Spinlight said:

L4OATheOriginal said:

but the songs ur mentioning aren't played on a every concert basis. playing them every once in a blue moon or even some of the songs from that 3 concert in one day was back in 2009. it would different if ur saying he did these songs every time out but he's not

You notice he doesn't give any specific examples from the Welcome 2... tours because he can't.

And, you were right on the money, doing a song 3 years ago (once) doesn't mean he's regularly tossing anything into any set list. The setlists have not changed in almost 10 years now, since the ONA tour. It's the same ol familiar tracks shuffled around.

Thirty familiar songs he has played ad nauseum over the past 20 years, mixed and matched. So maybe he does (for example) Cool, Raspberry Beret, a sampler set (with snippets of Adore, Insatiable, and HCUDCMA), Little Red Corvette, and Mountains one night. The next night he will do Purple Rain, Uptown, Let's Go Crazy, a piano segment (with snippets of Call My Name, Beautiful Ones, and Scandalous), and Strange Relationship.

Swapping those 2 nights back and forth over and over does not mean he is varying the setlist. Throwing in one or two left field tracks (like Cool or Strange Relationship) is nice, but says nothing for the other 90 minutes of setlist left.

It is very, very, very clear what some people are talking about in this thread. They want setlists with the majority being NEW MATERIAL or RARE TRACKS being the primary/only focus. Not a special one here and there eclipsed by 8 minute jams on Pass the Peas, Go Go Go chants, and Clap Ya Handz, Stomp Ya Feetz.

Having seen w2america and W2Canada tours. He did do two different shows. I'd say about 60% of each show was the same. That still 40% different song selection.

ntpoet said:

Come on Prince! Why won't you do a reunion with the Revolution? You know Bobby almost died right!? Come on. Just do it. Do Let's Go Crazy, Purple Rain, Girls and Boys, and America and then say goodnite and go on home. They are not mad at you. They still love you.

Prince--who is arguly one of the most gifted musicians and performers of our times--has single-handedly destroyed his career.

For him to dump the NPG and reunite with the Revolution at this point would be an admission of FAILURE on Prince's part. Somethiing I honestly believes he knows deep down inside but is unready to admit.

Dumping the Revolution was the beginning of the end to Prince's fiery hot career.

[Edited 5/31/12 19:56pm]

PanicAttack said:

ntpoet said:

Come on Prince! Why won't you do a reunion with the Revolution? You know Bobby almost died right!? Come on. Just do it. Do Let's Go Crazy, Purple Rain, Girls and Boys, and America and then say goodnite and go on home. They are not mad at you. They still love you.

Prince--who is arguly one of the most gifted musicians and performers of our times--has single-handedly destroyed his career.

For him to dump the NPG and reunite with the Revolution at this point would be an admission of FAILURE on Prince's part. Somethiing I honestly believes he knows deep down inside but is unready to admit.

Dumping the Revolution was the beginning of the end to Prince's fiery hot career.

[Edited 5/31/12 19:56pm]

I think that is a large statement that needs to be held up by facts. Keep in mind Diamonds and Pearls out sold Parade.

Prince still is one of the top selling artists of all time. Still is a big draw at concerts. As for being "Hot" that can only last for so long.

kewlschool said:

PanicAttack said:

Prince--who is arguly one of the most gifted musicians and performers of our times--has single-handedly destroyed his career.

For him to dump the NPG and reunite with the Revolution at this point would be an admission of FAILURE on Prince's part. Somethiing I honestly believes he knows deep down inside but is unready to admit.

Dumping the Revolution was the beginning of the end to Prince's fiery hot career.

[Edited 5/31/12 19:56pm]

I think that is a large statement that needs to be held up by facts. Keep in mind Diamonds and Pearls out sold Parade.

Prince still is one of the top selling artists of all time. Still is a big draw at concerts. As for being "Hot" that can only last for so long.

rdhull said:

L4OATheOriginal said:

but the songs ur mentioning aren't played on a every concert basis. playing them every once in a blue moon or even some of the songs from that 3 concert in one day was back in 2009. it would different if ur saying he did these songs every time out but he's not

He doesn't mix it up each show?

he mixes it up but it's mainly shows that fall into two categories, songs that don't reach no later than 1991 or he'll play one song from 2004 keep the rest grounded in the 81-84 bracket

kewlschool said:

Prince still is one of the top selling artists of all time.

Pur-lease. Dude's record sales never were anywhere near someone like Michael Jackson or Madonna. D&P was his first album to go above 5 million post Purple Rain and he had to a) make it into a slick commercial album and b) tour the frikking world to sell that much.

Lately his albums are free gifts with newspapers.

Still is a big draw at concerts.

Plenty of nostalgia acts are.

rdhull said:

L4OATheOriginal said:

but the songs ur mentioning aren't played on a every concert basis. playing them every once in a blue moon or even some of the songs from that 3 concert in one day was back in 2009. it would different if ur saying he did these songs every time out but he's not

He doesn't mix it up each show?

No he doesn't. There are obviously a number of setlists that get rotated.

Go ahead, make an excel sheet and you'll see the same songs played in the same order over and over again, year after year.

