artist76 said: Sounds interesting, and I totally get the whole intersection b/t science, art, religion. My daughter just took a class at Caltech this summer "The Art of Science" (she's 9 y.o.), and we've talked about how the early mathematicians (yes, Plato) were philosophers - all knowledge and education were connected, not compartmentalized. Compartmentalization of knowledge and learning was propelled by industrialism. She finds mathematics and science much more engrossing with this "new" (re-newed?) integrated approach.

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We’re on the same page here.

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artist76 said: You're kinda quoting me and Graycap, but it's only SuperSoulFighter who said you "made up your mind." My post says I don't understand your plan. You have since explained much better/ fuller and I understand better. Thanks.

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It really doesn’t make sense for me to split hairs (yet obviously I will anyway), but my response to you and Graycap, which should have also included SuperSoulFighter, was that I thought that I was asking a pretty straight-forward question about the existence of articles. While I get that you and Graycap did not say that I had made up my mind, both of your comments seemed to imply that I had taken the position that Prince’s decline was related to becoming a Jehovah’s Witness because you both began to suggest that I needed to consider other causes of his decline. And that point or suggestion didn’t make sense to me because I was not saying that Prince’s decline was based on him becoming a Jehovah’s witness but that I wanted to find published articles that would echo the sentiments of many of those on this site. If it was not you all’s point to imply that I had decided on a position, then I apologize for misinterpreting your points.

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artist76 said: As to Prince, I think it's only a handful of vociferous (and I'd say, illogical) fans on here who claim his work has suffered because of Larry Graham & JW

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While I disagree that “it’s only a handful of vociferous…fans,” I can’t dispute you because I have not kept track of the actual numbers. But if it is only a few who feel this way, man are they vociferous, enough so that they seem like the majority. I guess a few people really can make a difference :^).

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artist76 said: the casual lay fandom would say he's always been religious ("The Ladder," "The Cross," etc.),

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Our agreement or disagreement on this point will be based on how we define “casual lay” fan. I define the “casual lay” fan as someone who only listens to Prince’s songs that are regularly played on the radio or has only those albums that contain songs regularly played on the radio. So, I don’t know if those fans, as I have defined them, really heard/got the religious messages and connotations of Prince’s work. And I only say this because there are people on this site who consider themselves hardcore fans who completely marginalize, minimize, or ignore Prince’s early religious subjects and themes to concentrate more on his sexual subjects and themes. So I think that some hard-core fans (based on how we define them) may say that Prince has always been religious, but I’m not sure about the casual lay fan.

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artist76 said: so it'd be very difficult to say that his "decline" is now attributable to his faith.

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I agree, but, again, my goal is to research to see if there have been published articles that echo the opposite sentiment that is often asserted on this site and to use that research as a sub-point for a larger discussion. As you know, even if I think I know the answer to my hypothesis, I still must complete the experiment or research to affirm the answer. Thanks for the clarification and insight, and, again, I apologize for any misunderstanding.

1725topp said:

Bohemian67 said:

Is there not another artist you can find?

All reviews and analyses of art are, at some level, subjective. Even if the reviewer has criteria, that criteria will be mostly subjective. So any review of anybody's art, even reviews and analyses published in journals, will have a level of subjectivity.

True. But I think taking anything comparing it to fan views (a handful on the org) would not be credible.

Therefore, what will make it difficult to find articles that connect Prince's decline (commercial and artistic) to his becoming a Jehovah's Witness is that his commercial decline began years before he became a Jehovah's Witness so most writers of established or mainstream magazines will not connect the decline to his new faith.

Well that too is true, but which artist doesn't have a commercial decline after a few years of sensational ups? Also you could argue that it was precisely Prince's references and interest in 'religion' spirituality and the powers above that contributed to the incline in the beginning. So segregating 'religion' from the music incline/decline phase is unclear.

I am sure that I can use someone like Cat Stevens who converted to Islam and became Yusef Islam, but my interest is Prince. And, the thousands of threads and posts on this site clearly show that much of Prince's core audience feel that his becoming a Jehovah's Witness has negatively affected his artistic productivity. My job is to research whether or not published writers have made the connection, echoing the sentiment of many of his core fans. If I am unable to find published articles, it makes it difficult to argue that the so-call authorities have made this connection, but I can still show that much of his fan base has made this connection. And as a sub-point to my larger goal that allows me to continue my comparison of the scientist and the artist, especially when engaging an ontological discussion of the universe.

Surely, any published 'kosher' writings would infringe on the universal declaration of human rights if it touched on religion? i.e. 'Limitations to freedom of...llow the "harm principle" or the "offense principle", for example in the case of pornography, religious belief or hate speech.

1725topp said: All reviews and analyses of art are, at some level, subjective. Even if the reviewer has criteria, that criteria will be mostly subjective. So any review of anybody's art, even reviews and analyses published in journals, will have a level of subjectivity.

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Bohemian67 said: True. But I think taking anything comparing it to fan views (a handful on the org) would not be credible.

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Hence the reason why I am seeking published articles that may echo these sentiments. Have you not read that my goal is to find published articles that echo this sentiment and not to use just what has been posted here? In fact, I actually stated in an earlier post that the final element needed to get the essay published is published articles. So, I don’t understand your point about it not being credible to use fan posts when clearly that has never been my intention.

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Bohemian67 said: Well that too is true, but which artist doesn't have a commercial decline after a few years of sensational ups? Also you could argue that it was precisely Prince's references and interest in 'religion' spirituality and the powers above that contributed to the incline in the beginning. So segregating 'religion' from the music incline/decline phase is unclear.

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I don’t know how it would be unclear when so many people on this site have already taken that position. However, I think that you are confused that it is my position that Prince’s decline (artistic or commercial) is due to him becoming a Jehovah’s Witness, but this is not my position, which I have asserted in this thread. Yet, since so many have made this assertion on this site, I wanted to research it to see if this assertion has been made in published articles. And, again, as I have already stated, even when one has a good idea of the answer to one’s hypothesis, one must still engage in the research or experiment to affirm one’s notions. That is all that I am doing. Several people on this site have asserted that Prince’s decline (whether artistically or commercially) can be attributed to his becoming a Jehovah’s Witness, and I am researching to see if this assertion has been made in published articles.

