.

[Edited 1/25/17 14:30pm]

lopez568 said:

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

I see that a lot of times, in threads like these and I keep asking, "What exactly is it that he does SO much of...for his fans?" but I can never seem to get a straight answer.

They usually consist of ramblings about concerts...and being grateful that he allows us the priviledge to spend our money...on the honor of basking in his presence...but if you have a different answer...I'd really like to know.

.

[Edited 2/3/11 14:04pm]

No problem, I have several:

1. If you require such talent without spending money then that's pretty far-fetched. However, in this case you cannot complain as Prince has given you music for almost next to nothing through purchasing a newspaper or attending his concerts.
2. Take the Earth tour for example. £31.21 for any ticket at the o2 arena. Compared with Britney Spears who charged over £50 to sit in the gods at the same arena and sang 1 out of 20 songs live.
3. His career is ALIVE. He releases almost an album every year. This is amazing when compared with other such heralded artists who are still worshipped to this day but have not released such a consistant output (Bob Dylan, Stevie Wonder etc.)
4. He challenges the music industry (through innovative ways of releasing music). I can't think of anyone else with his level of fame and stature that does so.

I'm a little tired and cannot type more at this stage

Completely agree! The perfect example of my argument being people who were complaining about 20ten, when they only paid a pound or so for the privilege of owning that music. Whatever the reason for him doing this, it's hardly being mean to his fans by giving them his music at an amazing price.

Whiskas31 said:

Spinlight said:

My argument isn't hypocritical, though. I'm not making assumptions; those actual words have been spoken on these here boards. Anyone acting as even a passing witness to some of these discussions can attest to that. You cannot point me to a thread where someone states they want Prince to release a perfect record.

Your entire post is an argument about why people should not act the way they do and why they should act the way YOU do. This is opinion vs opinion, once again. And a concept that many people who, like you, apologize for Prince will often have.

Judging by your wording, you are implicating that those opinions were the same as ones held by myself, hence the hipocracy.

If you want me to find a post where someone is asking for 'a perfect record' as an absolute, then no i probably wouldn't find one. But again, reiterating myself, that's not my point.

It's tiresome having a discussion with someone who doesn't feel the need to read my responses, to me that's not a reasoned argument, just a one sided response. I agree it's opinion vs opinion, i'm listening to your points and commenting. You just seem to be reading my argument to fit in with what you think i'm saying.

And again, you are making assumption that i'm apologising for Prince, how am i in any way apologising?

Again, I read your posts. I don't agree with them. You did accuse people. The whole fucking title of your thread is accusatory in nature. Can't you comprehend your own words?

"It seems that Prince fans love him for the diversity of his music, as long as it fits in with their idea of a perfect Prince album. "

It seems this way? Elaborate on what basis you draw this conclusion from, cite references and examples. It SEEMS that you're generalizing.

"Recently, Prince has obviously been listening to his fans (despite the many complaints that he just doesn't care) by releasing both a guitar led album Lotus Flower AND MPLS album, with crap loads of synths and Linn drums, yet as usual his fans just complain that it's not as good as XXX etc."

It's their right to not like something. (This is assuming your assuming is correct. And no, it's not based on fact.)

Additionally, Prince didn't ask for people's input to create LotusFlower. He devised that all on his own. This mythical question and answer involving a rock album and a MPLS sound album occurred in the 90s when he had an internet presence. And it wasn't so much a question and answer, rather a poll whereupon people chose rock album moreso than the rest of the choices.

YOU are infusing meanig here, Prince isn't expressing it. You attribute some sort of fan-input to LotusFlower and this claim comes out of thin air.

"It is a general consensus that Prince's music isn't as good as his 80's stuff. How could it be?"

I'm not sure what you're asking here. Who do you consider to be Prince's musical peers? U2 and those people you listed aren't on the same creative level as Prince. You're talking about someone who has more songs BOOTLEGGED than some of those artists have ever RELEASED! That's quite a huge fjord levvied right between Prince and any peer you could associate him to. Don't compare Prince's output and the quality therein to any artist less proficient for as many opportunities as there might be for something magical, there's equal opportunity for something awful. This is where talk of "editors" come in.

Yet us spolit Prince fans expect it, why? How can one man, who's released so many classic songs, songs that any other artist could ever dream of making, be able to continually release ground breaking music. Why can't us Prince fans be happy that we have such an amazing vast back catalogue to dip into, instead of just constantly complaining about his new stuff.

Maybe you are new to the org, but we have lovely threads created by lovely posters about his back catalog. I recommend you check out threads by Swa and OldFriends4Sale. OF4S, specifically, goes out of his/her way to provide full, relevant, inclusive, and fun threads about your favorite eras, albums, etc. Browse at your leisure, I really do recommend them as when people get going, they really get going in there and it typically remains positive. In fact, we just had a WONDERFUL thread that I'm betting was made totally off the cuff about small factoids that don't warrant their own thread. Some really good info in there and as long as people keep bumping it, more info will come.

Another complaint i've heard is that his 90's stuff was not as good, but if you listen to it in retrospect most artists would give their right arm to be able to make music to that standard.. and that's music from an artist who reached his peak years before.

Again, this is just people being critical of art. Who cares? They don't NEED to like it. You keep trying to appeal to someone's sensibilities as if they don't know all the stuff you just wrote about. That doesn't change the fact that music is either bad or good, depending on the ears of the listener(s). It's not going to hurt Prince's feelings that people criticize the artistic validity of his early 90s work or the commerciality of his late 90s stuff. This is why Prince org is here, in part. To discuss opinions, both negative and positive. It's been 30 years. There's a lot of shit to wade through.

It seems there is a stigma attached to every Prince album. Fans expect so much from each release that it diminishes the fact that each album is not as bad as people think. For example, OutKast released the 'Love Below' album and Andre 3000 was hailed as a genius and the next Prince. Yet around the same time Prince released 'The Gold Album'. For me, this album pisses all over 'Love Below', and had it been released by any other artist it would have been hailed a masterpiece.. yet all plaudits were given to the OutKast album.

