So we all know that Sign O The Times was originally Dream Factory but was cut down because Warner told Prince to do so. Judging by the songs we've heard from Dream Factory, do you think that Sign O THe Times would've been better, ever more of a classic album as Dream Factory?

Discuss.

smoothcriminal12 said:

So we all know that Sign O The Times was originally Dream Factory but was cut down because Warner told Prince to do so. Judging by the songs we've heard from Dream Factory, do you think that Sign O THe Times would've been better, ever more of a classic album as Dream Factory?

Discuss.

most def..

my head would explode listening to all of that on the first listen

i seriously wouldn't know how to handle all of that great music in one album

SOTT is sorta DF anyway, save for a few tracks and new versions of old ones.

That being said I dig both but DF is my shizzz... Something about SOTT feels disjointed to me, the songs don't really mesh well together, at least to my ears. DF is a little disjointed too, honestly, but I kinda dig that. Its like a little bit of everything... that being said tho, it's better that SOTT was realeased as it was, DF woulda been panned becuse it was too all over the place.

[Edited 8/30/10 20:50pm]

Very ironic that you brought this up. I was just telling a friend my thoughts on this not 3 days ago. I pulled up the Dream Factory playlist in iTunes, and played through it. I just didn't dig it.

I think that although the album was supposed to just be a compilation of random songs, the problem lies in the fact that it actually feels that way. It's a bit too random. Even Crystal Ball had some sort of ebb and flow to it.

Dream Factory suffers from any sort of focus or goal about it. A lot of the songs have a darker edge to them eithe rmusically or lyrically. But then you throw in throw-aways like "A Place In Heaven" or "Visions", and it feels jumbled and aimless.

When he whittled it down to Sign O The Times, that random track which became the title track set the mood of the entire disk. "Dream Factory" failed to do that for its set. I like the paired down two-disk set. It emotes a darker edge throughout, even in songs like "The Cross". Also, I'm not a fan of the extended noodling of "I Could Never Take The Place Of Your Man", but I do favor the DF version of "Strange Relationship".

Sign O The Times is classic because of what it is. I think the genius that is on SOTT would have been lost and/or watered down on Dream Factory, and it would not have been considered as much of a genius album as it is today. Words like "filler" would have been used about DF. I've never really heard that used for SOTT.

SOTT = classic

DF = sloppy

[Edited 8/30/10 20:51pm]

not sure of the original playlist for DF but when i heard the title track on the Crystal Ball set i wasn't impressed. SOTT as a SONG is much better.

datdude said:

not sure of the original playlist for DF but when i heard the title track on the Crystal Ball set i wasn't impressed. SOTT as a SONG is much better.

1. "Visions"
2. "Dream Factory"
3. "Train"
4. "The Ballad of Dorothy Parker"
5. "It"

Side B

1. "Strange Relationship"
2. "Starfish & Coffee"
3. "Interlude"
4. "Slow Love"
5. "I Could Never Take the Place of Your Man"

Side C

1. "Sign 'O' the Times"
2. "Crystal Ball"
3. "A Place In Heaven"

Side D

1. "The Cross"
2. "Last Heart"
3. "Witness 4 the Prosecution"
4. "Movie Star"
5. "All My Dreams"

smoothcriminal12 said:

So we all know that Sign O The Times was originally Dream Factory but was cut down because Warner told Prince to do so.

I think you mean Crystal Ball, that was the 3LP that was cut down to do and renamed SOTT. Dream Factory was the Revolution double LP that preceeded it, although they share many tracks.

Any way, I think SOTT was better off as a 2LP. And I do think that earlier configs. of Dream Factory were slightly better than the last one.

There are flaws in both, so I made a mesh of both releases, and added some tracks with one rule, that the track had to have been completed by March of 1987. The only bend of that rule, is that there is no clear sounding version of "Joy In Repetition," without the stupid I Know/Alphabet St segue. Typical Prince hack job....he has a song with his best Drum Programming ever, and drowns it out with some stupid "More holes than a golf course," joke he already did before...so I had to use the Graffiti Bridge track...but in my fantasy below, it is all good...