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Bohemian67 said: Surely, any published 'kosher' writings would infringe on the universal declaration of human rights if it touched on religion? i.e. 'Limitations to freedom of speech may follow the "harm principle" or the "offense principle", for example in the case of pornography, religious belief or hate speech.

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I am not even sure if I understand what you mean. Whenever any artist takes a new direction or embraces a new ideology that governs or directs the artist's work, fans and critics respond by discussing how the new ideology affects the production of the art. For instance, when noted poet, playwright, and essayist LeRoi Jones converted to Islam and became Amiri Baraka, fans and literary critics spent years debating how his embracing of Islam affected his creativity, and these debates/discussions were published in several journals. The same happened with Cat Stevens, and it happened with Little Richard and Al Green when both transitioned from singing secular music to gospel. So I don’t know how a discussion of how an artist’s change in ideology “infringes on the universal declaration of human rights” or on that artist’s “freedom of speech.” No one is saying that Prince does not have a right to sing the type of songs that he desires, but many have commented that his new religion has lessened his creativity. While I disagree with that sentiment, I have an obligation as a writer/scholar to engage the research to see how valid that point is by seeing if it has been asserted in published articles, with the notion that this point or issue is a sub-topic in a larger discussion I am having about the similarity and correlation between the artist and the scientist.

1725topp said:

Bohemian67 said: True. But I think taking anything comparing it to fan views (a handful on the org) would not be credible.

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Hence the reason why I am seeking published articles that may echo these sentiments. Have you not read that my goal is to find published articles that echo this sentiment and not to use just what has been posted here?

I did read your goal but I just don't think that because fans have that sentiment that it means there is published material which runs along the same thread. If there had been, fans would have jumped on it, believe me.

I don’t know how it would be unclear when so many people on this site have already taken that position. However, I think that you are confused that it is my position that Prince’s decline (artistic or commercial) is due to him becoming a Jehovah’s Witness, but this is not my position, which I have asserted in this thread.

I read that your opinion that it is not what you believe.

Several people on this site have asserted that Prince’s decline (whether artistically or commercially) can be attributed to his becoming a Jehovah’s Witness, and I am researching to see if this assertion has been made in published articles.

I just don't think you are going to find any articles, as others have also suggested. And as so many on this site due think JW is the reason for decline, they of all people would have had these articles ready in an instant if they were out there. Don't want to dampen your enthusiasm though!

Bohemian67 said: Surely, any published 'kosher' writings would infringe on the universal declaration of human rights if it touched on religion? i.e. 'Limitations to freedom of speech may follow the "harm principle" or the "offense principle", for example in the case of pornography, religious belief or hate speech.

I am not even sure if I understand what you mean. Whenever any artist takes a new direction or embraces a new ideology that governs or directs the artist's work, fans and critics respond by discussing how the new ideology affects the production of the art. For instance, when noted poet, playwright, and essayist LeRoi Jones converted to Islam and became Amiri Baraka, fans and literary critics spent years debating how his embracing of Islam affected his creativity.

Debating is surely very different to publishing an article, offending a religion for the reason of a decline. We do that here all the time.

So I don’t know how a discussion of how an artist’s change in ideology “infringes on the universal declaration of human rights” or on that artist’s “freedom of speech.”

Not on the artist's freedom on speech but a reputable writer/organisation that explicitly offends a religion for the purpose of critiquing an artist.

No one is saying that Prince does not have a right to sing the type of songs that he desires, but many have commented that his new religion has lessened his creativity. While I disagree with that sentiment, I have an obligation as a writer/scholar to engage the research to see how valid that point is by seeing if it has been asserted in published articles, with the notion that this point or issue is a sub-topic in a larger discussion I am having about the similarity and correlation between the artist and the scientist.

Yes, that I know. But are there published articles of credible source available other than 'discussion' on any of the other artists that you mention available? If so, you might have a chance of finding something. But if not, then I would think you won't find any on Prince.

Keep us updated on your interesting topic!

artist76 said:

I am not understanding how you plan to use Prince as an example in an article about Einstein and Newton. Einstein and Newton were scientists; Prince is as musician, an artist. Whether his creations are "in decline" or not is a matter of taste, aesthetics. Whether scientists are clouded in their profession by religious faith, now that I can see as a legitimate debate. Their profession is about uncovering how the physical universe operates and why, which may clash with official religious teachings. An artist's profession is to, well, make art that hopefully pleases some people. Many highly regarded artists were religious, and created religious art that inspires and pleases. It would be pretty impossible (or ridiculous, as databank said) to link the artist's "religiousness" with his/her success or decline in the endeavor of art. At most, you may find articles that note that Prince music is less explicit and salacious since JW.

An excellent point.

Darn org!!

[Edited 9/6/12 13:22pm]

paintedlady said:

Graycap23 said:

New and daring or boring, forced, lazy and just plain lacking in imagination?

Well... Prince isn't shocking us anymore like he used to. We can not expect Prince to shock us well after 30+ years now can we?

So we heard/saw what Prince is about and his shock value has faded.... onto the next artist to "shock" us and make us pay attention.

Its not a reflection on Prince so much as it is a reflection of the high demand listeners want.

Interesting points Graycap23 and paintedlady, but I have always thought that one of Prince's biggest muses was sex. His new religion practices seems to have stifled that out put. But, it does appear on Elixer and Turn me Loose (which why it may never got released?).

I have no problem with Prince's stand on the not swearing part, but not allowed to be suggestive is just plain boring (not that he doesn't do it from time to time.).Prince is strongest doing relationship songs (with a lady/God/friend), but Prince doesn't do relationship songs like he used to-that is a big disconnect with his audience and potential audience.

