He's got rid of any possible 'obstacle' and quality control and he chose to be surrounded by a bunch of people who just perform brainal fellatio on him so as not to lose their job. No company struggling to recoup their investments has been crucial in this downhill process.

He's dropped the 'challenging hunger' in favour of 'monetary hunger'. He doesn't care about releasing great music. He just wants to be paid as much as possible for minimal efforts. Honestly, can any of you imagine Prince making SOTT just to be sold only at a certain store chain or to be given away only with certain newspapers?

His ivory-tower/I-just-see-what-I-want-to-see lifestyle is not exactly the best breeding ground for great music. He should travel, he should abandon all that celebrities-only partying, he should forget about trying to hype futile mannequins like Allo and he should have someone with the power and the guts to tell him 'No' around.

And mostly he should stop thinking that ANYTHING that comes from him HAS TO BE praised, excesively paid for and critically acclaimed JUST BECAUSE it comes from the once great Prince...

All that said, I'm sure he keeps on recording great stuff but just not releasing it. Of course, creativity wanes with age, but we're talking of somebody who once was SO creative that it's impossible to think that all that has just 'disappeared' for good.

He may play better now, but what's the use of that if 95% of the recent bootlegs leave me lukewarm? I find his concerts uber-boring since 2002.

And if we add to all that the fact that there seems to be still a big bunch of his fans that are eager to swallow any turd he drops...

[Edited 9/2/11 6:22am]

When you look at his post-WB output there have been only a couple of albums that have been released as proper "Prince" or "" albums in a manner that would comparable to the albums he made during his WB days. The only single CD releases with a more regular type of record company release and promotion cycle he's done since have been Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic and 3121 (which is not to say the promotional efforts really worked like intended). Emancipation was a big project, but there was just no way in hell a 3CD album project by an artist that had already put out several CDs during the same year was going to work out commercially

I think he was quite disappointed by the reaction to Emancipation and decided to play safe for the most part. The release of Crystal Ball and NPS after Emancipation indicates to me that he was perhaps a bit scared to do high profile albums and see them tanking one after another. But the thing about Prince is that he always does his best work when he simply aims at making something special that also forces him to pay more attention to the overall quality of the songwriting and production.

I like his 00s output, but it has consisted almost entirely of "sideproject" and "giveaway" albums. The nature of those projects probably just hasn't made him try harder (TRC, as much as it divides opinion, seems to have been a lovechild of his though).

tricky99 said:

funny u only seemed concerned about the music and not Prince's well being.

And why should we?

This is a deal, guy: he SELLS music. We BUY it. No neeed for further mental wanking.

Fairly simple.

Prior to 1996 Prince operated in a manner that suggested that his mind was free and unrestricted.

1996 forward Prince has been handcuffed by his beliefs and u can see and hear it in his art. Add 2 that age and life experience..................

tricky99 said:

RicoN said:

by saying that i'm not respecting plurality you're not respecting plurality.

It has had a big influence on him, how many songs are ruined by him banging on about Jesus and god, and all this changing his lyrics and stuff, not playing old songs because of the lyrics...

the version of godhead he has chosen to be infected by is a really silly one too...

damn shame if you ask me.

funny u only seemed concerned about the music and not Prince's well being.

Not at all, i'm talking about the influence it's had on his musical output, or perhaps his view of his musical output.

If you consider, as I do, The Rainbow Children a true masterpiece, I think his spiritual well being resulted in a fantastic work.

That said, I don't know what's wrong in thinkin about Prince's personal well being, considering how much his music has helped and encouraged many people. He is a person, and, far from doing me wrong, he has given me much happiness, so I do think about his well being. It just takes some sensitivity to feel like this, actually.

not sure if that was meant for me Javi but i'm not saying I don't care for his well being, I'm a human, he's a human, it's natural to hope people are well, I would say his religion is a sickness though.

RicoN said:

not sure if that was meant for me Javi but i'm not saying I don't care for his well being, I'm a human, he's a human, it's natural to hope people are well, I would say his religion is a sickness though.