1) Andre 3000 cannot cup the balls of the man holding a candle to Prince. Let's put that out there. No matter what critical fawning a new artist gets, one of them in the batch is allllllways gonna be the next Prince, Madonna, and MJ. I've seen a few Next Stevie Wonders, next Pink Floyds, and next New Kids on the Block, too. But Andre 3000, again, has not even come remotely close to releasing the sheer volume of even Prince's outtakes much less touching the craftsmanship of the work.

2) The Gold Experience was released in 1995 and was a critical success. The Love Below/Speakerboxxx was released in 2003. What on earth do you MEAN it was released around the same time? Wrong decade, wrong application of your theory. The Gold Experience, unfortunately, did not fare well because of the lack of promo and the immense confusion over his tribulations w/ WB which (at that time) were at their peak. Sorry, but TMBGITW should have been released closer to the Gold Album or shoulda been put on Come. Period. The difference in time was almost a year and the album version wasn't even the same as the single version (totally different instrumentation and an extended arrangement, making it more like a remix than the version that shot to the top-ish area of the charts).

Even his most recent music has been of a good standard. As i mentioned before, it's subjective. But for me, his current music is still of a good standard and i enjoy each new release.

Good! I am glad you have happiness in your life. I'm sure you have much more happiness about much more stuff. No one is saying you shouldn't like something. If you could reciprocate that thought, this thread wouldn't exist.

He's even trying out his old Linn synth sound with the MPLS and 20ten albums to please his fans who missed that stuff.. so cut the guy some slack.

Cut him some slack? Why? LMAO. He puts a product out there to be judged and listened to. Why the hell should people be completely forced to LIKE it?!?! That makes zero sense. Don't think out of your butt, think out of your brain.

And for those fans who simply DON'T LIKE THE SONGS?

And for those fans who simply DON'T LIKE THE LINN DRUMS?

And for those fans who simply DON'T WANT RETREADS?

And for those fans who simply DON'T WANT SONGS ABOUT CULTISH RELIGIONS?

And for those fans who simply DON'T SHARE YOUR OPINION?

Well, you can't please everybody.

Whiskas31 said:

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

I see that a lot of times, in threads like these and I keep asking, "What exactly is it that he does SO much of...for his fans?" but I can never seem to get a straight answer.

They usually consist of ramblings about concerts...and being grateful that he allows us the priviledge to spend our money...on the honor of basking in his presence...but if you have a different answer...I'd really like to know.

.

[Edited 2/3/11 14:04pm]

But no one is asking you to spend your money!

Really? Apparently, that would be why I didn't say anyone was.

You're a happy and content Prince fan, right? So why are you so hostile towards differing opinions when it comes to Prince? No one is trying to change your opinion, nor what you find enjoyable.

I agree Whiskas.

I appreciate the man and his music over the years... some are stellar and some not so stellar....I appreciate it all and I will miss him if he decides to retire early.....if I didn't care for him or was just a casual fan...or maybe I used to be a big fan and I'm not so much anymore...hey that's all cool...but why the hell would I join a fan site decicate to the man.

He's not perfect...He certainly has his handful of flaws....I'm aware that he sleeps, eats and shits like the rest of us...but for the life of me I will never understand why some people who seem to just detest everything about him at least 95% of the time feel the need to belong to a website dedicated to him and talk about him almost on a daily basis.

I mean not everyone that belongs to this site is all up in the Music & More forum. Things are jumping in other forums in this site.... Quite entertaining. But to spent most of your time in this forum being negative all the time. Isn't that tiring? That requires a great deal of energy for someone you dont care for

Hell maybe those people are the superfans who have acquired every single bootleg and every single piece of music he has recorded..and so they are bored.

I am constantly finding something new by him..so i'm never bored...even if his material today doesn't match the absolute greats from him..I dont mind. I dont listen to music for just one time......I'm a music fanatic so his music is something I will treasure for a lifetime and for that I am grateful.

lopez568 said:

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

I see that a lot of times, in threads like these and I keep asking, "What exactly is it that he does SO much of...for his fans?" but I can never seem to get a straight answer.

They usually consist of ramblings about concerts...and being grateful that he allows us the priviledge to spend our money...on the honor of basking in his presence...but if you have a different answer...I'd really like to know.

.

[Edited 2/3/11 14:04pm]

No problem, I have several:

1. If you require such talent without spending money then that's pretty far-fetched. However, in this case you cannot complain as Prince has given you music for almost next to nothing through purchasing a newspaper or attending his concerts.
2. Take the Earth tour for example. £31.21 for any ticket at the o2 arena. Compared with Britney Spears who charged over £50 to sit in the gods at the same arena and sang 1 out of 20 songs live.
3. His career is ALIVE. He releases almost an album every year. This is amazing when compared with other such heralded artists who are still worshipped to this day but have not released such a consistant output (Bob Dylan, Stevie Wonder etc.)
4. He challenges the music industry (through innovative ways of releasing music). I can't think of anyone else with his level of fame and stature that does so.

I'm a little tired and cannot type more at this stage

1. Well, considering how much money I've willfully and happily spent on Prince over the years. Having bought and paid for pretty much every album, single, 12 inch, cassette, maxi-single, cd, vhs and dvd...he put out the first illustrious 20 years of his career. Along with countless posters, buttons, pins, earrings, keychains, t-shirts, concert tickets and website memberships. I think it's pretty far-fetched to think that I require such talent without spending money.

2. I live in America, the Earth tour meant nothing to me. Although, I'd have happily paid him $31.21 to see it, in good streaming quality on his website but that wasn't an option.

3. His career is ALIVE because his "spoilt" fans didn't let it DIE, when he couldn't get a record deal, air play nor exposure and was doing Hit N' Run shows at little rinky dink joints, all over the place to keep his bills paid.

4. I'm sorry but Prince has not challenged the music industry in years.

None of that answered my question of..."what exactly is it that he does SO much of...for his fans?" But I do appreciate you taking the time to respond, even though we don't quite agree.

.