Anyways...here was my "vision" of what SOTT/Dream Factory/Crystal Ball SHOULD have been:

Disc One:

Visions

DF Intro

The Dream Factory

Train

The Ballad of Dorothy Parker

It

Strange Relationship

Slow Love

Interlude

I Could Never Take The Place of Your Man

Sign"O" The Times

Play In The Sunshine

Housequake

A Place In Heaven(Prince lead vocal)

Movie Star

Last Heart

Forever In My Life

The Cross

Disc Two:

U Got The Look

If I Was Your Girlfriend

Crystal Ball

Power Fantastic

In A Large Room With No Light

Rock Hard In A Funky Place

Witness 4 The Prosecution

Data Bank

Girl O' My Dreams

Can't Stop This Feeling I Got (Original...of course)

We Can Funk (Original...of course)

Joy In Repetition

All My Dreams(full version, but an edit might fit better)

Old Friends 4 Sale (Original...of course)

Conclusion: This configuration has a really nice flow to it. I would say this is the best mix I have ever made ever....I sometimes pretend that Prince took a long break after Purple Rain, and I have the chore of deciding which ATWIAD and Parade Tracks to mesh with this...what to include, and what to leave out. Kiss woulda been great on SOTT as another big hit to make the thing sell. Kiss and U Got The Look woulda been a great 1-2 punch of hits... Sometimes I only include the SOTT versions. I can make tons of different versions, and enjoy it all. I kind of feel bad that Hot Thing got left out on this one...I purposely leave out It's Gonna be a long long long long Beautiful, and sometimes boring night. Woulda been a classic 12 inch funk jam, but it took too much time on my favorite Prince record.

stillwaiting said:

All My Dreams(full version, but an edit might fit better)

Old Friends 4 Sale (Original...of course)

You should reverse those two. They were originally reversed. If you listen closely to the beginning of "All My Dreams", you can hear the last strands of "Old Friends 4 Sale" fading out as "Ohhhh ohhh alll my dreams" fades in.

ernestsewell said:

stillwaiting said:

All My Dreams(full version, but an edit might fit better)

Old Friends 4 Sale (Original...of course)

You should reverse those two. They were originally reversed. If you listen closely to the beginning of "All My Dreams", you can hear the last strands of "Old Friends 4 Sale" fading out as "Ohhhh ohhh alll my dreams" fades in.

I can't hear it on my version from the Work, but I can't find my old Charade boot.. but I can think of multiple blend ins with Prince in that era. I think it would sound great that way, but I think "Old Friends" is the ultimate closer for any album I put it on. I can't imagine anything else being a closer. When I make a version including Parade tracks, Sometimes It Snows In April closes sometimes...but "Old Friends.." Is just SOOOOO Great as a closer.

I'd disagree. "All My Dreams" has a more "finale" type feel to it, and ends any album on a more positive note. The one thing I hated about Parade was the sad note it all ended on. The whole thing is supposed to be about love and being together forever, then it ends w/ the death of a person. At some point. Prince obviously thought "All My Dreams" was a closer to an album, by putting it after "Old Friends 4 Sale".

ernestsewell said:

datdude said:

not sure of the original playlist for DF but when i heard the title track on the Crystal Ball set i wasn't impressed. SOTT as a SONG is much better.

1. "Visions"
2. "Dream Factory"
3. "Train"
4. "The Ballad of Dorothy Parker"
5. "It"

Side B

1. "Strange Relationship"
2. "Starfish & Coffee"
3. "Interlude"
4. "Slow Love"
5. "I Could Never Take the Place of Your Man"

Side C

1. "Sign 'O' the Times"
2. "Crystal Ball"
3. "A Place In Heaven"

Side D

1. "The Cross"
2. "Last Heart"
3. "Witness 4 the Prosecution"
4. "Movie Star"
5. "All My Dreams"

It's really too bad. This is a lot of material, but is a terrible tracklist and does no justice to the material.

