically, and the seventies was a time of an Afrocentric peak. However, since the vast majority of African Americans have always embraced integration over black nationalism, the Afrocentric movement, while impactful--especially in the arts, never converted the mass of African Americans who believed that integration and assimilation were the best modes of achieving first-class citizenship. So, as James Baldwin wrote, America is such an ocean of white supremacy that even a man like James Brown—who could change how millions of African Americans identified with themselves with "Say It Loud (I'm Black and I'm Proud)" and Brown's record label recorded Hank Ballard singing "How You Gone Get Respect (When You Ain't Cut Your Process Yet)?,"—would eventually return to processing his own hair because he was, ultimately, unable to destroy the demons of white supremacy in his own mind, much like most of black America.

*

Now, to be clear, perming one's hair alone does not mean that one hates oneself. But, if one cannot fathom ever engaging the public wearing one's natural hair, then there is a great possibility that one is suffering from the same self-hatred that afflicted the people during Walker's time. So, yes, "There are a lot of principles at work when it comes to hair straightening today," but the most powerful principle remains black self-hatred.

SuperSoulFighter said:

vitriol said:

Checked!

(Your most stupid thread ever. And THAT is saying something!).

Most of YOUR posts aren't exactly highly intelligent either, but this one is

I'm wondering how many of my posts may you have read since you've been an orger for under 3 months.

Anyway (and FYI) I'm not here to write intelligent posts (I reserve my intelligence for other places).

I just come here to laugh.

Bohemian67 said:

vitriol said:

Checked!

(Your most stupid thread ever. And THAT is saying something!).

Gee Vitriol, every time I get excited, thinking you're going to launch into a fully fledged, Jonathan Swift Modest Proposal satire, and then you just go and throw a one-liner. (?)

More than enough for people like you.

What did you expect? Want more? So, pay for it!

Among others...

...thank you 1725topp, Zelijah and Bohemian67, for the intended discourse.

Last but not quite least, thank you, too, to vitriol, for her contribution.

love,

Spirit

^"Her"?

vitriol,

Well, don't you act like a pussy?

love,

Spirit

Looka here!

...and the idiot thinks he's funny!

virtriol,

You make me smile.

But let's digress, shall we? I am curious; what really drew you to Prince & consolidated you as someone who appreciates his music?

love,

Spirit

What drew me to his music?

Well, HIS MUSIC itself.

His music was so great in 1986, when I started (though I disliked PR and ATWIAD the year they came out). And it kept on being until 2004 (excluded).

Now he's just a clown and his music is a circus orchestra.

Fair point, vitriol.

So, you were originally a Parade/Dream Factory/Camille/Crystal Ball/Sign 'O' The Times/The Black Album/Lovesexy fan. What a phenomenal time to begin your musical appreciation of Prince. I can see why Musicology/3121/Planet Earth/Lotusflower/20Ten does not in any way, compared to the music you grew up with.

How old were you in 1986?

love,

Spirit

I was 24 in 1986. A great age for a great time.

As I told you, I didn't find anything special about PR in 84 (except for 17Days) and I wasn't prepared for ATWIAD in 85.

I bought Parade in 86 and before SOTT came out I had already bought the full back catalogue.

I bought SOTT on May 7th 87 and I'll never forget that day. I felt the world could end at any time since then and I wouldn't be missing anything as I had already been graced with the best album that could ever be created.

Getting Lovesexy and TBA just after that was the icing on an unbelievable cake.

(Hell, I hate you Anji: you made me break my one-liners tradition! ).

OldFriends4Sale said:

vainandy said:

I thought Prince was cute as hell with the afro during the "For You" era but he looks horrible with one now. I don't know if he still no longer eats meat but his face is too narrow now and it looks horrible on him. Do I prefer Prince with straight hair though? Yes, I always have. It's one of the things that has made him look more unique than most other artists. It just looks more natural to his natural gay self, especially the "I Wanna Be Your Lover" hair. That bitch was slingin' that hair back then! But no, the "I Wanna Be Your Lover" hair wouldn't look good on him nowadays either.

