I think it's agreed upon by virtually everyone that his music has gradually declined since the 80s, with some exceptions and the difference of opinion being about the speed of the decline. There are always several factors involved in a long-term development like this and I'm pondering over how much different factors can have played a role.

I think a significant factor is that almost any artist's creativity decreases with age, a 28-year-old usually has more fresh ideas than a 48-year-old. Others would point more to the explanation that as the artist gets older he/she doesn't have the same hunger to succeed anymore. I agree with both explanations but I believe more in the first one especially in Prince's case because of his prolificness, no one can keep going at the same high speed and expect the same high level forever. Then there was his fight with Warner about control, surely he got disillusioned with the industry after that. Maybe that disillusion has never decreased to a completely healthy level, he talks a lot about artistic freedom in interviews; maybe his view on the industry has affected his dedication in the last half of his career.

Finally, a somewhat lesser factor that I think added an extra vitality to Prince's earlier output was his sexual outspokenness, not completely gone today but reduced.

What do you think?

addition to my original text:

After some reflection and after having read the posts here, I think that my initial statement that virtually everyone (or almost everyone) think Prince's music has gradually declined since the 80s was an overstatement. But I think it's a common opinion.

[Edited 9/2/11 15:40pm]

peter430044 said:

I think it's agreed upon by virtually everyone that his music has gradually declined since the 80s, with some exceptions and the difference of opinion being about the speed of the decline. There are always several factors involved in a long-term development like this and I'm pondering over how much different factors can have played a role.

I think a significant factor is that almost any artist's creativity decreases with age, a 28-year-old usually has more fresh ideas than a 48-year-old. Others would point more to the explanation that as the artist gets older he/she doesn't have the same hunger to succeed anymore. I agree with both explanations but I believe more in the first one especially in Prince's case because of his prolificness, no one can keep going at the same high speed and expect the same high level forever. Then there was his fight with Warner about control, surely he got disillusioned with the industry after that. Maybe that disillusion has never decreased to a completely healthy level, he talks a lot about artistic freedom in interviews; maybe his view on the industry has affected his dedication in the last half of his career.

Finally, a somewhat lesser factor that I think added an extra vitality to Prince's earlier output was his sexual outspokenness, not completely gone today but reduced.

What do you think?

I think the big change came in 1996 with the fallout from Gregory's death and the realisation that the marriage wasn't the be all and end all. It may have shattered some illusions. I don't think he was the same after that and he consequently then gravitated towards the JW's.

Another factor is leaving WBs, it may be that because he had nothing to fight for anymore and he lost his creativity somewhat.

However I think things have improved creativity wise since 2007. I think of 97-07 as the lost years!!

[Edited 9/1/11 13:42pm]

I just love it when people bite on my threads.

Nah...

The Decline happened when Prince had no one to edit his material.

Anyone who has P Bootlegs knows that Prince has been one of the biggest swill merchants since the beginning.

The moment he left Warners the quality of music became sketchy.

Not because he isn't good or anything.

But there is no one looking at his music critically except himself.

Lets face it. Prince surrounds himself with sycophants.

He's his own producer and song writer.

So he calls the shots.

Well guess what.

Prince isn't the best judge for his own music.

Namely because he's a bit insane and happens to be an arrogant asshole.

I say that with love by the way.

Within every release, there is always some nugget of quality amongst the swill.

So my guess within that tremendous vault he has, he's got gold in there.

What Prince needs is an editor.

I've always said this.

Or maybe an Old School Rock-funk Producer.

Not to produce him, but to watch over him and slap him in the face whenever he gets indulgent.

I think like most things it's a melting pot of reasons and can't be pin-pointed to one event or time.

I will say though, I think Prince has a certain self-destructive element to his personality that has halted certain 'what if's' in his career. Not self-destructive like drugs etc, like the usual rock and roll excess.

HermesReborn said:

Nah...

The Decline happened when Prince had no one to edit his material.

Anyone who has P Bootlegs knows that Prince has been one of the biggest swill merchants since the beginning.

The moment he left Warners the quality of music became sketchy.

Not because he isn't good or anything.

But there is no one looking at his music critically except himself.

Lets face it. Prince surrounds himself with sycophants.