Graycap23 said:

Funkmeimfamous said:

i honestly can't believe how overrated the revolution are by some fans. they were not a band in the strictest sense, they his backing band!!! sure, they influenced and contributed to his music in some ways but it was always his ship. individually they were all unremarkable musicians employed by prince as props because of their diversity and because they made him stand out even more. only with a backing band could he classify himself as a bandleader and bonafide rock frontman. they did have great on-stage chemistry but i believe that's because prince ran such a tight ship, much like JB. i'm pretty confident that if not for prince we would not even know who these individuals are. besides, i prefer the dez-era band. W&L's contribution is so grossly overrated it's laughable.

It's interesting isn't it? I still don't understand after all of these years.

Says the guy who doesn't get Jimi Hendrix.

So Prince is hopefully recovered by now from his cold.

The problem now is, how to gross more than 12.5 million in a month. Hhhmmmmm yeah, that's a big one!

eyewishuheaven said:

[EDIT: to be fair, it would have been insanity not to focus on Purple Rain during the Purple Rain tour. ]

He was playing PR-centric concerts from the start, not after six months when it had become a hit. He played his latest music -- including UNRELEASED songs.

1725topp said:

With Purple Rain, Prince could ignore the past albums because of the mass appeal of Purple Rain.

Those gigs were 80-90% PR material plus B-Sides and UNRELEASED songs from the start. He didn't start out playing 50% old and 50% new and then mixed in PR once it became a hit, instead he had confidence in his new material and actually promoted it.

Unfortunately for him, his newer work no longer has that same mass appeal so it is a decision that he makes to play larger venues for more money, which means playing hits rather than playing smaller venues and using a website to get tickets to diehard fans so that he can play newer music.

Bullcrap. PROVE IT. I bet you can't. Aftershows feature the same songs as the main shows. Show me this mythical after show where he played mostly deep cuts and I'll provide you with dozens where he played the same crap. Go check out the 1988 Trojan Horse gig: apart from Housequake not a single song was part of the main Lovesexy gigs.

However, one caveat is that many of the so-called diehard fans claim not to like his newer music. So, he is damned if he plays hits and damned if he plays newer music. And while I'd like to see the defiant artist say "F-em, I'm playing was on my heart," when you get a certain age, one tends to mellow, take the large check, and play the new songs when and where one can.

Neil Young doesn't. Pearl Jam don't. Springsteen plays his latest music in concert. Madonna largely plays new music.

Stop making excuses, when the answer if crystal clear.

BartVanHemelen said:

Neil Young doesn't. Pearl Jam don't. Springsteen plays his latest music in concert. Madonna largely plays new music.

But Bart dear,

Prince is not Neil Young, Pearl Jam, Springsteen or Madonna. He is Prince. Why should he do what they are doing? How boring. Prince didn't get to where is today by following others.

MJ always played his hits with a new song here and there and we know how his concerts sold out, not to mention that he nearly bought the internet to a halt when he passed. Prince did the Vegas tour with TRC album, Montreux with a beautiful mix of everything, Musicology, NSJ with great varied setlists....Why can't he take his hits tour around the world? We get the setlists in real time now no matter where he is but for each country, for the majority fan base, it's the first time they're hearing them. They are not the ones that come to this board and complain

Nostalgic means feeling sometimes happy and sometimes sad about the past, but as far as I can read on the net, no-one's feeling sad after the concerts so nostalgia act is incorrect.

Spinlight said:

It is very, very, very clear what some people are talking about in this thread. They want setlists with the majority being NEW MATERIAL or RARE TRACKS being the primary/only focus. Not a special one here and there eclipsed by 8 minute jams on Pass the Peas, Go Go Go chants, and Clap Ya Handz, Stomp Ya Feetz.

First, I would love a tour where music from 2000 to 2010 dominates the setlist, but I have been one of those rare Kool-Aid drinkers who has celebrated that music. So, while I don't disagree that Prince has been playing mostly hits, I would at least like to have those people who have been saying that "Prince has lost it or has not produced quality music since blah, blah, blah," to admit that it is hypocritical to bemoan how bad his past twenty-year output has been and then bemoan that all he plays are the hits. To be clear, I'm not directing my response at you, per se, but why is it so difficult for so many so-called Prince fans to see how their constant negativity along with low sells affect what he plays live? So, again, I don't refute that Prince has been playing mostly the hits since ONA, but it is not because he is coasting. It's what he must do to sell tickets. Also, let me be clear that I'm not saying that people should celebrate or praise songs that they don't like just so Prince will play new songs live. But it is, to some degree (and please pardon the pun) "Cause and Effect”. And I understand that those of us who see him live almost every year or have every concert on bootleg are tired of the hits, but it’s about business and support.

