Tremolina said:

^^ how come you always know exactly what Prince thinks?

A while ago he stated just ONE reason for not liking Itunes and that was that they don't want to pay him an advance. None of those other reasons you mentioned.

Why should they pay him an advance for records that have already been produced and released and for which he already was paid an advance? Why should they, when they don't pay anybody an advance? Why should they when a normal record store doesn't pay anybody advances either?

Does Prince produce anything for Apple on commission? Are there any specific production or distribution costs Prince has to make in order for Apple to put his music on their site? No, no, no. Nothing. All he needs to do is grant them permission. But all he does is grant that for only a little music, only a few albums and songs, when has loads, simply because he wants to be paid upfront.

Money, money, money. Pay me big time upfront or you get no 'candy'. The main reason why there is so little Prince music legally available on the net, is Prince himself.

Read carefully.

a LOT of musicians, ESPECIALLY independent ones

Not a stretch that Prince doesn't think Apple deserve a 35% cut now, is it? Not a stretch to think that Prince wouldn't kiss Apple ass, is it? Hell, he reneged on a bunch of the promotion for 3121 for Universal and they cancelled Tamar's release in response.

Now calm down.

Apple don't pay anyone? Never heard of The Beatles? Go find out how much APPLE PAID for the rights to sell The Beatles catalog on iTunes. And yes - it was an upfront payment.

Why do you tell me to "calm down"? I am calm. Don't be so pompeous.

Also, you only quoted a piece of what you said, which was:

"a LOT of musicians, ESPECIALLY independent ones like Prince, don't like Itunes."

How do you know all those reasons why doesn't like Itunes, or for that matter what "a lot of musicians, especially independents" not like about Itunes?

You know them all personally? You know all the deals Apple makes with them?

I don't think you do.

By the way, the Beatles gave Apple EXCLUSIVE rights to sell ALL their shit digitally, so it's fair to be paid upfront, because they don't sell it anywhere else. A normal deal with apple isn't exclusive.

Tremolina said:

Why do you tell me to "calm down"? I am calm. Don't be so pompeous.

Also, you only quoted a piece of what you said, which was:

"a LOT of musicians, ESPECIALLY independent ones like Prince, don't like Itunes."

How do you know all those reasons why doesn't like Itunes, or for that matter what "a lot of musicians, especially independents" not like about Itunes?

You know them all personally? You know all the deals Apple makes with them?

I don't think you do.

Spinlight said:

Militant said:

Android's core apps are far superior. People want their smartphones to be as adept as possible when it comes to having great mobile versions of services they already use. Herein lies Apple's problems - they don't have any web services. You want incredible, native versions of Google Search, Google Translate, YouTube, Maps, Gtalk, Google Calendar, Google Earth, Picasa, Google Reader, Google Docs, you simply can't get these on iOS, or you get inferior versions with much less functionality. All services I used HEAVILY before I even started using Android, meaning that it was the logical solution.

Add in killer mobile-only apps to the mix like Google Navigation (with Street View) mode, Google Voice, Google Goggles, SkyMap, YouTube Leanback Remote, and it's an easy win. Furthermore, the word from within the music industry is that the upcoming Google Music is going to decimate iTunes in a very short space of time. Throw in complete convergence with forthcoming Android tablets like the Motorola XOOM, LG G-Slate, and other products like Google TV, and again - an easy win. Even Steve Jobs knows this, hence the raging anti Google rants he's been going on at internal Apple staff events. Android marketshare is already slapping iOS in the face.

Open source on cellphones is a potential security disaster? How so? I use Linux on my laptop. No security issues here. Android is a Linux based OS. Chrome is an open source browser and there's no security issues. Same with Firefox. Symbian is the most popular mobile OS in the world given it's dominance on featurephones, and it's open source too.