[Edited 2/3/11 15:35pm]

Spinlight said:

Whiskas31 said:

Judging by your wording, you are implicating that those opinions were the same as ones held by myself, hence the hipocracy.

If you want me to find a post where someone is asking for 'a perfect record' as an absolute, then no i probably wouldn't find one. But again, reiterating myself, that's not my point.

It's tiresome having a discussion with someone who doesn't feel the need to read my responses, to me that's not a reasoned argument, just a one sided response. I agree it's opinion vs opinion, i'm listening to your points and commenting. You just seem to be reading my argument to fit in with what you think i'm saying.

And again, you are making assumption that i'm apologising for Prince, how am i in any way apologising?

Again, I read your posts. I don't agree with them. You did accuse people. The whole fucking title of your thread is accusatory in nature. Can't you comprehend your own words?

"It seems that Prince fans love him for the diversity of his music, as long as it fits in with their idea of a perfect Prince album. "

It seems this way? Elaborate on what basis you draw this conclusion from, cite references and examples. It SEEMS that you're generalizing.

"Recently, Prince has obviously been listening to his fans (despite the many complaints that he just doesn't care) by releasing both a guitar led album Lotus Flower AND MPLS album, with crap loads of synths and Linn drums, yet as usual his fans just complain that it's not as good as XXX etc."

It's their right to not like something. (This is assuming your assuming is correct. And no, it's not based on fact.)

Additionally, Prince didn't ask for people's input to create LotusFlower. He devised that all on his own. This mythical question and answer involving a rock album and a MPLS sound album occurred in the 90s when he had an internet presence. And it wasn't so much a question and answer, rather a poll whereupon people chose rock album moreso than the rest of the choices.

YOU are infusing meanig here, Prince isn't expressing it. You attribute some sort of fan-input to LotusFlower and this claim comes out of thin air.

"It is a general consensus that Prince's music isn't as good as his 80's stuff. How could it be?"

I'm not sure what you're asking here. Who do you consider to be Prince's musical peers? U2 and those people you listed aren't on the same creative level as Prince. You're talking about someone who has more songs BOOTLEGGED than some of those artists have ever RELEASED! That's quite a huge fjord levvied right between Prince and any peer you could associate him to. Don't compare Prince's output and the quality therein to any artist less proficient for as many opportunities as there might be for something magical, there's equal opportunity for something awful. This is where talk of "editors" come in.

Yet us spolit Prince fans expect it, why? How can one man, who's released so many classic songs, songs that any other artist could ever dream of making, be able to continually release ground breaking music. Why can't us Prince fans be happy that we have such an amazing vast back catalogue to dip into, instead of just constantly complaining about his new stuff.

Maybe you are new to the org, but we have lovely threads created by lovely posters about his back catalog. I recommend you check out threads by Swa and OldFriends4Sale. OF4S, specifically, goes out of his/her way to provide full, relevant, inclusive, and fun threads about your favorite eras, albums, etc. Browse at your leisure, I really do recommend them as when people get going, they really get going in there and it typically remains positive. In fact, we just had a WONDERFUL thread that I'm betting was made totally off the cuff about small factoids that don't warrant their own thread. Some really good info in there and as long as people keep bumping it, more info will come.

Another complaint i've heard is that his 90's stuff was not as good, but if you listen to it in retrospect most artists would give their right arm to be able to make music to that standard.. and that's music from an artist who reached his peak years before.

Again, this is just people being critical of art. Who cares? They don't NEED to like it. You keep trying to appeal to someone's sensibilities as if they don't know all the stuff you just wrote about. That doesn't change the fact that music is either bad or good, depending on the ears of the listener(s). It's not going to hurt Prince's feelings that people criticize the artistic validity of his early 90s work or the commerciality of his late 90s stuff. This is why Prince org is here, in part. To discuss opinions, both negative and positive. It's been 30 years. There's a lot of shit to wade through.

It seems there is a stigma attached to every Prince album. Fans expect so much from each release that it diminishes the fact that each album is not as bad as people think. For example, OutKast released the 'Love Below' album and Andre 3000 was hailed as a genius and the next Prince. Yet around the same time Prince released 'The Gold Album'. For me, this album pisses all over 'Love Below', and had it been released by any other artist it would have been hailed a masterpiece.. yet all plaudits were given to the OutKast album.

1) Andre 3000 cannot cup the balls of the man holding a candle to Prince. Let's put that out there. No matter what critical fawning a new artist gets, one of them in the batch is allllllways gonna be the next Prince, Madonna, and MJ. I've seen a few Next Stevie Wonders, next Pink Floyds, and next New Kids on the Block, too. But Andre 3000, again, has not even come remotely close to releasing the sheer volume of even Prince's outtakes much less touching the craftsmanship of the work.

2) The Gold Experience was released in 1995 and was a critical success. The Love Below/Speakerboxxx was released in 2003. What on earth do you MEAN it was released around the same time? Wrong decade, wrong application of your theory. The Gold Experience, unfortunately, did not fare well because of the lack of promo and the immense confusion over his tribulations w/ WB which (at that time) were at their peak. Sorry, but TMBGITW should have been released closer to the Gold Album or shoulda been put on Come. Period. The difference in time was almost a year and the album version wasn't even the same as the single version (totally different instrumentation and an extended arrangement, making it more like a remix than the version that shot to the top-ish area of the charts).

Even his most recent music has been of a good standard. As i mentioned before, it's subjective. But for me, his current music is still of a good standard and i enjoy each new release.

Good! I am glad you have happiness in your life. I'm sure you have much more happiness about much more stuff. No one is saying you shouldn't like something. If you could reciprocate that thought, this thread wouldn't exist.

He's even trying out his old Linn synth sound with the MPLS and 20ten albums to please his fans who missed that stuff.. so cut the guy some slack.

Cut him some slack? Why? LMAO. He puts a product out there to be judged and listened to. Why the hell should people be completely forced to LIKE it?!?! That makes zero sense. Don't think out of your butt, think out of your brain.