*

Additionally, I don't think that the org is the one place Prince checks before he makes his decisions, but maybe if there was a real organized effort (which I know is emotionally difficult for some because of Prince's past negative actions toward fansites) by the org, MoQuake, and others of enough fans to push for the next tour to be of smaller venues where he plays those rare and new songs. (Since so many people are complaining about it, we should at least see if we can affect the situation or shut up.) It could be called the No Hits Tour, which is more of a "Buyer Beware" clause for the casual fan. Can't you see the promo?: "You just saw him last week doing all the hits that he's been doing for the past twenty years. Now, come pay a whole lot more money to hear him play songs that only his no-life diehard fans know, and most of them don't even like those songs." But, seriously, I'm not against a coordinated effort between fansites to say to Prince that his diehard fans want something else. Then, the question for him--along with the notion of him even considering the idea from fansites--will be how financially feasible a small-venue, no-hits tour will be.

*

But, let me end on this note: I want to hear "Colonized Mind," "Dance 4 Me," "Ol' Skool Company" "No More Candy 4 U," "Valentina," "Feel Better...," "Crimson & Clover," "Fury," "3121," "Love," "Lolita," "Get on the Boat," "Guitar," and all of Rainbow Children, Musicology, and 20Ten, but how many others on this site want a show with mostly these songs? It's one thing to talk the talk, but who's willing to walk the walk and pay the high-ass ticket price just for these songs,...with a long-ass encore of "Purple Rain," of course?

1725topp said:

But, let me end on this note: I want to hear "Colonized Mind," "Dance 4 Me," "Ol' Skool Company" "No More Candy 4 U," "Valentina," "Feel Better...," "Crimson & Clover," "Fury," "3121," "Love," "Lolita," "Get on the Boat," "Guitar," and all of Rainbow Children, Musicology, and 20Ten, but how many others on this site want a show with mostly these songs? It's one thing to talk the talk, but who's willing to walk the walk and pay the high-ass ticket price just for these songs,...with a long-ass encore of "Purple Rain," of course?

i'm down but just get rid of purple rain and we're good. enough is enough of that song

KCOOLMUZIQ said:

thebanishedone said:

I'm affraid Bart is right about this.Prince plays the samesongs on aftershows.I don't know what happened to Prince.is he tired,did he lost his muse? Maybe some fans didn't like Rainbow Children era but Prince was on fire.Every aftershow he played was amazing with some of the best and most virtuoso performance by Prince and his band. He did great aftershows in 2004 and 2007 ,now days he plays Let's Work and Cream at his aftershows.how lame is that.Is Prince bored with the music or he tries to play shows which can suite his back vocals .And it's crazy how loud his back vocals are.go to a Clapton concert,he have 3 girls on back vox and they are quiet and perfect in the mix

Again, how many people have purchased Prince's material lately and how many fans have spent the last twenty years telling him that his new stuff is crap, and yet they complain that he only plays the hits? It is a business, which means that it is about supply and demand. Prince plays what the market demands so that he can sell tickets. It seems that he is balancing his love of playing live with the need to sell tickets to large audiences.

And while I like Clapton, why would Prince want to be Clapton? Yes, Clapton is a legend and a genius, one of the greatest rock and blues guitar players ever, but his soul component has always been a bit watered down for my tastes so his backing vocals are appealing to an audience that wants the guitar of the blues but not the gospel texture and sensibility of the blues, which is fine for Clapton. Prince, on the other hand, if we check the history, has always embraced his soul/gospel background as much as he embraced this rock and funk background. It is just that in the past it was Prince supplying the soul/gospel flavor with his screams and moans. As he has evolved, so has the manner in which he incorporates the various sounds of his background. Thus, he is not Clapton, not trying to be Clapton, and I'm glad that he isn't trying to be Clapton. If I want to see Clapton, I'll go to a Clapton show, which I have on three occasions. As much as I enjoyed all three Clapton shows, I still enjoy what Prince did and does now more than what Clapton did and does now.

1725topp said:

First, I would love a tour where music from 2000 to 2010 dominates the setlist, but I have been one of those rare Kool-Aid drinkers who has celebrated that music. So, while I don't disagree that Prince has been playing mostly hits, I would at least like to have those people who have been saying that "Prince has lost it or has not produced quality music since blah, blah, blah," to admit that it is hypocritical to bemoan how bad his past twenty-year output has been and then bemoan that all he plays are the hits.

No it isn't. I simply use both as proof that Prince is stuck in a rut.

To be clear, I'm not directing my response at you, per se, but why is it so difficult for so many so-called Prince fans to see how their constant negativity along with low sells affect what he plays live?

Yeah, it's the few dozen realist at the Org that have caused Prince's low sales , not the fact that the music is rubbish.

And he always consults me before touring.

So, again, I don't refute that Prince has been playing mostly the hits since ONA, but it is not because he is coasting. It's what he must do to sell tickets.

No, he is coasting. That's why his current output is rubbish, both on record and in concert.

Additionally, I don't think that the org is the one place Prince checks before he makes his decisions, but maybe if there was a real organized effort (which I know is emotionally difficult for some because of Prince's past negative actions toward fansites) by the org, MoQuake, and others of enough fans to push for the next tour to be of smaller venues where he plays those rare and new songs.

Why doesn't he play them at aftershows? See, that is how shitty his current output is.

Dr FB (who apparently may not be insulted according to TPTB on the Org -- must not upset Prince's entourage I guess) promised that fans were allowed to pick the songs for the Aussie tour, didn't he?

