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Again, it is difficult to have an earnest and meaningful discourse with someone who will assert something in one post and then in the very next post deny what one said. In your most recent post you stated “i am not sure what u are representing when u say i twist his words .. the only reference i made was to prince changing THE CROSS to THE CHRIST,” which means that you are now denying that you stated, “and as for the anecdote about believing in god and trusting u won't die on a plane .. well god exists but god does not control every little human action or thought .. thats garbage .. god isn't gonna save u from that drunk pilot hitting a mountain .. u wanna gamble the odds .. thats your call .. go jump off a cliff and see if 'god' saves u,” to which it seems that you are twisting Prince's words about how to handle or address fear. So, should I believe your second post in which you infer that you never wrote the above statement, or should I believe my lying eyes and what I read in your earlier post? But, I digress.
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Secondly, I guess one can interpret Prince having after hour shows at his rented homes as an act of “flashing his mansions,” but has he not always held after hour shows? Furthermore, for someone who is a control freak like Prince, it would seem natural that over the years the after hour shows would move from venues owned and control by someone else to venues owned, rented, and controlled by him so I don't know how having aftershows or after hour shows where he lives equates to “flashing his mansion.” As for the jewelry, most people, including Prince, are guilty of this sin, which has as much to do with adornment (vanity) as idolatry though Prince could be accused of self-idolatry by having his symbol displayed so prominently on his body as well as in every room where he performs. My only response is he without sin cast the first stone. I'm guessing that you have never worn any type of jewelry: class ring, wedding ring, ear ring, necklace. And if you haven't, I applaud you for being more enlightened and dedicated that most of us. But, most human beings suffer from some amount of vanity as most of us struggle with most of the acts listed as sin by most religions. I don't know how that makes Prince, me, you, or anyone else less serious or committed to our faith. Now, if that makes it difficult for you to take Prince seriously in his faith, I don't have any right to demand that you should take him more seriously. I'm just glad that I am too busy worrying about my personal intellectual and spiritual development to waste time nitpicking the flaws of others "for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God," and I’m too busy worrying about the “log” in my eye to worry about the “twig” in someone else’s eye. And, can you tell me “who suffers when he gets babied like a spoiled brat.” Let me be clear. I understand that in some way we all contribute to world hunger, wars, and the other global and human dysfunction, but I need to know what exactly is Prince doing that is causing people to suffer. I’ve been a Prince fan since 1980; how am I suffering? Could I be misguided by having ingested so much of Prince’s art/ideology into my mind and soul? Have I lessened my financial growth by spending so much money on Prince’s art? These are all possibilities, but they have all been my choice. So, if I do suffer, knowingly or unknowingly, that is my choice and fault, not Prince’s. So, please tell me, who suffers because of Prince?
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I have no idea what you mean when you say “people sell movies with poop jokes all the time so i applaud prince for selling records the same way .. still don't see what it has to do with christ or god.” Are you saying that Prince is singing one thing and living another or that Prince's songs are contradicting or his songs contradict his message? Until I understand this point fully, I can only restate what I said above, which is human beings are complex creatures who struggle with dichotomy daily. Like the poet Horace stated, “Man is controlled by two forces, expending oneself in emotion and regretting it later in logic.” Like everyone else, Prince has certain beliefs, he proclaims those beliefs, and tries his best to live by those beliefs. If he fails, that doesn't make him a hypocrite. One of my favorite uncles, when he would begin to light a cigarette, would stop and say to me and my cousins, “This shit will kill ya. Don’t ever start smoking cigarettes.” Was my uncle being hypocritical or simply hoping to prevent his nephews from beginning a behavior that he regretted that he began and struggled his entire life to stop?
