So I was listening to Xpectation this morning while I was browsing the org, and it dawned upon me that we haven't had a good discussion on Prince's attempts at jazz fusion in a while.

It's well known that Prince has flirted with jazz music over the years, with his first serious attempts at performing the genre being Madhouse albums. While they're great albums, they have never really been taken seriously in the jazz community and are often thought of us "play-jazz" or "pseudo-jazz".

More recently Prince has experimented with jazz music (or, at least, pseudo-jazz music) in the early 2000's, with albums like C-NOTE, NEWS, Xpectation, The Rainbow Children, etc. What do you jazz heads think of Prince's newer attempts at jazz fusion? Could he ever be taken seriously as a fusion artist? Can he pull it off?

I personally feel that if he wants to be taken seriously he should expand his jazz palette and educate himself more on the genre. I think that Prince has mastered the genre of funk and really needs to expand outward - like the one transition from Around The World In A Day ---> Parade. Both were attempts at capturing a psychedelic vibe, yet Parade mastered the psychedelic sound found on Around The World In A Day and expanded it. Prince should continue to explore and experiment with different genres, like jazz, if he really wants to be taken seriously as a jazz/jazz fusion artist. I really think that there's some untapped genius left in him that could be exploited if he opened his mind a little and expanded his knowledge of the music world. There's an infinite amount of musical options left for him to explore, and if he plays his cards wisely, he can really get somewhere else.

Thoughts?

I can't take Prince seriously as a 'jazz artist'.

I mean, I like his attempts at the genre but I'm reluctant to consider it jazz.

He has YEARS of study (and practice) ahead before he could be considered a real jazz musician. And I don't think that's his aim whatsoever.

As talented as he is, he's miles (no pun intended) below a fully-fledged jazz musician.

Since he's flirted with a lot of genres and mixed them all, well, why not try some jazzy sounds?

My ranking of all his 'jazz' attempts would be:

1. Every thing Madhouse (released or unreleased including the bigger part of Eric Leed's 'Times Squared' album)

2. Xpectation

3. N.E.W.S.

4. C-Note

Madhouse was great, cuz imo it was funky and jazzy at the same time.

I love those segues in between songs, those snippets from The Godfather film...

however: N.E.W.S. & Xpectation >>>> ZZZZZzzZZzzzzZZ

*bump*

I would hazard a guess that he doesnt want to be considered a real jazz artist.

I'm not really an educated jazz ear but I love N.E.W.S and Xpectation. However I'm not really an educated jazz ear but I think that skilled compositions with a fantastic feel.

i like some of the stuff on Madhouse and to me, its clearly his best jazz-fusion attempt. I think to be taken more seriously in the genre, he would have do to some serious study, jazz is a complicated form of music, and he would likely need a teacher. I just don't think that at 53 years of age, he would be willing to spend 4-6 hours nearly everyday for the next several years. He has worked hard most of his life, and like alot of people that age, just wants to relax. He has to tour as well, and he has a life outside music as well.

I do think that if he seriously studied the genre for the next 5-6 years or so, he'd probably have the chops of your average jazz pro, if not better. He is extremely gifted after all. But obviously it would take thousands of hours of training for him to be a "proper" jazz artists. Could he do it? Probably. Is he interested? I dont think so.

Jazz or not jazz, who cares? It's music, and in the end u like it or u don't.

And I happen to love 8, 16, Times Squared, Xpectation, C-Note and N.E.W.S., as well as the 2 circulating 24.

Besides, on a positive note, most of the 80's jazz-fusion records now sound terribly dated, if not cheap, while 8 and 16 sound just as fresh as if they'd been recorded yesterday. That's pretty cool

Prince is not a Jazz musican but he has a "Jazz" approach of music. His way of playing in clubs, of improvising and jamming. That's a Jazz attitude.

He could without any doubt work hard to learn the chops on Guitar but Jazz is not his style. He masters so many genres with such grace and amazing skills already!

Prince is a Funk master.

