eros said:

I pretty mych had to navigate my own way through life's varying nuances

so you just blame Prince for "effing" you up huh?

I think you need to take a good look at yourself first for a change here, before you judge others.

Which so far, is the only thing you have been doing on this thread. In a major way.

Tremolina said:

eros said:

...those dirty mind songs were being danced to way before my teenage years

who cares? did you or did you not?

so you did or not?

[Edited 10/1/11 14:28pm]

It's really always the same old usual usual. Ever since Prince became really "popular" somewhere in the early 80's, to some people Prince is "not white enough", while to others he is "not black enough".

What does it really matter? And why is Prince always doing something "wrong" in that respect?

The facts are that Prince has had more "black" band members than "white", but they all played all kinds of music. Yet for some that is never enough.

He also has made a lot more "black" music than "white". But just a couple of albums predominantly "white" like ATWIAD or Parade and he is "not black enough" anymore. Make "the Black album" consisting of 90% pure funk and to some he is still a weird effiminate midget betraying his own race.

Do people forget he wrote "Controversy" and what he actually said? Yes they really do!

Prince also actually did have "black" girlfriends and dancers, but neither enough of that for some. More latina and white, so as a black man he does the community a disfavour. As if his own life and personal choices should ever be dictated by anything so general and vague as such a concept that in this case only serves as a way of projecting somebody's own fears and prejudices on him.

How would you feel if people told you to date a certain race they prefer instead of your own individual choice? Or what "race" of music and people to make music with? That's in fact the opposite of freedom and individuality. Values Prince has always stood for and apparantly some of his fans still don't understand.

[Edited 10/1/11 15:04pm]

Tremolina said:

Tremolina said:

I'm gonna say this and leave:

Maybe the thread title should be corrected or changed to "how Prince fucked me up" or "effed you up". Not us. I'm fine.

eros said:

Tremolina said:

so you did or not?

[Edited 10/1/11 14:28pm]

It seems more y like it is you who is judging me if anything ....and in a weird stalkerish kinda way. Why are you demanding that I answer that particular question so vehemently. Will you use my acknowledgement of it in some weird mastubating ritual as you prance around in a stiched together skin suit or sonething?

So you did. haha! lol

And "vehemently". Truly, you haven't even had a taste of me yet. Your own little weird fantasy about dancing around in a skin suit, by the way, says more about yourself too than me.

Point here is: I am not judging you, but your words and thoughts. And I am about to judge you too and therefore it feels to you like I am already. However, I am still simply observing your behaviour and analysing your words and thoughts. No, not very kind, I agree, but I haven't called you anything yet, or implied that you are wrong or bad for saying all that.

Just that your post is the old usual usual.

And don't forget: you put your thoughts out here, knowing that this could happen and guess what it does. You get called out on your bullshit. Don't take it personal, even tho it is. We don't know eachother and its just the internet

[Edited 10/1/11 15:00pm]

Timmy84 said:

eros said:

Timmy84 said:

I'm gonna say this and leave:

Maybe the thread title should be corrected or changed to "how Prince fucked me up" or "effed you up". Not us. I'm fine.

In my experience the ones who proclaim that they are fine are usually the ones who are MOST effed up For some reason that quote fron The Usual Suspects comes to mind for me right now --the one about the biggest trick the devil ever played

I am POSITIVE you are talking about me here. Weird huh?

I am also SURE that you would never answer the following questions for me EITHER:

How would you feel if people told you to date a certain race they prefer instead of your own individual choice? Or what "race" of music and people to make music with?

I can tell you my answer right here and now:

I would definitly feel FUCKED!!!

But you wouldn't? :

[Edited 10/1/11 15:08pm]

Tremolina said:

Oh and "eros" (what kind of "disservice" is having a name by that by the way?)

I do agree that Prince has done some things you could consider a "bad" influence on general culture.

But then I am not talking about the things you're talking about.

eros said:

Tremolina said:

I am POSITIVE you are talking about me here. Weird huh?

