Spinlight said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

1st of all which NPG line up.

2nd Prince's playing of course got better over time, so if the Revolution continued playing with him as a band of course their playing would get better too.

Let's say a particular NPG line up has been playing since 1982 which outside of Wendy Melvoin is when the Revolution was intact (you know what I'm saying)

Say both bands continued till 2010, only by that could we compare the bands as far as their playing skills.

As a band the Revolution ended in 1986 so that's the last we get of them over 20 yrs ago

The Revolution as a band to me executed the album songs much better than any band. When I hear them play the songs it sounds similar to Prince's sound on the album. Prince's sound is pretty distinct.

I will say out of all the band member Lisa Colemans spot has never been filled.

I don't buy that. The SOTT band did a great job of executing the SOTT album. The 93-96 NPG did a fantastic job of executing the Gold material.

What I'm saying, for the distinct sound Prince had more inthe 1980's than any other, the Revolution/pre Revolution band did a closer job of having the album song done live.

The SOTT/Lovesexy band did too, because they mostly were from that era where Prince made sure the bands/proteges did that. Dr Fink Eric Leeds Mico Sheila being a part of that

OldFriends4Sale said:

Spinlight said:

I don't buy that. The SOTT band did a great job of executing the SOTT album. The 93-96 NPG did a fantastic job of executing the Gold material.

What I'm saying, for the distinct sound Prince had more inthe 1980's than any other, the Revolution/pre Revolution band did a closer job of having the album song done live.

The SOTT/Lovesexy band did too, because they mostly were from that era where Prince made sure the bands/proteges did that. Dr Fink Eric Leeds Mico Sheila being a part of that

But I think that, in some cases at least, the new musicians interpret the songs -better-. I think, for instance, the NPG has always done "If I Was Your Girlfriend" superior to the SOTT/LS band. I honestly cannot think of one song that I think the Revolution did better than any other band. Truthfully. While I dig the Revolution stuff on record, I've never been much of a fan of the live shows they did. Seemed way too dense and noisy to me!

The Revolution by far for so many obvious reasons, but most importantly because they instilled some of the inspiration of the recorded music itself by their very existence.

The end of the Revolution in essence also signaled the end of Prince's creative and artistic growth. The output before and after the Revolution is light night and day. Critics and consumers both immediately took notice. Whether we want or like to accept it, that is the truth.

[Edited 12/17/10 16:49pm]

V10LETBLUES said:

The Revolution by far for so many obvious reasons, but most importantly because they instilled some of the inspiration of the recorded music itself by their very existence.

The end of the Revolution in essence also signaled the end of Prince's creative and artistic growth. The output before and after the Revolution is light night and day. Critics and consumers both immediately took notice. Whether we want or like to accept it, that is the truth.

[Edited 12/17/10 16:49pm]

That is what YOUR truth is, perhaps, but not the truth for everyone.

The Revolution

The SOTT/Lovesexy band w/ Lisa & Wendy8-)

The Revolution (featuring Dez Dickenson, Shelia E., Eric Leeds, & Atlanta Bliss)!

Spinlight said:

V10LETBLUES said:

The Revolution by far for so many obvious reasons, but most importantly because they instilled some of the inspiration of the recorded music itself by their very existence.

The end of the Revolution in essence also signaled the end of Prince's creative and artistic growth. The output before and after the Revolution is light night and day. Critics and consumers both immediately took notice. Whether we want or like to accept it, that is the truth.

[Edited 12/17/10 16:49pm]

That is what YOUR truth is, perhaps, but not the truth for everyone.

Don't cut V10LETBLUES short so easily. You have to take in consideration that Prince's first 3 #1 hits on Billboards Hot 100 USA Singles Chart (When Doves Cry, Let's Go Crazy, Kiss) were made when The Revolution existed as a band.

Now don't get it twisted. Prince still writes his own songs 97% of the time. All I'm saying is The Revolution was THE only band in Prince's career that would give him a second opinion whenever necessary. The New Power Generation & The Lovesexy Band NEVER gave Prince second opinions at all.

Prince happened to be at his songwriting peak when he was with the revolution. The revolution didnt have anything to do with Lets Go Crazy, When Doves cry or Kiss. Prince wrote those songs and they were not written or even co written with someone else. Most artists are at their peak at that age.