Were you not the one JUST SAYING you hate people who spew opinions like they are fact? Practice what you preach. The point isn't to justify your opinion on what phone is better. The point is that he should have a presence in the App Store and this does not preclude him from having a presence in a Droid app. See that? It's called universality. Prince and his music should be UNIVERSAL. Not overly complicated, not difficult to purchase, not complicated to get what you paid for.

I understand, empathize with, and agree with your description of Prince's contribution to you being invaluable. I feel the same. However, that is because his music has helped me through some of the worst times a person could ever imagine to experience. Not because I jacked off to his stupid flower site or because I sat around listening to slow mo voices on an hour long radio show of music I really already had for the most part. If Prince is going to engage in an endeavor that commercializes his music in a way that is akin to making it a commodity, then he should be judged by the same standards any other shmuck sellin' something is.

Your fandom should not blind you to when you are being taken advantage of. The website's offerings were not even legitimate market value of $77. Your emotional bond to the LotusFlower website is nice, but that doesn't mean it is actually worth more than it is. It was a failed commercial endeavor, not merely an album you really appreciate.

Your fandom should not blind you to when you are being taken advantage of. The website's offerings were not even legitimate market value of $77. Your emotional bond to the LotusFlower website is nice, but that doesn't mean it is actually worth more than it is. It was a failed commercial endeavor, not merely an album you really appreciate.

I usually don't agree with you, but you are right with this. I thought the lotus project was just silly. It perhpas had some potential, if you listened to the hype at first... but as with many projects, once the next inspirtation comes around it is left for dead,.

Google: Prince internet

Tremolina said:

Why do you tell me to "calm down"? I am calm. Don't be so pompeous.

Also, you only quoted a piece of what you said, which was:

"a LOT of musicians, ESPECIALLY independent ones like Prince, don't like Itunes."

How do you know all those reasons why doesn't like Itunes, or for that matter what "a lot of musicians, especially independents" not like about Itunes?

You know them all personally? You know all the deals Apple makes with them?

I don't think you do.

How do I know? Maybe because I'm in the music business professionally, worked with many different labels, major and indie, talk to hundreds of musicians, execs, promoters and marketers every week, and am about to have some of my writings on the matter published in a book full of advice for indie musicians? How about that I've given 5 guest lectures to date to music industry classes at some of the UK's biggest universities?

Apple doesn't "make deals" with anyone. Everyone is subject to the same standards. Except The Beatles, who held out and got a separate deal. I've heard the same complaints about iTunes from musicians big and small. So THAT'S how I know "all those reasons", but I guess that's probably not good enough for you.

Militant said:

Tremolina said:

Why do you tell me to "calm down"? I am calm. Don't be so pompeous.

Also, you only quoted a piece of what you said, which was:

"a LOT of musicians, ESPECIALLY independent ones like Prince, don't like Itunes."

How do you know all those reasons why doesn't like Itunes, or for that matter what "a lot of musicians, especially independents" not like about Itunes?

You know them all personally? You know all the deals Apple makes with them?

I don't think you do.

How do I know? Maybe because I'm in the music business professionally, worked with many different labels, major and indie, talk to hundreds of musicians, execs, promoters and marketers every week, and am about to have some of my writings on the matter published in a book full of advice for indie musicians? How about that I've given 5 guest lectures to date to music industry classes at some of the UK's biggest universities?

Apple doesn't "make deals" with anyone. Everyone is subject to the same standards. Except The Beatles, who held out and got a separate deal. I've heard the same complaints about iTunes from musicians big and small. So THAT'S how I know "all those reasons", but I guess that's probably not good enough for you.

So, since you like to elevate yourself to Prince's status constantly (in nearly every reply about him you make), can we all presume you're as bad at business as Prince is? Surely we see your admiration for LotusFailure and how sympathetic you are to Prince's dire plight. I say that you should be written off because you suffer from the same list of fucked up priorities that Prince does.

The more you bring up your music career, the more you beg people to REALLY be dicks about how little you do know and how many blanks you fill in with conjecture and speculation passed off as fact.

Gotta take the bad with the good.

