muleFunk said:

I will go on the record and say this.

If Prince had WB or any other major label backing him in the last 15 years several of the albums that many are "dissing" would be hailed as classics.

Like Karma Sutra and News????

SquirrelMeat said:

muleFunk said:

I will go on the record and say this.

If Prince had WB or any other major label backing him in the last 15 years several of the albums that many are "dissing" would be hailed as classics.

Like Karma Sutra and News????

I do like some of Prince's post-WB material. Some of the stuff on Lotus and MPLSound was good, as was some songs on 20Ten.

Timmy84 said:

SquirrelMeat said:

Like Karma Sutra and News????

I do like some of Prince's post-WB material. Some of the stuff on Lotus and MPLSound was good, as was some songs on 20Ten.

Me too. I think 20ten is a great little album, MPLS is fun and I think that Planet Earth is very underated.

But in the context of my response above, then aint no SOTT.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

Chaos is not a stumble!

Heck no. It's a head-over-heels tumble down an entire flight of metal stairs!

Lammastide said:

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

Chaos is not a stumble!

Heck no. It's a head-over-heels tumble down an entire flight of metal stairs!

I LOVE that album!

All of you are proving my point. Those albums are examples of those that people missed out on because of various reasons. IMO Chaos is just as good as ATWIAD.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

Lammastide said:

Heck no. It's a head-over-heels tumble down an entire flight of metal stairs!

I LOVE that album!

I have no less respect for you, my good friend.

muleFunk said:

I will go on the record and say this.

If Prince had WB or any other major label backing him in the last 15 years several of the albums that many are "dissing" would be hailed as classics.

If you think The Truth would have been hailed as a classic, then you need to be from prince.org immediately.

muleFunk said:

All of you are proving my point. Those albums are examples of those that people missed out on because of various reasons. IMO Chaos is just as good as ATWIAD.

Lol, we are on a site of Prince fanatics! People who tend to glorify every fart Prince puts on record. If you really think Chaos is as good as ATWIAD, something is really wrong with your musical expertise.

SquirrelMeat said:

I'm a bigger fan than most of the post WB stuff, buy weighing it all up, the WB era material from was far superior.

Did Prince suddenly lose it musically when he left WB? Some will argue yes, with the albums as evidence. I don't think Prince has lost it musically at all.

So the question should be not which do I prefer, but why do I think the independent era is weaker?

I think the problem stems from the fact that the record company was the only entity EVER in Prince's career to question and reject his work. They were the only other party with a serious commerical interest and the only people around Prince that were not "yes" men. Of course, this is the very reason Prince eventually wanted out, because he felt a "Slave", but the fact is, the power that WB had to say no actually improved Prince's output.

WB spend most of the partnership strangling Prince's output. This did two things. Firstly, it usually focused his mind on one concept at a time. He only had one shot a year to say something to the world and I think the output was often more connected and whole.

Secondly, it restricted his volume. Meaning the better cuts made the grade. Sure there are some great outtakes, but as a whole, the best tracks made the album. Without that restriction, we got bloated productions like Emacipation.

I also think that technology played a part in making the WB material feel stronger. Again it's about the effect of restricting Prince's output. Vinyl made Prince think about what he could get out. Its no coincidence that the "Classic" albums were all native to vinyl. The advent of Prince albums native to CD in the 90's led to Prince leaving track on albums that would not have made the cut previously.

Prince is still making great material, he just doesn't have a foil to make him raise his game like WB, and that has made him lazy with his production, and allowed him to put out below par material all over the place.

The new good stuff is there, its just drowned out with mediocrity.

I've not posted for a while (nothing new on the Prince horizon for me to get excited about) but as always Squirrel comes along with a fair and constructive viewpoint. I agree with ALL of these points but will also add something else...

During the 80s Prince WAS THE ZEITGEIST. He was different. He was unique. He started trends (Minneapolis Sound) rather than followed or incorporated trends as happened in the 90s.

However, NO ARTIST remains in vogue or in tune/driving the Zeitgeist for more than a decade or so. That is because it is a generational thing. Each generation want their own soundtrack rather than the one either their parents or their older siblings listened to.

Prince had his day in the 80s. That is NOT to say his music became any less good (IMHO) but as Squirrel said the editing wasn't there. In addition there was nothing new to say/do/sound like. Prince had pretty much done it by the mid 90s anyway so he was always going to be in danger of repeating himself or becoming a self parody (like ALL artists eventually do - for example, look at the ex-Beatles solo work - hmmm sounds quite like the Beatles for the most part right!).