I like the revolution more, but come on, they didnt have anything to do with most of prince's biggest hits.

hhhhdmt said:

Prince happened to be at his songwriting peak when he was with the revolution. The revolution didnt have anything to do with Lets Go Crazy, When Doves cry or Kiss. Prince wrote those songs and they were not written or even co written with someone else. Most artists are at their peak at that age.

I like the revolution more, but come on, they didnt have anything to do with most of prince's biggest hits.

I never said they did.

hhhhdmt said:

Prince happened to be at his songwriting peak when he was with the revolution. The revolution didnt have anything to do with Lets Go Crazy, When Doves cry or Kiss. Prince wrote those songs and they were not written or even co written with someone else. Most artists are at their peak at that age.

I like the revolution more, but come on, they didnt have anything to do with most of prince's biggest hits.

Ummm, Prince had very little to do with Kiss as well. His original demo bears little resemblance to what it became during the Mazarati session when he snatched it back.

Seriously, there can be no discounting the effect that W&L had on Prince's music. Their contribution (and the contribution of their siblings) is all over ATWIAD, Parade, SOTT. Their inspiration stretches even further. If you were to remove what they added, those albums would be a LOT less colorful and interesting... and you could, at the very least, kiss Mountains and Sometimes It Snows In April goodbye entirely.

jtfolden said:

hhhhdmt said:

Prince happened to be at his songwriting peak when he was with the revolution. The revolution didnt have anything to do with Lets Go Crazy, When Doves cry or Kiss. Prince wrote those songs and they were not written or even co written with someone else. Most artists are at their peak at that age.

I like the revolution more, but come on, they didnt have anything to do with most of prince's biggest hits.

Ummm, Prince had very little to do with Kiss as well. His original demo bears little resemblance to what it became during the Mazarati session when he snatched it back.

Seriously, there can be no discounting the effect that W&L had on Prince's music. Their contribution (and the contribution of their siblings) is all over ATWIAD, Parade, SOTT. Their inspiration stretches even further. If you were to remove what they added, those albums would be a LOT less colorful and interesting... and you could, at the very least, kiss Mountains and Sometimes It Snows In April goodbye entirely.

Well, you could kiss the rest of the catalog goodbye, because I am sure he wouldn't have written the same songs had he never encountered Susannah Melvoin (the prime inspiration and his main consort during his most prolific and culturally relevant era).

So, I don't think we can speak in absolutes in THAT regard. But we can pick and choose which is more aesthetically pleasing. Personally, as far as live shows are concerned, the Revolution is just not a great band. The arrangements did nothing to showcase talent like Lisa Coleman (who was buried in the mix), Brown Mark (who was less of a presence/stage personality than the girls or Jerome), etc. I digress.

As far as on record? The NPG had more influence and participation than any band he's ever had. And that even goes for most incarnations of the NPG. While the Revolution might have flavored his output, the Revolution did not really sit down and write songs that would go on an album together. It just didn't happen that way as that isn't how Prince worked at the time and rarely has worked that way since. As far as I can recall, there's no documentation talking about Prince ever writing a song with Lisa and Wendy the way he would've written something like "Adore".

The difference between The Revolution and most incarnations of the NPG is that the NPG has never really had a stage personality like The Revolution did. Each member of the Revolution was depicted as being just as important as the next. They were an ensemble cast, not Prince's backup band. The NPG has never been able to step out of that shadow - ever. Even after giving them stage names and trying to design these personas for them (read: Tommy Barbarella, Rosie Gaines, Tony M), they never elevated to the same level that Prince was on like The Revolution seamlessly did. This is probably because The Revolution was Prince's band when he came on the scene. The general public saw Prince and the Revolution as a package deal. The NPG has never been as important to the general public as The Revolution.

But that doesn't mean The Revolution is more important to Prince's artistic development. I dare say that Prince's musical evolution from 1989-2010 has been so entirely varied, disruptive, chaotic, enlightening, tear-jerking, rage-inducing, gag-reflex-testing, that it's impossible to compare it to The Revolution. Even when trying to segment the NPG, we come up with so many variations on the band that it becomes a daunting task. How many versions of the NPG have there been? Two dozen? Somewhere around there. And which members of the NPG were around the longest? Morris Hayes holds the record at the moment, I believe. Renato has been around for about a decade or more. Dr. Fink, while not a member of the NPG for terribly long, was one of the founding members of the band and was with Prince for over a decade and had a HUGE influence in both NPG and Revolution compositions (check Madhouse 24 versions 1, 2, 3....).

