Analyst said:

databank said:

Indeed.

There is NOT A SINGLE REASON to believe that Prince is behind any of these leaks, and MANY FACTS to support the fact that he isn't. Please stop spreading false theories Analyst: it's been discussed for years and there is no debate.

"Spreading false theories"?

Get over yourself. I had a random opinion on a topic and I said it. In no way was I stating any of that as fact, and frankly I'm free to say whatever I like as long as it doesn't go against the TOS of the board, and I'll continue to do just that. If you have a problem with that, I don't really care, to be blunt about it.

And frankly, I stand by that opinion too - it totally wouldn't surprise me - at all - if Prince puts this stuff out there himself. Maybe he does it this way because he gets a kick out of watching people play easter egg hunt for this stuff, or maybe he thinks it enhances the mystique around him and his work. I don't see at all how it's impossible. Why, just because he sometimes sics lawyers on people for copyright stuff? Let's be real here, it's a universal trait of human nature to say one thing and do another, I doubt Prince is any different in that respect. So he probably does the clutch-the-pearls act and pretends to be pissed off about this stuff publicly, then privately dumps it all onto the net himself.

Sorry, but as Databank so beautifully put it, you truly have NO idea how the whole bootleg game works. Prince absolutely has NOTHING to do with leaking outtakes, you can stand by whatever opinion you want, but it is incorrect. Of course the CONcept is not impossible, but it absolutely is NOT how it has worked over the years. He does not leak material.

Read the rest of this thread and get an education on how stuff gets leaked. Or continue to beLIEve your 100% incorrect theory. But sorry to break it to you, you are dead wrong. This theory crops up all the time and it is easily debunked with FACTS, as you'll see in the rest of this thread. Prince does not leak outtakes. Period.

databank said:

Spinlight said:

I seem to remember, in one of T's longwinded and terribly typed rants, that he had personally hung out with the person who stole the tapes that became Deposition (and eventually, PreposiTion). This was part of why he charged like $60 for burned copies of PreposiTion, which was just Deposition in the same or similar quality.

I also seem to remember that T knew which copies of things were his and which weren't because of little tags he'd put in them. I remember a clip of a perfectly mastered extended Computer Blue (bass-thumping, clear, sharp quality) in which T looped the opening guitar solo in the background. Nobody noticed it until he mentioned what he had done.

I also remember that his vow to Never Forget was that he would not leak the more rare songs or classic boots in pristine quality because it would've tipped off the breadcrumb trail all the way back to Prince.

For what it's worth, T is responsible for the vast (VAST) majority of outtakes we all have. Additionally, his tenure at The NPG Store in Uptown was short but he was able to get hundreds of songs that he has, mostly, shared. He also remastered the rehearsal Electric Intercourse by request to make it sound like it was done up for the PR album and it has made the rounds on countless boots.

When asked why "Large Room With No Light" has never surfaced in better quality, T simply stated that he never searched or asked for better quality copies because he hated the song.

Fascinating: I've read some T. stuff here and there but many things here are new to me. There should indeed be a compilation of his writings.

Question: how did working in the NPG Store allow him to put his hands on Vault songs? Was there a direct way to access the tracks or was it just because it allowed him to know the right people?

Question: this had to be around 1993-1994, but by then hundreds of outtakes were already out (though in very poor sound quality): what does it mean regarding T's involvement?

Question: is this T. the same person that worked at Edel and explained online how the Jacob Armen album and some promos were released without P's consent, and that some of the leaked 1994 stuff comes from tapes that were sent to Edel for possible future release (early Exodus configuration, 24...) or is this another guy?

I know that there was a french guy behind several early 90's bootlegs (the colors series IIRC, but I'm not sure), and at the time he told a mutual friend that he deliberately fucked-up the sound quality of the pristine tapes he had. It's possible that this guy lied to our mutual friend but said friend sure didn't lie to me, and he wasn't exactly a naive person. I wonder how this guy is related to T (if at all).

U know, when all is said and done it could be quite fascinating if someone published a history of Prince bootlegs: how the tracks leaked, all the stories between the "elite" traders, etc.