Even with some uneven albums in the last few years, Prince still deliveries better albums than Paul McCartney and the Stones put out in the later years. (before you jump on me-that is IMO!)

kewlschool said:

paintedlady said:

Well... Prince isn't shocking us anymore like he used to. We can not expect Prince to shock us well after 30+ years now can we?

So we heard/saw what Prince is about and his shock value has faded.... onto the next artist to "shock" us and make us pay attention.

Its not a reflection on Prince so much as it is a reflection of the high demand listeners want.

Interesting points Graycap23 and paintedlady, but I have always thought that one of Prince's biggest muses was sex. His new religion practices seems to have stifled that out put. But, it does appear on Elixer and Turn me Loose (which why it may never got released?).

I have no problem with Prince's stand on the not swearing part, but not allowed to be suggestive is just plain boring (not that he doesn't do it from time to time.).Prince is strongest doing relationship songs (with a lady/God/friend), but Prince doesn't do relationship songs like he used to-that is a big disconnect with his audience and potential audience.

Even with some uneven albums in the last few years, Prince still deliveries better albums than Paul McCartney and the Stones put out in the later years. (before you jump on me-that is IMO!)

I'm still a big supported of Prince's musical work but I find his self imposed constraints a bit much. That said...............it is his journey and it is what it is.

Cool thread.

What about the opposite idea though? Most fans would agree that the last great album was TRC, and it is regularly ranked up there with the best, and this album is directly influenced by his JW faith.

NouveauDance said:

Cool thread.

What about the opposite idea though? Most fans would agree that the last great album was TRC, and it is regularly ranked up there with the best, and this album is directly influenced by his JW faith.

Great point.

This is why I think its more us (his fans) than him. TRC was different and new... Prince crossed lines and proclaimed his spirituality.

This is not the same as "going gospel"... I think if religion was truly limiting Prince he would of went down the same road as Stephanie Mills, Denise Williams, etc... and disappear into the horizon of the gospel circuit.

I agree with Kewlschool's opinion... Prince's image/persona relies heavily on his sex appeal. I think he can be sexy and holy. The trick is not coming off like a total hypocrit since he is a practicing JW. So I do not see him being limited as much as being challenged in his creativity to come up with new sounds without looking like a manwhore.

IMO Prince was never the best lyricist (even though he is my favorite artist), but his unique sound killed me and kept me wanting more. I had a thirst for his sound, I craved it since there was nothing else like it on the radio.

Now I do not crave his sound anymore. My dancing style has changed since I was a tween, and even though I like the grooves he comes up with.... its like I heard them all before. The music doesn't grab me like it used to. Seeing him live is an entirely different matter though. I guess I may just be getting old and my tastes have changed... his music is still good but why are my cd's just dust collectors now?

NouveauDance said:

Cool thread.

What about the opposite idea though? Most fans would agree that the last great album was TRC, and it is regularly ranked up there with the best, and this album is directly influenced by his JW faith.

I would agree that TRC is his best out put in the last 12 years, but it's lyrical content is off putting and narrowing in thought, which for me is a turn off. I actual prefer the live version of TRC for some reason. To me the TRC seems to have a lot effort in it's formation, other later albums not so much.

Maybe inspiration or lack of a muse is the real problem for the inconstancy? Or is it about the art of music and not the art of hit making. Just look at Emancipation, if Prince would have been on WB it would have most likely been a two disc CD meaning it may have sold more that way, but the art of music would be secondary. This 2 disc could arguable be stronger set than a 3 disc set-but maybe that's not what Prince's music is suppose to be about?

Genesia said:

artist76 said:

I am not understanding how you plan to use Prince as an example in an article about Einstein and Newton. Einstein and Newton were scientists; Prince is as musician, an artist. Whether his creations are "in decline" or not is a matter of taste, aesthetics. Whether scientists are clouded in their profession by religious faith, now that I can see as a legitimate debate. Their profession is about uncovering how the physical universe operates and why, which may clash with official religious teachings. An artist's profession is to, well, make art that hopefully pleases some people. Many highly regarded artists were religious, and created religious art that inspires and pleases. It would be pretty impossible (or ridiculous, as databank said) to link the artist's "religiousness" with his/her success or decline in the endeavor of art. At most, you may find articles that note that Prince music is less explicit and salacious since JW.

An excellent point.

Was it an excellent point when I clarified my position, causing artist76 to agree with me, stating "Sounds interesting, and I totally get the whole intersection b/t science, art, religion. My daughter just took a class at Caltech this summer "The Art of Science" (she's 9 y.o.), and we've talked about how the early mathematicians (yes, Plato) were philosophers - all knowledge and education were connected, not compartmentalized. Compartmentalization of knowledge and learning was propelled by industrialism. She finds mathematics and science much more engrossing with this "new" (re-newed?) integrated approach”?

Bohemian67 said: I did read your goal but I just don't think that because fans have that sentiment that it means there is published material which runs along the same thread. If there had been, fans would have jumped on it, believe me.

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So, then, if this is your main point, which I appreciate for its candor and insight, this is all you needed to say as your other points do not really apply to my question, and you could have just stated the above or that you don’t think there are any published articles that present that sentiment. I guess my lingering question is how does a straight-forward yes or no question evolve into something other than a yes or no answer? All I asked was if anyone knew of any articles that connected Prince’s decline to his becoming a Jehovah’s Witness. The answer is either yes or no. Just because there is a greater probability for one answer does not mean that one mustn’t ask the question.

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Bohemian67 said: Don't want to dampen your enthusiasm though!

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Again, I appreciate any insight, but since writing and research is what I do for a living it would be impossible to dampen my enthusiasm. Speaking empirically, as I stated, even if we know the answer to a hypothesis we still must engage or complete the research or experiment. Besides, even the most knowledgeable Prince fans can be told something that they did not already know.