So while I understand that some people feel very strongly about the span between 1999 and SOTT, let me remind you that the albums in that bracket that were the strongest and most artistically clever were the ones with the least amount of Revolution interference (1999, SOTT). Yes, a huge portion of Prince's mythology was created during the Revolution's existence, but on the merit of impact on his career, ethics, artistic development, musical range, and style, the NPG obliterates any memory of the Revolution and rightly so.

TonyVanDam said:

The Revolution (featuring Dez Dickenson, Shelia E., Eric Leeds, & Atlanta Bliss)!

that's the Purple Rain line up, minus Dez & Atlanta

jtfolden said:

hhhhdmt said:

Prince happened to be at his songwriting peak when he was with the revolution. The revolution didnt have anything to do with Lets Go Crazy, When Doves cry or Kiss. Prince wrote those songs and they were not written or even co written with someone else. Most artists are at their peak at that age.

I like the revolution more, but come on, they didnt have anything to do with most of prince's biggest hits.

Ummm, Prince had very little to do with Kiss as well. His original demo bears little resemblance to what it became during the Mazarati session when he snatched it back.

Seriously, there can be no discounting the effect that W&L had on Prince's music. Their contribution (and the contribution of their siblings) is all over ATWIAD, Parade, SOTT. Their inspiration stretches even further. If you were to remove what they added, those albums would be a LOT less colorful and interesting... and you could, at the very least, kiss Mountains and Sometimes It Snows In April goodbye entirely.

we can go back further with Lisa Coleman because Prince worked a lot with her when she come on for Dirty Mind

Spinlight said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

What I'm saying, for the distinct sound Prince had more inthe 1980's than any other, the Revolution/pre Revolution band did a closer job of having the album song done live.

The SOTT/Lovesexy band did too, because they mostly were from that era where Prince made sure the bands/proteges did that. Dr Fink Eric Leeds Mico Sheila being a part of that

But I think that, in some cases at least, the new musicians interpret the songs -better-. I think, for instance, the NPG has always done "If I Was Your Girlfriend" superior to the SOTT/LS band. I honestly cannot think of one song that I think the Revolution did better than any other band. Truthfully. While I dig the Revolution stuff on record, I've never been much of a fan of the live shows they did. Seemed way too dense and noisy to me!

Again, we are dealing with 'time' the SOTT band for example who played the song as soon as it came out. vs a later band who heard and probably played the music for years.

I'm not as poetic as you in getting my thoughts on paper or cyberpaper. But for me show like the 1st Ave 1983 Prince Birthday show 1984, pre 1999 rel shows at 1st ave really demonstrate the raw rendition of the music that still felt like Prince music for me.

If I was a musician hired for the NPG in 2000 if I'm a fan of the music I've probably been jammng that music for years, having played it on cd or on instrument.

I think the timing the bands hand to really get the music in them where they can flow with it live makes a difference. the PR Revolution did mostly Purple Rain/1999 stuff and I believe it was Prince's hopes for the music to be layered and dense cold and smokey. If the PR music came across as funk RnB it would be PR. and then that same band jumped from a 'cmputer cold' sound to a more organic jazzy sound. Over night not having solidified themselves in that other sound. I do believe the Parade Revolution did a very good job live with the Parade shows, Being able to execute songs like Christopher Tracey's Parade ATWIAD Life Can Be So Nice and they still sound very similar to the album is very good. Hearing the perform A Love Bizarre jam it out and still have all those foundational Prince elements, doing 'long versions' of songs like Kiss Love or Money and you feel the album cut too me is awesome... but I'm a simple dude

Spinlight said:

). Yes, a huge portion of Prince's mythology was created during the Revolution's existence, but on the merit of impact on his career, ethics, artistic development, musical range, and style, the NPG obliterates any memory of the Revolution and rightly so.

100% co-sign.