I usually agree with most of those posting here, to a point anyways. I think with Prince's 1984-87 period, he could basically take damn near any 14-24 tracks and make a killer double, triple, or whatever album, and it would've been a classic. Having SOTT, Kiss, U Got The Look, and I Could Never on one release would've been the best of both worlds: A critical success and sales figures to die for. If he had played the MJ/U2 game of having a new album every 3 years or so...he would have retained sales without saturating the market. Now, I think MJ waited a bit too long, where U2 had it just about right, until the 2000's, where they waited a bit too long. Just think...the follow up to Purple Rain could've been SOTT, with the public HUNGRY for new Prince. The follow up to SOTT could've been in 1990, and would've been HUGE:

I Know

Alphabet St

Thieves In The Temple

Tick Tick Bang

The Question of U

Elephants And Flowers

Dance On

Lovesexy

When 2 R In Love

Le Grind

Cindy C

Open Book

Anna Stesia

I Wish U Heaven

Still Would Stand All Time(more of a mix of a studio cut of the small club version..more guitar)

Of course, this is such an odd mix...all those songs sound so nice where they are now...but if you didn't know them from their original source, this would've been a grand follow up.

stillwaiting said:

I usually agree with most of those posting here, to a point anyways. I think with Prince's 1984-87 period, he could basically take damn near any 14-24 tracks and make a killer double, triple, or whatever album, and it would've been a classic. Having SOTT, Kiss, U Got The Look, and I Could Never on one release would've been the best of both worlds: A critical success and sales figures to die for. If he had played the MJ/U2 game of having a new album every 3 years or so...he would have retained sales without saturating the market. Now, I think MJ waited a bit too long, where U2 had it just about right, until the 2000's, where they waited a bit too long. Just think...the follow up to Purple Rain could've been SOTT, with the public HUNGRY for new Prince. The follow up to SOTT could've been in 1990, and would've been HUGE:

I Know

Alphabet St

Thieves In The Temple

Tick Tick Bang

The Question of U

Elephants And Flowers

Dance On

Lovesexy

When 2 R In Love

Le Grind

Cindy C

Open Book

Anna Stesia

I Wish U Heaven

Still Would Stand All Time(more of a mix of a studio cut of the small club version..more guitar)

Of course, this is such an odd mix...all those songs sound so nice where they are now...but if you didn't know them from their original source, this would've been a grand follow up.

You picked all songs from 1987-1990. Which is fine. But there was a marked stylistic shift from Parade to SOTT, from SOTT to LoveSexy, from Graffiti Bridge to Diamonds, etc.

He'd already fucked himself, but if he had waited to release Crystal Ball in 1988 or 1989, it would've done better than SOTT and LoveSexy combined, imo. Too many albums, too soon. The dirth of material is imposing and since most of the stuff from a given era sounds similar, it can be tedious for people.

You picked all songs from 1987-1990. Which is fine. But there was a marked stylistic shift from Parade to SOTT, from SOTT to LoveSexy, from Graffiti Bridge to Diamonds, etc.

He'd already fucked himself, but if he had waited to release Crystal Ball in 1988 or 1989, it would've done better than SOTT and LoveSexy combined, imo. Too many albums, too soon. The dirth of material is imposing and since most of the stuff from a given era sounds similar, it can be tedious for people.

Well, unless you missed something in my post...Prince ALWAYS was reaching back to old songs for nearly every single release. ICNTTPOYM is from like 1981, hell tick tick bang was from 81/82 as well...Future Soul Song is old...The Dance was demoed nearly 10 years before 3121, and then was on one of those Chocolate invasion thingys.

1984-Purple Rain

1987-Sign O The Times Crystal Factory(whatever u wanna call it)

1990- my selections above

If Prince did it this way, nobody would know that the songs I chose for each release were old unless he told us...which he or somebody usually did after the fact. The 3 year break in releases would've made the public hungry for more...the album every year thing ruined his career...as well as not touring in the US. He should've toured EVERYWHERE to promote his releases...USA, Europe, Asia, and yes...other markets too.