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Bohemian67 said: offending a religion for the reason of a decline. We do that here all the time… but a reputable writer/organisation that explicitly offends a religion for the purpose of critiquing an artist.

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Even though I disagree with the sentiment that Prince becoming a Jehovah’s Witness negatively affected his creativity, I don’t see how someone making that statement is offending his religion. They may be making a myopic statement, but not all myopic statements are offensive.

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Bohemian67 said: But are there published articles of credible source available other than 'discussion' on any of the other artists that you mention available?

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Yes, that’s what I said. There are several published articles in major literary journals where writers explore the effect that converting to Islam had on LeRoi Jones/Amiri Baraka. And, yes, there are published articles of writers discussing how converting to Islam effected Cat Stevens work as well as articles discussing how religious conflict affected the work of Little Richard and Al Green. So to expect that writers would do the same for Prince is not unreasonable. However, as I said, because Prince’s commercial decline was years before his becoming a Jehovah’s Witness, many music critics who had written Prince off years ago and are now focusing on other kinds of music may not be interested in Prince enough to gauge the topic.

NouveauDance said:

Cool thread.

What about the opposite idea though? Most fans would agree that the last great album was TRC, and it is regularly ranked up there with the best, and this album is directly influenced by his JW faith.

I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly, but in my research and lectures on the similarity between the scientist and the artist, the criticism that Einstein and Newton endured for engaging religion and the ontological nature of the universe is so similar to some of the things that Prince's hard-core fans have said about his becoming a Jehovah's Witness that I was like, "Wow, let me see if I can find some published articles that have this same sentiment so that I can use this similarity as another point to compare and discuss the scientist and the artist in their quest to become philosophers or to make significant comment about the world in which they live.

paintedlady said:

Prince always wrote lyrics about God and spirituality. Prince IMO always had faith in a higher power, so he always sought out some sort of religous understanding of an afterlife his entire career.

Now Prince is in a more rigorous religion that seems more dogmatic than others, but the soul searching always remains the same.

Prince was always about religion, sex, and music. It set him apart from the other funk acts because his lyrics caused controversy. It made people pay attention and want more. He became famous because of his views and his sound. It was all new... and interesting, until it wasn't.

He still makes the same good music, about God, religion, and sex... its just that we are not interested anymore since it isn't "new" and "daring" to us.

Prince has remained the same... we changed.

Pretty much. A better comparison would be Dylan and his flirtations with Christianity in his music, which led to a massive drop in his popularity for a time. It's true that Prince has gotten deeper about his spiritual messages in his music.

Timmy84 said:

paintedlady said:

Prince always wrote lyrics about God and spirituality. Prince IMO always had faith in a higher power, so he always sought out some sort of religous understanding of an afterlife his entire career.

Now Prince is in a more rigorous religion that seems more dogmatic than others, but the soul searching always remains the same.

Prince was always about religion, sex, and music. It set him apart from the other funk acts because his lyrics caused controversy. It made people pay attention and want more. He became famous because of his views and his sound. It was all new... and interesting, until it wasn't.

He still makes the same good music, about God, religion, and sex... its just that we are not interested anymore since it isn't "new" and "daring" to us.

Prince has remained the same... we changed.

Pretty much. A better comparison would be Dylan and his flirtations with Christianity in his music, which led to a massive drop in his popularity for a time. It's true that Prince has gotten deeper about his spiritual messages in his music.

While I agree with almost all of what paintedlady said, clearly a good number of Prince fans are disappointed or feel betrayed that Prince has moved to a stricter adherence to Christian principles. Of course, I have stated for years that if one could not at least fathom or see the possibility of The Rainbow Children coming, then one really wasn't listening to what Prince was saying in his attempt to navigate and merge his carnal desires with his spiritual desires. So while the casual fans and music critics had lost commercial interest in Prince by the time he became a Jehovah's Witness, his conversion or transition to a stricter adherence of Christian principles has caused a good number of his hard-core fans to question Prince's level of creativity or to assert that his creativity has been lessened or compromised by becoming a Jehovah’s Witness. So while Dylan's circumstance is a good example, I don't know if it is necessarily better, given how appalled so many of Prince's hard-core fans are at his becoming a Jehovah's Witness and what they see as its negative effect on him.

1725topp said:

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So, then, if this is your main point, which I appreciate for its candor and insight, this is all you needed to say as your other points do not really apply to my question, and you could have just stated the above or that you don’t think there are any published articles that present that sentiment.

Well excuse me 1725topp for having answered a thread in the way I wished to.

I guess my lingering question is how does a straight-forward yes or no question evolve into something other than a yes or no answer? All I asked was if anyone knew of any articles that connected Prince’s decline to his becoming a Jehovah’s Witness. The answer is either yes or no. Just because there is a greater probability for one answer does not mean that one mustn’t ask the question.*

If I understand you correctly, you desired a vote like answer. Yes X or No X . I'll remember for next time 1755topp.

Yes, that’s what I said. There are several published articles in major literary journals where writers explore the effect that converting to Islam had on LeRoi Jones/Amiri Baraka. And, yes, there are published articles of writers discussing how converting to Islam effected Cat Stevens work as well as articles discussing how religious conflict affected the work of Little Richard and Al Green. So to expect that writers would do the same for Prince is not unreasonable. However, as I said, because Prince’s commercial decline was years before his becoming a Jehovah’s Witness, many music critics who had written Prince off years ago and are now focusing on other kinds of music may not be interested in Prince enough to gauge the topic.

You said you've published before so I got the idea that you would have direct access and knowledge to find what you're looking for. I therefore found it strange that you would ask the org fans for help to find something you as an expert couldn't find yourself.

Bohemian67 said: Well excuse me 1725topp for having answered a thread in the way I wished to.

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An answer to a question does not equate to an effective answer if the answer does not actually address the question.

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Bohemian67 said: If I understand you correctly, you desired a vote like answer. Yes X or No X . I'll remember for next time 1755topp.