And for those fans who simply DON'T LIKE THE SONGS?

And for those fans who simply DON'T LIKE THE LINN DRUMS?

And for those fans who simply DON'T WANT RETREADS?

And for those fans who simply DON'T WANT SONGS ABOUT CULTISH RELIGIONS?

And for those fans who simply DON'T SHARE YOUR OPINION?

Well, you can't please everybody.

Haha, wow i must have really got to you for taking your time out to research all that. Ok let me respond as well as i can, while AGAIN reiterating my previous points as you obviously seem to be out for blood and not a reasoned discussion.

First of all, i'm certainly not expecting you to agree with my points. Judging by your first post, it was obvious you didn't.

Second point, if you read the title again, i place a question mark and an exclaimation mark at the end of the post title. So i'm stating that it is my own opinion based on my experience yet the question mark gives the indication that it's open for debate.

My opinion is merely an opinion, I don't expect people to agree and i'm happy if people disagree. Yet you accuse me of being critical of others opinions, yet you attack me for my own. Again the hypocrisy of your arguments are showing.

As i mentioned in my first reply to you, i did apologise if it seemed i was generalising. Yes, I could have worded my post better, but i'm no shakespeare. And no, i'm not going to cite references and examples to prove my conclusion, i've got better things to do with my time. But as a few fans have replied to my post agreeing with what i'm saying, it seems that some fans are generally agreeing that i'm not generalising but pointing out a fact that crops up on Prince fan websites frequently. Perhaps the ones that don't respond are guilty of what i'm commenting on, who knows?

Third point, you are absolutely right that people should not have to like something. But as i mentioned in my post, my argument was not based on peoples general opinion, but people who complain about the lack of Linn, synths or guitars. Everyone has their own opinion on what makes a great Prince record. Prince will release whatever he choses to release, but he cannot please all of the fans all of the time. It seems that fans have their own choice of a favourite prince sound, why not! But what i'm saying is, when the latest album doesn't fit in with that ideal, people complain.

So my argument is not in any way trying to dictate peoples tastes, rather to point out how unfair people can be to expect so much and to expect what they want.

Fourth point. Whether LotusFlower or MPLS was a response to fan input is debatable. But regardless of that, Prince did release a guitar led album and a synth album at the same time. It's pedantic to go into the reasons why, but some fans mentioned they wanted more guitars and some fans mentioned they wanted that synth and linn sound. Prince delivered both and yet was critizised. Again proving my point!

Fifth point, i only listed Andre 3000 and Stevie Wonder in my post. I certainly think that Stevie Wonder is comparable to Prince but that's not the point. The fact that you said these other artists are not comparable to Princes output cements my argument. You are willing to state that Prince is beyond these artists yet it is still ok to bitch about him. Again the inconsistency of your arguments is apparent and proves my point exactly.

Regarding that whole point about his 90's stuff not being comparable. I'm obviously comparing his own 80's output to his 90's output. Which again proves my point that people only judge a Prince album by previous Prince albums, not by any other standard. This shows that my point about a Prince album expectations being unfairly too high.

Six point. Yes i do notice the threads about his great past albums, i'm not oblivious to it. But this again proves my point. Some fans who rave about his earlier albums, how great they were can bitch about how his current albums don't stand up to the older stuff. I'd like to stress the word 'SOME' as again i want to reiterate that i'm not generalising.

Seventh point. Again i agree with you, but that's not my point. I can't be fucked to reiterate my previous points.

Eighth point, Love Below and Gold Experience were released years apart, yes.. But regardless of my mistake you are again being pedantic for the sake of an argument without realising the point i'm making. Regardless of how each album was promoted or the year it was released, The Gold Experience was a moderate success yes, but not hailed as a great album like the inferior love below album. (I love your summing up of Andre 3000 being not fit to cup the balls of Prince. Brilliant)

Tenth point. Your sarcasm in my liking for the recent music is a bit silly. Again you are dismissing my like for something sarcastically while complaining about my opinions of others tastes is again very hypocritical.

Eleventh point. Again you accuse me of thinking out of my butt. Not a reasoned argument but an insult on my intelligence. So basically you are not able to give reasoned argument but personal insults because i have my own opinion. I'm basically reiterating my point that regardless of whether you like the album or not, he is at least giving some Prince fans what they want. Whether the album is good or not, i'm again reiterating my point that whatever he delivers, certain Prince fans complain.

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

Whiskas31 said:

But no one is asking you to spend your money!

Really? Apparently, that would be why I didn't say anyone was.

You're a happy and content Prince fan, right? So why are you so hostile towards differing opinions when it comes to Prince? No one is trying to change your opinion, nor what you find enjoyable.

Why am i being hostile by suggesting you don't HAVE to spend your money. You were implying by your post that Prince expects people to spend their money on him.

Whiskas31 said:

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

Really? Apparently, that would be why I didn't say anyone was.

You're a happy and content Prince fan, right? So why are you so hostile towards differing opinions when it comes to Prince? No one is trying to change your opinion, nor what you find enjoyable.

Why am i being hostile by suggesting you don't HAVE to spend your money. You were implying by your post that Prince expects people to spend their money on him.

I implied no such thing with my post. I said...when I've asked "What exactly is it that he does SO much of...for his fans?"...I can never seem to get a straight answer. The answers I've gotten from people such as yourself...on threads like this one. Usually consist of ramblings about concerts...and being grateful that he allows us the priviledge to spend our money...on the honor of basking in his presence.

If it implied anything...it implied that people such as yourself who make threads like this one, complaining about "spoilt fans" who aren't satisfied with his current endeavors...expects...us to just be happy that we have the priviledge to spend our money on him.

Whiskas31 said:

Haha, wow i must have really got to you for taking your time out to research all that. Ok let me respond as well as i can, while AGAIN reiterating my previous points as you obviously seem to be out for blood and not a reasoned discussion.

First of all, i'm certainly not expecting you to agree with my points. Judging by your first post, it was obvious you didn't.