Militant said:

Vendetta1 said:

Yeah, it's all well and good to join a site with no expectations but if I'm giving you my hard-earned money I should get my money's worth.

See, I don't really see it that way. It's not tit-for-tat for me. If I would have had to pay for all the Prince bootlegs that I have, it would be a GREAT deal more than he's ever charged for any site.

Hell, some artists charge money just so their fans can meet them and say hello. I met Prince and it didn't cost me a dime. I've even MADE money from Prince, in the sense that some items I purchased went up considerably in value and I then sold them. There's just no way to put a price on all the enjoyment I get from being a fan. It all works itself out in the end. Plus, the Lotusflow3r site introduced me to Anthony Malzone and his work and he's now a friend of mine, so it's all good.

I dig what you're saying Militant.

Purpleaxxe1972 said:

Militant said:

See, I don't really see it that way. It's not tit-for-tat for me. If I would have had to pay for all the Prince bootlegs that I have, it would be a GREAT deal more than he's ever charged for any site.

Hell, some artists charge money just so their fans can meet them and say hello. I met Prince and it didn't cost me a dime. I've even MADE money from Prince, in the sense that some items I purchased went up considerably in value and I then sold them. There's just no way to put a price on all the enjoyment I get from being a fan. It all works itself out in the end. Plus, the Lotusflow3r site introduced me to Anthony Malzone and his work and he's now a friend of mine, so it's all good.

I dig what you're saying Militant.

Thanks, Purpleaxxe.

Militant said:

Chas, a LOT of musicians, ESPECIALLY independent ones like Prince, don't like iTunes.

I see your point. My thought was that his past attempts were shitty, he needs to hand that delivery over to someone else, whether it be iTunes, Google Music, Rhapsody or mp3funkdepot.com. Someone who knows how to handle bandwidth and content delivery, rather his past attempts, with some overwhelmed web designer who doesn't know the technical end of things, or an overwhelmed technical guy who doesn't know the design end of things.

When he released 'Rave' he said Arista was nothing more than a FedEx man, just delivering his package to the fans. He could surely make a deal with some web site. Surely some site would love to attach itself to the Prince train, and would probably give him whatever he wanted.

Of course, this is all a fairy tale and won't happen. He'll continue these erratic releases, and eventually try another pay website that will screw over his fans, and I'll be stuck in the back of the concert with the idiots.

I really wish people would take stock of the current Prince offerings on iTunes. Most of his best work in on there, and always has been.

Militant said:

Tremolina said:

Why do you tell me to "calm down"? I am calm. Don't be so pompeous.

Also, you only quoted a piece of what you said, which was:

"a LOT of musicians, ESPECIALLY independent ones like Prince, don't like Itunes."

How do you know all those reasons why doesn't like Itunes, or for that matter what "a lot of musicians, especially independents" not like about Itunes?

You know them all personally? You know all the deals Apple makes with them?

I don't think you do.

How do I know? Maybe because I'm in the music business professionally, worked with many different labels, major and indie, talk to hundreds of musicians, execs, promoters and marketers every week, and am about to have some of my writings on the matter published in a book full of advice for indie musicians? How about that I've given 5 guest lectures to date to music industry classes at some of the UK's biggest universities?

Apple doesn't "make deals" with anyone. Everyone is subject to the same standards. Except The Beatles, who held out and got a separate deal. I've heard the same complaints about iTunes from musicians big and small. So THAT'S how I know "all those reasons", but I guess that's probably not good enough for you.

My brother's band CD is on Itunes and yes the deal is not great. (They had 3 top 40 hits last year on USA charts)

*Prince should have an internet presence-but let others handle it. Create a youtube account get paid by each play with an AD. Good way of promoting himself.

*OP question

I guess it comes back to how much value you equate with a lossy download.

Don't get me wrong, I use iTunes for the odd EP or single track, but to date the only album I've ever purchased was L.A.M.B. by Gwen Stefani (and that was with Pepsi caps back in 2004).