He's his own producer and song writer.

So he calls the shots.

Well guess what.

Prince isn't the best judge for his own music.

Namely because he's a bit insane and happens to be an arrogant asshole.

I say that with love by the way.

Within every release, there is always some nugget of quality amongst the swill.

So my guess within that tremendous vault he has, he's got gold in there.

What Prince needs is an editor.

I've always said this.

Or maybe an Old School Rock-funk Producer.

Not to produce him, but to watch over him and slap him in the face whenever he gets indulgent.

TheFreakerFantastic said:

peter430044 said:

I think it's agreed upon by virtually everyone that his music has gradually declined since the 80s, with some exceptions and the difference of opinion being about the speed of the decline. There are always several factors involved in a long-term development like this and I'm pondering over how much different factors can have played a role.

I think a significant factor is that almost any artist's creativity decreases with age, a 28-year-old usually has more fresh ideas than a 48-year-old. Others would point more to the explanation that as the artist gets older he/she doesn't have the same hunger to succeed anymore. I agree with both explanations but I believe more in the first one especially in Prince's case because of his prolificness, no one can keep going at the same high speed and expect the same high level forever. Then there was his fight with Warner about control, surely he got disillusioned with the industry after that. Maybe that disillusion has never decreased to a completely healthy level, he talks a lot about artistic freedom in interviews; maybe his view on the industry has affected his dedication in the last half of his career.

Finally, a somewhat lesser factor that I think added an extra vitality to Prince's earlier output was his sexual outspokenness, not completely gone today but reduced.

What do you think?

I think the big change came in 1996 with the fallout from Gregory's death and the realisation that the marriage wasn't the be all and end all. It may have shattered some illusions. I don't think he was the same after that and he consequently then gravitated towards the JW's.

Another factor is leaving WBs, it may be that because he had nothing to fight for anymore and he lost his creativity somewhat.

However I think things have improved creativity wise since 2007. I think of 97-07 as the lost years!!

[Edited 9/1/11 13:42pm]

Your reflections are very interesting. However, I don't agree with the Witnesses factor. I think Prince lived that change in his life with genuine enthusiasm, and that resulted in a masterpiece like The Rainbow Children. We may agree or disagree with his new religious views, but, in my opinion, he made a challenging and brave record in a period in which he felt a kind of spiritual rebirth.

But, of course, at the end of the day it depends on people's tastes. If The Rainbow Children isn't your cup of tea, my reflections aren't valid for you.

No, we don't all agree your opinion... The only "decline" has been in music appreciation levels in general.

Folks just have nothing to compare Prince to... The changes, the twists and turns, the defying of age, the lyrical and musical evolution, and the longevity.

.

[Edited 9/1/11 14:16pm]

Giovanni777 said:

No, we don't all agree your opinion... The only "decline" has been in music appreciation levels in general.

Folks just have nothing to compare Prince to... The changes, the twists and turns, the defying of age, the lyrical and musical evolution, etc.

Prince?

That you?

I KNEW YOU LURKED THE ORG!

TheFreakerFantastic said:

peter430044 said:

I think it's agreed upon by virtually everyone that his music has gradually declined since the 80s, with some exceptions and the difference of opinion being about the speed of the decline. There are always several factors involved in a long-term development like this and I'm pondering over how much different factors can have played a role.

I think a significant factor is that almost any artist's creativity decreases with age, a 28-year-old usually has more fresh ideas than a 48-year-old. Others would point more to the explanation that as the artist gets older he/she doesn't have the same hunger to succeed anymore. I agree with both explanations but I believe more in the first one especially in Prince's case because of his prolificness, no one can keep going at the same high speed and expect the same high level forever. Then there was his fight with Warner about control, surely he got disillusioned with the industry after that. Maybe that disillusion has never decreased to a completely healthy level, he talks a lot about artistic freedom in interviews; maybe his view on the industry has affected his dedication in the last half of his career.

Finally, a somewhat lesser factor that I think added an extra vitality to Prince's earlier output was his sexual outspokenness, not completely gone today but reduced.

What do you think?

I think the big change came in 1996 with the fallout from Gregory's death and the realisation that the marriage wasn't the be all and end all. It may have shattered some illusions. I don't think he was the same after that and he consequently then gravitated towards the JW's.