*

Yes and no is not a “vote like answer,” but rather they are appropriate answers when a question is designed to obtain either a yes or a no. Either, yes, you have read this type of article, or no you have not. Why is that so difficult to understand, and why is it offensive if I expect a yes or no answer to a question that is designed to receive a yes or no answer?

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Bohemian67 said: You said you've published before so I got the idea that you would have direct access and knowledge to find what you're looking for. I therefore found it strange that you would ask the org fans for help to find something you as an expert couldn't find yourself.

*

First, I don’t have a negative perception of the members of this site. I have high regard for the intellect of several of the people on this site, even some of those with whom I have a differing perception of life. So, it is not beneath me to ask for assistance from members of the org when there are so many people on this site who are quite knowledgeable in various aspects of Prince’s work. Secondly, to have written and published widely, which I have, having been published in over 200 journals (poetry, fiction, literary theory), I understand that there are always sources that exist about which I may not know. Unlike you, as it appears with the above statement, I don’t think that I know everything, and, again, my ego isn’t too big to ask for assistance.

I didn't realise that you were so busy that you used Prince org as a work site.

You're obviously up for 'fighting' for someone who just answered your thread.

But it is the sign of good manners to listen to bad manners patiently.

Have a good evening 175topp. No one was questioning the intelligence of anyone on the org. Every post you throw in some new respite. I take it you can't find your article.

1725topp said:

Timmy84 said:

Pretty much. A better comparison would be Dylan and his flirtations with Christianity in his music, which led to a massive drop in his popularity for a time. It's true that Prince has gotten deeper about his spiritual messages in his music.

While I agree with almost all of what paintedlady said, clearly a good number of Prince fans are disappointed or feel betrayed that Prince has moved to a stricter adherence to Christian principles. Of course, I have stated for years that if one could not at least fathom or see the possibility of The Rainbow Children coming, then one really wasn't listening to what Prince was saying in his attempt to navigate and merge his carnal desires with his spiritual desires. So while the casual fans and music critics had lost commercial interest in Prince by the time he became a Jehovah's Witness, his conversion or transition to a stricter adherence of Christian principles has caused a good number of his hard-core fans to question Prince's level of creativity or to assert that his creativity has been lessened or compromised by becoming a Jehovah’s Witness. So while Dylan's circumstance is a good example, I don't know if it is necessarily better, given how appalled so many of Prince's hard-core fans are at his becoming a Jehovah's Witness and what they see as its negative effect on him.

In reference to the bolded/highlighted part. I agree with that portion of your post. It seems many fans haven't easily adapted to the JW Prince, especially manyhard-core fans. Seems as he matured as a musician/artist and adult through his music career, and decided to follow a stricter, different religious path in his life, as you stated, some fans feel that has affected or interfered with the creativity in his music, (i.e., his decision to omit the swearing, and sexually suggestive/explicit lyrics in his music, and the toned-down, once sexually-suggestive, body movements during his performances on stage), but the thing is, from early on in his music career, he injected religion/spiritual beliefs in his music, by referencing God or a higher, spiritual power in many of his songs. So the question is, how can some fans use his choice of religion as an excuse for what they claim, is his lack of creativity since he became a JW, when spirituality/religion was always one of the driving and creative forces behind his lyrics/music, even in contrast, to some of his sexually-explicit songs, that were/are inclusive of his spiritual/religious thoughts/beliefs? The only thing Prince omitted in his music, is the swearing, less sexually suggestive/explicit lyrics, and toned-down his sexually-suggestive body movements during his stage performances, but he never hid it from his fans, prior to becoming a JW, that he had religious beliefs or believed in a higher/spiritual force.

Often times, I find that many fans tend to create their own images, delusions/fantasies and over-the-top expectations of their favorite musicians/artists/celebs, by not only, disrespecting those musicians/artists' 'personal' life decisions, but somehow holding some false belief that they have a special or final say in a musician/artist/celeb's personal life choices off stage.

At the end of the day, when the stage lights turn off, some fans need to learn how to separate 'fantasy' from 'reality'.

[Edited 9/7/12 13:27pm]

2elijah said:

In reference to the bolded/highlighted part. I agree with that portion of your post. It seems many fans haven't easily adapted to the JW Prince, especially manyhard-core fans. Seems as he matured as a musician/artist and adult through his music career, and decided to follow a stricter, different religious path in his life, as you stated, some fans feel that has affected or interfered with the creativity in his music, (i.e., his decision to omit the swearing, and sexually suggestive/explicit lyrics in his music, and the toned-down, once sexually-suggestive, body movements during his performances on stage), but the thing is, from early on in his music career, he injected religion/spiritual beliefs in his music, by referencing God or a higher, spiritual power in many of his songs. So the question is, how can some fans use his choice of religion as an excuse for what they claim, is his lack of creativity since he became a JW, when spirituality/religion was always one of the driving and creative forces behind his lyrics/music, even in contrast, to some of his sexually-explicit songs, that were/are inclusive of his spiritual/religious thoughts/beliefs? The only thing Prince omitted in his music, is the swearing, less sexually suggestive/explicit lyrics, and toned-down his sexually-suggestive body movements during his stage performances, but he never hid it from his fans, prior to becoming a JW, that he had religious beliefs or believed in a higher/spiritual force.

Often times, I find that many fans tend to create their own images, delusions/fantasies and over-the-top expectations of their favorite musicians/artists/celebs, by not only, disrespecting those musicians/artists' 'personal' life decisions, but somehow holding some false belief that they have a special or final say in a musician/artist/celeb's personal life choices off stage.

At the end of the day, when the stage lights turn off, some fans need to learn how to separate 'fantasy' from 'reality'.