I think 3121 is an awesome album and had that been released by WB in the 80s we would all be saying it was a classic. However, it was 20 years later. Musical tastes change. The zeitgeist changes.

If you take all of Prince's post WB output and did a judicial edit on it there is no doubt you would be able top put together 5 or 6 classic albums (although my playlist would no doubt differ to yours) BUT it still wouldn't be as exciting as the output from the 80s because it wouldn't be NEW or different as we have already heard Prince do it before!

So while this thread uses WB and post WB as the yardstick I would say it is early career vs late career. It is a trend that is there for all artists whether you like them or not.

muleFunk said:

I will go on the record and say this.

If Prince had WB or any other major label backing him in the last 15 years several of the albums that many are "dissing" would be hailed as classics.

Which is exactly why Musicology and 3121 are still regarded highly here. There's nothing great on those records, but they had the commercial comeback push of a major label. That "nostalgia" that people talk about can be attributed to the fondness for this era, not just the 80s. Because there's nothing special on Musicology or 3121 - but they got a big push, Prince was on TV again, toured and there were a couple of promo videos that did pretty well considering.

I think even a mediocre Prince album (and there's been many in the past 15 years) could be a decent commercial hit if Prince was willing to follow through on what he starts - 4 singles, videos, TV promo and tour is all it takes. Like D&P, which goes back to what you said about that album being a commercial hit, but bummed out on by fans as commercial pap.

There have been a good few tracks that could've been hits in the past decade and a half, but Prince isn't putting in the ground work to get it done - obviously he doesn't have the team around him either of the glory days - in terms of management etc, which always help - I'm sure it's fun to meet megolmaniac stars like Prince, but would you want to have a long meeting with him in a boardroom whilst he's sucking a lollypop and rolling his eyes every time someone mentions something about facts and figures?

Prince is never gonna be zeitgeist again, but he could have another recognised 'classic' album if he put the work in. Does he want to put the work in? I dunno, but he obviously wants to reap the rewards of a commercial hit because he keeps trying. Personally, I just want good music - I would've loved to see 'Crimson & Clover' do well, and '$' be a new dance classic - but I am just happy he managed to put out a good record at the end of the day.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

Chaos is not a stumble!

Agreed! I love that album!

funkomatic said:

muleFunk said:

All of you are proving my point. Those albums are examples of those that people missed out on because of various reasons. IMO Chaos is just as good as ATWIAD.

Lol, we are on a site of Prince fanatics! People who tend to glorify every fart Prince puts on record. If you really think Chaos is as good as ATWIAD, something is really wrong with your musical expertise.

Let me put it like this if Chaos was released in 1985 and ATWIAD was released in 1996 the outcomes would be reversed.

This is all opinion people.

One persons opinion is not better than another.

What we call classics others call indulgence.

NouveauDance said:

muleFunk said:

I will go on the record and say this.

If Prince had WB or any other major label backing him in the last 15 years several of the albums that many are "dissing" would be hailed as classics.

Which is exactly why Musicology and 3121 are still regarded highly here. There's nothing great on those records, but they had the commercial comeback push of a major label. That "nostalgia" that people talk about can be attributed to the fondness for this era, not just the 80s. Because there's nothing special on Musicology or 3121 - but they got a big push, Prince was on TV again, toured and there were a couple of promo videos that did pretty well considering.

I think even a mediocre Prince album (and there's been many in the past 15 years) could be a decent commercial hit if Prince was willing to follow through on what he starts - 4 singles, videos, TV promo and tour is all it takes. Like D&P, which goes back to what you said about that album being a commercial hit, but bummed out on by fans as commercial pap.

There have been a good few tracks that could've been hits in the past decade and a half, but Prince isn't putting in the ground work to get it done - obviously he doesn't have the team around him either of the glory days - in terms of management etc, which always help - I'm sure it's fun to meet megolmaniac stars like Prince, but would you want to have a long meeting with him in a boardroom whilst he's sucking a lollypop and rolling his eyes every time someone mentions something about facts and figures?