I think they all (but one) have merits and are quite nice to listen to. And they would fit quite nicely on any jazz fusion radio station.

Except for N.E.W.S. - that lifeless formless pile of goo doesn't do anything or go anywhere.

prince best jazz record was PARADE .. madhouse was pretty great but i'm not feeling the jazz so much as quirky instrumentals

prince really can't do jazz .. he is far to conservative a player .. every note perfectly placed and thought out .. he may give the band strict instructions and let individuals solo .. but he wont let everyone go for it at the same time and see what happens .. he can't improvise either .. parade was heavily influenced by a lot of the off beat melodies that make great jazz .. but it was more a product of his collaborators than of prince himself .. he could never pull off that brazen of a style on his own or with the cheap bands he hires these days

TrevorAyer said:

prince best jazz record was PARADE .. madhouse was pretty great but i'm not feeling the jazz so much as quirky instrumentals

prince really can't do jazz .. he is far to conservative a player .. every note perfectly placed and thought out .. he may give the band strict instructions and let individuals solo .. but he wont let everyone go for it at the same time and see what happens .. he can't improvise either .. parade was heavily influenced by a lot of the off beat melodies that make great jazz .. but it was more a product of his collaborators than of prince himself .. he could never pull off that brazen of a style on his own or with the cheap bands he hires these days

Pfffff

1) I invite you to listen to The Rainbow Children as well. And of course, everything that is great coming from Prince comes from his collaborators, not him.

2) "Cheap bands". That is so arrogant, no true and plain stupid all at the same time. Yeah right, John Blackwell, Ida, Cassandra and Morris are cheap musicians then.

I really hope you're not the Trevor Ayer from http://www.myspace.com/trevorayer because I would be so ashamed if I were you I would dig a tunnel straight to Tibet to hide there forever after your lame comments cuz (if you are Trevor Ayer) your music is so shit, so badly produced and arranged, so badly performed and so dead boring, my ears are still traumatized.

Madhouse, Rainbow Children and Xpectation are really the cream of the crop in my opinion....

He should just leave it at that...he is always going to incorporate funk into it or something experimental and will not be considered a jazz musician...however he understand it to a point...it's just that it will never be 'traditional'. Which is great because I like funk more-so than jazz anyway.

ohYeeeeeah said:

TrevorAyer said:

prince best jazz record was PARADE .. madhouse was pretty great but i'm not feeling the jazz so much as quirky instrumentals

prince really can't do jazz .. he is far to conservative a player .. every note perfectly placed and thought out .. he may give the band strict instructions and let individuals solo .. but he wont let everyone go for it at the same time and see what happens .. he can't improvise either .. parade was heavily influenced by a lot of the off beat melodies that make great jazz .. but it was more a product of his collaborators than of prince himself .. he could never pull off that brazen of a style on his own or with the cheap bands he hires these days

Pfffff

1) I invite you to listen to The Rainbow Children as well. And of course, everything that is great coming from Prince comes from his collaborators, not him.

2) "Cheap bands". That is so arrogant, no true and plain stupid all at the same time. Yeah right, John Blackwell, Ida, Cassandra and Morris are cheap musicians then.

I really hope you're not the Trevor Ayer from http://www.myspace.com/trevorayer because I would be so ashamed if I were you I would dig a tunnel straight to Tibet to hide there forever after your lame comments cuz (if you are Trevor Ayer) your music is so shit, so badly produced and arranged, so badly performed and so dead boring, my ears are still traumatized.

rainbow children sucks dude .. i listened to that the second it came out as a member of the npg music club .. it blows

TrevorAyer said:

ohYeeeeeah said:

Pfffff

1) I invite you to listen to The Rainbow Children as well. And of course, everything that is great coming from Prince comes from his collaborators, not him.

2) "Cheap bands". That is so arrogant, no true and plain stupid all at the same time. Yeah right, John Blackwell, Ida, Cassandra and Morris are cheap musicians then.

