Efan said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

So is this an example? Because I've always thought there were two different things going on in this--one with her hands and one with her feet.

I think that wouldn't be polyrhythm because the underlying kickdrum pattern is still on the same rhythm even if it's hitting in a unique pattern. You can still clap to it on the 2 and 4.

cool, as a musician fascinating. African tribal beats are so rich, african music period, having known so many classical music snobs it's good to know that over the long haul african music will have made a bigger impression in America and in the world.

petes2 said:

cool, as a musician fascinating. African tribal beats are so rich, african music period, having known so many classical music snobs it's good to know that over the long haul african music will have made a bigger impression in America and in the world.

African music --> Negro spirituals --> | blues --> rock and roll --> gospel (sub category) --> jazz --> Rhythm and blues --> soul --> funk --> hip hop

African based music has truly done it all.

smoothcriminal12 said:

petes2 said:

cool, as a musician fascinating. African tribal beats are so rich, african music period, having known so many classical music snobs it's good to know that over the long haul african music will have made a bigger impression in America and in the world.

African music --> Negro spirituals --> | blues --> rock and roll --> gospel (sub category) --> jazz --> Rhythm and blues --> soul --> funk --> hip hop

African based music has truly done it all.

Truly has, it just took over, there is a reason lots of people call the height of european music "boring" (not to say it was totally useless) African music is by far more varied and richer, and the offshoots we got on this side of the world changed music history.

petes2 said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

African music --> Negro spirituals --> | blues --> rock and roll --> gospel (sub category) --> jazz --> Rhythm and blues --> soul --> funk --> hip hop

African based music has truly done it all.

Truly has, it just took over, there is a reason lots of people call the height of european music "boring" (not to say it was totally useless) African music is by far more varied and richer, and the offshoots we got on this side of the world changed music history.

I can't imagine the 20th century without it. Most of our 20th and 21st century classics would cease to exist.

I think the album version of "Around The World in a Day" would fit this description.

The outtake version seems to blend well - and sounds like a conventional pop song, while the album version's rhythm and drums are purposely opposite eachother. I actually like both for these reasons. The latter(no pun intended) is especially unconventional in its approach. But that's the ATWIAD album in a nutshell right? Quirky and heartfelt...and bittersweet. Will always love Around the World in a Day.

mmmm

smoothcriminal12 said:

petes2 said:

cool, as a musician fascinating. African tribal beats are so rich, african music period, having known so many classical music snobs it's good to know that over the long haul african music will have made a bigger impression in America and in the world.

African music --> Negro spirituals --> | blues --> rock and roll --> gospel (sub category) --> jazz --> Rhythm and blues --> soul --> funk --> hip hop

African based music has truly done it all.

I think it's funny the chart mentions "Disco". I thought it only came from the abuse of coke.

And who else thinks Prince should have his own branch? Somewhere between rock, funk, sould and gospel.

XNY said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

African music --> Negro spirituals --> | blues --> rock and roll --> gospel (sub category) --> jazz --> Rhythm and blues --> soul --> funk --> hip hop

African based music has truly done it all.

I think it's funny the chart mentions "Disco". I thought it only came from the abuse of coke.

And who else thinks Prince should have his own branch? Somewhere between rock, funk, sould and gospel.

No.

XNY said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

African music --> Negro spirituals --> | blues --> rock and roll --> gospel (sub category) --> jazz --> Rhythm and blues --> soul --> funk --> hip hop

African based music has truly done it all.

I think it's funny the chart mentions "Disco". I thought it only came from the abuse of coke.

And who else thinks Prince should have his own branch? Somewhere between rock, funk, sould and gospel.

anyone who remembers the disco era remembers how popular and unpopular it got so fast. Disco is perverted funk for white people. Some great songs no doubt from that time. I think Sylvester was a disco genius who had really, really gospelly music disquised as disco. As far as Prince and his own branch, well, he's done a lot but he's never really been what I'd call a pioneer of the impact of James, Elvis, Sly or Jimi.

and I have to say, lots of the rhythms I hear from africa and from the carribean or south america really make our standard stuff sound like play time. It's different when a song has to be put on top though so it would be too much rhythm. I imagine that rhythm developed way way earlier than tone.

petes2 said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

African music --> Negro spirituals --> | blues --> rock and roll --> gospel (sub category) --> jazz --> Rhythm and blues --> soul --> funk --> hip hop

African based music has truly done it all.

Truly has, it just took over, there is a reason lots of people call the height of european music "boring" (not to say it was totally useless) African music is by far more varied and richer, and the offshoots we got on this side of the world changed music history.