T claimed to have done some minor mastering work at Paisley. That was his deal - he's a sound engineer. He got a job at NPG Store and wanted to parlet that into something at Paisley. I do not believe the Edel guy and T are the same. T just met the right folks. He was a very nice and engaging guy even though he looked like something out of an 80s Metallica video.

The revolution of new bootlegs that came out around 1996+ were T's deal. Things like the aforementioned Fantasia and Deposition boots, along with Dreams shortly after. T released his OWN versions as well in most cases.

Spinlight said:

databank said:

Fascinating: I've read some T. stuff here and there but many things here are new to me. There should indeed be a compilation of his writings.

Question: how did working in the NPG Store allow him to put his hands on Vault songs? Was there a direct way to access the tracks or was it just because it allowed him to know the right people?

Question: this had to be around 1993-1994, but by then hundreds of outtakes were already out (though in very poor sound quality): what does it mean regarding T's involvement?

Question: is this T. the same person that worked at Edel and explained online how the Jacob Armen album and some promos were released without P's consent, and that some of the leaked 1994 stuff comes from tapes that were sent to Edel for possible future release (early Exodus configuration, 24...) or is this another guy?

I know that there was a french guy behind several early 90's bootlegs (the colors series IIRC, but I'm not sure), and at the time he told a mutual friend that he deliberately fucked-up the sound quality of the pristine tapes he had. It's possible that this guy lied to our mutual friend but said friend sure didn't lie to me, and he wasn't exactly a naive person. I wonder how this guy is related to T (if at all).

U know, when all is said and done it could be quite fascinating if someone published a history of Prince bootlegs: how the tracks leaked, all the stories between the "elite" traders, etc.

T claimed to have done some minor mastering work at Paisley. That was his deal - he's a sound engineer. He got a job at NPG Store and wanted to parlet that into something at Paisley. I do not believe the Edel guy and T are the same. T just met the right folks. He was a very nice and engaging guy even though he looked like something out of an 80s Metallica video.

The revolution of new bootlegs that came out around 1996+ were T's deal. Things like the aforementioned Fantasia and Deposition boots, along with Dreams shortly after. T released his OWN versions as well in most cases.

Thanks for the details and corrections

Mmmh... interesting: http://main.thedigitalgar.../136-satim

Notice how 10,000 Wallpaper is the first Satim release in years?

While we're at it did we ever know where the 1995 City Lights/Studio Nights series came from? These were from another source than T., weren't they?

also, who did that whole 'tweakin'' set? whilst the artwork is horrendous,

i've noticed that some of the songs are WAY better soundquality.

is that simply due to someone (re)mastering them? or cleaning them up?

for instance, "big tall wall" sounds better on Tweakin 5 than it ever did on

any other boot.

databank said:

Notice how 10,000 Wallpaper is the first Satim release in years?

It isn't, read again.

I didn't even know about that one collection (Tweakin').

All these different releases make me crazy: I just don't have the patience to try and compare 'em all out track by track to get the best quality version of each track

At least with Box Of Chocolate, Exodus V1 & V2, Parade Demos or 10,000 Wallpaper, I know I have the best versions period. Same could be with 4DF's Corporate World except that they faked My Summertiùme Thang... I wish they'd have released both the original and their customized version, at least giving us a choice

vc40 said:

databank said:

Notice how 10,000 Wallpaper is the first Satim release in years?

It isn't, read again.

I will, thanks

Just heard The Line--it sounds amazing.

There's nothing on "Perfect Unreleased" that I didn't already have. I have yet to go through the whole set though, so I guess some of them may be in better quality.

The "Connections" set is something else entirely.

Militant said:

The "Connections" set is something else entirely.

Are you familiar with its tracklist though?

Militant said:

There's nothing on "Perfect Unreleased" that I didn't already have. I have yet to go through the whole set though, so I guess some of them may be in better quality.

The "Connections" set is something else entirely.

This is what i suspected to be but i heard recently too that this project in fact do not exist & was not intended to be proposed...so time will tell!

Harlepolis said:

Militant said:

The "Connections" set is something else entirely.

Are you familiar with its tracklist though?