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Finally, you stated “reproduction is pretty hard wired on this planet.” To which I can only reply, no stuff Sherlock; what’s your point? Yes, as I said in my post, sex is a biological activity, which means that humans are “wired” to have sex. However, unlike most other animals on the planet, sexual desire for humans is fueled as much by emotional and psychological reasons as it is by base physical reasons. Humans don’t have a “mating season” unless we agree that once a human becomes a certain age then the rest of one’s life is mating season. So saying that “reproduction is pretty hard wired on this planet” does not refute nor minimize the scientific fact that the sexual activity of human beings is driven by emotional and psychological aspects that in many cases can lead to irresponsible, dangerous, and disastrous events. Are you denying that teenage pregnancy, STDs, and sexual abuse/assault are major global issues? Are you denying that some type of moral education is needed to lessen these three major issues? Yes, “reproduction is pretty hard wired on this planet,” but for human beings emotional, psychological, and (if one accepts it) spiritual neuroses are all having a negative effect on the reproductive wiring, much like the effect of a virus on a computer, and something must be done to lessen or remove these viruses from humanity. And while I believe that Christianity can accomplish this goal, I am not saying that my interpretation or Prince’s interpretation holds the answers, but I am glad that he is willing to say, “hey, in the past I felt and thought one way about sex, and now I view that as irresponsible,” so that we can have a dialogue about it. Again, at least Prince is being honest about his past words, beliefs, and notions on the topic. It’s a shame that others aren’t.
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Rain is wet and sugar is sweet
(I know) Welcome 2 the New Power Generation
Hundalasiliah! I know there is a heaven, I know there is a hell No! - is what Spooky Electric say, it's not OK (No!)
I know there is a devil because he talks so loud No! (People) - is what Spooky Electric say (Tell me, what'd he say?) (No!)
Alright y'all, everybody in the house (Serve it up, Frankie) (Shout - "Ho!") {repeat} Raise your hand up straight in the air (I know) (Put your hand up) {x2} (Say no) (No!) (Say yes) (Yes!) Yeah! If U don't wanna live life under the gun (I know)
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first of all old friends .. eye no is one of my favs .. even tho it gets little love its the tops .. secondly to 1725top .. i have never heard a prince quote about flying in planes .. i was referring to an anecdote in a previous post by a poster, who was probably referring to prince, but i don't know, i was simply responding to the idea presented that we should have faith that god will save us from a plane crash. my point was that that idea takes the notion of god a bit overboard. it was not a reference to prince it was a reference to another posters statement and point of view or idea.
next .. prince acts beyond spoiled .. "who do u love?" flaunting multiple women on his arm like property .. bragging in his songs about how much he has both financially and sexually .. do u listen to prince recent work? .. it is not humble nor does it sound like it comes from a man who appreciates having SO MUCH MORE than most people on this planet .. instead he brags and flaunts it like it is a badge of honor when really it is a disgrace .. u cannot have extreme wealth without poverty on the other end .. it would be like listening to donald trump go on about he cares about poor people while he is standing in one of his luxery hotels that only billionaires can afford to stay in .. prince is a walking male barbie doll .. its beyond spoiled and sorry but i just cant relate
not sure what u mean by the "log in your eye" .. but u seem to think prince is untoucheable but u don't mind spending time critiquing me .. so i don't see your point .. but if we all continue to embrace leaders who flaunt wealth irresponsiblly we will continue to live in a money chasing based society instead of an ethically based civilization .. thus there will always be wars coupled with starvation because it is all based around greed and gluttony .. in this case prince represents the devil talking loudly about how great being rich is and flaunting it instead of listening to that quiet voice of god that tells u that you have taken too much, far more than your fair share. i mean he does not sound anymore christian than those rappers who rap about their money and ho's. sorry but its true and i expect and demand more than that out of prince.
i am also saying prince sells sex the way movies sell fart jokes ..
and i am also saying that the church and people are pretty screwed in the head about sex, i am not sure what ur point is about stds and teenage pregnance, but i don't think prince made any huge strides in reducing either. i still dont see your point but my point is simply that its super funny how big a deal everyone makes sex out to be, prince, the churches, the rappers, but it really doesn't have much more to do with spirituality than say taking a dump .. its more biological than spiritual ..
all in all .. i dig a lot of prince beliefs .. like his veganism and his awareness of some of the bigger puppet masters that oppress most of the human population in to boxed slave labor roles and poverty and war .. but its also like listening to obama act like he cares about people while handing over trillions to the banks and the war profiteers .. its a joke on our intelligence .. and listening to prince act like he cares while flaunting his abundant and over the top gluttonous wealth is kinda nauseating and comes off as insincere and resoundingly not credible .. i would like to see prince project a more humble and modest image. hes the kind of guy who has a new pair of shoes for every day of his LIFE while others are wearing rags .. its just too much selfish self grandizing and not enough reality based choices. | |
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What organized religion isn't based on money, phil. contradictions and teaching people there is something inherently wrong/evil with them that the religion has the answere to?