U2 had the perfect Management in this era, but even as my FAVORITE BAND, they can't begin to even sniff at the level of writing Prince was at. He just sucked at marketing, and surrounded himself with YES men...instead of Managers Managing him, he Managed the Managers. Fargnoli, Macaroni, and Rufallolavaux had little or no influence after Prince hit it big.

SOTT would've chopped down the Joshua Tree if it was the follow up to Purple Rain. Hell, the main reason U2 won that Grammy, was pristine Management. And, yes, The Tree was 3 years after The Unforgettable Fire...U2 fans were Hungry, and With Or Without You was the track that led their huge rise. Prince should've had Kiss, U Got The Look, and Forever In My Life as his huge singles that Year...with Take The Place, Housequake, and others right behind it. But....it did not happen. He released so many albums, only the die hards gave a crap.

What people keep forgetting is that Dream Factory wasn't finished when it was shelved. So that tracklist/sequence that everyone is so familiar with would almost certainly never have seen the light of day, even if the album had been released.

Dream Factory was concieved as a real 'band' project, where The Revolution would be more present than on previous albums, especially Wendy and Lisa. The album cover was a hand-drawn affair, a collage of images that each band member contributed to. However, due to the immenent break-up of the Revolution (or at least the departure of Wendy and Lisa), Prince had started replacing a lot of the band songs with solo tracks so the album was already moving away from it's original concept.

The previous incarnation of Dream Factory, which was assembled the month before, was far more indicitive of the true concept for the album as a real "Prince and the Revolution" project. Had the Revolution stayed together and the album been released, it's more than likely that it would have changed even further or even returned to this more band-orientated incarnation...

Side A:

1. Visions

2. Dream Factory

3. It's A Wonderful Day

4. The Ballad Of Dorothy Parker

5. It

Side B:

1. Strange Relationship

2. Teacher, Teacher

3. Starfish And Coffee

4. In A Large Room With No Light

5. Sexual Suicide

Side C:

1. Crystal Ball

2. Power Fantastic

Side D:

1. Last Heart

2. Witness 4 The Prosecution

3. Movie Star

4. A Place In Heaven

5. All My Dreams

.

ernestsewell said:

Very ironic that you brought this up. I was just telling a friend my thoughts on this not 3 days ago. I pulled up the Dream Factory playlist in iTunes, and played through it. I just didn't dig it.

I think that although the album was supposed to just be a compilation of random songs, the problem lies in the fact that it actually feels that way. It's a bit too random. Even Crystal Ball had some sort of ebb and flow to it.

Dream Factory suffers from any sort of focus or goal about it. A lot of the songs have a darker edge to them eithe rmusically or lyrically. But then you throw in throw-aways like "A Place In Heaven" or "Visions", and it feels jumbled and aimless.

When he whittled it down to Sign O The Times, that random track which became the title track set the mood of the entire disk. "Dream Factory" failed to do that for its set. I like the paired down two-disk set. It emotes a darker edge throughout, even in songs like "The Cross". Also, I'm not a fan of the extended noodling of "I Could Never Take The Place Of Your Man", but I do favor the DF version of "Strange Relationship".

Sign O The Times is classic because of what it is. I think the genius that is on SOTT would have been lost and/or watered down on Dream Factory, and it would not have been considered as much of a genius album as it is today. Words like "filler" would have been used about DF. I've never really heard that used for SOTT.

SOTT = classic

DF = sloppy

[Edited 8/30/10 20:51pm]

Ernest, that is very impressive insight, I agree and unbelievably well said!! I would wanna bet that when Prince put the final track listing together for SOTT, that he was thinking the same way.

Even the happy, Starfish and Coffee, Play In The Sunshine or the seduction of Slow Love all have a dark tone to them, they belong together. You know these songs, Nice job on this post!

answer: NO!!

I wouldn't change this fine album: Visions, Teacher Teacher, Dream Factory are weak songs imo.

I just love "Sign O' The Times" as it is,

it's just perfect as it is, strong all the way through.