Not aside from the 4 tracks that already came out from it.

for your taste maybe & for your comprehension:

1. Irresistible Bitch - Original Demo Version (1981)
I'm immediately cheating a bit, because Irresistible Bitch was released as the b-side of the single Let's Pretend We're Married, the fourth and final single from Prince's fifth album 1999. And in 1993, it was included as the eleventh track on The B-Sides compilation (included as the third and final disc on The Hits/The B-Sides). While specific recording dates for Irresistible Bitch are not known, it was initially recorded in sequence with Feel U Up in late 1981 at Prince's home studio at Kiowa Trail, Chanhassen. The song was later re-recorded in September 1983. However, the original demo version is more interesting in my book, because with its synths and drum computer, this version contains the first characteristics of what would become the Minneapolis Sound.

2. Baby, You're A Trip (1982)
Baby, You're A Trip is the eighth and final track on Jill Jones' same-titled 1987 album, released on Prince's label Paisley Park. Although Jill Jones was given official writing credits, the song was written solely by Prince. He even recorded his own complete version - this one. Initial tracking for Prince's original version took place in July 1982 and mixed the song further in January 1986 (on the same day as mixing other tracks for Jill Jones' album; With You, Mia Bocca and G-Spot).

3. Lust U Always (1982)
An unreleased song recorded in 1982 at Prince's Kiowa Trail home studio. The song paraphrases some lyrics from Joni Mitchell's song Twisted (later played once on the One Nite Alone... Tour), but thematically fits in well with much of his 1981/1982 material, concerning the narrator's uncontrollable lust for a woman. It is not known if the song was intended for Prince's next album 1999 or any other project. It was submitted for copyright five years after its recording and Prince offered it to the late Robert Palmer soon after, but he turned the song down.

4. Purple Music (1982)
Recorded at some point in 1982 at Prince's Kiowa Trail home studio. It is unknown if it was considered for inclusion on 1999 or any other project. The song is a monotonous uptempo track, sparsely instrumented by a bouncy drum machine beat provided by the Linn LM-1 and a synth bass line, a scratchy guitar riff reminiscent of Controversy and a simple synth-lead line, not too far removed from the lead line of 1999's All The Critics Love U In New York. It has an anti-drug message in which Prince says that "purple music" does the same to his brain as reefer or cocaine. Prince's voice sounds slightly manipulated (although not to the effect that he would later utilize for songs performed as Camille, like If I Was Your Girlfriend), to suggest he is indeed getting high on his music as he sings.

5. Computer Blue - Full Version (1983)
Again, I'm cheating a bit, because Computer Blue has of course been released as the fourth track on Purple Rain. But this version is the longest circulating, clocking in at 14.03 minutes, and has never been released as such. Here's why: before a studio recording was made, Prince and the Revolution recorded the song live during a benefit concert on August 3, 1983 at First Avenue, Minneapolis (during which I Would Die 4 U, Baby, I'm A Star and Purple Rain also were recorded). Later in August, 1983, a studio version was recorded at The St. Louis Park Warehouse, St. Louis Park, Minnesota, with the full Revolution, before at least three other versions were recorded mid-August 1983, with only Wendy Melvoin and Lisa Coleman participating. These versions would be edited down for the album and are largely similar at the beginning and end of the song - differences are noticeable in the middle of the track. The version of Computer Blue I selected for this compilation was included as the third track on the November 1983 configuration of the Purple Rain album, but it was edited down for the final April 1984 album configuration to make room for the inclusion of Take Me With U. A pity, if you ask me

6. Electric Intercourse - Live at First Avenue (1983)
At the benefit concert on August 3, 1983, Electric Intercourse was also played - and thus recorded. In my humble opinion, Electric Intercourse is one of the best songs Prince ever wrote, and judging the raving comments this song usually gets amongst Prince fans, I'm not alone. No studio version is known to exist; Prince used the live version when adding overdubs to the track in mid-September, 1983. It is likely the track was planned to be included on Purple Rain in the same overdubbed-live format as I Would Die 4 U, Baby I'm A Star and Purple Rain. A few days after recording overdubs, however, Prince recorded The Beautiful Ones, which replaced Electric Intercourse. Again, a pity in my opinion, because even though I love The Beautiful Ones, Electric Intercourse is a true gem.