Prince is never gonna be zeitgeist again, but he could have another recognised 'classic' album if he put the work in. Does he want to put the work in? I dunno, but he obviously wants to reap the rewards of a commercial hit because he keeps trying. Personally, I just want good music - I would've loved to see 'Crimson & Clover' do well, and '$' be a new dance classic - but I am just happy he managed to put out a good record at the end of the day.

I have to disagree with you on this point. If you look at the albums he did from late 1996-2003, they got progressively weirder and less commercial. Sure, Rave Un2 the Joy Fantastic was an obvious attempt at a hit album but he also had albums like The Truth and One Nite Alone-Piano which had very limited commercial appeal. Then there was The Rainbow Children, whether you love it or hate it it is very hard to make a case that it is an accessible album. What about "The War?" That song is the very definition of esoteric. Plus we had three instrumental albums during this era (Xpectation, N.E.W.S. and (most of) C-Note). You also have to consider that a lot of the "pop" music that Prince was releasing during the later part of these years were recent vault tracks that most fans thought were average at best. I was beginning to doubt that Prince would ever release a mainstream pop album again! When he did, and when I found that I enjoyed it much more than most of the pop music he had released in several years, I was a very happy Prince fan and I suspect that there were many others like me. The fact that Musicology was on a major label had nothing to do with the reason I enjoyed it. The one big positive about it being on a major label was that it was very easy to find a copy.

Having said all of that I will admit that after eight years of "commercial" Prince music I am kind of craving something a bit weird and experimental from him. I've said before that it would be ideal if he alternated between releasing more a more challenging album with a pop album. That way hopefully he would satisfy everyone.

funkomatic said:

muleFunk said:

All of you are proving my point. Those albums are examples of those that people missed out on because of various reasons. IMO Chaos is just as good as ATWIAD.

Lol, we are on a site of Prince fanatics! People who tend to glorify every fart Prince puts on record. If you really think Chaos is as good as ATWIAD, something is really wrong with your musical expertise.

Graycap23 said:

Prince, unlike so many artist, has evolved over the years.

Can u honestly ask 4 more from an artist?

jehovah's witnesses don't believe in evolution!!

muleFunk said:

All of you are proving my point. Those albums are examples of those that people missed out on because of various reasons. IMO Chaos is just as good as ATWIAD.

you're mental!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HomeSquid said:

WB kept him special. Quality control. He left WB and tarnished his legacy with too much mediocre material. Very little of what he has released since leaving WB will have any lasting impact. You could fill out one CD from all his music since 1996. His WB output will always be the stuff that matters

if wb controlled him so much, they would not have released stuff like jughead

paisleypark4 said:

funkomatic said:

Lol, we are on a site of Prince fanatics! People who tend to glorify every fart Prince puts on record. If you really think Chaos is as good as ATWIAD, something is really wrong with your musical expertise.

Whats wrong is that you are comparing!!!! They are two diferent types of albums. No one is paying any atttention..you guys are fucking comparing albums to eachother like they sound the same....

Do you really think that I'm that stupid?

Of course they are totally different type of albums. But what you can compare is such an abstract thing like "quality". Ever heard of it?

If Prince writes a song, I judge the song on different levels. For example: Is it an important contribution to the music scene? Is it a good song in comparison to Prince's existing efforts? etc.

At the end of this process you get an impression of the "quality" of a song or an album. And that's what you actually CAN compare to each other!

[Edited 5/14/11 9:41am]

SquirrelMeat said:

I'm a bigger fan than most of the post WB stuff, buy weighing it all up, the WB era material from was far superior.

Did Prince suddenly lose it musically when he left WB? Some will argue yes, with the albums as evidence. I don't think Prince has lost it musically at all.

So the question should be not which do I prefer, but why do I think the independent era is weaker?

I think the problem stems from the fact that the record company was the only entity EVER in Prince's career to question and reject his work. They were the only other party with a serious commerical interest and the only people around Prince that were not "yes" men. Of course, this is the very reason Prince eventually wanted out, because he felt a "Slave", but the fact is, the power that WB had to say no actually improved Prince's output.

WB spend most of the partnership strangling Prince's output. This did two things. Firstly, it usually focused his mind on one concept at a time. He only had one shot a year to say something to the world and I think the output was often more connected and whole.

Secondly, it restricted his volume. Meaning the better cuts made the grade. Sure there are some great outtakes, but as a whole, the best tracks made the album. Without that restriction, we got bloated productions like Emacipation.