I am also SURE that you would never answer the following questions for me EITHER:

How would you feel if people told you to date a certain race they prefer instead of your own individual choice? Or what "race" of music and people to make music with?

I can tell you my answer right here and now:

I would definitly feel FUCKED!!!

But you wouldn't? :

[Edited 10/1/11 15:08pm]

You forgot to preface this post by calling me Clarice

Uh no... sorry, I like "eros" just fine

so what about it... eros... :

How would YOU feel if people told you to date a certain race they prefer instead of your own individual choice? Or what "race" of music and people to make music with?

eros said:

Yeah...I grew up a Prince fan However in retrospect....I'm not quite sure that was a good thing nor am I sure that he was a good influence on culture and society as a whole. Music is powerful!.... Did he use his power for the good or to our detriment?

prince's music is a powerful force for good, imo

eros said:

MadamGoodnight said:

Prince wasn't the first back man in the industry with straight flowing hair. Ron O' Neal was in Superfly with long straight hair. There were black men with straight hair decades before that. Don't blame Prince.

I don't remember Ron O'Neal in Superfly donning a fully made up face, high heels, bikini underwear, thigh-high leggins, and posing like Edith Piaf.....but maybe I was in the restroom on rhat part.

I am sure Ron O'Neal was in curlers and hot rollers getting his hair done just like all the others with the hustler-pimp style. That is how the style was achieved. The men wore suits in pastels, and bright colors, suits with exagerrated collars, cuffs, and lengths. They DID wear high heeled platform boots in those days as well. Even rappers Ice T and DJ Quik have worn long flowing hair that was the result of wearing curlers, a roller set. They're effeminate too now?

Old groups wore tight, sparkly sequined outfits, midriff tops, & nuthhuging jumpsuits. The Commodores did it, the Isley Brothers, Heatwave, so did earth Earth Wind and Fire. Let's not get started on Verdine White's hair. This gender bending stuff did not start with Prince, nor did it end with Prince.

Tremolina said:

eros said:

MadamGoodnight said: I don't remember Ron O'Neal in Superfly donning a fully made up face, high heels, bikini underwear, thigh-high leggins, and posing like Edith Piaf.....but maybe I was in the restroom during that part of the film.

I remember some guy who calls himself Little Richard and that Prince greatly borrowed from his image.

Thank you, many years before Prince came along.

Tremolina said:

Eloquently put, but still not explaining what exactly he did wrong. So he wanted to be himself and promote individuality, racial and gender equality, while also being a bit controversial about it, to make a buck. Is that so bad? So he usesd bigger African American back up singers, because they could actually sing but he was doing something wrong? You wanted to see Boni Boyer dance on Hot thing while Cat was doing the backing vocals? How about Sheila on drums? Too latin for your taste? Cora then? Doesn't respect her afro enough? IOW and not so eloquently put: that is all saying more about the OP than Prince.

It's really always the same old usual usual. Ever since Prince became really "popular" somewhere in the early 80's, to some people Prince is "not white enough", while to others he is "not black enough".

What does it really matter? And why is Prince always doing something "wrong" in that respect?

The facts are that Prince has had more "black" band members than "white", but they all played all kinds of music. Yet for some that is never enough.

He also has made a lot more "black" music than "white". But just a couple of albums predominantly "white" like ATWIAD or Parade and he is "not black enough" anymore. Make "the Black album" consisting of 90% pure funk and to some he is still a weird effiminate midget betraying his own race.

Do people forget he wrote "Controversy" and what he actually said? Yes they really do!

Prince also actually did have "black" girlfriends and dancers, but neither enough of that for some. More latina and white, so as a black man he does the community a disfavour. As if his own life and personal choices should ever be dictated by anything so general and vague as such a concept that in this case only serves as a way of projecting somebody's own fears and prejudices on him.

How would you feel if people told you to date a certain race they prefer instead of your own individual choice? Or what "race" of music and people to make music with? That's in fact the opposite of freedom and individuality. Values Prince has always stood for and apparantly some of his fans still don't understand.