Chas said:

I think the SOTT/Lovesexy band was his best, but that's just my opinion.

that was truly his best band

OldFriends4Sale said:

TonyVanDam said:

The Revolution (featuring Dez Dickenson, Shelia E., Eric Leeds, & Atlanta Bliss)!

that's the Purple Rain line up, minus Dez & Atlanta

That whole line-up would cover tracks from the Controversy era to the Dream Factory/Crystal Ball/Sign 'O' The Times era.

OldFriends4Sale said:

Spinlight said:

But I think that, in some cases at least, the new musicians interpret the songs -better-. I think, for instance, the NPG has always done "If I Was Your Girlfriend" superior to the SOTT/LS band. I honestly cannot think of one song that I think the Revolution did better than any other band. Truthfully. While I dig the Revolution stuff on record, I've never been much of a fan of the live shows they did. Seemed way too dense and noisy to me!

Again, we are dealing with 'time' the SOTT band for example who played the song as soon as it came out. vs a later band who heard and probably played the music for years.

I'm not as poetic as you in getting my thoughts on paper or cyberpaper. But for me show like the 1st Ave 1983 Prince Birthday show 1984, pre 1999 rel shows at 1st ave really demonstrate the raw rendition of the music that still felt like Prince music for me.

If I was a musician hired for the NPG in 2000 if I'm a fan of the music I've probably been jammng that music for years, having played it on cd or on instrument.

I think the timing the bands hand to really get the music in them where they can flow with it live makes a difference. the PR Revolution did mostly Purple Rain/1999 stuff and I believe it was Prince's hopes for the music to be layered and dense cold and smokey. If the PR music came across as funk RnB it would be PR. and then that same band jumped from a 'cmputer cold' sound to a more organic jazzy sound. Over night not having solidified themselves in that other sound. I do believe the Parade Revolution did a very good job live with the Parade shows, Being able to execute songs like Christopher Tracey's Parade ATWIAD Life Can Be So Nice and they still sound very similar to the album is very good. Hearing the perform A Love Bizarre jam it out and still have all those foundational Prince elements, doing 'long versions' of songs like Kiss Love or Money and you feel the album cut too me is awesome... but I'm a simple dude

Co-sign!!!! All of it, OF4S, my friend! The Revolution and the SOTT/Lovesexy band were the bizness!! And the way the Rev would go on into a jam and just play, a la Baby I'm A Star, was just magical! Same for the SOTT with their versions of It's Gonna Be A Beautiful Night and Housequake. I've never heard ANY incarnation of the NPG jam like they did. And yes, I've definitely heard A LOT of NPG shows.

And, there's no way in hell that the NPG did IIWYG better than the SOTT band!! Are you kidding me, Spinlight?? You mean tell me the NPG has done a version better than the New Years Eve 1987 verion?? The SOTT movie version?? GTFOH!! Where is it, then? Which NPG performance of IIWYG can even hold a candle to either one of those?

the bottom line is that it is Prince himself that has written most of his best songs. Yes prince has everything to do with kiss, he did snatch it back, so what? He wrote it, and either way the revolution certainly didnt have anything to do with it. The only exceptions are 17 days (co-written with the revolution) and 7 (co written with NPG). And a couple of others like Starfish and Coffee (Sussanah M). Outside of these songs, prince has written all of his best stuff by himself. And even the above mentioned songs were co-written, not entirely written by others.

I actually like the revolution more then NPG. However i do think that Prince would have written most of the great songs that he did write even if the revolution had not existed.

I'm the one, who prefers NPG to The Revolution ?

My fav albums are D&P, Emancipation, The Gold Experience and The Love Symbol.

The Revolution but not the Purple Rain Rev, The Parade Rev

chelsearodgerslovesya said:

I'm the one, who prefers NPG to The Revolution ?

My fav albums are D&P, Emancipation, The Gold Experience and The Love Symbol.

Is that the same NPG band for each album?

hhhhdmt said:

the bottom line is that it is Prince himself that has written most of his best songs. Yes prince has everything to do with kiss, he did snatch it back, so what? He wrote it, and either way the revolution certainly didnt have anything to do with it. The only exceptions are 17 days (co-written with the revolution) and 7 (co written with NPG). And a couple of others like Starfish and Coffee (Sussanah M). Outside of these songs, prince has written all of his best stuff by himself. And even the above mentioned songs were co-written, not entirely written by others.