That's not really a true statement. I think you'll find that "European" music (particularly from the Renaissance) was extremely important in shaping the future of music and had just as big an impact as any other roots music. And don't forget that there's even richer pickings to be had when you start looking in to Asian music. Indian music in particular is marvellously complex - quarter tones, obscure timings and meters. And, Euro music didn't escape Africa's influence - don't forget that Europe sits on top of North Africa and also next door to Asia - the very reason that Europe led the way in classical music in the Middle Ages is because it had so much influence on its doorstep.

African music was actually fairly simplistic in origin, especially in comparison to Asian music and instruments - it was African music's evolution in the States, a consequence of well-known social hardships, that certainly gave birth to modern, western music.

Mindflux said:

petes2 said:

Truly has, it just took over, there is a reason lots of people call the height of european music "boring" (not to say it was totally useless) African music is by far more varied and richer, and the offshoots we got on this side of the world changed music history.

That's not really a true statement. I think you'll find that "European" music (particularly from the Renaissance) was extremely important in shaping the future of music and had just as big an impact as any other roots music. And don't forget that there's even richer pickings to be had when you start looking in to Asian music. Indian music in particular is marvellously complex - quarter tones, obscure timings and meters. And, Euro music didn't escape Africa's influence - don't forget that Europe sits on top of North Africa and also next door to Asia - the very reason that Europe led the way in classical music in the Middle Ages is because it had so much influence on its doorstep.

African music was actually fairly simplistic in origin, especially in comparison to Asian music and instruments - it was African music's evolution in the States, a consequence of well-known social hardships, that certainly gave birth to modern, western music.

Thank you, Mindflux!

Mindflux said:

petes2 said:

Truly has, it just took over, there is a reason lots of people call the height of european music "boring" (not to say it was totally useless) African music is by far more varied and richer, and the offshoots we got on this side of the world changed music history.

That's not really a true statement. I think you'll find that "European" music (particularly from the Renaissance) was extremely important in shaping the future of music and had just as big an impact as any other roots music. And don't forget that there's even richer pickings to be had when you start looking in to Asian music. Indian music in particular is marvellously complex - quarter tones, obscure timings and meters. And, Euro music didn't escape Africa's influence - don't forget that Europe sits on top of North Africa and also next door to Asia - the very reason that Europe led the way in classical music in the Middle Ages is because it had so much influence on its doorstep.

African music was actually fairly simplistic in origin, especially in comparison to Asian music and instruments - it was African music's evolution in the States, a consequence of well-known social hardships, that certainly gave birth to modern, western music.

There's some great classical music no doubt. And I know asian music and indian music had different tones and so forth. Tonally, you could be correct, but rhythmically, which is where so much of our music really comes from, Africa is there not only in the drums but in the bass, guitar,etc.., And today, with hip hop (whether you like it or not) rhythm has totally taken over even the vocals. And I'm sure you know that Black Americans took it all to another level with the "blue" notes of blues and dense chords of jazz. I'm just saying in a eurocentric world, Africa won out, I don't think that can be argued even in todays music.

Maybe this counts as polyrhythm... whenever he puts a delay effect timed to triplets or some other odd grouping (by the way, is dub the first music that did this?)

an example is Do Me Baby, the synths at 6:14-ish play 5 over 2, I think.

but generally yeah, I don't think Prince does a lot of polyrhythm, so this list is gonna be tiny. Let's ask instead for a list of prince songs that don't have snares on the 2 and 4, hah.

petes2 said:

Mindflux said:

That's not really a true statement. I think you'll find that "European" music (particularly from the Renaissance) was extremely important in shaping the future of music and had just as big an impact as any other roots music. And don't forget that there's even richer pickings to be had when you start looking in to Asian music. Indian music in particular is marvellously complex - quarter tones, obscure timings and meters. And, Euro music didn't escape Africa's influence - don't forget that Europe sits on top of North Africa and also next door to Asia - the very reason that Europe led the way in classical music in the Middle Ages is because it had so much influence on its doorstep.

African music was actually fairly simplistic in origin, especially in comparison to Asian music and instruments - it was African music's evolution in the States, a consequence of well-known social hardships, that certainly gave birth to modern, western music.

There's some great classical music no doubt. And I know asian music and indian music had different tones and so forth. Tonally, you could be correct, but rhythmically, which is where so much of our music really comes from, Africa is there not only in the drums but in the bass, guitar,etc.., And today, with hip hop (whether you like it or not) rhythm has totally taken over even the vocals. And I'm sure you know that Black Americans took it all to another level with the "blue" notes of blues and dense chords of jazz. I'm just saying in a eurocentric world, Africa won out, I don't think that can be argued even in todays music.