I just like straight hair better on Prince anyway. Nothing to do with race. Hell, he looks his natural gay self with straight hair. Although with Prince, he's like the queen in "The Birdcage". You could dress him up as butch as you wanted to and he'd STILL be fish as hell.

lol u made my day

for short hair I love his Parade look

My favorite is his "Around The World In A Day" hair. It really brought out his Sue Ellen Ewing eyes.

vitriol,

I listened to Sign 'O' The Times last night, late, in these unbelievably great headphones...and OH MY GOD; I mean, I have listened to the album I don't know how many times...but what an astounding piece of art/music/work. I might just listen to The Black Album/Lovesexy tonight, thanks to your reminder.

So, that makes you about 50 years old.

Do you ever feel old, vitriol?

love,

Spirit

P.S. By the way, GREAT taste regarding 17 Days. I like When Doves Cry, too.

^I feel old since I became 30... (still some days to get 50, though. I could still die at 49... ).

Still, I'm youger than that old tart that gets us visiting places like this.

vitriol,

You're making me laugh now. See? You are nice.

Enjoy your night and thanks for the conversation.

love,

Spirit

SpiritOtter said:

See? You are nice.

[whisper mode] I know, I know. But please don't tell anybody! [whisper mode/]

SpiritOtter said:

vitriol,

I listened to Sign 'O' The Times last night, late, in these unbelievably great headphones...and OH MY GOD; I mean, I have listened to the album I don't know how many times...but what an astounding piece of art/music/work. I might just listen to The Black Album/Lovesexy tonight, thanks to your reminder.

So, that makes you about 50 years old.

Do you ever feel old, vitriol?

love,

Spirit

P.S. By the way, GREAT taste regarding 17 Days. I like When Doves Cry, too.

i've listened 2 those albums in the 1980s with 'walkmen' headphones and thought i was hearing the music and years much later in buying and using top notch headphones I hear the music in ways that it sounds like im hearing 4 the 1st time... another reason i fell in love with ATWIAD all over again along with the PR era music and the boots etc

well SpiritOtter

1 thing this thread has pressed 2 me is as a mod

i wish there was an easy way 2 know peoples heritage culture nationality

i think it would start out many discussions in a way that we would all

have a better attempt at understand where each other is coming from

Im OldFriends4Sale ... New Yorker and Gemini lol

whatever..as long as he looks as himself..

am sure he is good looking when he's got a tan, never seen him ever with a Sun tan

" the sun, the moon, the stars, in love we are, forever always..."

1725topp said:

*

*

First, while I usually disagree with your posts, they are mostly funny, not malicious, and often insightful. Second, in a sense you are making my point about the notion that Prince has different fans that have come to love him for different reasons. But, I have two disagreements with your post. To say that “It just looks more natural to his natural gay self” is to say that an African American man with his naturally wooly hair would look/appear unnatural. And, more specifically, your statement also implies that somehow African Americans don’t look natural in their natural African state. (I’m not saying that you were intending to say this, but this is what your words imply.) Whether or not he looks his natural gay self can be debated because, of course, some of us don’t think that he’s gay, but it seems that you are looking or perceiving Prince so much through your own gay lens or perception of the world—in the same way that I have a hetero lens or perception of the world—that, like some whites who can only perceive of things from a Eurocentric perspective, you seemingly can only see him as being natural or proper when he appears more effeminate. And my question is, “why can’t he be naturally effeminate with a ‘fro?,” especially since some of the sexiest sisters I’ve ever seen are those with low haircuts who are sexy because they are physically beautiful and are also comfortable in their own skin.

*

vainandy said: White people can dye, perm, and do anything they want to with their hair to make it look better but black people can't?

*

My only concern with your question is that you are seemingly ignoring the socio-historical context that caused African Americans to begin straightening their hair. Madam C. J. Walker—whom I wish people would stop presenting as a hero during Black History Month—became the first millionaire because she was able to exploit black self-hatred because African Americans have spent centuries in America being told that they are inferior because of their African traits, which, of course, includes their wooly hair. (Never mind that Jesus has wooly hair, but that’s a different debate for a different time.) So, on the surface of your question, yes, anybody has the right to experiment with their physical aesthetics for no other reason than just do something different. But, I do think that it is irresponsible not to acknowledge or to minimize the socio-historical context of why so many African Americans straighten their hair because it makes it difficult to address very real and lingering issues of black self-hatred as well as unrecognized prejudices that some whites may have.

