rudedog said:

Want to turn someone into an atheist, give them a Bible and tell them to read it, not what their pastors and ministers tell you to read.

Also, incidentally, a great way to make someone a Christian.

LayzieKiddZ said:

I love how you all cry when I asked the simple question and take it like an insult or something like some sort of hardcore groupy sluts. Plus I didnt know there were other threads.

Who cried? When I initially saw the thread title I braced myself for much worse. I think people were basically very civil and, in fact, helpful (granted one was a little battle-weary ).

It's a bit silly to say that you didn't know there were other threads - you really didn't think this topic had ever been discussed on a long-running Prince fansite?

I'm not saying you shouldn't have posted - heck, I'm enjoying the discussion.

What I would suggest is that you either think about the wording of your post when it comes to these sorts of topics (eg. "I'm sure this has come up before, but I'm really interested in current posters' thoughts...." or similar), or else don't stress when people complain about an old topic being dredged up.

You've only really only served to stir the pot with this post. Notice that you're the first (and still the only one) throwing insults.

ThreadBare said:

But he took their money.

They invested in him.

And, he signed up for lucrative -- some would say laughably lucrative -- contracts with them.

Their gripe was often against flooding the market with his product. From a business perspective, that was smart. They also seemed to have a feel for consistency. Prince, when left to his own devices, hasn't always been the best judge of a good song. Quality control can be helpful to him.

I get the creative process. I also get the benefit of having someone who isn't particularly wedded to your artistic process or motivation being able to objectively tell you that Song A will be a great lead-off single for your new album. It can be hard to marry the commercial and the artistic, but Prince had already bought the ticket for that show.

Because. He. Took. Their. Money. Repeatedly.

Im guessing when you say THEIR money you mean the advances he got from his albums.

The thing about advances is that it isn't "free money"

They are advances, and they are recoupable through publishing and your artist sales royalty.

I.E. it must be paid back.

Prince was his own producer, and he sold reasonably enough to be pay back his advances and make a little profit. And when you get as big as P, you only have to recoup about half to 3/4 of your advance and keep the rest.

But advances are nothing compared to steady royalties from sales and mechanicals, thats the real bread and butter, because it lives off the duration of the copyright.

Most advances go to recording costs etc

LayzieKiddZ said:

hardcore groupy sluts.

There is a price 2 freedom

I do believe that musicians/singers should have ownership of their music

But I believe the issues that start between Prince & WB had nothing to do with that.

Prince's world had changed, even with Diamonds & Pearls and a few hits ofter that, he was not 1980's His Royal Badness anymore, the music scene changed and Prince just wasn't hot like he was. Michael Jackson & Madonna when they dropped an album etc etc were still very much big and in demand.

I think Prince blamed WB for the drop in his star status so 2 speak

But WB bent way over backwards 2 give Prince what he wanted from the start.

In the 1980's Prince could have easily asked for a release of "Roadhouse Garden" & Around the World in a Day, After Purple Rain Prince could have asked WB for just about anything and gotten it. He was spending their money let's remember as well. It was the bad business decisions that caused WB to be a bit more cautious with Prince near the end of the 80's into the 90's. They backed his Under the Cherry Moon movie, it was Prince who thought he could do anything and started firing people who were 5star rated directors and actors. He didn't listen to good advice about the musical elements:live/band renditions. And he paid the price. They thought the Lovesexy tour set was super expensive but they believed in his pitch and he got what he wanted. They believed in SOTT and were ready to push it to the max, Prince didn't and I believe he suffered as a result. Angrily he wanted to release the Black album, they didn't think there were many radio hits but pushed 4 the project anyway, spent the money on the it and then Prince wanted to drop it. Via the black market it was in the top 5 on the charts, but it made Prince nor WB any money.

vitriol said:

jonty1975 said:

Fuck oath - from what i have read he has done the right thing, it is his work and he should be allowed to have complete control of it especially considering the amount of coin WB were getting from him..

Whatever.

Since he left WB his albums are worse, somewhat more scarce, normally more expensive and more difficult to get. He stopped 'proper' touring, now it's the fans who have to tour to see him play, ticket prices are damn higher and cancelations are more frequent. Finally, he mastered the 'wrong decisions' marketing model.

In a word, it was clearly a lose/lose/lose situation. WB lost, he lost and us fans (with N) lost.

I don't agree at all if P is happy and we are getting and enjoying his music its all good

LittleNicci said:

vitriol said:

Whatever.

Since he left WB his albums are worse, somewhat more scarce, normally more expensive and more difficult to get. He stopped 'proper' touring, now it's the fans who have to tour to see him play, ticket prices are damn higher and cancelations are more frequent. Finally, he mastered the 'wrong decisions' marketing model.

In a word, it was clearly a lose/lose/lose situation. WB lost, he lost and us fans (with N) lost.