I dunno man, today's music is a mix of so many different things... blues turns into rock turns into metal which finds its way into lil wayne albums... it doesn't make sense to call that 'african' or 'european' music as if it exclusively came from one continent or the other.

A lot of music today has a rhythmic focus, but for most music, western harmony is still very important. You could say that harmony has been de-emphasized because today's songs typically aren't as harmonically advanced as (insert classical composer here), but today's songs don't use african polyrhythms either... music today is just something different than 'european' and 'african' and 'indian' and so on.

As far as influences go, music draws from all sources, and african music (along with others) has contributed mightily.

fusk said:

petes2 said:

There's some great classical music no doubt. And I know asian music and indian music had different tones and so forth. Tonally, you could be correct, but rhythmically, which is where so much of our music really comes from, Africa is there not only in the drums but in the bass, guitar,etc.., And today, with hip hop (whether you like it or not) rhythm has totally taken over even the vocals. And I'm sure you know that Black Americans took it all to another level with the "blue" notes of blues and dense chords of jazz. I'm just saying in a eurocentric world, Africa won out, I don't think that can be argued even in todays music.

I dunno man, today's music is a mix of so many different things... blues turns into rock turns into metal which finds its way into lil wayne albums... it doesn't make sense to call that 'african' or 'european' music as if it exclusively came from one continent or the other.

A lot of music today has a rhythmic focus, but for most music, western harmony is still very important. You could say that harmony has been de-emphasized because today's songs typically aren't as harmonically advanced as (insert classical composer here), but today's songs don't use african polyrhythms either... music today is just something different than 'european' and 'african' and 'indian' and so on.

As far as influences go, music draws from all sources, and african music (along with others) has contributed mightily.

I'm not and never was a hip hop fan but from what I've read, many, many people credit hip hop for expanding on polyrhythms and I'm only saying it's taken melody completely out of the picture. Now I know there are some chords, arrangements and so forth but the key things about hip hop have always been rhythmic but then that's true of boogie woogie, rock and roll and blues too but just not to that extent. That's what I'm saying, rhythm has gone so far as to kill melody, however you might feel about that.

I'm not a hip-hop or rap fan either. It's true there is rhythm in it, though so much of it is repetitive and I think yes it is sure killing the melody. But speak to those music lovers and they'll say there is melody.

OK I'll jump in... What about the end section of Life Can Be So Nice?

alphachannel said:

OK I'll jump in... What about the end section of Life Can Be So Nice?

I think I know what you're talking about, I always thought it was more a segue into the next song, what was it I wonder you?

petes2 said:

Mindflux said:

That's not really a true statement. I think you'll find that "European" music (particularly from the Renaissance) was extremely important in shaping the future of music and had just as big an impact as any other roots music. And don't forget that there's even richer pickings to be had when you start looking in to Asian music. Indian music in particular is marvellously complex - quarter tones, obscure timings and meters. And, Euro music didn't escape Africa's influence - don't forget that Europe sits on top of North Africa and also next door to Asia - the very reason that Europe led the way in classical music in the Middle Ages is because it had so much influence on its doorstep.

African music was actually fairly simplistic in origin, especially in comparison to Asian music and instruments - it was African music's evolution in the States, a consequence of well-known social hardships, that certainly gave birth to modern, western music.

There's some great classical music no doubt. And I know asian music and indian music had different tones and so forth. Tonally, you could be correct, but rhythmically, which is where so much of our music really comes from, Africa is there not only in the drums but in the bass, guitar,etc.., And today, with hip hop (whether you like it or not) rhythm has totally taken over even the vocals. And I'm sure you know that Black Americans took it all to another level with the "blue" notes of blues and dense chords of jazz. I'm just saying in a eurocentric world, Africa won out, I don't think that can be argued even in todays music.

Thanks for your reply and I do hear what you are saying. As fusk mentions later though, I think there's such a mish-mash and hybridisation of styles and flavours from all over the world that its difficult to say that "this music is because of that music". But, I take on board your points with regard to rhythm and obscuring of melody. That said, it really depends on what you listen to. Most "pop" music is watered down for non-offensive consumption by the masses. Dig deeper and you find the glories and complexities of music are still going strong, in all genres.

petes2 said:

alphachannel said:

OK I'll jump in... What about the end section of Life Can Be So Nice?

I think I know what you're talking about, I always thought it was more a segue into the next song, what was it I wonder you?

Actually it was Venus de Milo and doesn't really serve as a segue. In fact, its a harsh, abrupt ending to LCBSN, like the tape was suddeny stopped! Venus is immediately starts with barely a gap of silence and proves an amazing contrast.