Prince is African American and the church became a sanctuary for blacks due to slavery. We wouldnt have the music we do today in America if it werent for the black churches preserving and transforming much of it. Clearly he was effected/damaged in childhood by the church "teachings" or he wouldnt be reverting to fundamentalism like this as an adult.
Ive found his sexism and misogyny towards women over the years much harder to stomach at times. But, he has often had very female positive lyrics and images in much of his work too..
Im not sure why people think he is so arrogant and flaunts his wealth. Ive never had that impression. Many of his better songs speak to money being a false value. I generally agree with what Balzac said 'behind every great fortune is a great crime' but in Princes case it seems to me he has worked very hard for what he has and with his talent deserves whatever he has (which I cant say for most other popular musicans). Do we live in an unjust world where wealth is unequally divided-ya of course. But, if Prince gave away all of his money or his shoes would that change it? No way, Dostoyevsky learned that. The system is corrupt and singling him out seems fruitless. Unfortunately, I dont think he is vegan anymore but at least vegetarian? And that is the biggest thing anyone can do daily to reduce resource consumption and promote peace. I'd like to know what his carbon footprint is.
I dont think there is anything wrong with people being interested in body adornment or presenting a certain physical look or personal appearance. All old cultures appreciated beauty and body decoration. The issue becomes how that is manifested in modern times and what resources are used and who determines what is and isnt considered beautiful. I have always been a bit repulsed by him attending fashion shows in Europe with designers who use fur and leather. It was disappointing to see him and his 'protogee' in what looked to be fur (sheep skin) boots . But again on the clothing issue-I think he employs local people in his hometown to make most of his clothes (hence not manufactured using slave labor) and he still lives in MN doesnt he and doesnt seem to lead a jetset lifestyle. I dont know all his personal details but it seems to me compared to most so called celebrities he is a lot more down to earth than most. [Edited 1/25/12 3:53am] | |
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my wife makes my banana purple alot n its pretty spiritual. | |
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Though I'm not a Christian, I love how spiritual he is in his music without being too preachy at the same time, and showing his human sides in it as well. | |
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TrevorAyer said: i have never heard a prince quote about flying in planes .. i was referring to an anecdote in a previous post * My initial, “knee-jerk” response to your statement is “ignorance of the law is no excuse,” and what I mean is that to claim to be a Prince fan or a Prince aficionado but to also claim that you have never read Prince’s anecdote in Rolling Stone about Wendy being afraid to fly seems a bit unbelievable to me. But, none of us can claim to know everything about Prince or to have collected every factoid about Prince so I’m willing to take you at your word that you did not know that the poster was referring to a Prince quote. However, even if you did not know that the anecdote was from a Rolling Stone interview, the manner in which the poster presents the story makes it pretty clear that its Prince’s words. In addition to this, you do twist the words or meaning of the anecdote because the point of the story, no matter whose words they are, is that belief in God should give one a comfort that death is not the final point to our life’s story, and, therefore, our lives should not be controlled by death. So, your point about believing in a God that saves us from evil or foolish acts has absolutely nothing to do with the anecdote. Thus, you are twisting the words or the meaning of the anecdote. I am not saying that your point that it is foolish for one to engage in foolish acts and expect God to save one isn’t valid, but that is not the point of the anecdote, and to infer that it is the point of the anecdote is an act of twisting the words or meaning of the anecdote. Now, it may not have been your intent to twist or misinterpret the meaning of the anecdote, but you did twist and misinterpret the anecdote’s meaning. * TrevorAyer said: prince acts beyond spoiled… prince is a walking male barbie doll * I have never denied that Prince isn’t vain, pompous, or contradictory. My point is that Prince isn’t any more vain, pompous, or contradictory than anyone else. And what evens, balances, or makes his vanity or pompous behavior tolerable or less of an issue for me is that it is balanced with songs about socio-political and spiritual issues as well as acts of charity. Most people fluctuate between the spiritual and