Second point, if you read the title again, i place a question mark and an exclaimation mark at the end of the post title. So i'm stating that it is my own opinion based on my experience yet the question mark gives the indication that it's open for debate.

My opinion is merely an opinion, I don't expect people to agree and i'm happy if people disagree. Yet you accuse me of being critical of others opinions, yet you attack me for my own. Again the hypocrisy of your arguments are showing.

As i mentioned in my first reply to you, i did apologise if it seemed i was generalising. Yes, I could have worded my post better, but i'm no shakespeare. And no, i'm not going to cite references and examples to prove my conclusion, i've got better things to do with my time. But as a few fans have replied to my post agreeing with what i'm saying, it seems that some fans are generally agreeing that i'm not generalising but pointing out a fact that crops up on Prince fan websites frequently. Perhaps the ones that don't respond are guilty of what i'm commenting on, who knows?

Third point, you are absolutely right that people should not have to like something. But as i mentioned in my post, my argument was not based on peoples general opinion, but people who complain about the lack of Linn, synths or guitars. Everyone has their own opinion on what makes a great Prince record. Prince will release whatever he choses to release, but he cannot please all of the fans all of the time. It seems that fans have their own choice of a favourite prince sound, why not! But what i'm saying is, when the latest album doesn't fit in with that ideal, people complain.

So my argument is not in any way trying to dictate peoples tastes, rather to point out how unfair people can be to expect so much and to expect what they want.

Fourth point. Whether LotusFlower or MPLS was a response to fan input is debatable. But regardless of that, Prince did release a guitar led album and a synth album at the same time. It's pedantic to go into the reasons why, but some fans mentioned they wanted more guitars and some fans mentioned they wanted that synth and linn sound. Prince delivered both and yet was critizised. Again proving my point!

Fifth point, i only listed Andre 3000 and Stevie Wonder in my post. I certainly think that Stevie Wonder is comparable to Prince but that's not the point. The fact that you said these other artists are not comparable to Princes output cements my argument. You are willing to state that Prince is beyond these artists yet it is still ok to bitch about him. Again the inconsistency of your arguments is apparent and proves my point exactly.

Regarding that whole point about his 90's stuff not being comparable. I'm obviously comparing his own 80's output to his 90's output. Which again proves my point that people only judge a Prince album by previous Prince albums, not by any other standard. This shows that my point about a Prince album expectations being unfairly too high.

Six point. Yes i do notice the threads about his great past albums, i'm not oblivious to it. But this again proves my point. Some fans who rave about his earlier albums, how great they were can bitch about how his current albums don't stand up to the older stuff. I'd like to stress the word 'SOME' as again i want to reiterate that i'm not generalising.

Seventh point. Again i agree with you, but that's not my point. I can't be fucked to reiterate my previous points.

Eighth point, Love Below and Gold Experience were released years apart, yes.. But regardless of my mistake you are again being pedantic for the sake of an argument without realising the point i'm making. Regardless of how each album was promoted or the year it was released, The Gold Experience was a moderate success yes, but not hailed as a great album like the inferior love below album. (I love your summing up of Andre 3000 being not fit to cup the balls of Prince. Brilliant)

Tenth point. Your sarcasm in my liking for the recent music is a bit silly. Again you are dismissing my like for something sarcastically while complaining about my opinions of others tastes is again very hypocritical.

Eleventh point. Again you accuse me of thinking out of my butt. Not a reasoned argument but an insult on my intelligence. So basically you are not able to give reasoned argument but personal insults because i have my own opinion. I'm basically reiterating my point that regardless of whether you like the album or not, he is at least giving some Prince fans what they want. Whether the album is good or not, i'm again reiterating my point that whatever he delivers, certain Prince fans complain.

You clearly stated Gold Experience and Love Below/Speakerboxxx were released at the same time. They weren't. They were released exactly as far apart as Jimi's Bold As Love and Fleetwood Mac's Rumours. Why would you be able to conflate that issue? "Oh man, this new album is getting better reviews than [insert random old album from different artist that isn't even the same type of music]"?? Get outta here. This is nonsense.

You aren't generalizing yet you can't cite any usernames or posts or responses or anything that hold up anything you say. It is, thus, an opinion and in matters of opinion wars, nobody wins.

It is not being inconsistent to say an artist is extremely talented but also does shitty records sometimes. I'm not even going to argue this point because it's absurd. It also directly conflicts with your apparent agreement with me that people are entitled to their opinions (an issue you flipflop on consistently in this thread).

I'm encouraging you to express your opinions about that art whenever you choose and to accept the opinions of others in kind. Opinions do not need to match when discussing art as beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

You telling me that "some people complain" is redundant. No, not all people like every album. It doesn't matter. I love Prince's Linn work, overall. I don't like the MPLSound album. I have a right to criticize the work. You call this criticism complaining. I don't. I call it objectivity.

Edited: The bolded parts of your post are directly conflicting each other. Rethink.

[Edited 2/3/11 17:20pm]

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

Whiskas31 said:

Why am i being hostile by suggesting you don't HAVE to spend your money. You were implying by your post that Prince expects people to spend their money on him.

I implied no such thing with my post. I said...when I've asked "What exactly is it that he does SO much of...for his fans?"...I can never seem to get a straight answer. The answers I've gotten from people such as yourself...on threads like this one. Usually consist of ramblings about concerts...and being grateful that he allows us the priviledge to spend our money...on the honor of basking in his presence.

If it implied anything...it implied that people such as yourself who make threads like this one, complaining about "spoilt fans" who aren't satisfied with his current endeavors...expects...us to just be happy that we have the priviledge to spend our money on him.

I thought you did when you said 'he allows us the priveledge to spend our money'. Basically no one is putting a gun to your head to buy an new album or go to a concert, it's your own choice. And no i don't expect anyone to be happy with what he's doing now. That wasn't the point of my post. Obviously people can't be bothered to read it properly!

Spinlight said:

Whiskas31 said:

Haha, wow i must have really got to you for taking your time out to research all that. Ok let me respond as well as i can, while AGAIN reiterating my previous points as you obviously seem to be out for blood and not a reasoned discussion.