I also think that technology played a part in making the WB material feel stronger. Again it's about the effect of restricting Prince's output. Vinyl made Prince think about what he could get out. Its no coincidence that the "Classic" albums were all native to vinyl. The advent of Prince albums native to CD in the 90's led to Prince leaving track on albums that would not have made the cut previously.

Prince is still making great material, he just doesn't have a foil to make him raise his game like WB, and that has made him lazy with his production, and allowed him to put out below par material all over the place.

The new good stuff is there, its just drowned out with mediocrity.

I agree completely with SquirrelMeat's comment. I would add that WB didn't have to come down on Prince with a heavy hand to motivate him to make brilliant music. At least through the writing and recording of Purple Rain, Prince hadn't climbed to the mountaintop in terms of fame, and he had to keep pushing himself to reach that level. Even after Purple Rain was released and became a huge success, there was no guarantee that the spotlight would last. Prince could have gone the way of Meat Loaf or Peter Frampton, having a gigantic hit but not much afterward. By the 1990s, however, Prince had earned a superstar status that would never go away regardless of what he put out, so he didn't have to push himself as much anymore. This is a common story with great songwriters.

[Edited 5/14/11 10:05am]

Graycap23 said:

Prince, unlike so many artist, has evolved over the years.

Can u honestly ask 4 more from an artist?

You hit the nail on the head. It's all about EVOLUTION! I'm not going to say that 1996 to present Prince is all "forgettable" or "horrible" because it's not. Artistically, he has released some EXCELLENT work since 1996.

I think most people here would like for Prince to release the same albums over and over again. They would be content with Parade pt 2, ATWIAD pt 2, Purple Rain pt. 2, Dirty Mind pt 2 and Controversy pt 2.

When he does manage to challenge himself with an album (TRC, 3121, Emancipation, Lotus/MPLS) people call it horrible or dull. I just don't get it. Those albums all have great trax on them and are cohesive pieces of work. Are they 1999 pt 2?...NO. They manage 2 stand on their own.

I think most people here would like for Prince to release the same albums over and over again. They would be content with Parade pt 2, ATWIAD pt 2, Purple Rain pt. 2, Dirty Mind pt 2 and Controversy pt 2.

When he does manage to challenge himself with an album (TRC, 3121, Emancipation, Lotus/MPLS) people call it horrible or dull. I just don't get it. Those albums all have great trax on them and are cohesive pieces of work. Are they 1999 pt 2?...NO. They manage 2 stand on their own.

You are wrong on this point my friend.

We're looking for great albums with great songs... Prince's music was exciting and dangerous and his lyrics were fascinating. Has he written a lyric as brilliant as Raspberry Beret since?

The guy was incredible once... he's now very good but the muse isn't there. Not sure if that is his fault or not, but something's missing from the music these days. There are moments but they are rare.

J

even if the WB material didnt beat the pants off the post, just hearing him uncensored would tip the hell out of the scales

[Edited 5/14/11 16:10pm]

SquirrelMeat said:

I'm a bigger fan than most of the post WB stuff, buy weighing it all up, the WB era material from was far superior.

Did Prince suddenly lose it musically when he left WB? Some will argue yes, with the albums as evidence. I don't think Prince has lost it musically at all.

So the question should be not which do I prefer, but why do I think the independent era is weaker?

I think the problem stems from the fact that the record company was the only entity EVER in Prince's career to question and reject his work. They were the only other party with a serious commerical interest and the only people around Prince that were not "yes" men. Of course, this is the very reason Prince eventually wanted out, because he felt a "Slave", but the fact is, the power that WB had to say no actually improved Prince's output.

WB spend most of the partnership strangling Prince's output. This did two things. Firstly, it usually focused his mind on one concept at a time. He only had one shot a year to say something to the world and I think the output was often more connected and whole.

Secondly, it restricted his volume. Meaning the better cuts made the grade. Sure there are some great outtakes, but as a whole, the best tracks made the album. Without that restriction, we got bloated productions like Emacipation.

I also think that technology played a part in making the WB material feel stronger. Again it's about the effect of restricting Prince's output. Vinyl made Prince think about what he could get out. Its no coincidence that the "Classic" albums were all native to vinyl. The advent of Prince albums native to CD in the 90's led to Prince leaving track on albums that would not have made the cut previously.

Prince is still making great material, he just doesn't have a foil to make him raise his game like WB, and that has made him lazy with his production, and allowed him to put out below par material all over the place.