I've seen Prince with his natural afro in the "For You" era and he looked really great with it. But the Prince of today with one doesn't look great at all. I guess it's from 30 years of seeing all the different hairstyles and flamboyant outfits that outrageous is what looks "natural" on Prince rather than a natural look itself. Your eyes become conditioned to it and it becomes what you're used to seeing. A natural looking Prince of today reminds me of when I would be out at the club and see someone I had never seen before and everyone would be like "Who is that?" and someone else would say..."Oh, that's Miss so and so out of drag"....It would be a well known drag queen that no one had ever seen out of drag and he actually looked more strange out of drag than he did in drag because he had dressed in drag for soooo long and had become soooo well known for it, that his own natural self was starting to look the part of the image he portrayed so when you saw him, you could still see parts of Miss (whoever) mixed in with what was supposed to be a natural looking man but instead ended up looking more like something inbetween the two. It's very hard to explain. OK, it's also kinda like someone who wears glasses all the time. I'm not talking about someone who wears glasses strictly for reading, I'm talking about someone who has to wear glasses ALL the time. If you ever see that person when they take their glasses off, their eyes look strange. They don't look the same way they did when you've seen them through the glasses. Or also like the old saying..."Those two have been married so long they're starting to look alike" which I've seen to be true with many couples. Prince has played the fish for sooooo long that no matter what he ever does to try to natural or butch up, it's going to look completely unnatural on him.

As for the reasons why black people started straightening their hair in the first place, I am well aware that this country has been extremely unfair to black people and they have had to work twice as hard as white people to be successful. I'm also aware that they've had to "whiten up" both in looks and in culture to be accepted in the white world which shouldn't even be a "white world" in the first place and should be a multiracial world but it has been a white world in America. Don't wear this, it looks too black. Don't wear your hair this way, it looks too black. Don't talk too loud, it might scare white people. Don't show your anger if you're mad, white people might think you're violent. Hell, even down to a little thing like music also. Hell, the reason there's no good R&B music now is from all that crossing over that was going on in the mid to late 1980s with black artists watering down and "whitening down" their music to get onto pop radio.

But as for looks and style, this is America which is supposed to be multiracial and everything is supposed to be up for grabs by everybody, even though it hasn't been that way. If it looks good on you, wear it. If a black person looks good with straight hair, wear it. If a white person looks good with curly hair, wear it. No, straight hair doesn't look good on every black person no more than curly hair looks good on all white people. Prince looks great with straight hair but James Brown, especially his older years, and Bobby Rush look horrible with straight hair. Their hair looked like stiff unnatural wigs on top of their head while Prince's was more bushy and flowing almost like a woman's hair. James Brown looked much better with his natural hair and Bobby Rush, even though jheri curls have BEEN out of style, he still looks better with that curl than he did with that perm. Some people can just pull it off and others can't. I'm not talking in terms of race, I'm just talking in terms of what looks good on a particular shaped head and what doesn't. That's the queen in me coming out, we LOVE fashion.

2elijah said:

2 elijah said:

I have to agree with your response to vainandy's post, and this is no disrespect to vainandy, as he and I have had many race-related conversations where we have agreed, and if we didn't we respectfully disagreed, but yes, I find that many straight, Black male entertainers seem to be more accepted in the entertainment world, if they have a effiminate appearance, as we've seen over the years with many artists, and to me that sort of gives the wrong impression or questionable impression of their sexuality, leading some to believe, that they must be gay, because they straighten their hair or wear clothes, that are similar to what a female would wear. I don't believe Prince is gay at all, but I have found that many of Prince's gay fan base, not all of course, over the years, seem to already have made up their minds that that he is gay because either they want him to be based on how he presented of himself, early in his career, which led to questions about his sexuality, as he references curiosities of that in his song 'Controversy'.

Apparently, the overly butch shit hoppers didn't get that memo because they're what have dominated the charts for almost 20 years. Although, most of them are a bunch of closet trade. I agree that in the 1980s, black male entertainers had to tone it down to get onto white radio but I wouldn't say they had to be feminine. They had to be "safe". There's nothing feminine about Lionel Richie, Smokey Robinson, The Four Tops, and Kool and The Gang, all of which had hits on pop radio in the early 1980s but they were "safe" with a clean cut image and didn't really funk it up too much. While over on R&B radio, the only thing feminine over there was Prince. Everyone else was pretty much wearing matching costumes and space type outfits. Space was a big theme back then. Rick James had more of a freaky look more than a gay look, though I still think he secretly lusted for some of that pretty little Prince.