First of all, i'm certainly not expecting you to agree with my points. Judging by your first post, it was obvious you didn't.

Second point, if you read the title again, i place a question mark and an exclaimation mark at the end of the post title. So i'm stating that it is my own opinion based on my experience yet the question mark gives the indication that it's open for debate.

My opinion is merely an opinion, I don't expect people to agree and i'm happy if people disagree. Yet you accuse me of being critical of others opinions, yet you attack me for my own. Again the hypocrisy of your arguments are showing.

As i mentioned in my first reply to you, i did apologise if it seemed i was generalising. Yes, I could have worded my post better, but i'm no shakespeare. And no, i'm not going to cite references and examples to prove my conclusion, i've got better things to do with my time. But as a few fans have replied to my post agreeing with what i'm saying, it seems that some fans are generally agreeing that i'm not generalising but pointing out a fact that crops up on Prince fan websites frequently. Perhaps the ones that don't respond are guilty of what i'm commenting on, who knows?

Third point, you are absolutely right that people should not have to like something. But as i mentioned in my post, my argument was not based on peoples general opinion, but people who complain about the lack of Linn, synths or guitars. Everyone has their own opinion on what makes a great Prince record. Prince will release whatever he choses to release, but he cannot please all of the fans all of the time. It seems that fans have their own choice of a favourite prince sound, why not! But what i'm saying is, when the latest album doesn't fit in with that ideal, people complain.

So my argument is not in any way trying to dictate peoples tastes, rather to point out how unfair people can be to expect so much and to expect what they want.

Fourth point. Whether LotusFlower or MPLS was a response to fan input is debatable. But regardless of that, Prince did release a guitar led album and a synth album at the same time. It's pedantic to go into the reasons why, but some fans mentioned they wanted more guitars and some fans mentioned they wanted that synth and linn sound. Prince delivered both and yet was critizised. Again proving my point!

Fifth point, i only listed Andre 3000 and Stevie Wonder in my post. I certainly think that Stevie Wonder is comparable to Prince but that's not the point. The fact that you said these other artists are not comparable to Princes output cements my argument. You are willing to state that Prince is beyond these artists yet it is still ok to bitch about him. Again the inconsistency of your arguments is apparent and proves my point exactly.

Regarding that whole point about his 90's stuff not being comparable. I'm obviously comparing his own 80's output to his 90's output. Which again proves my point that people only judge a Prince album by previous Prince albums, not by any other standard. This shows that my point about a Prince album expectations being unfairly too high.

Six point. Yes i do notice the threads about his great past albums, i'm not oblivious to it. But this again proves my point. Some fans who rave about his earlier albums, how great they were can bitch about how his current albums don't stand up to the older stuff. I'd like to stress the word 'SOME' as again i want to reiterate that i'm not generalising.

Seventh point. Again i agree with you, but that's not my point. I can't be fucked to reiterate my previous points.

Eighth point, Love Below and Gold Experience were released years apart, yes.. But regardless of my mistake you are again being pedantic for the sake of an argument without realising the point i'm making. Regardless of how each album was promoted or the year it was released, The Gold Experience was a moderate success yes, but not hailed as a great album like the inferior love below album. (I love your summing up of Andre 3000 being not fit to cup the balls of Prince. Brilliant)

Tenth point. Your sarcasm in my liking for the recent music is a bit silly. Again you are dismissing my like for something sarcastically while complaining about my opinions of others tastes is again very hypocritical.

Eleventh point. Again you accuse me of thinking out of my butt. Not a reasoned argument but an insult on my intelligence. So basically you are not able to give reasoned argument but personal insults because i have my own opinion. I'm basically reiterating my point that regardless of whether you like the album or not, he is at least giving some Prince fans what they want. Whether the album is good or not, i'm again reiterating my point that whatever he delivers, certain Prince fans complain.

You clearly stated Gold Experience and Love Below/Speakerboxxx were released at the same time. They weren't. They were released exactly as far apart as Jimi's Bold As Love and Fleetwood Mac's Rumours. Why would you be able to conflate that issue? "Oh man, this new album is getting better reviews than [insert random old album from different artist that isn't even the same type of music]"?? Get outta here. This is nonsense.

You aren't generalizing yet you can't cite any usernames or posts or responses or anything that hold up anything you say. It is, thus, an opinion and in matters of opinion wars, nobody wins.

It is not being inconsistent to say an artist is extremely talented but also does shitty records sometimes. I'm not even going to argue this point because it's absurd. It also directly conflicts with your apparent agreement with me that people are entitl

ed to their opinions (an issue you flipflop on consistently in this thread).

I'm encouraging you to express your opinions about that art whenever you choose and to accept the opinions of others in kind. Opinions do not need to match when discussing art as beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

You telling me that "some people complain" is redundant. No, not all people like every album. It doesn't matter. I love Prince's Linn work, overall. I don't like the MPLSound album. I have a right to criticize the work. You call this criticism complaining. I don't. I call it objectivity.

Edited: The bolded parts of your post are directly conflicting each other. Rethink.

[Edited 2/3/11 17:20pm]

Oh my god, you really don't read my replies do you. I clearly stated that i was wrong that these albums weren't released at the same time. My point was that it wasn't applicable to my argument, that it was pedantic to use that as a basis for your argument.

AND AGAIN, i reiterate that i'm not going to prove my point by searching out individual posts to prove my point, the fact that a few people have responded in agreement is proof that i'm not alone in my opinion.

AGAIN i reiterate that i'm not against people having their own opinion on an album etc. AGAIN, read the original point i made over and fucking over again to you.

And no, my 'bolded parts' are not conflciting each other. And please, if you are going to make an argument, don't use my words out of context to back up your argument, because that doesn't really hold any salt in your argument. And finally, please don't be personally insulting of my intelligence. Yes, i'm not the sharpest pencil in the box but i don't expect personal insults. I have given you none and i expect none in return.