I actually like the revolution more then NPG. However i do think that Prince would have written most of the great songs that he did write even if the revolution had not existed.

I don't think so. Everyone on this earth get's ideas inspiration help etc etc from others. No man is the complete sourse of everything.

It's almost like saying, if he wasn't in love with Susannah or didn't know her we would still have the Beautiful Ones, the Family, songs from the Dream Factory & SOTT

the output of music from the 1983-1986 years is still the largest volume and the reason is not just Prince. Yet Prince is the man with the plan. Not taking anything away from that. But all those unreleased albums/songs, all the B sides and long version + the best protege years aren't in that time from by coincedence

Point is when Lisa Coleman joined her relationship with Prince her musical background and ideas had a lot to do with the music. Lisa Coleman composed a few pieces that Prince made into a song ie Power Fantastic. Songs like Sometimes It Snows in April, Computer Blue, Strange Relationship

the Purple Rain album was more of a joint venture than people think. I have a mp3 interview-Chicago with Lisa & Wendy and they talked a lot about how Purple Rain music was written.

Power Fantastic was recorded mid March 1985
a song based on a composition by Lisa Coleman called "Carousel"
according to engineer Susan Rogers
Prince sang in a corner of the room
It was some of the most intimate experience of her career:
She felt at the very center of artistic creation
Eric Leed, who played a lilting flute solo
walked out of the studio feeling goose bumps
"That's one of the greatest things we ever did," he remembered

Susan Rogers noted this song was "Nailed in one take"

Power Fantastic was supposed to be one
of the cornerstones of Prince & the Revolutions
next project the Dream Factory


Late at night, when the world is sleeping
U r frightened, 'cause the Power's creeping
In your room is something u're afraid of
Life or doom is what this feelings made of
Power Fantastic
Is in your life at last
U're a little apprehensive
'Cause what it is is what u want and need

[Edited 12/18/10 17:33pm]

SoulAlive said:

Chas said:

I think the SOTT/Lovesexy band was his best, but that's just my opinion.

that was truly his best band

but in answer to the question posed- I have to say the Revolution without a doubt.

paisley16 said:

SoulAlive said:

that was truly his best band

but in answer to the question posed- I have to say the Revolution without a doubt.

What were the early days like? How would you compare those experiences to your times “officially†with the Revolution?

FINK: It was a very creative time. I mean, there was a lot of influence and input from band members towards what he was doing. Even thought he was doing most of the recording and writing on the first two albums, there was still influence there and still a lot of ideas being thrown around that he could draw from. He was always open to anybody trying to contribute creatively to the process of writing. It wasn’t really until Dirty Mind that he brought in myself to perform on that record. I’m trying to remember: I think the first two albums he really did all himself; I don’t believe he had any other people involved from the band at that point. Then going forward from there, he kept bringing in group members, to do some session work or have some co-writes here and there.

When the whole “Revolution era†started up, it opened up a lot of possibilities for Prince’s sound. How did the writing process work with him? For example, how did you got about writing a song like “Computer Blue�

FINK: Well “Computer Blue†really grew from a seed, so to speak, that took place during a jam session. We’d always warm up before rehearsals doing free-form improv rock/jazz music jams, and someone would start a chord progression (or Prince would or one of us would) or in this case on that day, I started playing that main bass groove which was the main bass part for “Computer Blue†which was later brought into that. So the band started grooving on it, next thing you know we’re all sort of joining in, doing some jam on that. Prince started coming up with some stuff [and] we recorded a rough version of it and he took it into the studio and just incorporated it all and made it fly that way. Lisa & Wendy came in and they did some of the stuff on it. Prince borrowed the bridge/portal section from his own father who had given him some music over the years to play around with. So that particular song was a real mixture of different people and influences. So that’s how that one came about. So I kind of germinated the beginning of it—the bassline, the main groove, Bobby Z. was there to play the drums, of course—and that’s how it evolved. Prince, ya know, he really was the main lyricist and melody maker for the songs and I’m pretty sure very rarely took or did not take any lyrical content from people. He was really the main guy on that.