7. Possessed (1983)
Possessed was released in a live version on the Prince And The Revolution: Live VHS and is credited as a dedication to James Brown. No studio version of the track has been released. Initial tracking took place in May 1983 at Prince's home studio, two months after the song's first live appearance. He recorded a new version in March 1984 for use in the Purple Rain movie. A short instrumental portion plays in the movie in the background of a scene in which Morris Day tries to seduce Apollonia.

8. All Day, All Night (1984)
All Day, All Night is the fifth track on Jill Jones' self-titled album, released on the Paisley Park label. Although Jill Jones shared official writing credits, the song was written solely by Prince and is registered at the Library of Congress as having been written by Joey Coco, a pseudonym Prince used for a while. Initial tracking for Prince's original version took place during a concert on Prince's birthday, 7 June, 1984 at First Avenue, Minneapolis, during the same show where the basic tracks for Our Destiny and Roadhouse Garden were also recorded. Prince added further instrumentation and Jill Jones added vocals at a later date (likely in July, 1986, although this is unconfirmed).

9. Our Destiny (1984)
Also recorded during Prince and the Revolution's concert on 7 June, 1984 at First Avenue. The track segued directly into Roadhouse Garden. Wendy Melvoin and Lisa Coleman worked on the track further for three days in late September 1984 (during the same sessions where they recorded string overdubs for Pop Life from the Around The World In A Day album). They added a string section to the track which Prince later reused for the opening of The Ladder, recorded a few months later. Our Destiny is not known to have been considered for inclusion on Around The World In A Day, or any other project at the time. It is likely that it was planned for inclusion on the Prince and the Revolution album Roadhouse Garden (worked on in 1998/1999), but the album, and the song, remain unreleased.

10. Go (1985)
Recorded in early August 1985, with only Wendy Melvoin and Lisa Coleman. Prince worked on the track further in late October 1985, when bandmembers arrived in France for the video shoot of the America single, although it was worked on in rehearsal, rather than in the studio. Engineer Susan Rogers noted that Prince put a lot of time and effort into the track, and must have been seriously considering it for release, although it was not included on any known configuration of the Parade album or any other project. It is likely that the song was considered for the announced Prince and the Revolution album Roadhouse Garden in 1998/1999, but this is speculative. The track remains unreleased.

11. Baby Go-Go (1986)
Released as the third track on the Nona Hendryx album Female Trouble, and, about two months later, Baby Go-Go was released as the album's second single. Initial tracking took place in June 1986. Nona Hendryx re-recorded the track with her own musicians in early 1987, with both Mavis Staples and George Clinton adding background vocals (both of whom Prince would come to work with directly in the following years). Prince's version remains unreleased. To compare both versions, listen to Nona's take of Baby Go-Go, lacking the funky guitar licks from Prince's version

12. Data Bank (1986)
Written, produced AND recorded by Prince, but credited to The Time. Initial tracking took place on in June 1986, and was re-recorded with Morris Day on lead vocals in summer 1989 at Paisley Park Studios, when Prince and Morris Day worked on the projected fourth album by The Time, Corporate World, which later morphed into Pandemonium. Either way, Prince's own version is far more interesting (and superior) to The Time's version; it's a great example of how prolific Prince was in the mid-Eighties with not just writing many, many great songs, but even recording them.

13. Rebirth Of The Flesh (1986)
On some bootlegs wrongfully called Semi-A-Collia, Rebirth Of The Flesh was originally recorded in late October 1986 and planned to be included as the first track on the November 1986 configuration of the Camille album (credited to Prince's pseudonym Camille), which was later aborteer. A few weeks later, it was included as the first track on the first disc of the triple-album Crystal Ball on the late November 1986 configuration. The track was removed when the album was eventually trimmed down to become Sign O' The Times.