I really hope you're not the Trevor Ayer from http://www.myspace.com/trevorayer because I would be so ashamed if I were you I would dig a tunnel straight to Tibet to hide there forever after your lame comments cuz (if you are Trevor Ayer) your music is so shit, so badly produced and arranged, so badly performed and so dead boring, my ears are still traumatized.

rainbow children sucks dude .. i listened to that the second it came out as a member of the npg music club .. it blows

Rainbow children is a fucking great album and the fact is you will never be able to produce anything 5% as great as TRC is.

You should be a lot more humble as an artist since you're million miles away from the musicianship and the skills Prince shows night after night.

The only thing that sucks here is your music.

ohYeeeeeah said:

your music is so shit, so badly produced and arranged, so badly performed and so dead boring, my ears are still traumatized.

Agree 200%.

After hearing that, it's no wonder he says that TRC sucks or that Parade is a jazz album.

It's amazing that he dares critizise other people's (SUPERB) music when he himself cannot even tune his guitars properly...

His jazz attemts are cheese at best. He tends to do better jazz on his regular recordings, like the horn shit on Come and the horn throwdown on Dark, Billyjackbitch.

aw so nice that you judge my 20 year old 4 track demos (like i care)

check this out ..

http://trevorayer.bandcam.../jah-bliss

its only 10 years old

does anyone even use myspace anymore??? i am pretty sure prince doesn't

rainbow children still sucks

TrevorAyer said:

aw so nice that you judge my 20 year old 4 track demos (like i care)

check this out ..

http://trevorayer.bandcam.../jah-bliss

its only 10 years old

does anyone even use myspace anymore??? i am pretty sure prince doesn't

rainbow children still sucks

hahahaha ! God has mercy on you. This tune is plain flat and boring. The guitar work is very average at best and the mix is really bad.

No. You're definitely not a great musician and obviously nowhere near Prince's skills.

When I compare The Everlasting Now or 1+1+1 = 3 and your little tune, I just feel sorry for you.

What's going on in here?

ohYeeeeeah said:

TrevorAyer said:

aw so nice that you judge my 20 year old 4 track demos (like i care)

check this out ..

http://trevorayer.bandcam.../jah-bliss

its only 10 years old

does anyone even use myspace anymore??? i am pretty sure prince doesn't

rainbow children still sucks

hahahaha ! God has mercy on you. This tune is plain flat and boring. The guitar work is very average at best and the mix is really bad.

No. You're definitely not a great musician and obviously nowhere near Prince's skills.

When I compare The Everlasting Now or 1+1+1 = 3 and your little tune, I just feel sorry for you.

prince wishes he wrote a song as good as this in the last 10 years ...

http://trevorayer.bandcam...-home-soon

or this

http://trevorayer.bandcam...anges-come

thanks for hypin me tho .. and checkin out my stuff .. even if you don't like it .. i really don't mind ..

TrevorAyer said:

ohYeeeeeah said:

hahahaha ! God has mercy on you. This tune is plain flat and boring. The guitar work is very average at best and the mix is really bad.

No. You're definitely not a great musician and obviously nowhere near Prince's skills.

When I compare The Everlasting Now or 1+1+1 = 3 and your little tune, I just feel sorry for you.

prince wishes he wrote a song as good as this in the last 10 years ...

http://trevorayer.bandcam...-home-soon

or this

http://trevorayer.bandcam...anges-come

thanks for hypin me tho .. and checkin out my stuff .. even if you don't like it .. i really don't mind ..

Are you being serious? Really?

TrevorAyer said:

ohYeeeeeah said:

hahahaha ! God has mercy on you. This tune is plain flat and boring. The guitar work is very average at best and the mix is really bad.

No. You're definitely not a great musician and obviously nowhere near Prince's skills.

When I compare The Everlasting Now or 1+1+1 = 3 and your little tune, I just feel sorry for you.

prince wishes he wrote a song as good as this in the last 10 years ...

http://trevorayer.bandcam...-home-soon

or this

http://trevorayer.bandcam...anges-come

thanks for hypin me tho .. and checkin out my stuff .. even if you don't like it .. i really don't mind ..