How about you, Alan? How collaborative was Prince during this time? Who did he play best off of in the ever-changing Revolution lineup?

LEEDS: Wendy and Lisa particularly brought Prince a musical camaraderie he was unaccustomed to. During the course of the Purple Rain Tour, his posse of musicians swelled to include Sheila E. and horn players Eric Leeds and (Atlanta) Matt Blistan. Prince spent scores of hours jamming and recording with various combinations of these musicians—sometimes also including Levi Seacer and Matt Fink. While much of this activity was just jamming for fun, Prince was unusually open to learn from those around him. Lisa, a wonderfully talented keyboardist, brought a sophisticated arsenal of chordal ideas. Wendy brought a Joni Mitchell-inspired melodic sense. Sheila brought her rich variety of rhythms and Eric brought his background in jazz and arranging. Their frequent jams casually brought these things out. It’s also been well documented that Wendy, Lisa, and Eric were exposing Prince to musics he was unfamiliar with by regularly turning him onto albums by a wide variety of artists including Miles Davis and Duke Ellington. In short, it was probably Prince’s most curious phase of his evolution as a musician and thus he was the most open to “outside†influences. On the other hand, most of the wealth of material recorded during this phase remains officially unissued. So the songs that Prince did choose to include on his albums were more often those he had written himself.

During his time with the Revolution, a lot of people argue that this was Prince’s most prolific and creative period. Of course, you were there for those three major Revolution albums (four if you count 1999), so what do you feel the Revolution’s greatest challenges were, and—conversely—what were its greatest successes were as a band?

FINK: Well, obviously the Purple Rain album was the most successful and we got the most creative input on the record as far as some co-writes and playing on the album. Around the World in a Day—I really didn’t really participate in very much. That one was another one of Prince going in and doing what he wanted to do away from the band except for maybe a little bit of input from Wendy & Lisa on that record. After that, same thing. Going forward from there, he really had his own vision. By the time Sign ‘O’ the Times rolled around, I was fortunate to have, again, a co-write on the song “It’s Gonna Be a Beautiful Nightâ€, but that was also primarily a Prince-induced song. It was taken from my influence of musical jam much in the way that “Computer Blue†was germinated. Lovesexy: another Prince production all the way through.

So, as a band, you had less input over the years.

FINK: Yeah, but Wendy & Lisa, I’d say from Purple Rain through Parade, were pretty integral to the session work on those records.

Alan, how would you equate the Revolution to the New Power Generation later on? Are they even comparable?

LEEDS: For my personal taste, the most exciting Prince bands were the expanded Revolution on the European Parade tour and the band with Sheila E. on drums for the Sign ‘O’ the Times tour. Sonny Thompson and Michael Bland may have, in some ways, been Prince’s best ever rhythm section simply because they play so extremely well together. But I never felt the music recorded during the NPG era was as interesting as the 1980’s albums. Unfortunately, the format of Prince’s heavily produced tours, and even his increasingly predictable after-shows, didn’t consistently afford the band members much opportunity to display all their abilities. It was, after all, Prince’s show. But I never felt he got everything he could have out of players with such diverse vocabularies as Sheila and Eric.

luv4u said:

Both

jtfolden said:

hhhhdmt said:

Prince happened to be at his songwriting peak when he was with the revolution. The revolution didnt have anything to do with Lets Go Crazy, When Doves cry or Kiss. Prince wrote those songs and they were not written or even co written with someone else. Most artists are at their peak at that age.

I like the revolution more, but come on, they didnt have anything to do with most of prince's biggest hits.

Ummm, Prince had very little to do with Kiss as well. His original demo bears little resemblance to what it became during the Mazarati session when he snatched it back.

Seriously, there can be no discounting the effect that W&L had on Prince's music. Their contribution (and the contribution of their siblings) is all over ATWIAD, Parade, SOTT. Their inspiration stretches even further. If you were to remove what they added, those albums would be a LOT less colorful and interesting... and you could, at the very least, kiss Mountains and Sometimes It Snows In April goodbye entirely.

He recorded most of his so called ´classics´ with the Revolution and he was very creative back then, but I prefer to listen to the NPG. Michael B is my fave drummer and I love Sonny T on bass and Barbarella on keys. They were very funky.