I just can't justify buying a whole lossy album on iTunes when my local F.Y.E. has it for $9.99.

Most people won't hear the difference, but for future's sake you don't have the full album. You also can't resell iTunes downloads if you tire of the album later in life.

I guess that's the mentality nowadays though - pick apart an album for the best 2 or 3 tracks and download those. That's why bands like Radiohead boycott iTunes, because they don't want their albums picked apart.

coketa77 said:

Focus guys_! Let's stay on point. Should the man try the internet again? I think so, one more crack at it!

I think everyone's in agreement:

• Yes, try it again

• No yearly membership fee

• No fancy graphics

• Offer a pay-per-download page

• Offer viewable/downloadable concerts

• Stay mentally-invested in this one

Se7en said:

Whatever comes up online for Prince, I am all in. Just as I was for NPG music club and lotusflow3r. I dont miss anything and I get all that can be gotten from those sites - which is why I never cry about the price or bring ripped off. It s all worth more thna you pay when you take the time to take full advantage. At least that has been my experience.

Militant said:

Chas, a LOT of musicians, ESPECIALLY independent ones like Prince, don't like iTunes.

Why? Well first of all, you don't get any metric data on sales. No list of email addresses of fans who bought your album for your database. No geographical sales breakdown except for country, which is useless.

Secondly, Apple take what is perceived to be an unfair cut. 35% of each song and album sale. Their service isn't anywhere NEAR good enough to justify that. You think Prince is ready to give away 35% of each sale for no reason? HELLLLLLLL NO! Why should he?

Thirdly, you play by THEIR rules in terms of how much promotion you get. If you want song of the week, album of the week, track of the day, or whatever fucking promotions they offer these days, it's up to them to make the call, and you better kiss some ass to get it. I've heard this directly from major label execs themselves. They all hate the system and having to bend to Apple's will. You think Prince is gonna bend to ANYONE's will for good promotion? Nope.

Fourthly - Apple won't pay Prince upfront for iTunes sales. Target will, and did. The Daily Mail will, and did. The Daily Mirror will, and did. Rolling Stone will, and DID. Fans will, and did. So why exactly should Prince go with iTunes again? When as soon as the album is released, people are gonna stick it on blogs and torrents for free, and reduce Prince's income from sales? Upfront payments means Prince doesn't give a fuck about people bootlegging it. He got paid. The downside is that he (arguably) doesn't give a fuck about promotion either. He got paid.

It doesn't matter anyway though, because iTunes is about to get decimated by Google Music. And unlike Apple, who happened to stumble into being part of the music industry (Oh, all the MP3 player hardware on the market sucks, we'll make one of our own!), Google actually give a damn about doing it right, and already have all the major labels more impressed with their service than Apple, and willing to help them out. I'm going off topic now though so I'll stop and get back to the point - iTunes is laughable to Prince and rightly so. It's laughable to me, and he sells a lot more records than I do

Whether he likes iTunes or not, he's been down the other road too, independently releaseing things on the internet via mail order or download, and he's never happy with the amount of money it makes and the fanbase walks away with a very bad taste in their mouth time after time.

I applaud him for trying to do his own thing and being a pioneer in distributing and promoting his music on the internet in the early days. But at this point, an entire infrastructure has been built up around him and surpassed him, with a system that works very well for the end-user and pretty well for the artist. He could be taking advantage of it. But he's not, because iTunes won't pay him an advance. Talk about an old, failed business model that he, better than anyone, knows leads to problems. The advance system, after all, is exactly the root of everything he was bitching and moaning about the record industry for all those years.