14. The Ball (1986)
Recorded in July 1986 and included as the fourth track on the second disc on the late November 1986 configuration of the Crystal Ball triple LP, which was created as the follow-up to Parade, segueing directly into Joy In Repetition. When Prince had to trim down the album (Warner Brothers refused to release a triple album, foreseeing a commercial flop and because they found Prince was releasing too much music within a short time, risking he would saturate the market) and it developed into Sign O' The Times, the track was removed (along with the 12-minute long title track from Crystal Ball. In December 1987, Prince re-recorded the track with new lyrics as Eye No (released as the opening track from his 1988 Lovesexy album), but kept the original segue ending the track (which was also used at the beginning of the released version of Joy In Repetition, later released on Graffiti Bridge in 1990).

15. Witness 4 The Prosecution (1986)
Witness 4 The Prosecution was initially recorded in March 1986, and further recording was done by Wendy Melvoin, Lisa Coleman, Susannah Melvoin and Eric Leeds in April 1986, while Prince was en route returning from France shooting additional scenes for Under The Cherry Moon. While the track was not included on a late April 1986 configuration of the (never released) Dream Factory album, it was included as the 15th song on the June 1986 configuration, and as the 16th track on the July 1986 configuration. Prince re-recorded the track completely in October 1986, the day before disbanding The Revolution (the reason Dream Factory was never released). In late 1998/1999, the track was intended for inclusion on the Roadhouse Garden album of Prince and the Revolution-era tracks, but this album remains unreleased.

16. The Line - Later Version (1987)
The Line was initially recorded late December 1987, during a stretch of sessions focused on the Lovesexy album. It was written in response to a poem by Ingrid Chavez which Prince had recorded with her earlier in the month, entitled Cross The Line. However, that is not the version on this compilation; the initial version was sparsely arranged. Prince added horns, percussion and several chants in January 1988; this version was included on an early version of the album, compiled on 21 January, 1988, but was removed for a February configuration, replaced by I Wish U Heaven. The song includes a chanted portion used in live shows since early 1987, "People, people. I've got a brand new dance", which mentions Housequake (from the Sign O' The Times album). The track ends with vocalist Boni Boyer singing lyrics from Take My Hand, Precious Lord. A scream by Boni Boyer from this track was later used in the opening seconds of Acknowledge Me from the 1994 Come album (credited incorrectly to "Bonni Boyer"), with the liner notes stating that The Line was "2 b released at a later date". The song remains unreleased, though.

17. Fuchsia Light (1988)
Fuchsia Light was recorded in April 1988 for possible use on Tony LeMans' Paisley Park Records 1989 album Tony LeMans. At some point between mid-1988 and early 1989, Tony LeMans recorded lead vocal overdubs, but the song was not included on the release; it is believed Prince pulled the song after returning from the Lovesexy Tour upon discovering that LeMans was having an affair with Ingrid Chavez. The song's theme of a colored light being used during the act of lovemaking was later used in Blue Light (from the 1992 'Symbol' album, but the tracks are otherwise unrelated. Prince also reused a phrase from the track, "monogamy and trust", in Sex (the B-side from Scandalous from 1989), but this should not be considered a quote or reference to this song.

18. The Max (1988)
This version of The Max was recorded in February 1988, but is entirely different from the 'Symbol' album track of the same name, except from the line 'This is The Max'. It is not known if the track was intended for any specific project. A saxophone riff from this track was later reused in Carmen On Top, released on her 1991 album.

19. Dance With The Devil (1989)
Recorded in February 1989 during initial sessions for the Batman movie and accompanying Batman soundtrack album. The song is based around the phrase "You ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight?", used in the movie by The Joker (played by Jack Nicholson), which is sampled during the track (this was later sampled in Batdance, but is not considered a sample of this track as it originates from the movie). The track also samples a Gregorian chant, initially used in Madhouse's 21-24 (The Dopamine Rush Suite). The track is long and suite-like, containing several separate sections, including a classical synth run similar to the ending of When Doves Cry. It was included as the ninth and final track on a March 1989, configuration of the Batman album. Prince felt the track was too dark, however, and replaced it with Batdance, which was recorded in mid-to-late March. The track remains unreleased, unfortunately.