You will get very little argument from me with anything you've stated. And, I guess the only thing that puzzles me about some fan's more angry or bitter reaction to no longer liking Prince's music or no longer agreeing with his philosophy of life, whatever it may be, is that Prince, from day one, presented himself as an artist that would go his own way or do his own thing, even if it meant being less popular or losing fans. As a teenager, it was clear to me that, while I liked Around the World in a Day, there would be a great possibility in the future that I wouldn't like what he produced simply because he always seemed more concerned about his tastes and desires than taking the seemingly good advice from managers, band mates, friends, and fans as to what he would release. So while I still enjoy the vast majority of his work, I also understand that there is a great possibility that his next album may not fit my taste, but my reaction will simply be, "Oh well, it was a nice run for me." I understand and find it reasonable that there will be some who have not liked Prince's work since (pick a year), but I just don't understand why some of them seem so angry or bitter about it.

Bohemian67 said: I didn't realise that you were so busy that you used Prince org as a work site.

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This sentiment/question has been presented twice by you, and I have answered it twice. Don’t try to be sarcastic or just out-right mocking and then assert that I’m looking for a fight when I answer your question.

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Bohemian67 said: I take it you can't find your article

*

Including the one someone on this site suggested, I have five with the others coming from Entertainment Weekly, E-online, Spin Cycle, and The A V Club, and each of these four directly connect what they see as the failure of the album to the religion. However, my research also reminded me how many publications gave The Rainbow Children a positive rating. So far, my research is going just fine. Thanks for asking.

1725topp said:

2elijah said:

In reference to the bolded/highlighted part. I agree with that portion of your post. It seems many fans haven't easily adapted to the JW Prince, especially manyhard-core fans. Seems as he matured as a musician/artist and adult through his music career, and decided to follow a stricter, different religious path in his life, as you stated, some fans feel that has affected or interfered with the creativity in his music, (i.e., his decision to omit the swearing, and sexually suggestive/explicit lyrics in his music, and the toned-down, once sexually-suggestive, body movements during his performances on stage), but the thing is, from early on in his music career, he injected religion/spiritual beliefs in his music, by referencing God or a higher, spiritual power in many of his songs. So the question is, how can some fans use his choice of religion as an excuse for what they claim, is his lack of creativity since he became a JW, when spirituality/religion was always one of the driving and creative forces behind his lyrics/music, even in contrast, to some of his sexually-explicit songs, that were/are inclusive of his spiritual/religious thoughts/beliefs? The only thing Prince omitted in his music, is the swearing, less sexually suggestive/explicit lyrics, and toned-down his sexually-suggestive body movements during his stage performances, but he never hid it from his fans, prior to becoming a JW, that he had religious beliefs or believed in a higher/spiritual force.

Often times, I find that many fans tend to create their own images, delusions/fantasies and over-the-top expectations of their favorite musicians/artists/celebs, by not only, disrespecting those musicians/artists' 'personal' life decisions, but somehow holding some false belief that they have a special or final say in a musician/artist/celeb's personal life choices off stage.

At the end of the day, when the stage lights turn off, some fans need to learn how to separate 'fantasy' from 'reality'.

You will get very little argument from me with anything you've stated. And, I guess the only thing that puzzles me about some fan's more angry or bitter reaction to no longer liking Prince's music or no longer agreeing with his philosophy of life, whatever it may be, is that Prince, from day one, presented himself as an artist that would go his own way or do his own thing, even if it meant being less popular or losing fans. As a teenager, it was clear to me that, while I liked Around the World in a Day, there would be a great possibility in the future that I wouldn't like what he produced simply because he always seemed more concerned about his tastes and desires than taking the seemingly good advice from managers, band mates, friends, and fans as to what he would release. So while I still enjoy the vast majority of his work, I also understand that there is a great possibility that his next album may not fit my taste, but my reaction will simply be, "Oh well, it was a nice run for me." I understand and find it reasonable that there will be some who have not liked Prince's work since (pick a year), but I just don't understand why some of them seem so angry or bitter about it.

Exactly, not every fan will like all the music of their favorite musician/artists, but because it's not something of their taste, doesn't mean there is 'finality' of some sort to that musician's career or musical journey, nor does it makes sense to bash a musician who chooses to make some personal/spiritual changes in their lives, deserve to be bashed for it. Donna Summer (RIP), Al Green, as well as, other artists embraced religion which brought changes to in their music careers, as well as what music styles they chose to embrace;

On your second comment, about not understanding why some fans are angry and bitter of Prince's work, especially since becoming a JW, and choosing to no longer express and communicate the message in his songs, through swearing/sexually-explicit lyrics, well...question could be asked, "What did the swearing/sexually-explicit lyrics, provide for those fans angry/bitter that he no longer uses it or changes the words, if he sings those songs today?"

Could it be because some fans feel/felt he abandoned the fantasies/image they created of him for themselves, through the swearing/sexually-explicit lyrics in his songs, which they became dependent upon, like a drug that fulfilled a void in the reality of their own lives? Could the swearing/sexually-explicit language in his songs, may have been the 'cigarette after good sex' medicine that fulfilled their sexual fantasies? Who knows? But I do agree, that some of the anger/bitterness/disrespect/online tantrumgasms, from some of his fan base, not all of course, makes absolutely no sense, just because their favorite musician/artist made a personal, spiritual decision in his life, that some fans feel may be responsible for robbing them of their pre-JW Prince. Let's face it, at the end of the day, one can say, that Prince is the only one who owns the ingredients that makes him 'Prince'.

'sentence edit'

[Edited 9/7/12 17:39pm]

2elijah said:

Exactly, not every fan will like all the music of their favorite musician/artists, but because it's not something of their taste, doesn't mean there is 'finality' of some sort to that musician's career or musical journey, nor does it makes sense to bash a musician who chooses to make some personal/spiritual changes in their lives, deserve to be bashed for it. Donna Summer (RIP), Al Green, as well as, other artists embraced religion which brought changes to in their music careers, as well as what music styles they chose to embrace;

On your second comment, about not understanding why some fans are angry and bitter of Prince's work, especially since becoming a JW, and choosing to no longer express and communicate the message in his songs, through swearing/sexually-explicit lyrics, well...question could be asked, "What did the swearing/sexually-explicit lyrics, provide for those fans angry/bitter that he no longer uses it or changes the words, if he sings those songs today?"