It was a comment to several previous ones, that's why it wasn't a reply to one in particular.

What I meant is that the guy deserves respect even if one doesn't share his beliefs; religion seems to be a very serious thing to Prince. And if his beliefs result in great music, then you can't ask for more.

I guess it all depends on tastes. I think some of Prince's strongest material is religion-induced. Not only The Rainbow Children, but previous songs like The Cross, Anna Stesia or Love... Thy Will Be Done. If you dislike this kind of material, you may rightly say that his religious views have had a negative influence in his music.

His abilities have inclined upwards! I used to be frustrated by a certain amount of songs on his 80's albums that seemed to stick with the same arrangement theme of the album but seemed to be very low energy/low creative ideas. These days, his variety shows no discipline or holding back, and I like that more. Now, that also can lead to cheaper more simple production which is a downer. But listening to the production on "Supercute", the intricate little production touches and the musical hooks and touches are FAR beyond his abilities earlier on.

Of course he still puts out only a few songs on each album I think are gems, and then there are uninteresting ones. This has always been the case.

ufoclub said:

His abilities have inclined upwards! I used to be frustrated by a certain amount of songs on his 80's albums that seemed to stick with the same arrangement theme of the album but seemed to be very low energy/low creative ideas. These days, his variety shows no discipline or holding back, and I like that more. Now, that also can lead to cheaper more simple production which is a downer. But listening to the production on "Supercute", the intricate little production touches and the musical hooks and touches are FAR beyond his abilities earlier on.

Of course he still puts out only a few songs on each album I think are gems, and then there are uninteresting ones. This has always been the case.

I'd tend to agree with this, I don't think the quality has gone down, but the quantity has gone up, He's still producing diamonds as good as the older stuff, but he's also releasing some poorer stuff, I think some of his production values have gone down too, which doesn't help

Javi said:

TheFreakerFantastic said:

I think the big change came in 1996 with the fallout from Gregory's death and the realisation that the marriage wasn't the be all and end all. It may have shattered some illusions. I don't think he was the same after that and he consequently then gravitated towards the JW's.

Another factor is leaving WBs, it may be that because he had nothing to fight for anymore and he lost his creativity somewhat.

However I think things have improved creativity wise since 2007. I think of 97-07 as the lost years!!

[Edited 9/1/11 13:42pm]

Your reflections are very interesting. However, I don't agree with the Witnesses factor. I think Prince lived that change in his life with genuine enthusiasm, and that resulted in a masterpiece like The Rainbow Children. We may agree or disagree with his new religious views, but, in my opinion, he made a challenging and brave record in a period in which he felt a kind of spiritual rebirth.

But, of course, at the end of the day it depends on people's tastes. If The Rainbow Children isn't your cup of tea, my reflections aren't valid for you.

actually that shows a connection with what Squirrelgrease said and a few others

I love the Rainbow Children the quality and creativity is awesome, but look at the albums prior and following. A totally change in cohesiveness and creative output. RC to me sounds like Prince, Musicology 3121 don't and more importantly don't have any cohesive affect that you find on the Rainbow Children nor on any pre 1990's music

OldFriends4Sale said:

Javi said:

Your reflections are very interesting. However, I don't agree with the Witnesses factor. I think Prince lived that change in his life with genuine enthusiasm, and that resulted in a masterpiece like The Rainbow Children. We may agree or disagree with his new religious views, but, in my opinion, he made a challenging and brave record in a period in which he felt a kind of spiritual rebirth.

But, of course, at the end of the day it depends on people's tastes. If The Rainbow Children isn't your cup of tea, my reflections aren't valid for you.

actually that shows a connection with what Squirrelgrease said and a few others

I love the Rainbow Children the quality and creativity is awesome, but look at the albums prior and following. A totally change in cohesiveness and creative output. RC to me sounds like Prince, Musicology 3121 don't and more importantly don't have any cohesive affect that you find on the Rainbow Children nor on any pre 1990's music

I agree. The cohesiveness is fundamental to make The Rainbow Children such an impressive effort. Regarding the subject of this thread, I just wanted to say that an important change in Prince's life, his conversion to the Witnesses, influenced his music and was essential for the making of this brilliant album.