The new good stuff is there, its just drowned out with mediocrity.

jayARDAHB said:

I think most people here would like for Prince to release the same albums over and over again. They would be content with Parade pt 2, ATWIAD pt 2, Purple Rain pt. 2, Dirty Mind pt 2 and Controversy pt 2.

When he does manage to challenge himself with an album (TRC, 3121, Emancipation, Lotus/MPLS) people call it horrible or dull. I just don't get it. Those albums all have great trax on them and are cohesive pieces of work. Are they 1999 pt 2?...NO. They manage 2 stand on their own.

You are wrong on this point my friend.

We're looking for great albums with great songs... Prince's music was exciting and dangerous and his lyrics were fascinating. Has he written a lyric as brilliant as Raspberry Beret since?

The guy was incredible once... he's now very good but the muse isn't there. Not sure if that is his fault or not, but something's missing from the music these days. There are moments but they are rare.

J

That's all a matter of opinion. He has still managed to write and release great material. I think a lot of people (not necessarily saying u are one of those) feel that since he chooses not to swear anymore feel that his lyrics and music aren't "edgy" anymore. I don't feel that way. When Prince wants to be "dirty" or "edgy", he can still do it.

Now, I'm not jumping up and down over 20Ten, NEWS, or a lot of other projects/songs released since 1996, but I do feel that Prince's songwriting has grown over the years.

I still think the guy is incredible based on his work alone. You just don't expect a 50+ year old man (no matter how creative he is) to keep writing the same type of material.

I'm just thankful that Prince still releases new music and is still writing. I'm also glad that he hasn't turned into a Rolling Stones, Ozzy Osborne, MJ (what he did after Invincible) and countless others and that is start banking on "old" material. I would rather see him still trying to break new ground on marketing and promotion while releasing new material; instead of releasing 10 greatest hits packages every 3 or so years.

paisleypark4 said:

MarquessMarq said:

How about both? What's with the constant need to compare one era to the next? Same brotha, different music, in the end it's all subjective.

U know nobody is going to pay that any attention in this thread sadly..they rather compare.

I don't get it either. I just like what I like whether it's pre or post WB.

I love 3121 and Lotusflower as much as Parade or PR...on the other hand, I don't much care for either Lovesexy or 20Ten. Others will have different preferences. It's totally subjective.

robertgeorgeakabob said:

Graycap23 said:

Prince, unlike so many artist, has evolved over the years.

Can u honestly ask 4 more from an artist?

jehovah's witnesses don't believe in evolution!!

What does that TELL U about Prince?

Why do we even care to compare (10 times a week in 10 different threads)? Honestly do Miles Davis fans compare "Tutu" to "A Kind Of Blue"? Do David Bowie fans compare "Ziggy Stardust" with "Hours"?

Prince said it as early as 1996: "My only competition is me in the past". Dammit he was sooooo right

databank said:

Why do we even care to compare (10 times a week in 10 different threads)? Honestly do Miles Davis fans compare "Tutu" to "A Kind Of Blue"? Do David Bowie fans compare "Ziggy Stardust" with "Hours"?

Prince said it as early as 1996: "My only competition is me in the past". Dammit he was sooooo right

Yes, of course people compare Bowie and Miles Davis' later work to their early work. They do the same with The Stones, Bob Dylan, Madonna, Michael Jackson, The Beach Boys and so many other artists. It is a very fair comparison, because you are looking at the entire catalog of an entertainer and fairly noting their strengths and weaknesses. Any objective look at a career is going to note peaks and valleys, and any great artist is going to have hits and misses. Patterns are created from their output, trends can be seen with perspective and artistic growth can be charted (and appreciated) when someone steps back and examines a career. It is impossible to not hear the difference in The Beatles' music from 1963 compared to 1969. Entire books have been written comparing the two periods, their influences, their output and their legacy. The same about other artists/performers: Picasso, Walt Disney, Michael Jordan, even The Simpsons have all had their legacy scrutinized. Sometimes the comparisons are flattering and sometimes they are critical, but it is very common to do.

We care because we enjoy the music and want more than we have gotten from just listening to it. We care because to many of us on the org, Prince's music is the soundtrack to our lives.

Regarding comparisons of Bowie, just within the last week I've had two great conversations (one with a co-worker and one with Per Nilsen) comparing Bowie's most recent output to his early work. Both came up very favorably for Bowie.