Actually, the gay look was going on much more heavily with white artists back then moreso than black artists. All those new wavers of the early 1980s had the makeup and wild hair and those metal hair bands looked like full fledged drag queens, especially Motley Crue.

.

.

.

[Edited 9/22/12 16:05pm]

vainandy said: I've seen Prince with his natural afro in the "For You" era and he looked really great with it. But the Prince of today with one doesn't look great at all. I guess it's from 30 years of seeing all the different hairstyles and flamboyant outfits that outrageous is what looks "natural" on Prince rather than a natural look itself. Your eyes become conditioned to it and it becomes what you're used to seeing. A natural looking Prince of today reminds me of when I would be out at the club and see someone I had never seen before and everyone would be like "Who is that?" and someone else would say..."Oh, that's Miss so and so out of drag"....It would be a well known drag queen that no one had ever seen out of drag and he actually looked more strange out of drag than he did in drag because he had dressed in drag for soooo long and had become soooo well known for it, that his own natural self was starting to look the part of the image he portrayed so when you saw him, you could still see parts of Miss (whoever) mixed in with what was supposed to be a natural looking man but instead ended up looking more like something inbetween the two. It's very hard to explain. OK, it's also kinda like someone who wears glasses all the time. I'm not talking about someone who wears glasses strictly for reading, I'm talking about someone who has to wear glasses ALL the time. If you ever see that person when they take their glasses off, their eyes look strange. They don't look the same way they did when you've seen them through the glasses. Or also like the old saying..."Those two have been married so long they're starting to look alike" which I've seen to be true with many couples. Prince has played the fish for sooooo long that no matter what he ever does to try to natural or butch up, it's going to look completely unnatural on him.

*

I hear, understand, and agree with much of what you are saying, and I think the issue is that we may have a slightly different definition or understanding of “natural.” Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think you mean “normal” and “aesthetically pleasant” when you say “natural,” and I mean “original biological state” when I say “natural.” So, I understand that when you say Prince looks more natural to you with straight hair, I think you mean that he looks “normal” and “aesthetically pleasant” with straightened hair. And, I will concede that the only issue I have with Prince’s ‘fro is how black it is. Because most men over fifty tend to have varying amounts of grey hair, Prince’s very black hair does seem unnatural—for color not for texture. And it would appear more “biologically natural” to his face if it contained at least some dashes of grey. But where I differ is that one of the interesting things about humans is that if we experience or endure the negative or reverse of normal for a certain amount of time, when we finally see the normal or biologically natural it will look wrong or abnormal or unnatural. So, like your person wearing the glasses analogy, Prince has worn a certain look for so long that now when people see him in his natural state it looks abnormal even though it is his natural state. And I think it is important to acknowledge this element of why people may find Prince wearing a ‘fro as unnatural as you do at the end of your paragraph, but I also think that it is important that we also are able to see the beauty in the biologically natural state of all people, especially African people. So, for some people, I can agree that they may just be blinded by what they have seen for so long as natural Prince, that they cannot fathom or imagine Prince with non-straightened hair, but I do think, based on some of the comments, that others are blind to the beauty of Prince’s natural state because they can only embrace a Eurocentric sense of beauty and that Prince wearing a ‘fro runs counter to or is an affront to their Eurocentric sensibilities.

*

vainandy said: But as for looks and style, this is America which is supposed to be multiracial and everything is supposed to be up for grabs by everybody, even though it hasn't been that way. If it looks good on you, wear it. If a black person looks good with straight hair, wear it. If a white person looks good with curly hair, wear it. No, straight hair doesn't look good on every black person no more than curly hair looks good on all white people. Prince looks great with straight hair but James Brown, especially his older years, and Bobby Rush look horrible with straight hair. Their hair looked like stiff unnatural wigs on top of their head while Prince's was more bushy and flowing almost like a woman's hair. James Brown looked much better with his natural hair and Bobby Rush, even though jheri curls have BEEN out of style, he still looks better with that curl than he did with that perm. Some people can just pull it off and others can't. I'm not talking in terms of race, I'm just talking in terms of what looks good on a particular shaped head and what doesn't. That's the queen in me coming out, we LOVE fashion.