the material. Although I am not into luxury cars, I do like American muscle cars. Does my interest in muscle cars make me less spiritual? Additionally, one of my desires is to see more muscle car manufacturers use or develop energy saving technology for muscle cars. That is a dichotomy or contradiction. I like muscle cars even though they have traditionally not been good for the environment, but I also would like to see the manufacturers do a better job of developing the cars in a way that they are more environmentally friendly. We all have these types of contractions (minor and major) in our lives. Thus, I have always liked that Prince does not hide his struggle with human dichotomy. You ask if I’ve listened to his recent work. I’ll ask if you really paid attention to his early work. Remember, Prince is the same dude who would open a show with a spiritual tune, “It won’t be long before the second coming; it won’t be long before all men must learn how to love,” and then spend the next two hours singing about oral sex, masturbation, and incest. Prince didn’t just become a walking contradiction. So, why is it now that people who claim to be life-long fans are bothered by this new contradiction when they were seemingly not bothered by his being a walking contradiction in the past. * TrevorAyer said: u seem to think prince is untoucheable but u don't mind spending time critiquing me * I have criticized Prince during this discussion and during other topics. My point is that you seem to be calling Prince a hypocrite as if he is the only person guilty of contradictory behavior. And, as I said before, I cannot tell you whom to take seriously or whom to believe, but if contradictory behavior is your only means for deciding to believe, trust, or take someone seriously, then there will be very few people that you will be able to take seriously. The great thing about the Christian and Islamic Bibles is that neither attempts to present perfect people, other than Jesus, as a guide for how to live. In fact, most of the people that the Bibles present as men and women of God are quite flawed. Pick any biblical hero, and one will find a quite flawed human being whose only saving grace is one’s desire to learn more about God and one’s attempt to be better today than one was yesterday. So, my critique of you is only that you seem to hold Prince to a higher standard than other people. However, if you hold all people to that same standard of perfection, then I am only glad that I am not one of your family members or friends because I would hate to spend my life being judged by your standards. Based solely on this discussion, it must be exhausting or confining to be your friend. * TrevorAyer said: if we all continue to embrace leaders who flaunt wealth irresponsiblly we will continue to live in a money chasing based society instead of an ethically based civilization .. thus there will always be wars coupled with starvation because it is all based around greed and gluttony .. in this case prince represents the devil talking loudly about how great being rich is and flaunting it instead of listening to that quiet voice of god that tells u that you have taken too much, far more than your fair share. i mean he does not sound anymore christian than those rappers who rap about their money and ho's. sorry but its true and i expect and demand more than that out of prince. * So, let me get this straight. You don’t want Prince to flaunt his wealth irresponsibly, but you don’t care if he discusses sex irresponsibly. So, for you, economic gluttony is worse than sexual gluttony? If this is the case, then I’ll say that you are, again, being guilty of the thing of which you are accusing Prince of being guilty, which is forcing your beliefs on him. What if Prince sees sexual irresponsibility as more dangerous than economic irresponsibility, then would that not make your stance toward Prince as narrow-minded and oppressive as many accuse Prince of being? Secondly, what separates Prince from some of the rappers (because not every rapper raps about their money and ho’s) is that Prince writes songs about almost every aspect of life from varied perceptions. In fact, on 20Ten, since you referenced his latest work, I can’t remember any celebration or flaunting of wealth or materialism. Even in “Act of God,” when he states “I get a million dollars people hear me sang/ Gotta give the banker half of everythang/ Didn’t the founding fathers holler about the same thang…” he is condemning the unfair taxing (greed and gluttony) of the government. (And, of course, he is angry (selfish) that he must pay so many taxes as most people don't like paying taxes even those of us who understand why society must have taxes. But, keep in mind that most people fight for the right thing because the wrong thing is harmful to them. Most African Americans, which I am, don’t get involved in a racial issue or a Civil Rights issue until it affects them directly, and as a community activist I have seen this