But, seriously, I'm not against a coordinated effort between fansites to say to Prince that his diehard fans want something else. Then, the question for him--along with the notion of him even considering the idea from fansites--will be how financially feasible a small-venue, no-hits tour will be.

Hilarious. "Prince is the top earner of the concert industry. But he cannot afford to do a tour of smaller venues playing not the hits because that would be financial disaster."

But, let me end on this note: I want to hear "Colonized Mind," "Dance 4 Me," "Ol' Skool Company" "No More Candy 4 U," "Valentina," "Feel Better...," "Crimson & Clover," "Fury," "3121," "Love," "Lolita," "Get on the Boat," "Guitar," and all of Rainbow Children, Musicology, and 20Ten, but how many others on this site want a show with mostly these songs? It's one thing to talk the talk, but who's willing to walk the walk and pay the high-ass ticket price just for these songs,...with a long-ass encore of "Purple Rain," of course?

Please point me to the point in the 1980s where Prince gave a shit about what his concert audiences wanted? Isn't it funny how Prince most celebrated tours -- the 1980s ones and TGE -- are the ones where HE did whatever the fuck he wanted? Or rather: where he had the balls to have confidence in his current material?

1725topp said:

thebanishedone said:

I'm affraid Bart is right about this.Prince plays the samesongs on aftershows.I don't know what happened to Prince.is he tired,did he lost his muse? Maybe some fans didn't like Rainbow Children era but Prince was on fire.Every aftershow he played was amazing with some of the best and most virtuoso performance by Prince and his band. He did great aftershows in 2004 and 2007 ,now days he plays Let's Work and Cream at his aftershows.how lame is that.Is Prince bored with the music or he tries to play shows which can suite his back vocals .And it's crazy how loud his back vocals are.go to a Clapton concert,he have 3 girls on back vox and they are quiet and perfect in the mix

Again, how many people have purchased Prince's material lately and how many fans have spent the last twenty years telling him that his new stuff is crap, and yet they complain that he only plays the hits? It is a business, which means that it is about supply and demand. Prince plays what the market demands so that he can sell tickets. It seems that he is balancing his love of playing live with the need to sell tickets to large audiences.

Which part of the word AFTERSHOW is too fucking hard for you to comprehend? READ what he wote.

And while I like Clapton, why would Prince want to be Clapton? Yes, Clapton is a legend and a genius, one of the greatest rock and blues guitar players ever, but his soul component has always been a bit watered down for my tastes so his backing vocals are appealing to an audience that wants the guitar of the blues but not the gospel texture and sensibility of the blues, which is fine for Clapton. Prince, on the other hand, if we check the history, has always embraced his soul/gospel background as much as he embraced this rock and funk background. It is just that in the past it was Prince supplying the soul/gospel flavor with his screams and moans. As he has evolved, so has the manner in which he incorporates the various sounds of his background. Thus, he is not Clapton, not trying to be Clapton, and I'm glad that he isn't trying to be Clapton. If I want to see Clapton, I'll go to a Clapton show, which I have on three occasions. As much as I enjoyed all three Clapton shows, I still enjoy what Prince did and does now more than what Clapton did and does now.

Sigh... I'm sorry, but five minutes of "put ya handz up" has got ZILCH to do with any kind of music. That's lame-ass audinece participation shit that is used to hide the fact that what's actually happening is musically null and void. That shit didn't happen in the 1980s because Prince was too busy PLAYING ACTUAL SONGS instead of "jamz".

TBO didn't say shit about Prince needing to be Clapton. That's you once again not reading what was written.

i remember being at the gold tour where he had the balls to live by his word and play the stuff he believed in. fans were walking out in droves as their expectations for the hits to be played weren't being met. "yes" i thought "fuck them, this is exciting, divisive, rock n fucking roll. shed the wishy washy fans, build something new, i'm with u"

fast forward to wembley 98. i'm excited for a show that continues that bloody mindedness, what does he play? cabaret versions of delirious, lets work...purple fucking rain.

its been that way since, (TRC and ONA excepted), both on record and live, no edge.

At the core of our disagreement is that you think that Prince's latest output (whatever the latest number of years for you) and concerts are of poor quality, and I don't. I love what he has produced from 2000 to 2010 even though I have been a Prince fan since 1980. However, the biggest difference between me and you is that I don't think that being mean-spirited and malicious makes me right while you think that being mean-spirited and insulting somehow enhances your argument. So, be mean and flippant all you want; it doesn't make you right. It actually only highlights the flaws in your argument.

*

BartVanHemelen said: Hilarious. "Prince is the top earner of the concert industry. But he cannot afford to do a tour of smaller venues playing not the hits because that would be financial disaster."