I don't agree at all if P is happy and we are getting and enjoying his music its all good

Are you getting his music? always easily?

Do you have 20Ten yet?

For him he probably was-however I'm not convinced prince is where he thought he would be.

I think the problem of moving away from a record label is that it is hard to produce your own hype. So in this respect a new album is nolnger an event.

The knock on event of not playing the game is that you don't produce hits-just collections. With this you have to rely on a very sophisticated audience. I think Prince has that-tho it is no where near as large as I suspect he thought that was.

Without events and hits you get the problem even folks get here-that they can find the live stuff boring because he mainly pays hits.

Prince is a walking conflict here because to play to the size of the audience he wants to he HAS to play hits- For core fans that is tedious. To achieve fulfilment of his current audience he needs to play new music but if he wants that audience to be large he also needs that new music to be hits

ThreadBare said:

rudedog said:

Want to turn someone into an atheist, give them a Bible and tell them to read it, not what their pastors and ministers tell you to read.

Also, incidentally, a great way to make someone a Christian.

They aren't reading the whole thing. Just the "good parts".

OldFriends4Sale said:

LittleNicci said:

I don't agree at all if P is happy and we are getting and enjoying his music its all good

Are you getting his music? always easily?

Do you have 20Ten yet?

yeah got it the day it came out and always have managed to get his music pretty easily !!!

ThreadBare said:

But he took their money.

They invested in him.

And, he signed up for lucrative -- some would say laughably lucrative -- contracts with them.

Their gripe was often against flooding the market with his product. From a business perspective, that was smart. They also seemed to have a feel for consistency. Prince, when left to his own devices, hasn't always been the best judge of a good song. Quality control can be helpful to him.

I get the creative process. I also get the benefit of having someone who isn't particularly wedded to your artistic process or motivation being able to objectively tell you that Song A will be a great lead-off single for your new album. It can be hard to marry the commercial and the artistic, but Prince had already bought the ticket for that show.

Because. He. Took. Their. Money. Repeatedly.

This is exactly my problem with that whole sorry chapter in Prince's career.

He signed a contract extension with WB as late as 1993 - then turned right around and started bashing the company. You cannot tell me that, at some point between 1977 and 1993, someone did not hip him to what he was signing - again and again and again.

And for him to equate his situation with slavery was incredibly offensive. I don't care what explanation he tried to give for it. I think that, more than the name change, is what turned a lot of people off him.

[Edited 10/6/10 12:31pm]

He raised awareness of artist's rights, or the lack of them.

However, instead of taking his 'freedom' and running with it, he's complained about his lack of it ever since.

LayzieKiddZ said:

His music before then was much better produced in my opinion. After that, the hits were meh, and not enough quality songs even though alot was released. And his classic sound was gone. Maybe he shoulda just kept his cool and did things the way he was doing it before.

Since I rarely listen to radio anymore I could care less that there's a 'hit'.

Now ... To answer your question: it does not seem Prince has been affected by not being with the WB because he's still released album and album since his time with the WB. Most of the admirers/fans of P's music have been upset with the direction P has taken with the music but, it's been a 'transition' from him being a JW.

It seems the WB was behind him and promoted this and that album, up until The Gold Experience came out and he started debating and arguing with them about putting out Mayte's album and Exodus by him and The NPG.

If he didn't still continue making music and putting out albums, I would have been upset but, when he first left, I was 'so' feeling him. I was an artist with a record company and got screwed over too, so I 'know' where P was coming from ...

Nuff said ...

Genesia said:

ThreadBare said:

But he took their money.

They invested in him.

And, he signed up for lucrative -- some would say laughably lucrative -- contracts with them.

Their gripe was often against flooding the market with his product. From a business perspective, that was smart. They also seemed to have a feel for consistency. Prince, when left to his own devices, hasn't always been the best judge of a good song. Quality control can be helpful to him.

I get the creative process. I also get the benefit of having someone who isn't particularly wedded to your artistic process or motivation being able to objectively tell you that Song A will be a great lead-off single for your new album. It can be hard to marry the commercial and the artistic, but Prince had already bought the ticket for that show.

Because. He. Took. Their. Money. Repeatedly.

This is exactly my problem with that whole sorry chapter in Prince's career.

He signed a contract extension with WB as late as 1993 - then turned right around and started bashing the company. You cannot tell me that, at some point between 1977 and 1993, someone did not hip him to what he was signing - again and again and again.

And for him to equate his situation with slavery was incredibly offensive. I don't care what explanation he tried to give for it. I think that, more than the name change, is what turned a lot of people off him.

[Edited 10/6/10 12:31pm]

I see your point. But maybe he signed on again coz he needed the capital after all the investments building Paisley Park etc. Still I think he earned that money as he would have been a very "productive employee." He was probably naive in thinking that being a success and hard working they would just "respect his ownership rights." When he discovered it wasn't like that, he reacted strongly because how else do you react against a huge corporate/conglomorate to make a statement?