first-hand.) So, again, what separates or makes Prince’s discussion of his desire for the material not a problem for me is that those discussions/songs are balanced by even more songs about the importance of loving one’s fellow man and understanding and engaging the metaphysical or spiritual aspects of life. What I demand and expect from Prince and anyone else is honesty and balance along with insightful and creative art. * TrevorAyer said: and i am also saying that the church and people are pretty screwed in the head about sex, i am not sure what ur point is about stds and teenage pregnance, but i don't think prince made any huge strides in reducing either. i still dont see your point but my point is simply that its super funny how big a deal everyone makes sex out to be, prince, the churches, the rappers, but it really doesn't have much more to do with spirituality than say taking a dump .. its more biological than spiritual .. * It seems that we have hit a brick wall or an impasse on this topic because I don’t understand your point any more than you understand my point. Nothing you said in the above paragraph makes any sense to me. So, in one final effort to understand what you are saying, let me begin with a question. Do you understand or accept that the human desire for sex is as much driven by psychological and emotional drives as it is by a physical drive? Do you understand or accept that an erection or an aroused/wet vagina is caused as much by psychological and emotional drives as by a physical drive? If your answer to either question is no, then that ends our conversation because we have a completely different understanding of why people have sex. In short, and I don’t mean to be offensive, but if you are saying, and please correct me if I am misunderstanding what you mean, that the act of sex is a biological equivalent to taking a dump, that is the most illogical statement that I have ever heard in my life. But, again, if you see sex as only a biological act, not driven equally by emotional and psychological aspects, then we can end that aspect of our discourse because our basic understanding of what sex is will make it difficult to come to any consensus about Prince’ s discussion of sex. * Now, my point about STDs, teen pregnancy, and sexual assault is that these things exist because people have been taught to be irresponsible when it comes to sex. And, again, you attempt to twist and misinterpret my words. I never said that Prince’s later discussions or attitude toward sex and sexuality has made any strides in reducing any of these issues. I stated that it would be shameful or pathetic if a man Prince’s age did not have a more responsible approach to sex. Now, I do think that media and popular art can affect the manner in which young people engage sex, and that affect or influence seems to be greater on young people who do not have proper love and support (whatever we deem as proper) from parents. At the most crucial times in their lives, young people are surrounded by and bombarded by advertising and art that encourages casual and promiscuous (uninhibited) sex without understanding the physical, emotional, and psychological risks involved in engaging in casual and uninhibited sex. Based on the testimony of many famous and non-famous people, Prince’s early (1980s) work greatly influenced the sexual attitudes and behavior of many. Accordingly, I don’t see anything wrong with a man reviewing his past, as all adults are prone to do, and questioning whether his impact or influence on society has been positive or negative based on the standards by which he desires to live his life. You think that most church people are screwed in the head about sex and that sex is not a big deal, and you have a right to that. Prince seems to disagree, and he has a right to that notion. My issue is that STDs, teen pregnancy, and sexual assault exist because of irresponsible sexual behavior, and one of the causes of that irresponsible behavior is popular art. So, I am pleased to see Prince be more responsible in regards to sex. I don’t know if it will help much, especially since Prince is not nearly as popular today. But, again, this aspect of our conversation is meaningless if we are unable to come to some consensus as to what degree the act of sex is driven by biology and to what degree the act of sex is driven by emotion and psychology. And since you seem to assert that sex is completely biological, and I completely disagree, we are just spinning our wheels or wasting our time on this aspect of the topic. | |
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I Wish U Heaven Doubts of our conviction I wish U heaven {x2} If I see 11 I wish U heaven {x2} La, la, la, la, la I wish U heaven {x8} © 1988 Controversy Music - ASCAP
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So profound! | |
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It's really interesting to see how Prince evolved spiritually during his 30+ years carreer.