20. Come - Original Version (1993)
OK, this is a complicated one. Come is released in an entirely different version on Prince's album Come from 1994. In 1993, an earlier recording of Come was included in the Glam Slam Ulysses stage-show, during the segment titled "The Trojan Horse" (credited, as was the whole project, to ) In 1994, four months before the album's release, the studio promotional video of Come (using yet another recording of the track, the one included in this compilation) was included in The Beautiful Experience TV movie (again credited, as was the whole project, to ) It is not clear when the version used in The Beautiful Experience was recorded, but it is likely this was recorded in late 1993 or early 1994 at Paisley Park Studios. At this point Prince, pardon, was working on The Dawn, and Come was planned for inclusion. It was also planned for inclusion on an early version of The Beautiful Experience EP (before the EP was turned into a simple maxi-single for The Most Beautiful Girl In The World). Strangely, when abandoned The Dawn, the track was not included on the configuration of the March 1994 configuration of Come, but when Warner Bros. asked for Prince to include the title track, he recorded yet another version, in mid-April, 1994. A configuration of Come from April-May, 1994 includes two versions of Come (although the versions are unknown). A planned "live" single from 1994 also included Come as the opening track, segueing (as the track often did in live settings) into Endorphinmachine. In the summer of 1994, worked on various remixes of the track for a planned Come EP, details of which are not known, but this EP was known to include 18 & Over (released in 1998 on the Crystal Ball cd set). While 18 & Over clearly derives from Come, it is an entirely different track. Get it?

Yay!!!!

Just when I needed a fix

It is amazing how much more T takes credit for these days than he did in 1995. Back then, he didn't have the balls to claim he had ever even been to the state of Minnesota because those of us who knew him from before would have called him out on it. At his current pace, he'll be claiming DNA kinship with the Nelson family before long. T was a just another tape trader when I "met" him in the mid 90s. And I traded outtake tapes to him that he thanked me profusely for, and they didn't seem all that rare to me (or hard to obtain) at the time. In short, the tales of T are greatly inflated (by him, and it seems, by others). We would have 100% of what we now have if T had been a Wacko Jacko fan instead of a Prince fan; he is of no consequence in our universe.

LaceyB said:

It is amazing how much more T takes credit for these days than he did in 1995. Back then, he didn't have the balls to claim he had ever even been to the state of Minnesota because those of us who knew him from before would have called him out on it. At his current pace, he'll be claiming DNA kinship with the Nelson family before long. T was a just another tape trader when I "met" him in the mid 90s. And I traded outtake tapes to him that he thanked me profusely for, and they didn't seem all that rare to me (or hard to obtain) at the time. In short, the tales of T are greatly inflated (by him, and it seems, by others). We would have 100% of what we now have if T had been a Wacko Jacko fan instead of a Prince fan; he is of no consequence in our universe.

So, you're saying that T never went to Minneapolis ever? lol. And that everything he said back in the day was alllllll a lie? Hmm. Nothing like a stranger randomly claiming things that hundreds of people know to be true are totally fabricated. Proof?

LaceyB said:

It is amazing how much more T takes credit for these days than he did in 1995. Back then, he didn't have the balls to claim he had ever even been to the state of Minnesota because those of us who knew him from before would have called him out on it. At his current pace, he'll be claiming DNA kinship with the Nelson family before long. T was a just another tape trader when I "met" him in the mid 90s. And I traded outtake tapes to him that he thanked me profusely for, and they didn't seem all that rare to me (or hard to obtain) at the time. In short, the tales of T are greatly inflated (by him, and it seems, by others). We would have 100% of what we now have if T had been a Wacko Jacko fan instead of a Prince fan; he is of no consequence in our universe.

I know T. I've gotten stuff from him since the late 90's and I've even hung out with him at the last celebration at Paisley Park, where he was recognized and harassed by security like he was posted up in the office as a "watch out for... former employee and bootleger".

He did work for the Prince camp and was friends with people there back in the early 90's. I don't think he was an actual sound engineer on any Prince albums, more like on some associated artist albums at the time.

Now... there are a few people that go by "T" in the Prince bootleg world. If you know the one that I'm talking about, you probably know his name. Orgnote it to me so I know we are talking about the same person.