Another factor is leaving WBs, it may be that because he had nothing to fight for anymore and he lost his creativity somewhat.

However I think things have improved creativity wise since 2007. I think of 97-07 as the lost years!!

[Edited 9/1/11 13:42pm]

Oh, by the way, I agree that since 2007 he has recovered notably. I suppose you choose 2007 because you like Planet Earth, right? If so, we may be among the few who like that album!

Planet Earth and Lotus Flow3r are great records; can't say the same of 20ten, though.

Giovanni777 said:

No, we don't all agree your opinion... The only "decline" has been in music appreciation levels in general.

Folks just have nothing to compare Prince to... The changes, the twists and turns, the defying of age, the lyrical and musical evolution, etc.

Don't you love it when people start with, "I think it's agreed upon by virtually everyone" and proceed to state something that is not only not agreed upon but is, in fact, constantly debated in the very same forum?

Javi said:

TheFreakerFantastic said:

I think the big change came in 1996 with the fallout from Gregory's death and the realisation that the marriage wasn't the be all and end all. It may have shattered some illusions. I don't think he was the same after that and he consequently then gravitated towards the JW's.

Another factor is leaving WBs, it may be that because he had nothing to fight for anymore and he lost his creativity somewhat.

However I think things have improved creativity wise since 2007. I think of 97-07 as the lost years!!

[Edited 9/1/11 13:42pm]

Oh, by the way, I agree that since 2007 he has recovered notably. I suppose you choose 2007 because you like Planet Earth, right? If so, we may be among the few who like that album!

Planet Earth and Lotus Flow3r are great records; can't say the same of 20ten, though.

Yes I am the same, love those albums, PE was a real return to form IMO, also love the Lotusflow3r set but don't like 20TEN...filler IMO except Act of God.

TRC...never been much of a fan just because the narration and the slightly bigoted commentary really put me off. Musically its good. If there was a version with no segues or narration i'd like it.

[Edited 9/1/11 14:18pm]

Genesia said:

Giovanni777 said:

No, we don't all agree your opinion... The only "decline" has been in music appreciation levels in general.

Folks just have nothing to compare Prince to... The changes, the twists and turns, the defying of age, the lyrical and musical evolution, etc.

Don't you love it when people start with, "I think it's agreed upon by virtually everyone" and proceed to state something that is not only not agreed upon but is, in fact, constantly debated in the very same forum?

Yeah, I really "love" it... I reeealllly do.

Genesia said:

I just love it when people bite on my threads.

Are you reffering to your thread "How does he "hear" it?" Looked it up and read it after posting mine. It was a good read. I totally agree that creativity is a difficult process and that there is no need to almost always critise. Many of my posts on the org are appreciative of Prince's work.

Genesia said:

Giovanni777 said:

No, we don't all agree your opinion... The only "decline" has been in music appreciation levels in general.

Folks just have nothing to compare Prince to... The changes, the twists and turns, the defying of age, the lyrical and musical evolution, etc.

Don't you love it when people start with, "I think it's agreed upon by virtually everyone" and proceed to state something that is not only not agreed upon but is, in fact, constantly debated in the very same forum?

I'm on the org pretty frequently and almost never read comments that say Prince's music was just as good after the 80s. Maybe "virtually everyone" was to put it too strongly? Maybe "almost never" is to put it less strongly?

It's pretty common that people also like the 90s and 00s, as do I, actually more than most here on the org it seems, but it seems people almost always prefer the 80s. And I have absolutely no problem if someone likes his music after the 80s just as much, Giovanni777 obviously does.

By gradual decline I didn't mean it was some huge decline, and that's why I also wrote that people have differing opinions about the speed of the decline. I happen to think that the decline has been pretty slow. I didn't think I needed to get into the specifics about the differing opinions about the speed.

[Edited 9/1/11 16:37pm]

It's not all been downhill, it's up and down all the time, and that goes for most aspects of his career.

He is only human, in the real world no one can be expected to be brilliant at whatever they do forever. His music has matured for better or worse along with himself as a person.