*

The vast majority of the people attending Prince's tours are casual fans who mostly only know his eighties work. Or, do you think that the majority of the people attending Prince's tours know and like his music post-1995? Now, if you would read what I wrote, I did not say that Prince would go broke (as in lose all his personal money) if he toured smaller venues featuring post-1998 music, but the question I raised (as in asked not made an assertion) is would it be financially feasible for him to do so. Now, it could be that Prince has a number or a bottom line in his head that makes it "worth his while" to tour. So, a smaller venue tour featuring post-1998 music may not be feasible to him because it may not earn what he desires to earn with a tour. Be that as it may, it does not mean that he is stuck in a rut or that he has produced low quality work; it simply means that Prince, at this age, has decided that while touring is fun it must also earn him a certain amount. We all have things we like doing, but if we do them as a way to earn a living then there is a certain amount that is needed for us to do them, no matter how much we love doing them. Thus, I never said that touring smaller venues with post-1998 material “would be financial disaster.” I asked if it would be financially feasible to do so, and the answer to that is based on what Prince deems as “financially feasible” and is not based on him being in a rut or having lost it.

*

BartVanHemelen said: Please point me to the point in the 1980s where Prince gave a shit about what his concert audiences wanted? Isn't it funny how Prince most celebrated tours -- the 1980s ones and TGE -- are the ones where HE did whatever the fuck he wanted? Or rather: where he had the balls to have confidence in his current material?

*

Keep in mind that Prince wasn't financing (paying the upfront costs) those tours of the eighties. Additionally, even for Dirty Mind and Controversy, Prince was receiving critical acclaim (moreso for DM than Controversy) even if the sales were low so it was a combination that Prince loved the current/new music (as he was playing what was in his heart and mind) and the new/current music was being received favorably by the so-called critics, the black community (black radio except for Dirty Mind), and by chart positions. Since 1995, there has been little to no radio play of his new work, no charting of the work, and no grassroots love for his new work (by grassroots I mean his so-called diehard fanbase, which was the black community early in his career but that has evolved to be more represented by a small but actively loud online international base). So, now that he is financing these tours or having to partner with sponsors to coordinate and market these tours, it is plausible that he certainly feels some type of financial onus to sell tickets and please the majority of the crowd, which means to play the hits because, again, the vast majority of the people coming have little to no clue about his post 1998 material. And while I don't know how crushing the poorly attended and poorly critiqued Lovesexy tour experience was to him, it certainly had some effect as he stated during the Nude Tour, "People don't want to pay a lot of money to hear songs they don't know." Possibly the Lovesexy tour experience taught him a business lesson that he never forgot—that one must balance one’s love with sound business. And Prince may be “Batshit Crazy,” but he has also managed to avoid becoming completely broke even if he has made some bad business decisions. So, if the new songs are not on the radio and there is no clamor for those new songs from his grassroots or diehard fans, then the unscientific research says to any businessman that the demand is for him to supply the hits. So those "balls" or "confidence" to which you allude are always more powerful and assertive when the financial onus isn't on you and when you have radio, critics, and a grassroots following telling you that they like what you are doing. Yet, I think that he has demonstrated having “balls” and “confidence” by continuing to produce the type of albums that he wants to produce with lyrical content and music that he desires and playing them live for TV promotion despite the negative reviews and despite his so-called diehard fans bemoaning his output for the past twenty years. And personally, as in my own personal aesthetic tastes, while the TGE tour had great musicianship and passion, it felt incoherent or fragmented to me and would have been better in much smaller venues rather than in arenas.

*

BartVanHemelen said: Sigh... I'm sorry, but five minutes of "put ya handz up" has got ZILCH to do with any kind of music. That's lame-ass audinece participation shit that is used to hide the fact that what's actually happening is musically null and void. That shit didn't happen in the 1980s because Prince was too busy PLAYING ACTUAL SONGS instead of "jamz". TBO didn't say shit about Prince needing to be Clapton. That's you once again not reading what was written.

*

Again, we disagree on what is and isn't lame. Call and response is an ancient aspect of entertainment. Done well it creates energy for the artists as well as the audience, but done poorly or overdone it limits the performance. I don’t think that Prince overuses the call and response aspect, and his interaction with Shelby, the band, and the audience is often funny and moving. On the other hand, some dude standing in one spot playing his guitar with his head down for an hour would bore me to tears unless the playing was so phenomenal that it took the record to places and heights of which I couldn’t have conceived before hearing it live. Hence, most pure rock bands bore me to tears after about forty minutes with their lack of showmanship as most are not talented enough to do anymore live with the music than it is on the record. Clearly, Prince is no longer appealing to your aesthetic tastes, which may mean that you should embrace somebody else who appeals to your current aesthetic rather than wasting your time complaining or bemoaning that he should do something else. It just doesn't make sense to me that Prince has been so terrible to many of you for so long yet you all continue to come to a "fansite" to discuss how terrible he is. If you want something else other than what Prince has been doing for the past (state your own number) of years, why not go enjoy something or somebody else? Because, unlike you, I love his output from 2000 - 2010 and see his concerts as a reflection of the audience that is purchasing the tickets. And, yes, to say that Prince is lacking or flawed in some aspect and then to cite someone else as not being lacking or flawed in the same aspect is, in fact, to infer that Prince should be more like that to which you are comparing him. So to say that Prince’s backing vocals are flawed and then compare them to Clapton’s backing vocals as the standard of what backing vocals should be or to say this is the type of backing vocals that one likes is, indeed, to suggest that Prince’s backing vocals or shows should be more like Clapton’s backing vocals or shows. So, it's not about me not reading or not understanding what I have read; it is about people writing what they mean or being honest enough to admit to what they mean. It seems, based on your comments, that many have these aesthetic boxes for Prince, and when he refuses to be confined aesthetically, then he must have lost it or is in a rut or is coasting. So, it's cool for Prince to do his own thing when it pleases you, but it's not cool for Prince to do his own thing when it displeases you? So, by definition, Prince only has "balls" or "confidence" when he is doing something that you like, and when he doesn’t do something that you like he doesn’t’ have “balls” or “confidence”?