W

Absolutely agree!!! I've never seen a group of people moan so much. It's not healthy :\

Militant, agree with your post too and Spinlight - why is it whenever I see you somewhere you're debating or arguing in such a sarcastic, challenging, rude way. Always.

Prince still makes good music. Wtf is yo' problem guys?

Japha11 said:

Absolutely agree!!! I've never seen a group of people moan so much. It's not healthy :\

Militant, agree with your post too and Spinlight - why is it whenever I see you somewhere you're debating or arguing in such a sarcastic, challenging, rude way. Always.

Prince still makes good music. Wtf is yo' problem guys?

Pimp rag, tootsie pop, and a cane.

Spinlight said:

Japha11 said:

Absolutely agree!!! I've never seen a group of people moan so much. It's not healthy :\

Militant, agree with your post too and Spinlight - why is it whenever I see you somewhere you're debating or arguing in such a sarcastic, challenging, rude way. Always.

Prince still makes good music. Wtf is yo' problem guys?

Pimp rag, tootsie pop, and a cane.

Instead of insulting people spinlight why not respond to my reply? You obviously can't have an intelligent argument without resorting to personal insults.

Whiskas31 said:

Spinlight said:

Pimp rag, tootsie pop, and a cane.

Instead of insulting people spinlight why not respond to my reply? You obviously can't have an intelligent argument without resorting to personal insults.

I'm afraid that I've expended my alotted attention span for this thread by explaining things to you as succinctly as possible. You continue to ramble on aimlessly, conflating fact and fiction, all the while slamming your gavel furiously, wondering why people don't agree with you.

The people who agree with you have exhibited typical behavior for people who DO agree with you. Which is wonderful. And I hope you all enjoy milquetoast cuz Prince has been serving it up for years and probably will for the forseeable future.

Spinlight said:

Whiskas31 said:

Instead of insulting people spinlight why not respond to my reply? You obviously can't have an intelligent argument without resorting to personal insults.

I'm afraid that I've expended my alotted attention span for this thread by explaining things to you as succinctly as possible. You continue to ramble on aimlessly, conflating fact and fiction, all the while slamming your gavel furiously, wondering why people don't agree with you.

The people who agree with you have exhibited typical behavior for people who DO agree with you. Which is wonderful. And I hope you all enjoy milquetoast cuz Prince has been serving it up for years and probably will for the forseeable future.

It seems you're the one who doesn't agree with my 'conflacting' opinions. And when have i ever been 'furious' in defending accusations that i'm providing fact with fiction or responding to accusations that i'm a person you deem me to be? Where's the fiction?

For someone who expended their alloted attention span, you sure did a good job spending all that time picking on each individual word i posted to you. I'm sorry some people agree with me, but why pick on people who do? doesn't that completely destroy your argument about people having a right to have their own opinion?

Whiskas31 said:

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

I implied no such thing with my post. I said...when I've asked "What exactly is it that he does SO much of...for his fans?"...I can never seem to get a straight answer. The answers I've gotten from people such as yourself...on threads like this one. Usually consist of ramblings about concerts...and being grateful that he allows us the priviledge to spend our money...on the honor of basking in his presence.

If it implied anything...it implied that people such as yourself who make threads like this one, complaining about "spoilt fans" who aren't satisfied with his current endeavors...expects...us to just be happy that we have the priviledge to spend our money on him.

I thought you did when you said 'he allows us the priveledge to spend our money'. Basically no one is putting a gun to your head to buy an new album or go to a concert, it's your own choice. And no i don't expect anyone to be happy with what he's doing now. That wasn't the point of my post. Obviously people can't be bothered to read it properly!

You were the one that completely overlooked everything I wrote before that...

"I see that a lot of times, in threads like these and I keep asking, "What exactly is it that he does SO much of...for his fans?" but I can never seem to get a straight answer. They usually consist of ramblings about concerts...and being grateful that..."

then proceeded to address only what you wanted to with a snide tone like you are hipping me to something that I don't already know.

When I obviously know that better than you because I've chosen to spend my money...a lot more wisely the last few years and have been much happier and a whole lot less disappointed and upset than I could have been.

Whiskas31 said:

Spinlight said:

I'm afraid that I've expended my alotted attention span for this thread by explaining things to you as succinctly as possible. You continue to ramble on aimlessly, conflating fact and fiction, all the while slamming your gavel furiously, wondering why people don't agree with you.

The people who agree with you have exhibited typical behavior for people who DO agree with you. Which is wonderful. And I hope you all enjoy milquetoast cuz Prince has been serving it up for years and probably will for the forseeable future.

It seems you're the one who doesn't agree with my 'conflacting' opinions. And when have i ever been 'furious' in defending accusations that i'm providing fact with fiction or responding to accusations that i'm a person you deem me to be? Where's the fiction?

For someone who expended their alloted attention span, you sure did a good job spending all that time picking on each individual word i posted to you. I'm sorry some people agree with me, but why pick on people who do? doesn't that completely destroy your argument about people having a right to have their own opinion?

I didn't pick on anyone, booboo. You are insisting I am and that is cool, but your trouble with conflating things is kicking in again.

The fiction is all over your posts from the examples you give (Speakerboxx) to the misinformation and generalizations. And btw, you keep saying you are not generalizing, but you are. Look up the word, reread your posts.

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

Whiskas31 said:

I thought you did when you said 'he allows us the priveledge to spend our money'. Basically no one is putting a gun to your head to buy an new album or go to a concert, it's your own choice. And no i don't expect anyone to be happy with what he's doing now. That wasn't the point of my post. Obviously people can't be bothered to read it properly!

You were the one that completely overlooked everything I wrote before that...

"I see that a lot of times, in threads like these and I keep asking, "What exactly is it that he does SO much of...for his fans?" but I can never seem to get a straight answer. They usually consist of ramblings about concerts...and being grateful that..."

then proceeded to address only what you wanted to with a snide tone like you are hipping me to something that I don't already know.

When I obviously know that better than you because I've chosen to spend my money...a lot more wisely the last few years and have been much happier and a whole lot less disappointed and upset than I could have been.