Are you sure you don't have another T in mind? The "T" I know never traded tapes, only cdr's, and with printed track lists. He had stuff that no one had let out. Like "God is Alive" both parts. He still has things no one has, I suspect.

[Edited 7/27/12 19:23pm]

ufoclub said:

LaceyB said:

It is amazing how much more T takes credit for these days than he did in 1995. Back then, he didn't have the balls to claim he had ever even been to the state of Minnesota because those of us who knew him from before would have called him out on it. At his current pace, he'll be claiming DNA kinship with the Nelson family before long. T was a just another tape trader when I "met" him in the mid 90s. And I traded outtake tapes to him that he thanked me profusely for, and they didn't seem all that rare to me (or hard to obtain) at the time. In short, the tales of T are greatly inflated (by him, and it seems, by others). We would have 100% of what we now have if T had been a Wacko Jacko fan instead of a Prince fan; he is of no consequence in our universe.

I know T. I've gotten stuff from him since the late 90's and I've even hung out with him at the last celebration at Paisley Park, where he was recognized and harassed by security like he was posted up in the office as a "watch out for... former employee and bootleger".

He did work for the Prince camp and was friends with people there back in the early 90's. I don't think he was an actual sound engineer on any Prince albums, more like on some associated artist albums at the time.

Now... there are a few people that go by "T" in the Prince bootleg world. If you know the one that I'm talking about, regards you probably know his name. Orgnote it to me.

Are you sure you don't have another T in mind? The "T" I know never traded tapes, only cdr's, and with printed track lists. He had stuff that no one had let out. Like "God is Alive" both parts. He still has things no one has, I suspect.

And I've only ever known one person named T in the Prince world. The same T everyone else who was around 15+ years ago knows. The same one with the same long hair, originally from Florida (or at least he lived in Florida after MN).

Militant said:

There's nothing on "Perfect Unreleased" that I didn't already have. I have yet to go through the whole set though, so I guess some of them may be in better quality.

The "Connections" set is something else entirely.

U already had Go, The Max and the second version of The Line????

olb99 said:

Spinlight said:

Fantasia and Deposition were physically stolen from T. That's a big difference.

Really? That's not how I remember the story...

As Bart once said, we should build an archive of all the stuff T posted on amp, etc. Lots of interesting stories to read in there.

Unfortunately, most of his posts are gone. He usually posted with the header "X-Archive: No" and thus those posts ain't coming up in Google Groups. If you're lucky, you'll see parts quoted, but often even those posts are gone because software like Agent tended to copy over that header when you replied to a post with that header. (Although I'm pretty sure all those posts are still in the DejaNews archive Google acquired; they just do not show them.)

It also doesn't help that he used a ton of aliases, and searching for "T" isn't exactly doable. The best thing would be if someone either archived those old usenet posts themselves, or has a copy of Agent that contaisn all that data.

Too bad that there isn't a single usenet company out there that actually kept copies of the text data. These days I bet that wouldn't be more than a couple of HDs if you didn't compress it. So sad that tons of information from that era is seemingly lost. Although I bet that there are archives of most/all of it; Microsoft had a tool years ago where you could go back ages into your usenet history, even stuff from the binaries.

Man, there's so much stuff from back in those days that would be gold to dig through. The Prince Family's website (hell, I'd love to see a digital archive of the contents of their newsletters), Prince's official websites (I have an archive of most of the news somewhere on a HD, but I just don't have the time to even look for it).

If Prince hadn't been such a dick starting 15 years ago, we could have had an online archive that would be killer (remember Warren Mason's The Vault?); instead now there's the guys from PrinceVault slowly filling a wiki with data from books Uptown published years ago and the Org has hundreds of users wasting time on "oooh doesn't Pricne's ass look awesome in this pic?" threads.

databank said:

Well, regarding that Edel story, that guy who worked there (who may or may not be T., i can't remember)

T didn't work there. Edel is a German company.

databank said:

explained on a forum that Prince had sent them quite a number of tapes for intended future releases (was this for pure informational purposes or masters to be used for pressing? I don't know...), at some point in 1994 when NPG Records was supposed to be the new Paisley Park, with the 1-800 New-Funk comp being the starting point of the new label.