1725topp said:

At the core of our disagreement is that you think that Prince's latest output (whatever the latest number of years for you) and concerts are of poor quality, and I don't. I love what he has produced from 2000 to 2010 even though I have been a Prince fan since 1980. However, the biggest difference between me and you is that I don't think that being mean-spirited and malicious makes me right while you think that being mean-spirited and insulting somehow enhances your argument. So, be mean and flippant all you want; it doesn't make you right. It actually only highlights the flaws in your argument.

*

BartVanHemelen said: Hilarious. "Prince is the top earner of the concert industry. But he cannot afford to do a tour of smaller venues playing not the hits because that would be financial disaster."

*

The vast majority of the people attending Prince's tours are casual fans who mostly only know his eighties work. Or, do you think that the majority of the people attending Prince's tours know and like his music post-1995? Now, if you would read what I wrote, I did not say that Prince would go broke (as in lose all his personal money) if he toured smaller venues featuring post-1998 music, but the question I raised (as in asked not made an assertion) is would it be financially feasible for him to do so. Now, it could be that Prince has a number or a bottom line in his head that makes it "worth his while" to tour. So, a smaller venue tour featuring post-1998 music may not be feasible to him because it may not earn what he desires to earn with a tour. Be that as it may, it does not mean that he is stuck in a rut or that he has produced low quality work; it simply means that Prince, at this age, has decided that while touring is fun it must also earn him a certain amount. We all have things we like doing, but if we do them as a way to earn a living then there is a certain amount that is needed for us to do them, no matter how much we love doing them. Thus, I never said that touring smaller venues with post-1998 material “would be financial disaster.” I asked if it would be financially feasible to do so, and the answer to that is based on what Prince deems as “financially feasible” and is not based on him being in a rut or having lost it.

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BartVanHemelen said: Please point me to the point in the 1980s where Prince gave a shit about what his concert audiences wanted? Isn't it funny how Prince most celebrated tours -- the 1980s ones and TGE -- are the ones where HE did whatever the fuck he wanted? Or rather: where he had the balls to have confidence in his current material?

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Keep in mind that Prince wasn't financing (paying the upfront costs) those tours of the eighties. Additionally, even for Dirty Mind and Controversy, Prince was receiving critical acclaim (moreso for DM than Controversy) even if the sales were low so it was a combination that Prince loved the current/new music (as he was playing what was in his heart and mind) and the new/current music was being received favorably by the so-called critics, the black community (black radio except for Dirty Mind), and by chart positions. Since 1995, there has been little to no radio play of his new work, no charting of the work, and no grassroots love for his new work (by grassroots I mean his so-called diehard fanbase, which was the black community early in his career but that has evolved to be more represented by a small but actively loud online international base). So, now that he is financing these tours or having to partner with sponsors to coordinate and market these tours, it is plausible that he certainly feels some type of financial onus to sell tickets and please the majority of the crowd, which means to play the hits because, again, the vast majority of the people coming have little to no clue about his post 1998 material. And while I don't know how crushing the poorly attended and poorly critiqued Lovesexy tour experience was to him, it certainly had some effect as he stated during the Nude Tour, "People don't want to pay a lot of money to hear songs they don't know." Possibly the Lovesexy tour experience taught him a business lesson that he never forgot—that one must balance one’s love with sound business. And Prince may be “Batshit Crazy,” but he has also managed to avoid becoming completely broke even if he has made some bad business decisions. So, if the new songs are not on the radio and there is no clamor for those new songs from his grassroots or diehard fans, then the unscientific research says to any businessman that the demand is for him to supply the hits. So those "balls" or "confidence" to which you allude are always more powerful and assertive when the financial onus isn't on you and when you have radio, critics, and a grassroots following telling you that they like what you are doing. Yet, I think that he has demonstrated having “balls” and “confidence” by continuing to produce the type of albums that he wants to produce with lyrical content and music that he desires and playing them live for TV promotion despite the negative reviews and despite his so-called diehard fans bemoaning his output for the past twenty years. And personally, as in my own personal aesthetic tastes, while the TGE tour had great musicianship and passion, it felt incoherent or fragmented to me and would have been better in much smaller venues rather than in arenas.

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BartVanHemelen said: Sigh... I'm sorry, but five minutes of "put ya handz up" has got ZILCH to do with any kind of music. That's lame-ass audinece participation shit that is used to hide the fact that what's actually happening is musically null and void. That shit didn't happen in the 1980s because Prince was too busy PLAYING ACTUAL SONGS instead of "jamz". TBO didn't say shit about Prince needing to be Clapton. That's you once again not reading what was written.