Could it be because some fans feel/felt he abandoned the fantasies/image they created of him for themselves, through the swearing/sexually-explicit lyrics in his songs, which they became dependent upon, like a drug that fulfilled a void in the reality of their own lives? Could the swearing/sexually-explicit language in his songs, may have been the 'cigarette after good sex' medicine that fulfilled their sexual fantasies? Who knows? But I do agree, that some of the anger/bitterness/disrespect/online tantrumgasms, from some of his fan base, not all of course, makes absolutely no sense, just because their favorite musician/artist made a personal, spiritual decision in his life, that some fans feel may be responsible for robbing them of their pre-JW Prince. Let's face it, at the end of the day, one can say, that Prince is the only one who owns the ingredients that makes him 'Prince'.

I agree and really like your last sentence.

1725topp said:

Bohemian67 said: I didn't realise that you were so busy that you used Prince org as a work site.

*

This sentiment/question has been presented twice by you, and I have answered it twice. Don’t try to be sarcastic or just out-right mocking and then assert that I’m looking for a fight when I answer your question.

*

Bohemian67 said: I take it you can't find your article

*

Including the one someone on this site suggested, I have five with the others coming from Entertainment Weekly, E-online, Spin Cycle, and The A V Club, and each of these four directly connect what they see as the failure of the album to the religion. However, my research also reminded me how many publications gave The Rainbow Children a positive rating. So far, my research is going just fine. Thanks for asking.

*

Projection doesn't become you. Your second or third posts mocked readers as being erroneous/with poor assumptions, so who's mocking or sarcastic?

*

You could have just shared a quote or two from the article's from the beginning, in open question form instead of demanding a desired yes/no closed response. See your earlier post.

We might agree on the subject matter but I don't agree with your people skills, so I'll leave your thread alone.

Bohemian67 said: Projection doesn't become you. Your second or third posts mocked readers as being erroneous/with poor assumptions, so who's mocking or sarcastic?

*

To tell someone that an answer does not address the subject of the question is not mocking. Further, to inform someone that their assumptions of what you are doing are wrong, that also is not mocking. So, now, it seems that you are just grasping at straws to justify your anger at me for stating that your initial response to my question didn’t quite address my question. The very first response to my thread by Databank is effective because it simply states that there may be some articles making the connection but not many because he sees it as a ridiculous assertion. Because Databank’s response simply addressed the probability of the existence of articles making this connection, I only needed to thank him for his response. On the other hand, the initial responses from Artist76, SuperSoulFight, and Graycap23 seemed to go further and infer that I had already made up my mind and, additionally, Artist76’s initial post also raised the question of me connecting Prince to Einstein and Newton; yet, Artist76 did also answer the question by stating that he didn’t think that I would find articles making the connection. So, my response to them was simply to say that I hadn’t made up my mind about the research, that I do not attribute Prince’s decline to his becoming a Jehovah’s Witness, and to clarify why I was comparing Prince to Einstein and Newton. And while I think that the latter was unnecessary to explain based on the answers I needed (though I am glad that I did because it provided for interesting commentary and ideas from Artist76), I was not mocking them nor being sarcastic as you have done since I stated that most of your response to my question did not address the topic of my question.

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Bohemian67 said: You could have just shared a quote or two from the article's from the beginning, in open question form instead of demanding a desired yes/no closed response. See your earlier post. We might agree on the subject matter but I don't agree with your people skills, so I'll leave your thread alone.

*

When two people disagree, it is best to part ways in love. However, it does baffle me that you are having such a difficult time understanding that there are certain questions that require only a yes or a no answer. Now, I don't mind people sharing their insight, even going so far as to suggest that I look at the subject from a different perspective, but they should at least answer the question. That is what I would consider effective "people skills," and I do not mean this sarcastically.

1725topp said:

2elijah said:

Exactly, not every fan will like all the music of their favorite musician/artists, but because it's not something of their taste, doesn't mean there is 'finality' of some sort to that musician's career or musical journey, nor does it makes sense to bash a musician who chooses to make some personal/spiritual changes in their lives, deserve to be bashed for it. Donna Summer (RIP), Al Green, as well as, other artists embraced religion which brought changes to in their music careers, as well as what music styles they chose to embrace;

On your second comment, about not understanding why some fans are angry and bitter of Prince's work, especially since becoming a JW, and choosing to no longer express and communicate the message in his songs, through swearing/sexually-explicit lyrics, well...question could be asked, "What did the swearing/sexually-explicit lyrics, provide for those fans angry/bitter that he no longer uses it or changes the words, if he sings those songs today?"

Could it be because some fans feel/felt he abandoned the fantasies/image they created of him for themselves, through the swearing/sexually-explicit lyrics in his songs, which they became dependent upon, like a drug that fulfilled a void in the reality of their own lives? Could the swearing/sexually-explicit language in his songs, may have been the 'cigarette after good sex' medicine that fulfilled their sexual fantasies? Who knows? But I do agree, that some of the anger/bitterness/disrespect/online tantrumgasms, from some of his fan base, not all of course, makes absolutely no sense, just because their favorite musician/artist made a personal, spiritual decision in his life, that some fans feel may be responsible for robbing them of their pre-JW Prince. Let's face it, at the end of the day, one can say, that Prince is the only one who owns the ingredients that makes him 'Prince'.

I agree and really like your last sentence.

Thanks, but it doesn't go without saying that I always find your posts extremely interesting, in-depth, and leads to good dialogue.