Unfortunately, alphachannel, LCBSN doesn't count, I'm afraid. Yes, it sounds quite frenetic at the end there, but nothing has departed from the original beat, tempo or meter - everything is doing something that's already appeared in the track, its just all brought together at the end. The drumming may well be different, full of fills and flourishes, but it is still tight to the original rhythm.

The only example I can think of might be Dream Factory, but I'd have to go and give it a listen. I've heard quite a few examples in dance and electronica though, especially from the likes of Squarepusher, who I mentioned above. Things like a 4/4 beat being played with 6/8 sequnces and arpeggiations that play over the top which, in time, synch back up again and then waiver back out.

fusk said:

petes2 said:

There's some great classical music no doubt. And I know asian music and indian music had different tones and so forth. Tonally, you could be correct, but rhythmically, which is where so much of our music really comes from, Africa is there not only in the drums but in the bass, guitar,etc.., And today, with hip hop (whether you like it or not) rhythm has totally taken over even the vocals. And I'm sure you know that Black Americans took it all to another level with the "blue" notes of blues and dense chords of jazz. I'm just saying in a eurocentric world, Africa won out, I don't think that can be argued even in todays music.

I dunno man, today's music is a mix of so many different things... blues turns into rock turns into metal which finds its way into lil wayne albums... it doesn't make sense to call that 'african' or 'european' music as if it exclusively came from one continent or the other.

A lot of music today has a rhythmic focus, but for most music, western harmony is still very important. You could say that harmony has been de-emphasized because today's songs typically aren't as harmonically advanced as (insert classical composer here), but today's songs don't use african polyrhythms either... music today is just something different than 'european' and 'african' and 'indian' and so on.

As far as influences go, music draws from all sources, and african music (along with others) has contributed mightily.

The idea that music with its roots in western European music is rhythmically void is nonsense. Has no one here listened to any Italian music from the Renaissance?

Speaking of polyrhythm...

[Edited 5/29/12 5:53am]

not much drumming on the classics you know.

smoothcriminal12 said:

petes2 said:

cool, as a musician fascinating. African tribal beats are so rich, african music period, having known so many classical music snobs it's good to know that over the long haul african music will have made a bigger impression in America and in the world.

African music --> Negro spirituals --> | blues --> rock and roll --> gospel (sub category) --> jazz --> Rhythm and blues --> soul --> funk --> hip hop

African based music has truly done it all.

Rhythmically, yes - that is an absolutely true statement. Harmonically, only jazz has done anything shockingly new and even then the jazz masters were highly influenced by modern classical, (white-as-hell) music. Coltrane, Davis, Dolphy, Monk, etc...

I always say Africa provided the rhythm and the mad scientist European and American crackers provided the harmonic exploration and both share innovations in melody. With the advances in education and idea-sharing made possible in the last 100 years everyone is so musically inbred that it's self-evolving now regardless of culture.

I guess I should say at this point that I love some classical music and there is great music to be found in any style. I've just never fell for the whole cultural superiority thinking that many classical musicians and afficionados go in for. Never liked it, thought it was distasteful and they are often or almost always very insulting to other kinds of music. That kind of thing is bound to put people off. My main point was saying overrall africa has had the greatest impact hands down, that's my opinion and I know there are very healthy dollops of all kinds of other musics in the world today but I believe the roots to what dominates in the world today started in Africa. I just remembered Miles Davis trying to place Prince as a white or black artist saying "when Prince makes love he hears drums and shit not Ravel" or some such thing. That sort of is my sentiment on the mishmash.

petes2 said:

I guess I should say at this point that I love some classical music and there is great music to be found in any style. I've just never fell for the whole cultural superiority thinking that many classical musicians and afficionados go in for. Never liked it, thought it was distasteful and they are often or almost always very insulting to other kinds of music. That kind of thing is bound to put people off. My main point was saying overrall africa has had the greatest impact hands down, that's my opinion and I know there are very healthy dollops of all kinds of other musics in the world today but I believe the roots to what dominates in the world today started in Africa. I just remembered Miles Davis trying to place Prince as a white or black artist saying "when Prince makes love he hears drums and shit not Ravel" or some such thing. That sort of is my sentiment on the mishmash.