TheFreakerFantastic said:

peter430044 said:

I think it's agreed upon by virtually everyone that his music has gradually declined since the 80s, with some exceptions and the difference of opinion being about the speed of the decline. There are always several factors involved in a long-term development like this and I'm pondering over how much different factors can have played a role.

I think a significant factor is that almost any artist's creativity decreases with age, a 28-year-old usually has more fresh ideas than a 48-year-old. Others would point more to the explanation that as the artist gets older he/she doesn't have the same hunger to succeed anymore. I agree with both explanations but I believe more in the first one especially in Prince's case because of his prolificness, no one can keep going at the same high speed and expect the same high level forever. Then there was his fight with Warner about control, surely he got disillusioned with the industry after that. Maybe that disillusion has never decreased to a completely healthy level, he talks a lot about artistic freedom in interviews; maybe his view on the industry has affected his dedication in the last half of his career.

Finally, a somewhat lesser factor that I think added an extra vitality to Prince's earlier output was his sexual outspokenness, not completely gone today but reduced.

What do you think?

I think the big change came in 1996 with the fallout from Gregory's death and the realisation that the marriage wasn't the be all and end all. It may have shattered some illusions. I don't think he was the same after that and he consequently then gravitated towards the JW's.

Another factor is leaving WBs, it may be that because he had nothing to fight for anymore and he lost his creativity somewhat.

However I think things have improved creativity wise since 2007. I think of 97-07 as the lost years!!

[Edited 9/1/11 13:42pm]

Yes, what happened with his son must've been really difficult. I read in some online article that his mother died sometime in the 90s and that she wanted him to join the Jehovah's Witnesses because she was a member herself. Tragic when a parent die and that might be a motivation for someone to join a sect. And the marriage like you say.

Aspects of Life? Most likely. But I also can imagine it being a deliberate decision. An artist who doesn't get kissed by his muse anymore has in general 2 options:

1) He tries to ignore it by lowering his own expectations.

2) He struggles his way through without giving up on his high expectations.

[Edited 9/1/11 17:11pm]

Giovanni777 said:

HermesReborn said:

Giovanni777 said:

No, we don't all agree your opinion... The only "decline" has been in music appreciation levels in general.

Folks just have nothing to compare Prince to... The changes, the twists and turns, the defying of age, the lyrical and musical evolution, etc.

Prince?

That you?

I KNEW YOU LURKED THE ORG!

I agree with your assessment

Giovanni777 said:

No, we don't all agree your opinion... The only "decline" has been in music appreciation levels in general.

Folks just have nothing to compare Prince to... The changes, the twists and turns, the defying of age, the lyrical and musical evolution, and the longevity.

This.

being a Jovo has messed up his mind, how can someone with so much intelligence believe crazy fairy tale stuff like that?

If there was a god i would kill it because of the damage it's done to Prince

[Edited 9/2/11 3:51am]

kevinpnb said:

Giovanni777 said:

No, we don't all agree your opinion... The only "decline" has been in music appreciation levels in general.

Folks just have nothing to compare Prince to... The changes, the twists and turns, the defying of age, the lyrical and musical evolution, and the longevity.

.

[Edited 9/1/11 14:16pm]

I rarely post my thoughts on these types of threads -- ahem, I rarely post my thoughts -- but the way I see it, there's been no evidence aside from commercial success (which he's clearly not chasing) and the ever-changing tide of what's in fashion musically (which he sometimes tries to appease--with inconsistent success) that Prince has "declined" or really "lost" anything. I think after a certain point -- say, the genius displayed in the ever-lauded 80s-- an artist's mastery becomes established in the public consciousness. He's certainly played around with staying hip, and has arguably made some missteps in that pursuit, but all in all the quality of the work, the genius displayed in so many musical and lyrical nuances has increased. I guess my point is that while he's not been commercially cool for so many years, and yeah, we're all disappointed that even his really great recent stuff (TRC for instance) rarely gets critical mainstream praise, the Prince "canon" just keeps getting richer. I swear I am not a fanboy type and not paid Just thoughts. I liken Prince to Joni, who has also played to her own muse, and as I've dug into her catalog over the last few years, I've discovered treasure after treasure, even among those albums that were deemed to be in her "fall-off" period artistically. [Edited 9/1/11 18:09pm]

Wow, Prince is declining, when did that happen , did i miss something, all i can see is that the man is older and he does what he wants now., no one stays the same forever, and as far as Princes music , just because he hasnt put out the type of music u wanna hear from him doesnt mean he is declining.