Recently I've been thinking that Lotus Flow3r has some of that cohesiveness too. It's certainly inferior to The Rainbow Children, but it may be his second best effort of the 00's, considering both cohesiveness and brilliant tunes.

Javi said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

actually that shows a connection with what Squirrelgrease said and a few others

I love the Rainbow Children the quality and creativity is awesome, but look at the albums prior and following. A totally change in cohesiveness and creative output. RC to me sounds like Prince, Musicology 3121 don't and more importantly don't have any cohesive affect that you find on the Rainbow Children nor on any pre 1990's music

I agree. The cohesiveness is fundamental to make The Rainbow Children such an impressive effort. Regarding the subject of this thread, I just wanted to say that an important change in Prince's life, his conversion to the Witnesses, influenced his music and was essential for the making of this brilliant album.

Recently I've been thinking that Lotus Flow3r has some of that cohesiveness too. It's certainly inferior to The Rainbow Children, but it may be his second best effort of the 00's, considering both cohesiveness and brilliant tunes.

I agree LotusFlow3r came close but direction is still kind of murky

Minneapolis SOund just failed all together and deceived us

I wish if his conversation actually did create the Rainbow Children then why not continue on certain aspects of it, the story line was very interesting, that kind of format always works, that was the 1st Prince album since Lovesexy (not counting Batman soundtrack) that felt like you were on a journey or being taken to a 'place'

I DON'T believe in the opinion that Prince's music has declined at all. In fact Prince's work is still as fresh, different and brilliant as it ever was. I am THANKFUL that anything he has written in the 90's, 2000's and today sound nothing like anything from his 80's work. Sure there are flavors but I enjoy all his work and see it all stand on it's own. Prince is an incredible artist. Thank the MAKER for the fantastic diversity in his work.

[Edited 9/2/11 11:02am]

TikiColadas said:

I DON'T believe in the opinion that Prince's music has declined at all. In fact Prince's work is still as fresh, different and brilliant as it ever was. I am THANKFUL that anything he has written in the 90's, 2000's and today sound nothing like anything from his 80's work. Sure there are flavors but I enjoy all his work and see it all stand on it's own. Prince is an incredible artist. Thank the MAKER for the fantastic diversity in his work.

ok

Sometimes you gotta step back from the 'fandom' and look n listen without prejudice

OldFriends4Sale said:

TikiColadas said:

I DON'T believe in the opinion that Prince's music has declined at all. In fact Prince's work is still as fresh, different and brilliant as it ever was. I am THANKFUL that anything he has written in the 90's, 2000's and today sound nothing like anything from his 80's work. Sure there are flavors but I enjoy all his work and see it all stand on it's own. Prince is an incredible artist. Thank the MAKER for the fantastic diversity in his work.

ok

Sometimes you gotta step back from the 'fandom' and look n listen without prejudice

Nobody can be totally objective that is not humanly possible so what you are saying doesn't make sense. Some of you simply refuse to believe that there are some fans who simply like the range of Prince's career.

Some of us don't get into a "this" is better than "that" mindset. Is "Dance on" better than "Dreamer"? On what "objective" basis would you decide which is better?

As others have said here, its hard to pin it down on one point. Its probably the result of different elements:

Most important:

The fact that you cant stay on the same level of creativity and artistic quality during a career longer then 30 years. In that sense he is no different then lets say: Stevie Wonder, Paul McCartney, REM, Bruce Springsteen, U2, and Madonna. All had their peak periods, followed by a lesser period, sometimes with temporary artistic renaissances in their later years.

People like Bob Dylan and Tom Waits released albums later on in their careers that were seen as masterpieces, maybe the same can happen to Prince.

Next to that:

His choice to 'do it himself' mostly since the mid nineties: without the help of a record company, a lot of managers, a producer / executive producer. And also less input musical input from bandmembers then in the past.