I think he's actually afraid to let his music succeed or fail on its own merits. He wants an advance because he has no faith in the ability of his work to sell, so he can get his money up front and leave someone else holding the ball when they've got backstock of albums (and books) to sell for $5. And if he were to make his money on a merit-based system, such as iTunes or at Amazon or any of the other digital music stores, he might actually have to go out and promote his albums for a change so that they will sell. He tried the advance system, straight from the fans with lotusflow3r.com, and by all accounts it failed miserably, from the fans' perspective and apparently from his, based on what the web developer said. He's now down to releasing his albums solely through Target and a few newspapers in Europe. It may work for him in the short term, for a quick fix of cash, but he is increasingly devaluing his art and career, marginalizing his own music, by not making it readily available to anyone who wants to buy it.

errant said:

Militant said:

Chas, a LOT of musicians, ESPECIALLY independent ones like Prince, don't like iTunes.

Why? Well first of all, you don't get any metric data on sales. No list of email addresses of fans who bought your album for your database. No geographical sales breakdown except for country, which is useless.

Secondly, Apple take what is perceived to be an unfair cut. 35% of each song and album sale. Their service isn't anywhere NEAR good enough to justify that. You think Prince is ready to give away 35% of each sale for no reason? HELLLLLLLL NO! Why should he?

Thirdly, you play by THEIR rules in terms of how much promotion you get. If you want song of the week, album of the week, track of the day, or whatever fucking promotions they offer these days, it's up to them to make the call, and you better kiss some ass to get it. I've heard this directly from major label execs themselves. They all hate the system and having to bend to Apple's will. You think Prince is gonna bend to ANYONE's will for good promotion? Nope.

Fourthly - Apple won't pay Prince upfront for iTunes sales. Target will, and did. The Daily Mail will, and did. The Daily Mirror will, and did. Rolling Stone will, and DID. Fans will, and did. So why exactly should Prince go with iTunes again? When as soon as the album is released, people are gonna stick it on blogs and torrents for free, and reduce Prince's income from sales? Upfront payments means Prince doesn't give a fuck about people bootlegging it. He got paid. The downside is that he (arguably) doesn't give a fuck about promotion either. He got paid.

It doesn't matter anyway though, because iTunes is about to get decimated by Google Music. And unlike Apple, who happened to stumble into being part of the music industry (Oh, all the MP3 player hardware on the market sucks, we'll make one of our own!), Google actually give a damn about doing it right, and already have all the major labels more impressed with their service than Apple, and willing to help them out. I'm going off topic now though so I'll stop and get back to the point - iTunes is laughable to Prince and rightly so. It's laughable to me, and he sells a lot more records than I do

Whether he likes iTunes or not, he's been down the other road too, independently releaseing things on the internet via mail order or download, and he's never happy with the amount of money it makes and the fanbase walks away with a very bad taste in their mouth time after time.

I applaud him for trying to do his own thing and being a pioneer in distributing and promoting his music on the internet in the early days. But at this point, an entire infrastructure has been built up around him and surpassed him, with a system that works very well for the end-user and pretty well for the artist. He could be taking advantage of it. But he's not, because iTunes won't pay him an advance. Talk about an old, failed business model that he, better than anyone, knows leads to problems. The advance system, after all, is exactly the root of everything he was bitching and moaning about the record industry for all those years.

I think he's actually afraid to let his music succeed or fail on its own merits. He wants an advance because he has no faith in the ability of his work to sell, so he can get his money up front and leave someone else holding the ball when they've got backstock of albums (and books) to sell for $5. And if he were to make his money on a merit-based system, such as iTunes or at Amazon or any of the other digital music stores, he might actually have to go out and promote his albums for a change so that they will sell. He tried the advance system, straight from the fans with lotusflow3r.com, and by all accounts it failed miserably, from the fans' perspective and apparently from his, based on what the web developer said. He's now down to releasing his albums solely through Target and a few newspapers in Europe. It may work for him in the short term, for a quick fix of cash, but he is increasingly devaluing his art and career, marginalizing his own music, by not making it readily available to anyone who wants to buy it.

amen

'dre

If it involves a membership fee...never, never, NEVER-EVER!!!! I blame my own dumb-shit self for paying for that last disaster of a site.

If it's a FREE sign up, with downloadable stuff I can choose to purchase, then I am in. But with Prince's track record, no way am I seeing this wishlist.