First Prince was sort of rude and struggling in some of his lyrics with Christian ideas on Controversy and 1999. Then he remained the sinner, but became more devout and respectful on PR, ATWIAD and Parade, followed up by being somewhat confused and lost on SOTT and the Black album, only to be revived again with LoveSexy and Graffiti Bridge.
It may seem that Batman, D&P,
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I'm in love with God, he's the only way
[Edited 1/25/12 8:21am] | |
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, Come and Gold have less Christian laced lyrics than his 80's albums, but not so. The album Exodus speaks volumes. But interestingly also, Prince inserted elements from other religions such as Budhism and Hinduism in his music. (e.g. The Truth, Kamasutra). Some would even say "new age". At around the same time he started to show interest in Jehova's Witness doctrines (e.g. "the Christ"), later followed by his conversion.And this 1-- ooh! Yeah -- That's the 1. | |
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i talked to a JW about prince a few years ago too, and the guy was aware of prince being one, but he said he just thought it was a phase he's going through, and that most JW's don't accept him as one. | |
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poor prince, he isn't even accepted by people in his own religion.hello 1725topp .. its a bit challenging to respond to your short novel in these small reply boxes so i will keep it simple .. the contradictory prince of old was searching in earnest .. the contradictory prince of new acts as tho he's got all the answers .. and so that is why when prince takes a righteous appearance and stance with little substance to back it up i tend to roll my eyes and find the message and music quite insincere .. he certainly has some good ideas here and there but my over all sense is that prince is very out of touch with the honest approach he used to take with music and now serves a monetarily based artistic expression .. music for the purpose of monetary wealth .. in that understanding u can also hear his lyrics transform from sincere expressions of love and desire to his bragging of wealth in order to lure women in .. and the perpetuation that such wealth is a positive indication of success which in turn also insults those who chose a more spirtual path as lesser in value in society .. this message he sends with his music does not have a positive impact on society and civilazation .. sure act of god supposedly means prince cares about poor people .. so then why brag about your wealth for 20albums .. why contribute to societys temptation to over indulge for the sake of feeling like a prince when we all need to live in balance so that we ALL can eat .. that means when one has wealth others suffer .. sure prince can have his wealth but to brag about it for 20 albums and then pretend to care about poor people gets kinda old .. compare the lyrics to money dont matter tonite . to the lyrics to . the one u wanna c .. maybe u will see what i am saying .. you know prince likes pretty 'things' i guess his women are just pretty 'things' these days | |
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kimrachell said:
i talked to a JW about prince a few years ago too, and the guy was aware of prince being one, but he said he just thought it was a phase he's going through, and that most JW's don't accept him as one. What would these people know - just because someone's a JW or catholic etc doesn't mean they're Holy Jesus incarnate. I know many ppl who are of these religions & don't follow "the rules" to a T. Most of them still swear, have affairs, hell u even hear on the news of Priests pedophilia. U think just because Prince is a JW now that he should give up every part of his personality & instantly become holier than thou? Jesus himself said: He who has not sinned cast the first stone. If prince says he's a JW, then he's a JW... but he's still Prince at the end of the day & nothing is going to change that, not even Prince can. Amen  Peace in the House of Prince. | |
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I like the track Prince made called "America". The lyrics has both an political and religious edge to it. Plus, it sounds like gospel rock or something. He and The Revolution was jamming it up live on YouTube, but I cannot post it
America LyricsYeah
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These days? He has always objectified women. The one U wanna C song is horrible but the classist sexist video is a thousand times worse. People who become wealthy often lose touch with reality. Its sad really. | |
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One of the things I do realize now as an adult is the Christian theme and mind of Prince that's always been present. What's awesome now is that he isn't struggling with it....he knows who he is now and what he stands for. I love that about him!! I'm so glad Prince isn't scared to share with the world his beliefs either....we need more Christians with JW feet and Pentacostal Faith!! Prince is GORGEOUS. I'm inspired. GOD is GREAT. Is there anything else to say? lol | |
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LOL it's all in the implications | |
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Oh she tripped me out. She said "I'm sure they've done kicked him out long ago but he probably just follows the Jehovah's Witnesses teachings because he's knows they're the right teachings". Andy is a four letter word. | |
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They would know because they are Jehovah's Witnesses themselves. They know what they tolerate and what they don't. True, most folks from lots of religions don't run around thinking they're saints but these are Jehovah's Witnesses here and I have never had a conversation with one of them that didn't somehow get turned into a religious discussion. It's like they are obsessed with it 24/7. Hell, they even go door to door preaching and it's required of them. Now, how many other religions go around preaching at peoples doors to the point that people hide and don't want to answer their own door? I've had kids from other religions knock at my door selling candy for their church but that's about it.