Its important for 'quality control' if you have some people around you who say: this song sucks, should you really put that on the album? or, why not use the internet to sell your back catalogue in a proper way?

Maybe it also has some influence on the musical influences he incorporates into his material nowadays: during the eighties it was said to be Dez who introduced him to new wave music, Wendy and Lisa did seem to bring more nuances and semi-acoustic 'qualities' to his arrangements. Eric Leeds seemed to help Prince 'flesh out' his experiments with jazz and fusion. Prince himself said he liked the music of more 'left field' artists like The Cocteau Twins, The Sundays and classical composers like Mahler and Stravinsky.

Nowadays he make it seem like people Will-i-am, Rihanna and Beyonce are the new musical legends.. lol

Changing priorities in life:

Maybe Prince has gotten into a phase in his career that he feels he has nothing to prove anymore with his albums, and that he first of all enjoys performing. So he releases albums mostly to promote his tours?

Or maybe he is just glad he can make money with his career, without putting much artistic effort into it. Who knows?

Finally, the role of religion:

The influence of him turning JW is the hardest to judge i think. On one hand, its a very personal decision and we dont really know how it influences him as a person (i seperate the 'person Prince' from the 'artist Prince here'.

On the other hand the 'artist Prince' has been using JW dogma's in his lyrics since, what is it, 2000? Leading to some toecurlingly annoying lyrics on especially The Rainbow Children, which are quite a contrast with his earlier 'religious lyrics' (which were more universal, general in their appeal, and therefore rather different, contrary what some her say).

Musically i dont think the JW-thing has influenced him a lot: the most annoying aspect i find that he chooses not to play certain songs in concerts anymore or that he changes their lyrics. But you can't say '20ten' is a JW-album based on the music on that album.

OldFriends4Sale said:

TikiColadas said:

I DON'T believe in the opinion that Prince's music has declined at all. In fact Prince's work is still as fresh, different and brilliant as it ever was. I am THANKFUL that anything he has written in the 90's, 2000's and today sound nothing like anything from his 80's work. Sure there are flavors but I enjoy all his work and see it all stand on it's own. Prince is an incredible artist. Thank the MAKER for the fantastic diversity in his work.

ok

Sometimes you gotta step back from the 'fandom' and look n listen without prejudice

With all due respect OF4S, it has nothing to do with the "fandom". I genuinely like all of Prince's work. Are there some songs that I am not really into? Sure. For example "Da, Da, Da" is one.

I enjoy and believe20Ten, LotusFlow3r/MPLSound, Planet Earth, 3121, Musicology and The Rainbow Children are AMAZING albums!

You and others are entitled to your opinion that Prince's music has declined for whatever reason just as I and others are entitled not subscribe to your point of view.

And it has nothing to do with "Fandom". It has everything to do with genuinely like the music.

I appreciate your input.

vitriol said:

tricky99 said:

funny u only seemed concerned about the music and not Prince's well being.

And why should we?

This is a deal, guy: he SELLS music. We BUY it. No neeed for further mental wanking.

Remember now, Prince is a special spiritual guru and the reincarnation of Akhenaton AND Jesus all rolled into one, probably the Buddah too.

Well, everyone has his/her opinion on Prince's post-80's stuff. I think his best work was in the 80's, but he has composed many brilliant songs and some really good albums after that.

But I think it'd be nice to return to the O.P.'s subject, the aspects of Prince's personal life that have influenced in Prince's music. I'd say only that, not mentioning any decline, to avoid the controversy.

After some reflection and after having read the posts here, I think that my initial statement that virtually everyone (or almost everyone) think Prince's music has gradually declined since the 80s was an overstatement. But I think it's a common opinion.

Three persons, HermesReborn, vitriol and Riverman37, have expressed that one problem is that Prince doesn't have people around anymore who say 'no', who review his music critically. This is another factor that's probably pretty importnant and that doesn't help his output. I don't support those long contracts with record companies that most artists seem to be under, but I also don't support to have no or almost no critics around because it can hurt an artist's ability to stay vital over time, the impact becoming even more obvious for someone who was so good to begin with.