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Again, we disagree on what is and isn't lame. Call and response is an ancient aspect of entertainment. Done well it creates energy for the artists as well as the audience, but done poorly or overdone it limits the performance. I don’t think that Prince overuses the call and response aspect, and his interaction with Shelby, the band, and the audience is often funny and moving. On the other hand, some dude standing in one spot playing his guitar with his head down for an hour would bore me to tears unless the playing was so phenomenal that it took the record to places and heights of which I couldn’t have conceived before hearing it live. Hence, most pure rock bands bore me to tears after about forty minutes with their lack of showmanship as most are not talented enough to do anymore live with the music than it is on the record. Clearly, Prince is no longer appealing to your aesthetic tastes, which may mean that you should embrace somebody else who appeals to your current aesthetic rather than wasting your time complaining or bemoaning that he should do something else. It just doesn't make sense to me that Prince has been so terrible to many of you for so long yet you all continue to come to a "fansite" to discuss how terrible he is. If you want something else other than what Prince has been doing for the past (state your own number) of years, why not go enjoy something or somebody else? Because, unlike you, I love his output from 2000 - 2010 and see his concerts as a reflection of the audience that is purchasing the tickets. And, yes, to say that Prince is lacking or flawed in some aspect and then to cite someone else as not being lacking or flawed in the same aspect is, in fact, to infer that Prince should be more like that to which you are comparing him. So to say that Prince’s backing vocals are flawed and then compare them to Clapton’s backing vocals as the standard of what backing vocals should be or to say this is the type of backing vocals that one likes is, indeed, to suggest that Prince’s backing vocals or shows should be more like Clapton’s backing vocals or shows. So, it's not about me not reading or not understanding what I have read; it is about people writing what they mean or being honest enough to admit to what they mean. It seems, based on your comments, that many have these aesthetic boxes for Prince, and when he refuses to be confined aesthetically, then he must have lost it or is in a rut or is coasting. So, it's cool for Prince to do his own thing when it pleases you, but it's not cool for Prince to do his own thing when it displeases you? So, by definition, Prince only has "balls" or "confidence" when he is doing something that you like, and when he doesn’t do something that you like he doesn’t’ have “balls” or “confidence”?

Well said. 1725topp- Prince also didn't make you shut down your fan site. Thus, you aren't bitter.

I enjoyed your posts 1725topp.

I think the MAIN problem is his isolation. Maybe he did it to himself, maybe we did it to him. This isolation has caused an issue of only being inspired by 1) Jesus --there seems to be very little music in Jesus--, 2) his own music, 3) people who are inspired by him to play music like his. It's a cycle of musical influence that looks like a snake eating it's tail.

I can understand if he isolates because he doesn't seem to trust people. He doesn't seem to want to (or be able to) just "hang out" and meet new people. That's why people think he's stuck in a rut or "stale". I'm afraid it makes him genuinely out of touch with the directions that modern music is going but, then again, shy people do tend to stay in their comfort zone and who are we to demand anything of him? Don't we love that he's so stubborn and aloof? Don't we love that he puts out what no one else does?

I also think that so much sex has drained from the music over the years. It's still there, of course, but it's not the framework for his career anymore. He's already burst through that wall like the Kool-Aid pitcher. Then he kicked around some of the bricks for awhile. Now his priorities have changed as he's gotten older, just as everyone's do. We should grant him the same respect we grant ourselves and our friends as they change, and appreciate him for the man he is now. Allow the man to play the music he wants because we want him to be happy, don't we? He has had PLENTY of time to figure out what kind of music he has the most fun playing and we should assume he means it when he says "put yo hands up"! It's how he communicates! Listen to him!

ON THE SAME HAND....

I really TRULY believe that rejecting the internet is one of the biggest mistakes he has made. He is a miser when it comes to his gift to the world. I'm afraid future generations will not know who he is because the world is changing and he refuses to accept it. It makes me SO SAD. Music careers are now built or broken on Youtube! People "share" with each other and become fans of things they otherwise would never have heard. Some kid may hear "Little Red Corvette" on the radio and not be impressed ,but what about "The Greatest Guitar Solo Ever", While My Guitar Gently Weeps on Youtube?! I think everyone who has seen Batman should be able to enjoy the campy Batdance video!

The man has been nearly around the world [in a day] with musical styles and could really teach that world a lot through his ever-evolving relationship with music. If only his relationship with the information age would ever-evolve.

living4love said:

I also think that so much sex has drained from the music over the years.

Really? I can think of several and several more examples that display this hasn't happened

skywalker said:

living4love said:

I also think that so much sex has drained from the music over the years.

Really? I can think of several and several more examples that display this hasn't happened

I don't really think anyone needs examples because I didn't say the sex wasn't there anymore. I just implied that there isn't as much. I bring it up because a lot of his fans ARE fans because of the way he made them feel with his sexually charged performances and persona and might feel slighted that they don't have the same "relationship" with him now that they did then and have to rely on a Prince from the past to get those feelings back.