And while I agree he might have carried on about this "freedom" thing long afterwards, I often think the amount of time you invest your heart and soul into something is the time it takes to over something truely, after it has turned around and bitten you. The anger at least.

I don't have a problem with him fighting for his freedom.

But it was a very stupid move to actually sign a longtime "100 million dollar" contract, and then start rebelling against it one year later. He obviously didn't read the fineprint. That was the dumbest career move possible, imho.

[Edited 10/7/10 0:11am]

OldFriends4Sale said:

LittleNicci said:

I don't agree at all if P is happy and we are getting and enjoying his music its all good

Are you getting his music? always easily?

Do you have 20Ten yet?

Oh, COME ON! Don't play the naive one. Nowadays everything is "available" for free.

No he was wrong.

Wrong because he knowingly and willingly signed a contract with 8 zeros he later wanted out of.

Wrong because no matter what he did he knew he had to fullfill the contract anyhow.

Wrong because it made him look like a spoiled, offensive and insane "artist".

Wrong because his music suffered from it.

The "freedom" and "artistic integrity" that were Prince's arguments weren't actually any arguments at all. He knowingly and willingly signed all that away for millions in cash advances. In the end he still had to fullfill every contractual obligation he entered into and rightfully so. If he had chosen just to execute his part of the deal and leave WB after it was finished he would have been much better off.

yes

Tremolina said:

No he was wrong.

Wrong because he knowingly and willingly signed a contract with 8 zeros he later wanted out of.

Wrong because no matter what he did he knew he had to fullfill the contract anyhow.

Wrong because it made him look like a spoiled, offensive and insane "artist".

Wrong because his music suffered from it.

The "freedom" and "artistic integrity" that were Prince's arguments weren't actually any arguments at all. He knowingly and willingly signed all that away for millions in cash advances. In the end he still had to fullfill every contractual obligation he entered into and rightfully so. If he had chosen just to execute his part of the deal and leave WB after it was finished he would have been much better off.

Bohemian67 said:

There's nothing worse than someone managing you who doesn't have a clue about what you do but only has $ signs as pupils.

I didn't understand it at the time and didn't research it. In later years now, I have and I think he did the right thing. A musician has soul and corporates don't. Prince does what he wants to do now, music wise and commercially. That's a freedom few can afford. It also comes with disadvantages of course "doing it your own way" but I think the sacrifice was worth the price.

He's able to make "music" now that he wants and needs to do. No profession is fun if you're stuck at one level. He knew he could make hits and millions off them. He wanted to expand his repertoire which I think he's done successfully. He doesn't want to please the masses, he wants to please himself, and those who appreciate him for who and what he is "in every musical sense," benefit.

He set a precedent. He made a statement and he's still making money. How many million did he rake in with the Musicology tour? He doesn't need them. Or at least, when and if he does, he should use them the way they used him. It's crazy if you make something and because of a contract, on paper you're not the owner. Sure he needed them in the beginning for the initial investments but power in corporations normally knows no end, and he became a puppet to their vision not his own. Most people don't want that and a musician surely least of all.

You are Right!!

LayzieKiddZ said:

His music before then was much better produced in my opinion. After that, the hits were meh, and not enough quality songs even though alot was released. And his classic sound was gone. Maybe he shoulda just kept his cool and did things the way he was doing it before.

In a word...YES!!! And his music is IMO just as good now, some better than the WB days..it's all a matter of taste. Some people site his leaving WB as his downfall b/c he slipped out of mainstream...that happens to the best of artists, b/c kids taste change. He is still making classic songs right now, his new ablums are freaking amazing too, some better than the WB days!

LayzieKiddZ said:

Spinlight said:

Then google them or use the search function.

Signed,

Groupy Slut

Some topics are gonna have to come up again at some point, groupie slut.

That's true! I think it's alot more fun to discuss it now than just read a thread 5yrs old!

LittleNicci said:

vitriol said:

Whatever.

Since he left WB his albums are worse, somewhat more scarce, normally more expensive and more difficult to get. He stopped 'proper' touring, now it's the fans who have to tour to see him play, ticket prices are damn higher and cancelations are more frequent. Finally, he mastered the 'wrong decisions' marketing model.

In a word, it was clearly a lose/lose/lose situation. WB lost, he lost and us fans (with N) lost.

I don't agree at all if P is happy and we are getting and enjoying his music its all good

I think that if Prince is happy then it's all good. Since he has to look out for him like the rest of us, then it was the right decision. Maybe not for his money train, but for his sanity and happiness, then yet. He is still making money and he seems happier doing his own thing, so right on to him! He should make decisions that make him happy, regardless of what others things, including media, fans, labels, etc. He has that right!