NOT going 2 happen.

Graycap23 said:

NOT going 2 happen.

Sometimes......being different is just being stupid.

TheDigitalGardener said:

Se7en said:

I think everyone's in agreement:

• Yes, try it again

• No yearly membership fee

• No fancy graphics

• Offer a pay-per-download page

• Offer viewable/downloadable concerts

• Stay mentally-invested in this one

And offer a choice between mp3 and lossless.

Agreed, but to be fair: the LotusFlow3r downloads were available as either MP3 or WAV. Original NPGMC was MP3, then Musicology store went to the abysmal DRM-WMA files.

Outside of his fanbase, NOBODY is that interested in new Prince music. He knows this, hence the numerous strange ways of distribution he constantly attempts to come up with. He might as well accept he's a legacy artist now, make money touring, bring back something similar to the NPGMC, open the vault and pay-per-download. It's not that difficult. He is though, common sense never prevails with Prince.

Marrk said:

Outside of his fanbase, NOBODY is that interested in new Prince music. He knows this, hence the numerous strange ways of distribution he constantly attempts to come up with. He might as well accept he's a legacy artist now, make money touring, bring back something similar to the NPGMC, open the vault and pay-per-download. It's not that difficult. He is though, common sense never prevails with Prince.

As much as I hate to admit it, I have to agree with this.

He needs to let Rhino deal with selling/distributing the music on CD and vinyl, and use internet and satellite radio to keep his music out there 24/7.

I think he meant selling music over the internet was dead, but this was at the end of 15 years of trying different things out on the internet.

It would be great to have a 24 hour Prince channel on Sirius/XM, including airing live concerts as well as everything in the vault. And he would've gotten paid. Springsteen and the Stones got their checks and didn't have to do much on their end. All they would need to do is put up a schedule, but it would've been great to hear members of the band playing their favorite songs, doing a radio show, Prince stopping in, or even basing the show out of Paisley Park which would've been possible.

Prince has 5 or 6 greatest hits albums, but AC/DC? Zero. They have enough pull to stop their label from releasing hits packages. The closest you get is the Iron Man 2 soundtrack and the DVD of their videos over the years.

^ Don't forget the Who Made Who soundtrack.

TheDigitalGardener said:

errant said:

forget the clubs, the subscriptions, the ahdio shows, the member chatroom. register a domain name and put your music up there to buy on a per-track or per-album basis. what is so damn hard about that?

I agree, and as well as mp3, offer a lossless alternative.

And hi-res artwork.

[Edited 1/15/11 7:43am]

He wouldn't even need mp3's to download. That would take someone to "maintain" the site, which is where the sites get bogged down. Just sell new and old cd's, live dvd's, pre sale concert tickets, and clothing. Then hire a bunch of people to put the orders together and mail them out.

Aside from the Crystal Ball fiasco, the npgmc site before the downloads worked perfect for me. Esp with albums like ONA piano, ONA live, and Days of Wild Montreal.

I just want the music. I still feel that he could put all the bootlegs and illegal downloads to shame if he just sold high quality cd's and dvd's himself. oh well.

Tremolina said:

I have said for years that Prince should just have a simple website with MUSIC, just lots and lots of music, to be purchased with just the click of a mouse, per song, per album or per live show.

It should be an easy to use website that offers the music at a fair price, with a decent customer service. It should contain as much as possible of all his officially released, as well as all of his unrelased music. It should also offer unedited soundboard recordings of many of his live shows.

It should not, I repeat not, contain anything else than that, other than a word of news every now and then. That means no 'exclusive memberships', no forums, no pictures of Prince in fancy cars and clothes, no coffee mugs or icehockey shirts, no flashy nonsense or floating jellyfishes in a purple universe, no religious mumbo jumbo, no nothing of that.

Just music man, nothing but loads and loads of great music. And a ticket service when there are shows.

--

[Edited 1/16/11 16:35pm]

ditto.