And then I'm always hearing them talk about someone being "kicked out" of the religion. Lots of other religions welcome sinners into the church because they're the ones that need to be in the church. They don't kick them out. And then there's the part about "having to get permission" from the other Jehovah's Witnesses before they can something. For instance, Michael Jackson having to get permission from them to release the "Thriller" video and then even being told to put the disclaimer at the front of it. Most other artists just do as they please and say "fuck it" if someone from their church doesn't like their video. Do you think somebody like Madonna went and got permission from her church to do her videos. We're not talking about average people here. We're talking about people who eat, sleep, and breathe their religion 24/7 to the point of obsession. If they say they believe Prince was probably kicked out, I can definitely believe them because he sure doesn't look or act the conservative part they play. And Lord knows how controlling he is. I can't see him going and getting permission to do things whatsoever and from his appearance, he's definitely not. . . . [Edited 1/26/12 8:33am] Andy is a four letter word. | |
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I doubt Prince was kicked out of anything. Even the JWs on this site never criticized anything he did. If he were anyone but Prince, I believe he or she would have been disfellowshipped long ago. | |
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The thing that is becoming most clear to me from our discussions is that two earnest people can look at the same thing and see something totally different. For instance, I cannot fathom that someone can hear a song like "Colonized Mind" and say that Prince is still not earnest in what he says. As a thirty year Prince fan, the first time I heard it, it immediately went to my top five favorite, and, again, I experienced the 80s. So, it seems that we really are seeing, hearing, perceiving two different things. It almost seems, and not to judge you or put words in your mouth, that what makes Prince dishonest is that he no longer has the same view as you or that his view is so different than what you perceived them to be originally that he must be dishonest now. However, I can't understand how anyone who was exposed to his 80s work could not see the possibility of Prince developing into a more traditional or even fundamental Christian since all the signs/ideas/imagery are there early. And, again, “Colonized Mind” and “Musicology” make the hairs on my neck and arms stand with their raw energy and powerful emotion. I just don’t get it when people say that Prince is on emotional autopilot or isn’t as earnest and intense today as he was in the 80s. * Secondly, the 80s Prince was pretty self-righteous. He may have been less definitive about his personal blackness, but he was quite forthright and self-righteous: "Ronnie Talk to Russia," "Annie Christian," "Controversy," "Uptown," "1999," "Let's Go Crazy," "Free," "Paisley Park," "Mountains," "Play in the Sunshine," "Sign 'O' the Times," etc. These songs have a definite mantra of right and wrong. His notion of rightness may have been more generic or inclusive, but there is definitely a notion in each of these songs that there is a right and a wrong, and he is standing for what he sees as right. Thus, I don't see how current Prince is any different than 80s Prince when we discuss Prince's desire to preach or disseminate a message. Prince had a view of the world, and he was going to preach it no matter who liked or purchased it, and that is the same for him today. What is different is not his self-righteousness or forthrightness. What is different is his becoming more conscious and conscience about discussing his blackness (which has nothing to do with this conversation) and his religious stance or ideology. But his earnestness in how he approaches and presents his message is the same. If we are discussing method, passion, and earnestness, Prince is the same dude today that he was thirty years ago. * Finally, unless I have missed something, Prince has not bragged about his wealth for twenty years. He has, consistently, juxtaposed the material/physical and metaphysical/spiritual words to analyze and discuss the tensions and problems that humans face trying to reconcile them. Maybe because he has engaged in this discourse in his own unapologetic manner with his own particular insight and humor, many have missed his message. For instance, in "Adore" the speaker is comparing the female to the material things to show how much he has changed or grown. And, yet, the humor/joke, which is simply Prince being Prince, is that we all struggle: she can damage all of his possessions