BorisFishpaw said:

Dream Factory was concieved as a real 'band' project, where The Revolution would be more present than on previous albums, especially Wendy and Lisa. The album cover was a hand-drawn affair, a collage of images that each band member contributed to. However, due to the immenent break-up of the Revolution (or at least the departure of Wendy and Lisa), Prince had started replacing a lot of the band songs with solo tracks so the album was already moving away from it's original concept.

The previous incarnation of Dream Factory, which was assembled the month before, was far more indicitive of the true concept for the album as a real "Prince and the Revolution" project. Had the Revolution stayed together and the album been released, it's more than likely that it would have changed even further or even returned to this more band-orientated incarnation....

*raises hand*

I didn't forget sir, I said the previous config was better than the last one.

*sits back down and sticks tongue out at rest of the class*

wow, thanks for posting the track list guys. very helpful. i have a lot of diggin' to do. you guys are top notch, very informed fans

SOTT is perfect the way it is.

Doesn't mean I don't want Crystal Ball tracks on an expanded anniversary edition in 2012.

BorisFishpaw said:

What people keep forgetting is that Dream Factory wasn't finished when it was shelved. So that tracklist/sequence that everyone is so familiar with would almost certainly never have seen the light of day, even if the album had been released.

Dream Factory was concieved as a real 'band' project, where The Revolution would be more present than on previous albums, especially Wendy and Lisa. The album cover was a hand-drawn affair, a collage of images that each band member contributed to. However, due to the immenent break-up of the Revolution (or at least the departure of Wendy and Lisa), Prince had started replacing a lot of the band songs with solo tracks so the album was already moving away from it's original concept.

The previous incarnation of Dream Factory, which was assembled the month before, was far more indicitive of the true concept for the album as a real "Prince and the Revolution" project. Had the Revolution stayed together and the album been released, it's more than likely that it would have changed even further or even returned to this more band-orientated incarnation...

Side A:

1. Visions

2. Dream Factory

3. It's A Wonderful Day

4. The Ballad Of Dorothy Parker

5. It

Side B:

1. Strange Relationship

2. Teacher, Teacher

3. Starfish And Coffee

4. In A Large Room With No Light

5. Sexual Suicide

Side C:

1. Crystal Ball

2. Power Fantastic

Side D:

1. Last Heart

2. Witness 4 The Prosecution

3. Movie Star

4. A Place In Heaven

5. All My Dreams

.

This is the June 3 1986 configuration; this and "Parade" are my top 2 Prince all-time albums.

no offence, but I can't believe people would want prince in the 80's to have released fewer albums... imagine, we would be writing the complete oposite today.

the biggest popgroup ever released 12 studio albums (of which one was a double) in a 9 year timespan (62-70) plus 2 albums worth of singles that weren't on these albums. and they were the biggest popgroup ever.

also: U2 3 years per album? did the 80's last for 18 years?

Freekclaassen said:

no offence, but I can't believe people would want prince in the 80's to have released fewer albums... imagine, we would be writing the complete oposite today.

stillwaiting says: I did not make it clear in my post what the marketing strategy should have been so I thank you for pointing out the obvious....A new album every 3 years, but a new HUGE BOXED SET OF OUTTAKES ABOUT EVERY 10 YEARS.....1990, 2000, 2010....and each one would be bigger than the last one. The 1990 one would have been about 10 cds....and on it goes...so the hardcore fans would have most of what he recorded, and the mainstream fools would just buy his major releases.

Freekclaassen said:

also: U2 3 years per album? did the 80's last for 18 years?

stillwaiting says: U2 had it right in the 80's...they released product in relation to the market. It was the 1990's where they were pretty much in the 3 years wait per album mode.