"obviously know that better than you...". Nice bit of arrogance there. As i mentioned before in my post, i'm not dictating what fans should like or spend their money on. Yes Prince does ramble on but he gives us concerts, maybe not where you are but that's my point. So many Prince fans want what they want. And when has Prince ever said that his fans should be grateful?

Spinlight said:

Whiskas31 said:

It seems you're the one who doesn't agree with my 'conflacting' opinions. And when have i ever been 'furious' in defending accusations that i'm providing fact with fiction or responding to accusations that i'm a person you deem me to be? Where's the fiction?

For someone who expended their alloted attention span, you sure did a good job spending all that time picking on each individual word i posted to you. I'm sorry some people agree with me, but why pick on people who do? doesn't that completely destroy your argument about people having a right to have their own opinion?

I didn't pick on anyone, booboo. You are insisting I am and that is cool, but your trouble with conflating things is kicking in again.

The fiction is all over your posts from the examples you give (Speakerboxx) to the misinformation and generalizations. And btw, you keep saying you are not generalizing, but you are. Look up the word, reread your posts.

Tell me where my argument is conflicting and how I am generalising? And i'm sorry if i think you are picking on me, but saying i'm talking out of my ass does amount to picking on someone. And please tell me how this speakerboxx (i actually mentioned Love below, different album) comes into my misinformatiion?

Whiskas31 said:

Spinlight said:

I didn't pick on anyone, booboo. You are insisting I am and that is cool, but your trouble with conflating things is kicking in again.

The fiction is all over your posts from the examples you give (Speakerboxx) to the misinformation and generalizations. And btw, you keep saying you are not generalizing, but you are. Look up the word, reread your posts.

Tell me where my argument is conflicting and how I am generalising? And i'm sorry if i think you are picking on me, but saying i'm talking out of my ass does amount to picking on someone. And please tell me how this speakerboxx (i actually mentioned Love below, different album) comes into my misinformatiion?

Speakerboxx/Love Below are the same album. It is a double disc album. I'm aware you were speaking about the Andre 3000 side.

I've already shown you where you were conflicting. You said I was wrong. Stop asking.

Spinlight said:

Whiskas31 said:

Tell me where my argument is conflicting and how I am generalising? And i'm sorry if i think you are picking on me, but saying i'm talking out of my ass does amount to picking on someone. And please tell me how this speakerboxx (i actually mentioned Love below, different album) comes into my misinformatiion?

Speakerboxx/Love Below are the same album. It is a double disc album. I'm aware you were speaking about the Andre 3000 side.

I've already shown you where you were conflicting. You said I was wrong. Stop asking.

Again you're being pedantic for the sake of an argument. That doesn't mean jack shit for my point. Why keep mentioning it?

Whiskas31 said:

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

You were the one that completely overlooked everything I wrote before that...

"I see that a lot of times, in threads like these and I keep asking, "What exactly is it that he does SO much of...for his fans?" but I can never seem to get a straight answer. They usually consist of ramblings about concerts...and being grateful that..."

then proceeded to address only what you wanted to with a snide tone like you are hipping me to something that I don't already know.

When I obviously know that better than you because I've chosen to spend my money...a lot more wisely the last few years and have been much happier and a whole lot less disappointed and upset than I could have been.

"obviously know that better than you...". Nice bit of arrogance there. As i mentioned before in my post, i'm not dictating what fans should like or spend their money on. Yes Prince does ramble on but he gives us concerts, maybe not where you are but that's my point. So many Prince fans want what they want. And when has Prince ever said that his fans should be grateful?

You are still missing my point. Yet...proving my point...at the same time. That's hilarious!

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

Whiskas31 said:

"obviously know that better than you...". Nice bit of arrogance there. As i mentioned before in my post, i'm not dictating what fans should like or spend their money on. Yes Prince does ramble on but he gives us concerts, maybe not where you are but that's my point. So many Prince fans want what they want. And when has Prince ever said that his fans should be grateful?

You are still missing my point. Yet...proving my point...at the same time. That's hilarious!

I'm glad you find it hilarious. Could you please explain your point exactly?

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

Whiskas31 said:

"obviously know that better than you...". Nice bit of arrogance there. As i mentioned before in my post, i'm not dictating what fans should like or spend their money on. Yes Prince does ramble on but he gives us concerts, maybe not where you are but that's my point. So many Prince fans want what they want. And when has Prince ever said that his fans should be grateful?

You are still missing my point. Yet...proving my point...at the same time. That's hilarious!

Just to add to my previous response, if you think i'm one of these people who doesn't understand your point, you should at least make a reasoned argument as to why i am wrong, instead of just judging me on being wrong and mocking me for being 'not on your level of thinking'. Thanks!

Whiskas31 said:

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

You are still missing my point. Yet...proving my point...at the same time. That's hilarious!

I'm glad you find it hilarious. Could you please explain your point exactly?

I would but you should have bothered to read my post properly.

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

Whiskas31 said:

I'm glad you find it hilarious. Could you please explain your point exactly?

I would but you should have bothered to read my post properly.

I did read your post properly, i'm afraid i still don't understand your point.

Whiskas31 said:

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

I would but you should have bothered to read my post properly.

I did read your post properly, i'm afraid i still don't understand your point.

If you read my posts properly, you would know that I wasn't talking about Prince per se.

I was talking about people like you, that make threads like this one! You're the ones that ramble nonsense about concerts and fans should be grateful...when faced with the question..."What exactly is it that he does SO much of...for his fans?"

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

Whiskas31 said:

I did read your post properly, i'm afraid i still don't understand your point.

If you read my posts properly, you would know that I wasn't talking about Prince per se.

I was talking about people like you, that make threads like this one! You're the ones that ramble nonsense about concerts and fans should be grateful...when faced with the question..."What exactly is it that he does SO much of...for his fans?"

I did read your post properly, but explain to me why i am rambling nonsense? And why shouldn't fans be grateful for what Prince has done? As i stated before, no one is forcing you to buy his new records, no one is forcing you to go to his concerts. Why should fans expect so much from someone?