[Edited 10/1/11 15:04pm]

Both of your posts do not consider how calculating Prince was being in regards to racial and sexual imaging, and you seem to present my comments as merely my subjective feelings that I am projecting onto Prince. (As in, “oh boy, here comes another one of those angry Negroes who thinks that Prince has sold-out or does not play enough Black music.”) However, Prince was calculating and considered race and sex when he choose to associate publically with anyone, and this is not what I feel. This is what he and most of the people around him have already stated—for the record. According to Pepe Willie and others, Prince chose Bobby Z because he was white. Yes, Z was/is a good/great drummer, but by all accounts he was not the best drummer in Minneapolis. Additionally, as I have stated many times before, Wendy was a much a cultural (racial and sexual) prop as she was an excellent musician. As Prince stated in one of the Rolling Stone interviews, “She makes me alright in the eyes of some people. When I sneer, she smiles.” Furthermore, in three different interviews in 1980 Prince lied about his race and couldn’t even keep the lie straight. In the first interview his mother was African American and his father was mixed. In the second interview his father was African American and his mother was mixed. By the time he gets to the third interview, both parents are mixed. And, of course, he is doing this because he knows that Dirty Mind will not get much if any play on Black radio, but he also knows that White radio will not play him if he is perceived as Black. And, again, this is something that either he or somebody close to him has confirmed. I am saying all of this because your two posts attempt to paint my posts as my personal feelings that Prince’s isn’t “Black” enough, which was never my point. I give Prince credit for being cunning enough to manipulate the racial and sexual issues, anxieties, and hang-ups of America and the world, but that does not negate the fact that he also perpetuated as many stereotypes as he was trying to break or manipulate.

*

Secondly, if you notice, my discussion was more about imaging, particularly physical imaging. While I do admit that certain types of music tend to be more popular with certain types of people, I don’t get into the discussion of whether or not Prince makes more “Black” or “White” music because most people identify rock or rock-n-roll as White music when it is clearly the child of the blues and was first played by African American artists. But, for the record, I love Prince’s rock as much as I love his funk and soul, if not more in some cases. In fact, even though I have been a Prince fan since 1980, “Colonized Mind” moves or touches me more at this period of my life than any other work. I loved it when I first heard it, and it is still in heavy rotation in my crib and car.

*

Third, my discussion is not about his private choices of romantic partners, but more about the types of women he has chosen to use as a part of his professional image. Now, because Prince chooses to blur the lines of reality to sculpt his image, my comments about certain female artistic associates do cross into the area of his personal associates, but my comments are about his professional imaging. Yes, Prince, any man or woman, can date whom he desires. But given the history of America and his above statement about Wendy, one must wonder why the vast majority of the women he has flaunted have been more Eurocentric than Afrocentric. And, given what Owen Husney and others have stated about Prince’s early desire for crossover appeal, it seems that Prince is no different than the vast majority of African Americans who struggle with various levels of self-hate from being absorbed in a sea of American whiteness. And this is particularly true of Prince’s childhood, being raised in a town that was only three percent African American at the time. He, like so many other African Americans, was absorbed in whiteness, struggled to navigate it, and it shows in certain areas of his art. I’m not saying that any of this is Prince’s fault, but we can’t ignore it just because he makes songs that we like. The ideology of “Paisley Park” and “Race” is a wonderful ideology, but we must also be mindful and question when multiculturalism becomes an excuse to deny or marginalize blackness. Teaching the universal aspects of all mankind is wonderful. But, often, according to Langston Hughes, universality is code for African Americans to show how like White people they are, producing an urge for or toward whiteness to be as much like White and as less like Black to pacify and ingratiate oneself to the White power structure, or in Prince’s case the White consumer. Thus, it is laughable that someone can ask me or anyone else who questions Prince’s racial and sexual imaging if we have forgotten what Prince states in “Controversy.” What I realize is that Prince was trying to have it both ways: challenge stereotypes while manipulating them at the same time.