Genesia said:

Giovanni777 said:

No, we don't all agree your opinion... The only "decline" has been in music appreciation levels in general.

Folks just have nothing to compare Prince to... The changes, the twists and turns, the defying of age, the lyrical and musical evolution, etc.

Don't you love it when people start with, "I think it's agreed upon by virtually everyone" and proceed to state something that is not only not agreed upon but is, in fact, constantly debated in the very same forum?

Yup

peter430044 said:

After some reflection and after having read the posts here, I think that my initial statement that virtually everyone (or almost everyone) think Prince's music has gradually declined since the 80s was an overstatement. But I think it's a common opinion.

Three persons, HermesReborn, vitriol and Riverman37, have expressed that one problem is that Prince doesn't have people around anymore who say 'no', who review his music critically. This is another factor that's probably pretty importnant and that doesn't help his output. I don't support those long contracts with record companies that most artists seem to be under, but I also don't support to have no or almost no critics around because it can hurt an artist's ability to stay vital over time, the impact becoming even more obvious for someone who was so good to begin with.

You got it buddy.

It shouldn't be a record company or anything like that.

The only thing I could actively compare it to is like prose.

You can be the greatest writer in the world, but unless you have a brilliant editor who understands you and isn't afraid to actively criticize you, you're shit.

Emancipation is the best comparison.

What hinders the album?

It's an explosion of creativity, however it's too much.

There are a lot of songs, that just plain suck, or don't fit in with the album.

We've ALL made our own special mixes of that album, reducing from 3 CDS to a 2 or even 1 CD album.

Prince's entire career after WB, is like Emancipation

It's a wild explosion of unbridled creativity thats both good and bad.

If you use a metaphorical strainer, you get some brilliant work.

New Power Soul and Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic, are atrocious albums.

But they're not all that bad.

He always manages to throw you a "Wasted Kisses" a "The One"

A "Tangerine" and an "I Love U But I Don't Trust You Anymore"

Songs that are really fucking good, and you know that he's still got it.

Prince is an Enigma

He'll make you cringe with Tracks like Lion of Judah.

Then leave you in awe With "Somewhere Here On Earth"

You just learn to deal with it,

and pray that someone finally breaks into the vault and leaks all that material.

Giovanni777 said:

No, we don't all agree your opinion... The only "decline" has been in music appreciation levels in general.

Folks just have nothing to compare Prince to... The changes, the twists and turns, the defying of age, the lyrical and musical evolution, and the longevity.

.

[Edited 9/1/11 14:16pm]

Not true at all. Prince can play...he just hasn't recorded anything new worth listening to more than once or twice. PLENTY of great players out in the world. the lyrical evolution? Really?

Zannaloaf said:

Giovanni777 said:

No, we don't all agree your opinion... The only "decline" has been in music appreciation levels in general.

Folks just have nothing to compare Prince to... The changes, the twists and turns, the defying of age, the lyrical and musical evolution, and the longevity.

.

[Edited 9/1/11 14:16pm]

Not true at all. Prince can play...he just hasn't recorded anything new worth listening to more than once or twice. PLENTY of great players out in the world. the lyrical evolution? Really?

It's a matter of opinion, so how could you say "not true at all"?

NouveauDance said:

I think like most things it's a melting pot of reasons and can't be pin-pointed to one event or time.

I will say though, I think Prince has a certain self-destructive element to his personality that has halted certain 'what if's' in his career. Not self-destructive like drugs etc, like the usual rock and roll excess.

In your opinion, what are some of the most importnant 'what if's' where Prince let the opportunity pass him by?

peter430044 said:

NouveauDance said:

I think like most things it's a melting pot of reasons and can't be pin-pointed to one event or time.

I will say though, I think Prince has a certain self-destructive element to his personality that has halted certain 'what if's' in his career. Not self-destructive like drugs etc, like the usual rock and roll excess.

In your opinion, what are some of the most importnant 'what if's' where Prince let the opportunity pass him by?