This guy explained that Edel's executives decided to release, in a very limited number, Jacob Armen's album and a couple of singles or promo singles (Mayte mostly, and possibly the Margie Cox/Madhouse single but I'm not sure) without waiting for Prince's greenlight (which never came) and without telling anyone at Paisley Park (they never knew), the only purpose of the whole operation being that Edel's executives would have rare collectibles in their hands, that they could later sell for high prices on the collector's market. These releases were official, with catalogue number and all, but nonetheless done without anyone's approval. It's unlikely that these records were ever sent to record stores, and if they were it was only a matter of a few dozens or a few hundreds at most.

They were distributed. I bought Jacob Armen's record in a regular record store, ditto the Margie Cox/Madhouse single.

databank said:

This is ONLY my personal theory (i.e. the guy didn't say anything about it), but the only reason that some other things they had, such as Madhouse's 24, ended-up as bootlegs is possibly that they were higher profile releases in terms of Prince involvement, and that no matter how limited, there's no way Prince wouldn't have known about a new Madhouse album, or an alternate version of Exodus, let alone a release of the Love Sign maxi-single WB had forbidden.

By that time Prince had heard about those releases.

databank said:

Another interesting info that this guy revealed is that at this point in 1994, Prince planned to rerelease quite a number of Paisley Park albums on Edel: the first 2 Madhouse, Ingrid Chavez' album, the 2 Eric Leeds' albums and a couple of others. Eventually, only Hey Man, Smell My Finger and The Voice were rereleased by Edel. One may wonder how Prince could possibly have done this with WB owning the masters, and this was solved by Alan Leeds, who explained on this very forum that the rights for most of Paisley Park's releases reverted back to Prince as soon as WB shut the label down, which in turn may also explain why Prince copyrighted the names of Mazarati and Good Question a few years back, as well as his reluctance to let The Time and The Family use their old names.

Most likely only the PPR releases previous to WB becoming part-owner. They had plenty of upcoming releases that never left the vault.

Spinlight said:

The revolution of new bootlegs that came out around 1996+ were T's deal. Things like the aforementioned Fantasia and Deposition boots, along with Dreams shortly after. T released his OWN versions as well in most cases.

"Dream Factory" is also his work. Sold it to a bootleg label, but then it got leaked shortly before the release.

Too bad he never finished his work on compiling all the associated artists' vinyl releases. Or that the video stuff never went anywhere (though IIRC he did do the audio for some DVD boots).

databank said:

Question: how did working in the NPG Store allow him to put his hands on Vault songs? Was there a direct way to access the tracks or was it just because it allowed him to know the right people?

If you wanna meet Prince freaks, what better place?

Question: this had to be around 1993-1994, but by then hundreds of outtakes were already out (though in very poor sound quality): what does it mean regarding T's involvement?

AFAIK T only started being active in the mid/late 1990s. I still recall seeing him advertising his wares on amp and thinking "can't be worth it" -- untill I read other people's rave reviews. It also helped that he shared a ton of information. So many times where he proved that he wasn't bulshitting by uploading a pristine MP3 of a track/snippet that only circulated in horrible quality. I recall hearing the "Hallway Spech" in crystal clear quality after years of only having a muddy copy... Or getting his releases and blasting them really loud and thinking "man these things sound as good as official releases and all he has as a source is a crummy cassette copy".

U know, when all is said and done it could be quite fascinating if someone published a history of Prince bootlegs: how the tracks leaked, all the stories between the "elite" traders, etc.

Ain't gonna happen, because inevitably you'd burn a source that might still be sitting on some sweet outtakes. Sure, he hasn't let go of those in years, but all it takes is one financial setback... Don't forget that in plenty of cases those things can be traced back to people who still get a regular cheque from Prince for copyrigths etc.

BartVanHemelen said:

Too bad he never finished his work on compiling all the associated artists' vinyl releases. Or that the video stuff never went anywhere (though IIRC he did do the audio for some DVD boots).

I think the Fun With Vynil series did a good job on that.

Yes, T did the audio for Syracuse and The World.