*

Fourth, given your perversion of my statement about Prince’s singers, I don’t even know if it would be useful for me to respond. Yet, my point was that while Prince has been quite revolutionary in supporting African American women as artists, especially if we include Patrice Rushen, when it came to the love interests of stage, video, and movies, the female was almost always Eurocentric. So counting Cat, possibly Tamar (which was more of a cat and mouse game and not overtly presented as a romantic relationship), and the female from the “Black Sweat” video, how does that compare to the others? And I’ll even throw in the African American female dancer from the 1999 Hit and Run Tour and the dancer who appeared on the George Lopez show, but he has never presented them as “love” interest in the same way as Vanity, Apollonia, JJ, Shelia E, Sheena Easton, Kristin Scott Thomas, and Ingrid Chavez who were presented on a much larger stage to which only Cat shared that same type of stage (movie and/or major tour) with him. So, again, I’m not discussing his personal dating habits. I am discussing the types of calculated female imaging that he has used for the duration of his career. That speaks to racial and sexual issues of American culture and the same issues that cause little African American girls to desire the White doll rather than the African American doll because they are constantly told if you are White you are better, which means you are treated better. And, yes, Prince’s physical imaging has contributed to the perpetuation of certain racial and sexual sensibilities because as a major artist/entertainer he is a part of mass media, even though, in many cases, he may have intended to refute or destroy them.

*

Does Prince have a right to do what he desires? Yes, and because he usually follows his heart, I continue to love his art. However, as an individual, a critical thinker, and someone who cares about the African American community and understands that artistic imaging does affect societal values, I also have a right to critique Prince’s work just as someone has the right to critique what I do or say. Ultimately, I, like anyone should, will do what I think and feel is best for me, but I am also going to consider, objectively, any critique of myself, my ideas, and my art to ensure that what I am doing is constructive for me and my community. Thus, like most artists, Prince has contributed work/ideas to society that can be considered as positive and negative, but it is the responsibility of the receiver to take what one can use constructively and reject what cannot be used constructively. Finally, returning to my first post, this choice by the receiver is easier and more effective if one has proper parenting.

Of course you have the right to discuss and critique Prince. That's what this board for.

NEVER did I say that you didn't. Claiming I did is misrepresenting what I said.

The point of this thread, or what the OP saying, is that Prince "effed us all up".

Still hasn't been answered how exactly he did that. All I see is projections from some of his fans onto him.

eros said:

Bravo, 1725topp Bravo!

Ya leave it to somebody else when you can't do it yourself

Tremolina said:

Let's take this down to its essence. So you're effed up? And Prince is responsible? And then, if not Prince, your parents are? LOL!!

MadamGoodnight said:

eros said:

MadamGoodnight said: I don't remember Ron O'Neal in Superfly donning a fully made up face, high heels, bikini underwear, thigh-high leggins, and posing like Edith Piaf.....but maybe I was in the restroom on rhat part.

I am sure Ron O'Neal was in curlers and hot rollers getting his hair done just like all the others with the hustler-pimp style. That is how the style was achieved. The men wore suits in pastels, and bright colors, suits with exagerrated collars, cuffs, and lengths. They DID wear high heeled platform boots in those days as well. Even rappers Ice T and DJ Quik have worn long flowing hair that was the result of wearing curlers, a roller set. They're effeminate too now?

Old groups wore tight, sparkly sequined outfits, midriff tops, & nuthhuging jumpsuits. The Commodores did it, the Isley Brothers, Heatwave, so did earth Earth Wind and Fire. Let's not get started on Verdine White's hair. This gender bending stuff did not start with Prince, nor did it end with Prince.

I LUV Verdine White's hair!! A few years ago I saw him (up close and personal)...he's fierce (and really nice). Good summary. They all dressed provocatively and bent the gender a tad. What fun.

Tremolina said:

It's really always the same old usual usual. Ever since Prince became really "popular" somewhere in the early 80's, to some people Prince is "not white enough", while to others he is "not black enough".

What does it really matter? And why is Prince always doing something "wrong" in that respect?