*

The problem is that the rhetoric of the American multicultural melting pot has been mostly rhetoric and has rarely manifested itself in public policy and daily behavior. And, to be clear, my issue is not about people being free to do what they want, but in most cases the issue has been that African Americans, as you showed earlier, felt more of a need to embrace the Eurocentric aesthetic as a means of socio-economic survival and not just as an individualized fashion statement. As for James Brown and Bobby Rush, I agree on two fronts and disagree on one. Yes, their hair styles, especially late in their lives, were poorly executed. As an African American who permed his hair for ten years—all of my twenties—I was fortunate to have a girlfriend/wife who was a highly sought after hairstylist to teach me how to care for my hair and get the look I desired. However, as I got older, I realized that I could not continue to perm my hair, especially since one of my primary objectives as a writer is to address the issue of self-hatred in the African American community. With Brown and Rush, there is the issue of poor execution as well as them not doing a good job of contouring their hairstyle to fit their age. Most people lose their hair as they get older. Thus, they both could have done a better job of reflecting that in hairstyles. And, as you say with Rush, the Jheri Curl has been out of style for so long that it no longer looks normal to any one, so it will definitely not look natural to anyone.

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Where I disagree is that both Brown and Rush and many other African American men have a darker complexion with which most people do not associate with straightened hair. So, because Prince is lighter, and people are used to seeing light-skinned people with straight hair, Prince’s straightened hair looks more normal, which, then, gives the illusion of being natural. Whereas straightened hair on Brown and Rush, especially as they got older, never really looked normal because of their skin tone, which kept them from looking natural with straightened hair. And even though Rush was lighter than Brown, Rush’s very definite African American features, wide nose and full lips, also kept his straightened hair from looking normal or natural. (And, of course, there are people of color around the globe—Arabs, Native Americans, Hispanics, and Aboriginal Peoples—who have straight hair, but they have a different facial construct in most cases from African/Nubian people that is perceived as normal or natural to straight hair, though even this does not have a rigid dividing line in the sand.) So, I agree that some people can pull it off—fit the aesthetic norm, but where I disagree is that I think the ability to pull it off is as much related to how much or well one’s other physical attributes are similar to European traits. Thus, if one’s skin tone, nose, lips, jaw line, etc. are close to the Eurocentric sense of beauty, then their straightened hair will appear more normal, which will cause it to appear more natural. So, yes, it is a fashion thing, but even the notion of fashion is rooted in people’s cultural sensibilities and expectations, and I think that most people living in America and in Western countries have been indoctrinated to see the Eurocentric as the standard for normal beauty, which causes many to find Prince more aesthetically pleasing with straightened hair. Of course, as long as one’s enjoyment of Prince’s music isn’t mostly influenced by his physical look, then that person is truly open-minded and “free.” However, because Prince plays with both gender and race, the topic of how Prince’s appearance affects how people perceive his music is an entirely new Pandora’s Box.

excited said:

i don't think it's a blackness issue 4 prince, i just think he's impressed with andy allo's image.. it's like when people say a dog can look like it's owner, maybe she has spent so much time with prince that he's unconsiously taken inspiration from her style & transformed without realising

This is exactly what I thought. Prince does this with every woman he is with. And here we are raking over the socio-political implications of his hair. Prince is not losing any sleep over this and his hair will be straight, twisted, etc. next month. That's why I said that I just thought the afro was misshapen. It never even dawned on me that the afro made him look black. He already is black! And he's done all types of styles (including afros) throughout his career! That one on The View was just not one of his high-points.

I recognize that we live in a culturally divided world, but there are some people (even on the Org) who really just didn't like his hair on The View. We weren't trying to mask our intolerance of African-American culture or (for those of us who are Black) trying to mask self-hatred. We just didn't like his hair on The View!

Here's some pics showing Prince's tendency to "match" the women he's with. Actually, I don't know if he's matching them or if he's just creating a total packaged look. Now in the case with Andy, she already had her hair style before linking up to him. But I think like Excited pointed out, Prince was likely impressed with Andy's hair and wanted to match his with hers to create that packaged look:

The straight blow-out of the Lovesexy days

Long wavy locks with Mayte (he would also have their hair blown out on occasion).