[Edited 9/2/11 4:32am]

RicoN said:

being a Jovo has messed up his mind, how can someone with so much intelligence believe crazy fairy tale stuff like that?

If there was a god i would kill it because of the damage it's done to Prince

[Edited 9/2/11 3:51am]

Just because you think that is "crazy fairy tale stuff" doesn't mean it has probably been a big and inspiring force in Prince's life. It seems that respecting plurality is still too much for many, many people.

Javi said:

RicoN said:

being a Jovo has messed up his mind, how can someone with so much intelligence believe crazy fairy tale stuff like that?

If there was a god i would kill it because of the damage it's done to Prince

[Edited 9/2/11 3:51am]

Just because you think that is "crazy fairy tale stuff" doesn't mean it has probably been a big and inspiring force in Prince's life. It seems that respecting plurality is still too much for many, many people.

Exactly, I'm not religious myself but the very thing some say "damaged" Prince may in fact have saved him. We can't know. I do know Prince is alive and well and still creating music while many others have fallen by the wayside.

After Wendy and Lisa left he seemed to stop exploring new genres in music. That's why. Without something to challenge you you'll burn out eventually.

Javi said:

RicoN said:

being a Jovo has messed up his mind, how can someone with so much intelligence believe crazy fairy tale stuff like that?

If there was a god i would kill it because of the damage it's done to Prince

[Edited 9/2/11 3:51am]

Just because you think that is "crazy fairy tale stuff" doesn't mean it has probably been a big and inspiring force in Prince's life. It seems that respecting plurality is still too much for many, many people.

by saying that i'm not respecting plurality you're not respecting plurality.

It has had a big influence on him, how many songs are ruined by him banging on about Jesus and god, and all this changing his lyrics and stuff, not playing old songs because of the lyrics...

the version of godhead he has chosen to be infected by is a really silly one too...

damn shame if you ask me.

RicoN said:

Javi said:

Just because you think that is "crazy fairy tale stuff" doesn't mean it has probably been a big and inspiring force in Prince's life. It seems that respecting plurality is still too much for many, many people.

by saying that i'm not respecting plurality you're not respecting plurality.

It has had a big influence on him, how many songs are ruined by him banging on about Jesus and god, and all this changing his lyrics and stuff, not playing old songs because of the lyrics...

the version of godhead he has chosen to be infected by is a really silly one too...

damn shame if you ask me.

funny u only seemed concerned about the music and not Prince's well being.

kevinpnb said:

Giovanni777 said:

No, we don't all agree your opinion... The only "decline" has been in music appreciation levels in general.

Folks just have nothing to compare Prince to... The changes, the twists and turns, the defying of age, the lyrical and musical evolution, and the longevity.

.

[Edited 9/1/11 14:16pm]

I rarely post my thoughts on these types of threads -- ahem, I rarely post my thoughts -- but the way I see it, there's been no evidence aside from commercial success (which he's clearly not chasing) and the ever-changing tide of what's in fashion musically (which he sometimes tries to appease--with inconsistent success) that Prince has "declined" or really "lost" anything. I think after a certain point -- say, the genius displayed in the ever-lauded 80s-- an artist's mastery becomes established in the public consciousness. He's certainly played around with staying hip, and has arguably made some missteps in that pursuit, but all in all the quality of the work, the genius displayed in so many musical and lyrical nuances has increased. I guess my point is that while he's not been commercially cool for so many years, and yeah, we're all disappointed that even his really great recent stuff (TRC for instance) rarely gets critical mainstream praise, the Prince "canon" just keeps getting richer. I swear I am not a fanboy type and not paid Just thoughts. I liken Prince to Joni, who has also played to her own muse, and as I've dug into her catalog over the last few years, I've discovered treasure after treasure, even among those albums that were deemed to be in her "fall-off" period artistically. [Edited 9/1/11 18:09pm]

Nicely written, and I couldn't agree more. ~G