except "the ride," which is a humorous nod to the topic as well as a humorous nod to the R&B/Soul tradition. So maybe the problem is that even some of Prince's biggest fans don't really accept how smart Prince is, especially his understanding of the history of music and music genres. Thus, "Adore" is funny as well as serious about love being more important than the material. Hell, the man made two crappy ass movies (both I love) asserting that love/spiritual is more important than the physical. And as for "The One U Wanna C," I took it with the same humorous tone as "Adore," especially since he says, "I got a lotta money, but I don't wanna spend it on me." Thus, the whole point of the song is that the speaker has all of the physical things, and they mean nothing without love. How can you possibly miss that point? Is it because he says "I'm the one u wanna C?" Well, anyone who has ever pursued a lover or a mate has made that statement. That does not make one vain. So, I don't see this twenty years of celebration and bragging on being rich. I'm not saying that you don't see it; I just don't see it. But, you never did respond to my statement about 20Ten. If you say that Prince has spent the last twenty years bragging about his wealth and women, explain 20Ten. And even if I give you "Mr. Goodnite," "Lolita," and maybe "Chocolate Box," the rest of the songs on Musicology, Planet Earth, 3121, and even Lotusflow3r/MPLS all refute your theory that Prince has spent the last twenty years being obsessed with the physical because the core theme of all of those albums is that love and the metaphysical are more valuable and fulfilling than the physical. At least, that is what I hear and read in the lyrics. * Obviously, you do not see what I'm seeing in Prince, and I don't see what you are seeing because at this point we are both looking at a traffic sign, but I am seeing a "Yield" sign, and you are seeing a "Stop" sign. So my final point is not to tell you that you are wrong, but merely to say that there is at least one person who does not see what you see at all. That doesn’t not make you wrong, but we’ll just be two people leaving each other, scratching our heads, thinking “I don’t get it,” in regards to the other person’s theory on Prince.
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The Ladder reminds me of the Rainbow Children part JW/mythology feel
Once upon a time in the land of sinaplenty
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I agree with most all of this. Prince is much more the same as he's always been than different. People tend to draw lines between this made up idea of "old Prince and new Prince" but he's basically the same dude with the same message and the same earnestness. "New Power slide...." |
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Oh, this site has fams on it. Hell, they've probably been kicked out themselves.
But I agree, if he's still in there, I think he's tolerated because of that money. Same with Michael Jackson, especially when he started looking extremely queenish. Folks will tolerate a lot of shit when it comes to money no matter how "holy" they say they are. Andy is a four letter word. | |
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I agree with both and can see where both are coming from actually.
Like I argued myself, throughout his entire carreer, Prince has always been "Christian minded". In time it changed in its form, expression and direction, but it has always been there.
But changes did happen in Prince's spirituality. At one point a revolution and a rebirth even, ever since "the dawning of a new spiritual revolution" that was 'Come' and 'Gold'.
In my mind and experience at least, you can feel that "revolting spirit" in his music since. It's different. And with that I do not just mean the ultimate change to JW. It's also the sound and the lyrical direction and what inspired those different sounds and lyrics before and after that in many ways.
[Edited 1/26/12 13:35pm] | |
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First, Skywalker, it is good to cross your path. It has been a while. I like a great deal of your posts. I agree with you and Tremolina, especially how Tremolina opened the thread by specifically showing that Prince has always had these notions. Nice thread and nice conversation. | |
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Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell | |
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I don't see how PR, Lovesexy or the 'thing with mayte' or the JW have anything to do with the spiritual death of Prince and rebirth of | |
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Thanks for the kind words. "New Power slide...." |
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