A little curlier/wavier with Mani

A more polished look with Bria

And of course the afro with Andy (this one I like)

vainandy said:

2elijah said:

Apparently, the overly butch shit hoppers didn't get that memo because they're what have dominated the charts for almost 20 years. Although, most of them are a bunch of closet trade. I agree that in the 1980s, black male entertainers had to tone it down to get onto white radio but I wouldn't say they had to be feminine. They had to be "safe". There's nothing feminine about Lionel Richie, Smokey Robinson, The Four Tops, and Kool and The Gang, all of which had hits on pop radio in the early 1980s but they were "safe" with a clean cut image and didn't really funk it up too much. While over on R&B radio, the only thing feminine over there was Prince. Everyone else was pretty much wearing matching costumes and space type outfits. Space was a big theme back then. Rick James had more of a freaky look more than a gay look, though I still think he secretly lusted for some of that pretty little Prince.

Actually, the gay look was going on much more heavily with white artists back then moreso than black artists. All those new wavers of the early 1980s had the makeup and wild hair and those metal hair bands looked like full fledged drag queens, especially Motley Crue.

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[Edited 9/22/12 16:05pm]

lol as much as i love ur posts

i really dont believe in a 'gay' look

i think the only time in american history where by clothing someone could really standout as being gay looking was the 30s-50s lol

PurpleChi said:

excited said:

i don't think it's a blackness issue 4 prince, i just think he's impressed with andy allo's image.. it's like when people say a dog can look like it's owner, maybe she has spent so much time with prince that he's unconsiously taken inspiration from her style & transformed without realising

This is exactly what I thought. Prince does this with every woman he is with. And here we are raking over the socio-political implications of his hair. Prince is not losing any sleep over this and his hair will be straight, twisted, etc. next month. That's why I said that I just thought the afro was misshapen. It never even dawned on me that the afro made him look black. He already is black! And he's done all types of styles (including afros) throughout his career! That one on The View was just not one of his high-points.

I recognize that we live in a culturally divided world, but there are some people (even on the Org) who really just didn't like his hair on The View. We weren't trying to mask our intolerance of African-American culture or (for those of us who are Black) trying to mask self-hatred. We just didn't like his hair on The View!

Not to be adversarial, but the "matching Andy Allo's hair" theory seems to raise about three questions. One, Prince had a similar 'fro style early during the Musicology era, especially for the "Musicology" video. So, who was he trying to match then? Secondly, in the pictures provided to show that Prince was matching the women in the band, how do we not know that he hadn’t developed his look and then contoured them to match him? Additionally, it could be said that Prince seems to equate effeminacy with being spiritual/metaphysical and the more spiritual/metaphysical an album the more effeminate the look. So, again, it seems that Prince's look is dictated by his ideology, and then the band members are styled or contoured accordingly. Thirdly, yes, each individual has their own tastes and has a right to have their own tastes, but it would be disingenuous not to realize and acknowledge that individuals come from particular cultures that have particular views or perceptions of life that greatly influence the tastes and sensibilities of the individual. And, that is not to say that individuals raised in a particular culture cannot learn to be more inclusive of other cultural sensibilities and perceptions. So, not everyone raised in an Eurocentric or Afrocentric culture thinks that those are the only worthy and valuable sensibilities. However, many of the posts did seem to be driven by Eurocentric sensibilities regarding hair. Of course, I don't know what's in anyone's head and heart but mine so I can only evaluate the language. Further, the commonly used notion of "we just like what we like," to steal from a cereal commercial, is often a misnomer because tastes, likes, and dislikes are partly rooted in one’s culture of origin and partly influenced by how the individual exposes oneself to various cultures or limits one's exposure to various cultures either to find value in other cultural sensibilities or to dismiss or minimize or marginalize other cultural sensibilities. So, yes, a lot of people seemed not to like Princes hair on The View, but the question remains what are the factors that lead to the like or dislike of it. And judging from the language (tone and word choice coding), race or cultural sensibilities played a major factor--for some—in determining whether they liked his hair or not. I have found that when people say they like or don’t like something and don’t have a reason for liking or disliking it they are either being disingenuous or they actually have never taken the time for self-evaluation to realize what drives their aesthetic tastes. Yet, in either case, where race is concerned, naivety or ignorance (limited knowledge) can cause one to perpetuate white supremacy or self-hatred even if it isn’t their desire to do so.