ThreadBare said:

rudedog said:

Want to turn someone into an atheist, give them a Bible and tell them to read it, not what their pastors and ministers tell you to read.

Also, incidentally, a great way to make someone a Christian.

Amen!

I don't know if he was right fighting WB.

I do know he needs somenone or some company that helps him making good decissions.

I mean like:

• what music to put on an album
• how to decently promote it
• how to build up a good and consistent relation with your fans

I think it must be working for him, otherwise he would have abandoned the mission.

(This doesn't mean it is working for the listeners.)

[Edited 10/8/10 8:04am]

remko said:

I don't know if he was right fighting WB.

I do know he needs somenone or some company that helps him making good decissions.

I mean like:

• what music to put on an album
• how to decently promote it
• how to build up a good and consistent relation with your fans

He Doesn't Care.

This is my love hate relationship with Prince. I've hated everything he's done after the ONA and musicology era. But I respect him as an artist and a business man.

Simply because he puts out what he wants when he wants to and makes some cash on the side.

He doesn't care about the fans (which as an artist is a great place to be, because artist are usually slaves to their fans, back when TRC came out, it was bashed to death partly because of the G O D thing, but c'mon its always been there, if you can tolerate him singing The Christ, you can tolerate that)

Here's where I don't agree with him. I think Prince has a lot of contempt for his fan base

as my man Lester Bangs would say, thats the ultimate "sin", for any performer.

This contempt has arisen in my theory after the NPGMC days, which where great in the beginning but began emulating a totalitarian fascist regime during its demise. I think thats when P turn a little bitter towards us.

Which I kinda understand... because i was there and when P performed with Beyonce.

The first threads afterwards where "Baby I'm a sellout"

ouch...

still no excuse tho...

Personally I think the NPGMC days was P's golden age. Lot of good music came out of it.

But I dunno something happened afterwards.

Now that I think about it.

Alot happened...

I mean him and Mani got divorced.

Believe it or not, the women/woman a musician surrounds himself with, has a lot to do with their outlet of music.

When he was with mani, his stuff was pretty inspired. Musicology included

then it all went to hell afterwards...

thats my little rant on that...

Prince ecentually needed to return to the public eye even if it meant performing with Beyonce. There is a good reason why his name has risen in the list of all time greats, its because of the performances of the past six year, grammy, hall of fame, superbowl etc. Plus he got back some of the critical sucess he had lost.

hhhhdmt said:

Prince ecentually needed to return to the public eye even if it meant performing with Beyonce. There is a good reason why his name has risen in the list of all time greats, its because of the performances of the past six year, grammy, hall of fame, superbowl etc. Plus he got back some of the critical sucess he had lost.

I dunno if he "needed" it.

But it was pretty obvious what he was doing and he made the right decision.

Not sure what "critical success" your talking about.

The only ones I can think of is that he's finally gotten some guitar props.

Remember the Rolling Stone Fiasco by snubbing him on the 100 Greatest guitarist, then after RR Hall of Fame...

Reissue.... hehe

thats about it though.

Cause I don't care what anybodies said

The quality of the music declined after Musicology

Essayvee said:

He did what he felt was best for him, but the only thing i can say about it is that WB knew a hit and i dnt think Prince did. I don't remember what song or album this was about (i have bad memory sorry) but he was arguing to release a different song to what WB wanted as the first single, won and it flopped in the charts, then when the other song was released it did well- thats what i base my opinion on anyway. I respect the guy a lot for doing his own thing tho.

Yes, I'm sure that this came up more than once but since it was near the start of his tantrum, I recall that WB wanted to promote "7" as the first single from but Prince resisted, instead focusing on My Name Is Prince, Sexy MF, etc... finally when "7" was released, the album had a real hit single... and then Prince was ready to move on while WB wanted to promote that album further (which would have been the correct thing to do, imo, it had a lot of potential hits).

Part of the problem here is that Prince wasn't as attractive to mainstream listeners at that point and it seems as though anytime a song or album didn't become an immediate hit, when he thought it should, this was always, somehow, someone else's fault other than his own.

He never appeared to care about certain rights or his masters until his gravy train began running out of gas. He repeatedly signed contracts, extensions, agreements, etc... He was not conned into it. By that point in his career, he knew damn well what he was signing - and if he didn't it was no one's fault but his own. It's no different today when he expects advance payment for everything, Prince didn't like having to actually WORK for those ridiculous bonuses that WB offered him.

Instead of using his cheek as a post-it note, he should have got his shit together, maturely fulfilled, or negotiated the way out of, the contract he willingly signed and THEN done things the way he wanted. His tantrum did no one any good. Not himself, not WB, and not the purchasers of his music.

SO... was he right to fight with WB? NO. He should have handled that situation more maturely.

Was he right in wanting to do things his own way? Sure, with the above in mind.