1725topp said:

You will get very little argument from me with anything you've stated. And, I guess the only thing that puzzles me about some fan's more angry or bitter reaction to no longer liking Prince's music or no longer agreeing with his philosophy of life, whatever it may be, is that Prince, from day one, presented himself as an artist that would go his own way or do his own thing, even if it meant being less popular or losing fans. As a teenager, it was clear to me that, while I liked Around the World in a Day, there would be a great possibility in the future that I wouldn't like what he produced simply because he always seemed more concerned about his tastes and desires than taking the seemingly good advice from managers, band mates, friends, and fans as to what he would release. So while I still enjoy the vast majority of his work, I also understand that there is a great possibility that his next album may not fit my taste, but my reaction will simply be, "Oh well, it was a nice run for me." I understand and find it reasonable that there will be some who have not liked Prince's work since (pick a year), but I just don't understand why some of them seem so angry or bitter about it.

And still he follows trends at times. After rap blew up he infused rap into his music. During the grunge era we got Chaos and Disorder.

1725topp said:

While I agree with almost all of what paintedlady said, clearly a good number of Prince fans are disappointed or feel betrayed that Prince has moved to a stricter adherence to Christian principles. Of course, I have stated for years that if one could not at least fathom or see the possibility of The Rainbow Children coming, then one really wasn't listening to what Prince was saying in his attempt to navigate and merge his carnal desires with his spiritual desires. So while the casual fans and music critics had lost commercial interest in Prince by the time he became a Jehovah's Witness, his conversion or transition to a stricter adherence of Christian principles has caused a good number of his hard-core fans to question Prince's level of creativity or to assert that his creativity has been lessened or compromised by becoming a Jehovah’s Witness. So while Dylan's circumstance is a good example, I don't know if it is necessarily better, given how appalled so many of Prince's hard-core fans are at his becoming a Jehovah's Witness and what they see as its negative effect on him.

Many of his fans are agnostic, athiest etc. Was his early work more Christian or just Spiritual? Worlds of difference between Spiritual Christians and Social Christians.

SuperFurryAnimal said: And still he follows trends at times. After rap blew up he infused rap into his music. During the grunge era we got Chaos and Disorder.

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Sure, Prince, like all artists, is influenced by past and current trends and changes. But as his first manager Owen Husney once said, part of Prince’s genius “is his ability to take what’s in someone else’s mind and take it to the next level or give it his own spin”. Even with Prince’s adding of rap, especially his own rapping, which is not that good, he was focusing more on the attitude and musicality of rap than, say, the actual craft of wordplay, though I do think that Prince has a few funny and insightful lines while rapping, even if they are few and far between. I guess I can see some similarity between grunge and what’s on Chaos and Disorder, especially since we know that Prince is competitive from way back, “I'm not saying I'm better than anybody else. But you'll be sitting there at the Grammys, and U2 will beat you. And you say to yourself, 'Wait a minute. I can play that kind of music, too. I played La Crosse [Wisconsin] growing up, I know how to do that, you dig? But you will not do 'Housequake.'" So, I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the songs on Chaos and Disorder are a response to the grunge movement, but by 1996 Prince had already proven that he always rocked as hard as any one, and, true to this history of following his own way, Chaos and Disorder includes funk, pop, and reggae sounds along with rock.

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SuperFurryAnimal said: Many of his fans are agnostic, atheist etc. Was his early work more Christian or just Spiritual? Worlds of difference between Spiritual Christians and Social Christians.

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Yes, I agree with both points. My perspective, which, of course, may be different from others, is that even with the early songs Prince is working within the Christian framework. “Annie Christian,” “The Second Coming,” “Temptation,” and other songs are all rooted in the Christian ideology or framework, even if Prince is infusing his own spin or interpretation. And while I like his creative approach, I guess where I differ from some of the fans is that I never saw Prince being anti-Christian or trying to denounce Christianity. It seemed even then that he was having an open and honest conversation about Christianity from the standpoint of ‘hey, I dig some of what this ideology has to offer but some of it—some of the principles and behavior of those who consider themselves Christians—cause me to have some concerns, and it would be best if we discuss it all’. Of course, that’s just my interpretation of what he was doing. Yet, based on my understanding of what he was doing, I was not shocked when he released The Rainbow Children because I understood based on what he was saying early in his career that it was a great possibility that the position that he takes with The Rainbow Children was one of the roads that he could travel or one of the positions that he could embrace. It’s like someone on this site once asked “Why is Prince doing boring, traditional R&B when that is something that he was destroying in the eighties.” My response to that was that while Prince was infusing R&B with his own style, it was not his goal to destroy R&B or soul music. Songs, like “Do, Me Baby,” “International Lover,” and “Adore” do not seek to destroy the legacy of R&B or soul music but to explore and, ultimately, celebrate that legacy. And, so, it is not surprising that even today he continues to write R&B and soul songs. Similarly, Prince, when questioning and engaging Christian principles earlier in his career, was not trying to destroy that ideology so it was no surprise to me that he found a way to embrace Christianity in a way that it works (makes sense and gives him peace) for him. Thus, my goal is not to belittle fans who are frustrated, angry, or feel betrayed by Prince’s current Christian position. I just don’t understand how they couldn’t fathom or see the possibility of him developing his current religious ideology just like I can fathom Prince one day saying, “hey, I tried to live by the Christian principles, but they don’t or no longer work for me.’ I wouldn’t be surprised or feel betrayed if he embraced this position because, again, he has always presented himself as someone on his own journey in search of his own answers even while working within the Christian ideology or framework. Sometimes his position agrees with the majority, and sometimes his position agrees with the minority, and, whether I agree with him or not, I am rarely surprised or feel betrayed. Finally, Prince, like most African Americans (not to say that most races don’t do this but the Civil Rights Movement forced this intersection for many African Americans), has always blended spiritual and social Christianity, such as using gospel music with socio-political lyrics in “Free” in the vein of Freedom Songs and using biblical imagery to make socio-political commentary as in “U Will Be Move” and even the beginning of “1999,” which is the religious apocalypse of Revelations. I could be wrong, but I don’t remember reading any analysis of “1999,” including in Rolling Stone or in Dave Hill’s Prince: A Pop Life, that did not take for granted or that didn’t assert that Prince is working within the Christian narrative or framework.