I never saw a decline in Prince's music. This is such a simple concept I'm always surprised people who aren't artists don't get it:

All artists ever do, all they CAN do, are self-portraits. All the art they produce is a part of that picture. Think of a picture of yourself, then think of an album, or poem, or sculpture as a tiny part of that whole picture. A part or a 'piece', as in piece of art. BUT there always has to be some of the artist in that peice or it isn't real art. Invariably there are those pieces that will resonate with masses--a 'masterpiece'. This isn't to say one piece is better than any other, just resonated with more people at a given time. I LOVED Purple Rain back in '84. It's now the record I listen to least. I HATED "LoveSexy" with a passion when it came out, but it's got the most plays of any Prince album in my library (and I have them ALL). This is bound to happen with an artist who likes and does so many different styles of music.

So when you talk about Prince's "turd of an album" made in say, 2006 when it's only 2011, there's some ignorance showing there.

To say he's money hungry is silly too. If that was the case he could get back in heavy rotation on the airwaves literally tomorrow if he wanted to (almost every single company has offered-and as a side-note it IS baffling some of the deals he turned down), also he could've gone the guitar hero route when they offered. ot entirely sure why he didn't take that either-would've exposed an entire new generation to his music and at least SOME would become hard-core fans whic is the lifeblood in indie artists. :Sigh:, fact is no one knows what on earth goes on in that man's mind or what his motives are as far as music or anything.

setbro72 said:

peter430044 said:

In your opinion, what are some of the most importnant 'what if's' where Prince let the opportunity pass him by?

I never saw a decline in Prince's music. This is such a simple concept I'm always surprised people who aren't artists don't get it:

All artists ever do, all they CAN do, are self-portraits. All the art they produce is a part of that picture. Think of a picture of yourself, then think of an album, or poem, or sculpture as a tiny part of that whole picture. A part or a 'piece', as in piece of art. BUT there always has to be some of the artist in that peice or it isn't real art. Invariably there are those pieces that will resonate with masses--a 'masterpiece'. This isn't to say one piece is better than any other, just resonated with more people at a given time. I LOVED Purple Rain back in '84. It's now the record I listen to least. I HATED "LoveSexy" with a passion when it came out, but it's got the most plays of any Prince album in my library (and I have them ALL). This is bound to happen with an artist who likes and does so many different styles of music.

So when you talk about Prince's "turd of an album" made in say, 2006 when it's only 2011, there's some ignorance showing there.

To say he's money hungry is silly too. If that was the case he could get back in heavy rotation on the airwaves literally tomorrow if he wanted to (almost every single company has offered-and as a side-note it IS baffling some of the deals he turned down), also he could've gone the guitar hero route when they offered. ot entirely sure why he didn't take that either-would've exposed an entire new generation to his music and at least SOME would become hard-core fans whic is the lifeblood in indie artists. :Sigh:, fact is no one knows what on earth goes on in that man's mind or what his motives are as far as music or anything.

Yes, some albums resonate with more people at a given time than others and I don't think rise, decline or 'just as good as always' are objective conceptions. That's not what it's about, but it's about sharing your own subjective opinion with others and when that opinion is a common opinion there is a social aspect to that. Prince's decline is such an example.

Yes, in hindsight there can be albums that you used to listened to a lot that you rarely listen to anymore and vice versa. If someone doesn't think that could ever happen that is ignorant, but I think most people realize this.

And it's not ignorant per se to say in 2011 that an album from 2006 is bad, because even if you change your mind and think it's a good album many years later, your opinion in 2011 is still valdid as an opinion for that year.

NeonCraxx said:

Zannaloaf said:

Not true at all. Prince can play...he just hasn't recorded anything new worth listening to more than once or twice. PLENTY of great players out in the world. the lyrical evolution? Really?

It's a matter of opinion, so how could you say "not true at all"?

It's not a matter of opinion. I was not specific enough in what I was referring to in the previous post.. I meant the part in regards to"Folks just have nothing to compare Prince to..." There are PLENTY of great musicians to compare.