The facts are that Prince has had more "black" band members than "white", but they all played all kinds of music. Yet for some that is never enough.

He also has made a lot more "black" music than "white". But just a couple of albums predominantly "white" like ATWIAD or Parade and he is "not black enough" anymore. Make "the Black album" consisting of 90% pure funk and to some he is still a weird effiminate midget betraying his own race.

Do people forget he wrote "Controversy" and what he actually said? Yes they really do!

Prince also actually did have "black" girlfriends and dancers, but neither enough of that for some. More latina and white, so as a black man he does the community a disfavour. As if his own life and personal choices should ever be dictated by anything so general and vague as such a concept that in this case only serves as a way of projecting somebody's own fears and prejudices on him.

How would you feel if people told you to date a certain race they prefer instead of your own individual choice? Or what "race" of music and people to make music with? That's in fact the opposite of freedom and individuality. Values Prince has always stood for and apparantly some of his fans still don't understand.

[Edited 10/1/11 15:04pm]

Beautifully said. Thank you.

BobGeorge72 said:

Prince put the "eff" in funk, baby!!

Why, he did. "Cloreen, why you wanna make me wait. Old nasty, this funk ain't going no place. It's old, it's old, and sex-ay."

Prince old music was a reflection of himself and his environment. I don't believe it was as calculated as some suggest. HIs old music was honest and prince was honestly wanting to bring together all races and genders and sexual orientations. That is why he was popular. Sure being everything to everyone is the way to make money, but back then, I don't think prince was singing about his ding a ling to make money, he was just that way, as are a lot of people who feel they must pretend they are not that way. Prince made the world a better place by being HONEST in his music.

Clearly his dating pool changed, and he is unattractively short, and artistic. Women only like that shit if ur rich and famous, otherwise the dating pool is slim pickings. So why blame prince for working with what was available, and living his dream of a world without color distinction.

I would say prince contributes more to fucking up society now than he did back then. Now he RAPs because he wants to please his black audience, or more realistically sell to his black audience. He avoids dirty words because he wants to please his christian audience. He sings about money and superficial lifestyles, because he wants to please his materialistic audience. And he does nothing these days to please those who respected his HONESTY and his ART. Back then prince music came from his actual experiences and qualified as genuine art, now the music is intelligently crafted to be a product. In my opinion, living for the purpose of product is not living at all and the perpetuation of such a limited scope of life is what is fucking up everyone.

As for the thread title etc .. its honest .. if you need someone to phrase their question or idea in a box to suit your personal idea about life than you have the problem .. a very closed mind.

The prince bashing and prince worshipping around here get stale equally, anyone that can open a topic that stimulates new ideas and new perspectives is A OK in my book and I wish that those kinds of thinkers weren't always bashed on this site.

[Edited 10/2/11 8:15am]

NiceNBreezy said:

TrevorAyer said:

Prince old music was a reflection of himself and his environment. I don't believe it was as calculated as some suggest. HIs old music was honest and prince was honestly wanting to bring together all races and genders and sexual orientations. That is why he was popular. Sure being everything to everyone is the way to make money, but back then, I don't think prince was singing about his ding a ling to make money, he was just that way, as are a lot of people who feel they must pretend they are not that way. Prince made the world a better place by being HONEST in his music.

Clearly his dating pool changed, and he is unattractively short, and artistic. Women only like that shit if ur rich and famous, otherwise the dating pool is slim pickings. So why blame prince for working with what was available, and living his dream of a world without color distinction.

I would say prince contributes more to fucking up society now than he did back then. Now he RAPs because he wants to please his black audience, or more realistically sell to his black audience. He avoids dirty words because he wants to please his christian audience. He sings about money and superficial lifestyles, because he wants to please his materialistic audience. And he does nothing these days to please those who respected his HONESTY and his ART. Back then prince music came from his actual experiences and qualified as genuine art, now the music is intelligently crafted to be a product. In my opinion, living for the purpose of product is not living at all and the perpetuation of such a limited scope of life is what is fucking up everyone.