As a whole, I feel he went from "all i wanna do is make you quiver" to "lets walk toward jesus hand in hand". In general. I'm not saying there's no quivering now and I'm not saying that there was no jesus then.

living4love said:

I think the MAIN problem is his isolation. Maybe he did it to himself, maybe we did it to him. This isolation has caused an issue of only being inspired by 1) Jesus --there seems to be very little music in Jesus--, 2) his own music, 3) people who are inspired by him to play music like his. It's a cycle of musical influence that looks like a snake eating it's tail.

I can understand if he isolates because he doesn't seem to trust people. He doesn't seem to want to (or be able to) just "hang out" and meet new people. That's why people think he's stuck in a rut or "stale". I'm afraid it makes him genuinely out of touch with the directions that modern music is going but, then again, shy people do tend to stay in their comfort zone and who are we to demand anything of him? Don't we love that he's so stubborn and aloof? Don't we love that he puts out what no one else does?

I also think that so much sex has drained from the music over the years. It's still there, of course, but it's not the framework for his career anymore. He's already burst through that wall like the Kool-Aid pitcher. Then he kicked around some of the bricks for awhile. Now his priorities have changed as he's gotten older, just as everyone's do. We should grant him the same respect we grant ourselves and our friends as they change, and appreciate him for the man he is now. Allow the man to play the music he wants because we want him to be happy, don't we? He has had PLENTY of time to figure out what kind of music he has the most fun playing and we should assume he means it when he says "put yo hands up"! It's how he communicates! Listen to him!

ON THE SAME HAND....

I really TRULY believe that rejecting the internet is one of the biggest mistakes he has made. He is a miser when it comes to his gift to the world. I'm afraid future generations will not know who he is because the world is changing and he refuses to accept it. It makes me SO SAD. Music careers are now built or broken on Youtube! People "share" with each other and become fans of things they otherwise would never have heard. Some kid may hear "Little Red Corvette" on the radio and not be impressed ,but what about "The Greatest Guitar Solo Ever", While My Guitar Gently Weeps on Youtube?! I think everyone who has seen Batman should be able to enjoy the campy Batdance video!

The man has been nearly around the world [in a day] with musical styles and could really teach that world a lot through his ever-evolving relationship with music. If only his relationship with the information age would ever-evolve.

I realize that I spoke waaaaay too soon about him being isolated and about what kind of people he surrounds himself with. I don't know any of them and I don't know where he hangs out.

But, oh, how I wish I did.

Graycap23 said:

AvengingToxic said:

Prince is like Axl Rose.

Seriously, quit fucking around with bullshit and get back to the formula that works.

Works 4 whom?

The fans, with wads of cash to spend.

living4love said: This isolation has caused an issue of only being inspired by 1) Jesus --there seems to be very little music in Jesus--,

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While I agree that Prince can use the internet in a much more effective manner to promote or archive his legacy, I disagree wholeheartedly that there seems to be very little [quality, passionate, or inspirational] music in Jesus. First, as a Prince fan since 1980, I rank "Colonized Mind" as one of my top ten favorite Prince songs, with very little being more passionate or electric than it. Secondly, as someone who was raised listening to traditional and contemporary gospel and praise music, the musicianship of the black church is far superior to that on secular radio and most of what's in secular music. Remember, black popular music (blues, soul, r&b, jazz, and funk) has its roots in the black church, and so much of the language and musical technique and structure of black secular music come from there, and, as we know, it still has a great influence on white rock.

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living4love said: a lot of his fans ARE fans because of the way he made them feel with his sexually charged performances and persona and might feel slighted that they don't have the same "relationship" with him now that they did then and have to rely on a Prince from the past to get those feelings back. As a whole, I feel he went from "all i wanna do is make you quiver" to "lets walk toward jesus hand in hand". In general. I'm not saying there's no quivering now and I'm not saying that there was no jesus then.

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Yes, but doesn’t this prove that the issues that many Prince fans have with Prince is more about their personal tastes and desires rather than Prince having lost it, or being stale, or stuck in a rut? When people say Prince has lost his edge or that Prince has no passion or that Prince is more like an oldie Vegas act, it seems to mean that they want Prince to discuss, promote, and celebrate their lifestyles, which may be anti or counter to the mainstream or traditional Christian values that they find oppressive and antiquated; thus, they feel betrayed by Prince. And because Prince seems to be raining on their parade or because they perceive him as being hypocritical for denouncing what he once promoted, they use that to say that he’s lost his passion or edge when I perceive him has having just as much passion and edge as before; it’s just that his passion is for something different as he attempts to be what he perceives as more responsible and mature while the disappointed fans perceive him as having less passion and having lost it simply because he seems to be no longer interested in promoting or celebrating what he once did.

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living4love said: Now his priorities have changed as he's gotten older, just as everyone's do. We should grant him the same respect we grant ourselves and our friends as they change, and appreciate him for the man he is now. Allow the man to play the music he wants because we want him to be happy, don't we? He has had PLENTY of time to figure out what kind of music he has the most fun playing and we should assume he means it when he says "put yo hands up"! It's how he communicates! Listen to him!

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I agree with you here, and would only add that those who do not like this new direction or those who have not liked what he has being doing for the past twenty years would be better served if they found an artists who was making the art that they liked rather than spending the last twenty years bemoaning Prince’s output.