You officially scare the shit out of me. You're joking, right?

Your voice is absolutely atrocious. Your guitar play is so amateurish. You compose tunes as good as thousand of untalented 14 years old all over the world do in their bedroom late at night.

You suffer from serious delusional disorder.

[Edited 8/18/11 12:58pm]

It NEVER fails: when an amateurish musician boasts about his music being great the final result is terrible, terribly played and don't get me started on the singing.

In all honesty: how can you do THAT, and then tell people 'Hey, look what I did!'?

And the icing on this horrible cake is having the guts to say Prince wasn't able to write songs as good as those two horrors.

You need a shrink.

Maybe he can finally tell you how to tune your guitar.

Your voice is impossible to tune.

But, hey, you did some horrible and horribly performed songs IN 2002 and you're still clinging to that in 2011: you're an artist!!

[Edited 8/18/11 13:14pm]

Hey I just did a heavily Prince influenced song and want to post it here to get roasted... what do I use to post it?

aw shit now y'all gonna make me break out the big guns ..

my version of Prince version of WE DO THIS ..

http://trevorayer.bandcam...we-do-this

to be clear .. its a live rehearsal improved cover we just melded into .. nobody but me had even heard of the song before ..

bladow!!! woo woo woo

you know it!!!

I'd love to hear him do a straight quiet jazz record with acoustic bass, acoustic piano , a small drum kit and some sax. Just instrumentals and no vocals.

I know he's capable of doing it. Having said that I love N.E.W.S. One of his best jazz type joints.

ohYeeeeeah said:

Prince is not a Jazz musican but he has a "Jazz" approach of music. His way of playing in clubs, of improvising and jamming. That's a Jazz attitude.

He could without any doubt work hard to learn the chops on Guitar but Jazz is not his style. He masters so many genres with such grace and amazing skills already!

Prince is a Funk master.

No offense to you personally ohYeeeeeah , but that comment is simply not true. The next time Prince improvises with someone or jams on stage will be the first time he has done it. Prince's seemingly random stage jam sessions are actually well rehearsed, and when he does do things he hasn't already worked out and practiced tightly beforehand things tend to go left and fall flat really fast. His so called jam sessions really don't feature any actual jamming or collaboration with anyone else on stage. That's the antithesis of a jazz approach.

Again not trying to offend anyone cause Prince music is good, but if you really step back and analyize Prince's shows, they are all sizzle, no steak, in terms of a jazz band/collaborative approach to live music. That's why I say what does he NEED world class musicians for? He can't do anything with them anyway.

[Edited 8/18/11 14:29pm]

databank said:

Jazz or not jazz, who cares? It's music, and in the end u like it or u don't.

And I happen to love 8, 16, Times Squared, Xpectation, C-Note and N.E.W.S., as well as the 2 circulating 24.

Besides, on a positive note, most of the 80's jazz-fusion records now sound terribly dated, if not cheap, while 8 and 16 sound just as fresh as if they'd been recorded yesterday. That's pretty cool

I have to totally agree with you. I think that there is too much attention to what is jazz and what isn't jazz. I love "Madhouse" and still bump my Madhouse CDs daily, however, jazz enthusiasts shouldn't dismiss Prince as a jazz artist. Music is organic. I love Milles just as much as I love Prince's foray into Jazz. However, to dismiss Madhouse 8 and 16 is ridiculous. I listen to "Times Squared" daily also and the music is just as fresh and hip as when it came out. I think the real problem is that jazz musicians have a serious problem because it is Prince playing jazz. If it was another artist, people would have jumped on Xpectation and N.E.W.S. without a problem, but because Prince can play any genre of music, he is discounted and not considered a true jazz musician when he lays down a jazz album. Shoot, Miles encountered the same problem when he changed direction with "Bitches Brew".

N.E.W.S FTW, that album is just brilliant and my 2nd favorite 2000's album probably