As for the thread title etc .. its honest .. if you need someone to phrase their question or idea in a box to suit your personal idea about life than you have the problem .. a very closed mind.

The prince bashing and prince worshipping around here get stale equally, anyone that can open a topic that stimulates new ideas and new perspectives is A OK in my book and I wish that those kinds of thinkers weren't always bashed on this site.

[Edited 10/2/11 8:15am]

He RAPS because he is not afraid to cross musical genres and, like every great artist, is experimental; he avoids dirty words because of religious beliefs; and he sings about whatever, whenever the mood strikes. There are a many artists whose music you can point to as blatant 'product', but Prince isn't one of them.

As to the baiting comments made by a certain other, those will be ignored. Inexplicably (or maybe not) the image of a delusional Don Quixote tilting at windmills comes to mind. Poor thing.

NiceNBreezy said:

TrevorAyer said:

Prince old music was a reflection of himself and his environment. I don't believe it was as calculated as some suggest. HIs old music was honest and prince was honestly wanting to bring together all races and genders and sexual orientations. That is why he was popular. Sure being everything to everyone is the way to make money, but back then, I don't think prince was singing about his ding a ling to make money, he was just that way, as are a lot of people who feel they must pretend they are not that way. Prince made the world a better place by being HONEST in his music.

Clearly his dating pool changed, and he is unattractively short, and artistic. Women only like that shit if ur rich and famous, otherwise the dating pool is slim pickings. So why blame prince for working with what was available, and living his dream of a world without color distinction.

I would say prince contributes more to fucking up society now than he did back then. Now he RAPs because he wants to please his black audience, or more realistically sell to his black audience. He avoids dirty words because he wants to please his christian audience. He sings about money and superficial lifestyles, because he wants to please his materialistic audience. And he does nothing these days to please those who respected his HONESTY and his ART. Back then prince music came from his actual experiences and qualified as genuine art, now the music is intelligently crafted to be a product. In my opinion, living for the purpose of product is not living at all and the perpetuation of such a limited scope of life is what is fucking up everyone.

As for the thread title etc .. its honest .. if you need someone to phrase their question or idea in a box to suit your personal idea about life than you have the problem .. a very closed mind.

The prince bashing and prince worshipping around here get stale equally, anyone that can open a topic that stimulates new ideas and new perspectives is A OK in my book and I wish that those kinds of thinkers weren't always bashed on this site.

[Edited 10/2/11 8:15am]

He RAPS because he is not afraid to cross musical genres and, like every great artist, is experimental; he avoids dirty words because of religious beliefs; and he sings about whatever, whenever the mood strikes. There are a many artists whose music you can point to as blatant 'product', but Prince isn't one of them.

As to the baiting comments made by a certain other, those will be ignored. Inexplicably (or maybe not) the image of a delusional Don Quixote tilting at windmills comes to mind. Poor thing.

I always saw his attempts at rap as an attempt to seem more black, even tho he is horrible at it, and white folks buy it, its mostly a "black" art form. My point is that because he sucks at rap, its not honest, it comes from a place of ego, trying to be something he is not, than a true expression of who he is, especially when it was preceeded by "dead on it" which is far more honest than anything he subsequently "rapped" or whatever he calls it. Its like prince writing a death metal song .. sure he could pull it off, sorta, maybe fool a few people, but its not neccessary, not what prince is good at, and does not come from a place of true feeling or true artistic expression of himself. I don't see it as about prince not being afraid to cross musical genres. He certainly has not taken any real chances. Choosing to rap is more about not being afraid to sound like an old dad who thinks he is cool because he uses catch phrases that younger kids think sounds cool. Sound bad. And prince really does not explore genres very much .. his rock is rock lite, his jazz is jazz lite, his rap is rap lite, even his r+b fails to deliver goose bumps, his funk is funk lite, nothing of "flashlite" or 'papa don't take no mess" caliber coming out of prince these days, and his pop .. you guessed it, pop lite .. watered down, no real chances being taken .. so I can't agree with you there.