Classical music snobs, (or ANY music snob in ANY style) are dipshits. Agreed. Once you can teach it at a university it becomes a dead genre, frozen in time - its qualities quantified and inflexible for eternity. Jazz stopped evolving in any way that a normal human could comprehend, just like modern classical before it. The natural evolution breaks down at some point and musicians are so desparate to evolve and grow they result to math and arbitrary weirdness. That's when the macho competitive aspect starts to strangle your creative instincts. When you try to "out-new" the next guy. That's when the genre/style/whatever becomes an irrelevant museum piece. If normal folks can't understand it, most "musicians" probably won't, either.

steakfinger said:

petes2 said:

I guess I should say at this point that I love some classical music and there is great music to be found in any style. I've just never fell for the whole cultural superiority thinking that many classical musicians and afficionados go in for. Never liked it, thought it was distasteful and they are often or almost always very insulting to other kinds of music. That kind of thing is bound to put people off. My main point was saying overrall africa has had the greatest impact hands down, that's my opinion and I know there are very healthy dollops of all kinds of other musics in the world today but I believe the roots to what dominates in the world today started in Africa. I just remembered Miles Davis trying to place Prince as a white or black artist saying "when Prince makes love he hears drums and shit not Ravel" or some such thing. That sort of is my sentiment on the mishmash.

Classical music snobs, (or ANY music snob in ANY style) are dipshits. Agreed. Once you can teach it at a university it becomes a dead genre, frozen in time - its qualities quantified and inflexible for eternity. Jazz stopped evolving in any way that a normal human could comprehend, just like modern classical before it. The natural evolution breaks down at some point and musicians are so desparate to evolve and grow they result to math and arbitrary weirdness. That's when the macho competitive aspect starts to strangle your creative instincts. When you try to "out-new" the next guy. That's when the genre/style/whatever becomes an irrelevant museum piece. If normal folks can't understand it, most "musicians" probably won't, either.

I hear what you are saying, and I would totally agree that this is what happened in the 20th century. The theoretical "logic" became more important than the music (or the painting or the scupture). The aesthetic took a back seat.

But I certainly wouldn't dismiss stuff in museums or stuff taught in universities as "irrelevant."

steakfinger said:

petes2 said:

I guess I should say at this point that I love some classical music and there is great music to be found in any style. I've just never fell for the whole cultural superiority thinking that many classical musicians and afficionados go in for. Never liked it, thought it was distasteful and they are often or almost always very insulting to other kinds of music. That kind of thing is bound to put people off. My main point was saying overrall africa has had the greatest impact hands down, that's my opinion and I know there are very healthy dollops of all kinds of other musics in the world today but I believe the roots to what dominates in the world today started in Africa. I just remembered Miles Davis trying to place Prince as a white or black artist saying "when Prince makes love he hears drums and shit not Ravel" or some such thing. That sort of is my sentiment on the mishmash.

Classical music snobs, (or ANY music snob in ANY style) are dipshits. Agreed. Once you can teach it at a university it becomes a dead genre, frozen in time - its qualities quantified and inflexible for eternity. Jazz stopped evolving in any way that a normal human could comprehend, just like modern classical before it. The natural evolution breaks down at some point and musicians are so desparate to evolve and grow they result to math and arbitrary weirdness. That's when the macho competitive aspect starts to strangle your creative instincts. When you try to "out-new" the next guy. That's when the genre/style/whatever becomes an irrelevant museum piece. If normal folks can't understand it, most "musicians" probably won't, either.

Like Prince once said "a good song is a good song" for me it's that simple. If a "good song" happens to be a Bach prelude, an Ellington tune or even a Sean Kingston pop hit, it doesn't matter to me. It doesn't have to be great or complex or even all that up my alley for me to appreciate it. I go with how it hits my emotions, if it does that then we're there. I gotta agree with Jazz, it stretched all the way to the limits and I never really liked any of the Bebop stuff or rather just didn't see what was so special about it. It made me feel good when Ray Charles in his biography said about as much (classily not mentioning a coltrane or whoever) about the later jazz.

steakfinger said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

African music --> Negro spirituals --> | blues --> rock and roll --> gospel (sub category) --> jazz --> Rhythm and blues --> soul --> funk --> hip hop

African based music has truly done it all.

Rhythmically, yes - that is an absolutely true statement. Harmonically, only jazz has done anything shockingly new and even then the jazz masters were highly influenced by modern classical, (white-as-hell) music. Coltrane, Davis, Dolphy, Monk, etc...

I always say Africa provided the rhythm and the mad scientist European and American crackers provided the harmonic exploration and both share innovations in melody. With the advances in education and idea-sharing made possible in the last 100 years everyone is so musically inbred that it's self-evolving now regardless of culture.

"Black" music has evolved in fascinating ways since the slaves came here. To me, one of the best aspects of the various black cultures of the diaspora is that, though African traditions are carried on, it is a mixture of the other cultures that black people encountered while after they came here. Same with the genres that have been called "black music".