Freekclaassen said:

the biggest popgroup ever released 12 studio albums (of which one was a double) in a 9 year timespan (62-70) plus 2 albums worth of singles that weren't on these albums. and they were the biggest popgroup ever.

stillwaiting says: The Fat Boys released 12 studio albums??? Oh, perhaps you mean the Beatles. The market was sooooo much different back then. An album could be 28 minutes of music, and the Beatles shaped the market with nearly every move they made. What worked for the Beatles in the 60's did not work for Prince in the 80's or 90's. I like re-writing Prince history for fun. Sure I wish he used some of my strategies, as I was thinking of this stuff as a teenager. I used to write letters to labels suggesting which singles to release, and how to market their music.

By the way, nice post with some nice points. I've debunked them with my opinions, but I will never know how it would've played out. Prince is always there to stop himself. He is always his own worst enemy, but I love him no matter how much {$77) he has ripped me off!!!

My version of Dream Factory:

Visions

Dream factory (w/intro)

Train

Ballad of Dorothy Parker

Strange Relationship

In A Large Room With No Light

Splash

Data Bank

Joy in Repetition

It's A Wonderful Day

A Place in Heaven

Witness 4 the Prosecution

Teacher Teacher

Power Fantastic

Movie Star

All My Dreams

I consider this just as much of an album as SOTTs. With that said I still like SOTTs slightly better. It's funkier.

smoothcriminal12 said:

So we all know that Sign O The Times was originally Dream Factory but was cut down because Warner told Prince to do so. Judging by the songs we've heard from Dream Factory, do you think that Sign O THe Times would've been better, ever more of a classic album as Dream Factory?

Discuss.

Definitely not.

Just look at the the 'final' tracklist for Dream Factory and imagine if that had been released instead (not that it would've been, but that's another story). There's not that much in the way of 'single material' on Dream Factory. In fact the only tracks you can imagine being released as singles were the ones that made it to Sign O' The Times anyway.

Also, you're getting your history a little muddled. Warner didn't tell Prince to do anything with Dream Factory. Prince was the one who decided to shelve it. It was Crystal Ball that Warners weren't keen to release as a triple album and wanted Prince to reduce to a double. Here's the Crystal Ball tracklist...

Side 1:

1. Rebirth Of The Flesh

2. Play In The Sunshine

3. Housequake

4. The Ballad Of Dorothy Parker

Side 2:

1. It

2. Starfish And Coffee

3. Slow Love

4. Hot Thing

Side 3:

1. Crystal Ball

2. If I Was Your Girlfriend

3. Rockhard In A Funky Place

Side 4:

1. The Ball

2. Joy In Repetition

3. Strange Relationship

4. I Could Never Take The Place Of Your Man

Side 5:

1. Shockadelica

2. Good Love

3. Forever In My Life

4. Sign O' The Times

Side 6:

1. The Cross

2. Adore

3. It's Gonna Be A Beautiful Night

.

[Edited 8/31/10 23:47pm]

smoothcriminal12 said:

So we all know that Sign O The Times was originally Dream Factory but was cut down because Warner told Prince to do so. Judging by the songs we've heard from Dream Factory, do you think that Sign O THe Times would've been better, ever more of a classic album as Dream Factory?

Discuss.

Most definately !!!

That's one of the reason why S.O.T.T. is one of my most least 'liked' albums. 'Dream Factory' was the one to get the job done. I prefer DF over S.O.T.T. anyday.

Even if I consider SOTT an absolute milestone in popular music and, with no doubt, the best album of the 80s, I'd rather have Crystal Ball than SOTT. But I'd rather have Dream Factory + Camille than Crystal Ball.

thedance said:

answer: NO!!

I wouldn't change this fine album: Visions, Teacher Teacher, Dream Factory are weak songs imo.

I just love "Sign O' The Times" as it is,

it's just perfect as it is, strong all the way through.

AHHHHHH

Visions isn't really a song, it's just an intro

And a beautiful one to set the scene

Dream Factory as a whole felt like an 'adult' album, meaning maturity

When I hear visions played I think of the SOTT era Prince pic where he is in cream colored clothing with the glasses sitting in a window

Teacher Teacher is a lively playful dancible song, love it, a duet with Susannah it seems I love that song

And Dream Factory weak? Doubt it