Mindflux said:

If you had brought up Rush's 2012 you might...MIGHT have gotten closer to proving your point.
But you are sooooo far off the mark in calling sound samples and embellishments narration that it's laughable.

How can you possibly dig a hole that deep and not see that folks are laughing at you not because I'm wrong...but you're wrong, fool!


Now, certainly the songs in Dark Side tell a narrative in combination with each other, much like NIN's Downward Spiral, but to say it's narration on the level of The Rainbow Children (basically story telling through spoken word as you've implied) is just silly. There is no oracle in Dark Side telling the story. It doesn't need it. Have you even heard the album?



AGAIN.... MASSIVE....MASSIVE....MASSIVE... FAIL.

[Edited 4/16/10 1:23am]

I gotta run, but when I get back I can not WAIT to see you talking out your ass again!

Let me help by explaining my point of view;

"A narrative is a story that is created in a constructive format (as a work of writing, speech, poetry, prose, pictures, song, motion pictures, video games, theatre or dance) that describes a sequence of fictional or non-fictional events. It derives from the Latin verb narrare, which means "to recount" and is related to the adjective gnarus, meaning "knowing" or "skilled".[1] (Ultimately derived from the Proto-Indo-European root gnō-, "to know").[2] [3], but can also be used to refer to the sequence of events described in a narrative. A narrative can also be told by a character within a larger narrative"

The bolded part is precisely how I view the narrative of the spoken parts of Dark Side. Within the overall concept of the album, the quotes, which arc on a journey from birth to death and incorporate the darker subjects of people's lives like violence and madness, push forward the themes of the album and also provide a link between the changing sections of the album. Hence, in my view, they serve as a narrative "within a larger narrative".

Feel free to set out why you can't call it a narrative. And then, shall we just leave it, even if we still disagree? I mean, in the grand scheme of things.....!


[Edited 4/16/10 1:27am]

Mindflux said:

Are you playing with semantics?

I don't disagree with that definition of your post here.

But to say that Prince's narration in Rainbow Children is the same thing as Darkside is way off the mark.

We're talking about a spoken narrative here when we reference the Darth Vador voice. If he had omitted that voice, and just used the album to tell the story, we'd be talking about the same thing then.

But your original, and VERY off-the-mark comment, equates the very clever and nuanced approach of Pink Floyd (which I admit is a very good example of a concept album with a story) to The Rainbow Children's clunky Darth Vador ridden story.

It's apples and oranges. But I'm happen to play that game too.

Hero0101 said:

HEY "Hero", did u actually read Ernest's post? Are u on Ernest's payroll or something? wow! So, your saying Ernest ONLY said he didn't like the album? WHY DONT U ASK ERNEST TO MOVER OVER, SO U CAN GET ANOTHER LOOK AT HIS POST.. ...read again...Ernest actually referred to Prince's and many other's religion as BULLSHIT...you cosign that and people on here know what kind of person u really are...Your defending someone who lives in Prince's past...Hero, I have 4 words for u buddy...and u can whisper this in Ernest's ear as well...THINK ABOUT THE FUTURE!!! u even said u like the musicality of TRC...Yet your defending Ernest who thinks TRC should be in the trash can...pure hypocrasy I tell u. what a shame.

TheVoid said:

small fact check..RUSH 2112, not 2012! im sure it was just a typo but we want it right for the kiddies!

pennylover said:

HERE HERE!

TheVoid said:

Nope - they're not just "sound effects and embellishments", are they? Much more deliberate than that - chosen pieces of rhetoric that allude to the themes of the album.

Likewise, narration is not just "basically story telling through spoken word" and I didn't imply that either - that's what you've inferred because its only on that simple and diluted premise that your basingyour opinion on.

Anyway, clearly you are more interested in ridicule than sensible debate and I think the only one who looks a fool here is you, for taking such an immature stance.

TheVoid said:

Ok - look, you seem like a decent and intelligent enough person, so I'm not interested in this turning in to a tit-for-tat thing. Safe to say though I didn't start off by saying that TRC's narrative is the same thing as Dark Side.

The other thread where this started had you saying that a concept album doesn't require a narrative if its done clever enough. I remarked that Dark Side has a narrative and felt it was successfully done. Somehow we've deviated from that somewhat. I hope you see that I wasn't equating the brilliance of one of the Floyd's finest works with, what I also consider to be the "clunky" narrative of TRC.

Its all good though and I'm still glad we've had this exchange. I think we kind of agree and disagree and that's fine too

Oh, and I'm quite familiar with Rush too - I used to be in a fairly well-known progressive space-rock band, so there were plenty of Rush dvds (mainly due to our slightly obsessive drummer!) and Steve Vai etc being played in the green room
[Edited 4/16/10 2:05am]

Maybe I should post the part of my Masters relating to TRC... there might be people here who haven't read it and would find it interesting (I posted it here a few years ago)... will do that when I get to my computer upstairs.

ernestsewell said:

greyhoodiegirl said:

What? I do. Any musician has the same gift. We play music. We write it. We perform it. We live it. We thrive on it, and starve without it. The differences lie in HOW we've used it over the years. Prince is only a mere human being, like the rest of us, which makes us a lot more alike than different.

ernestsewell said:

all musicians do not have the same gift. some musicians only play classical violin pieces...others create music with complex mathematical sequences...i am a musician too.

we all have gifts, but none of us have the same gift. and im not being rude, but to say that you have the same musical gift as prince is a bit outrageous, as we all know that he is one of the most talented living musicians in the world.

ernestsewell said:

Of course Prince is only human ect etc. But Ernest I really think one can talk about having the same passion for music but not the same gift.

e.g. You get fair lawyers good lawyers, really good lawyers and brilliant lawyers. Put that comparatively into any field, drs, bankers, IT designers, authors etc etc. They are ALL passionate about what they do, but certain ones stand out above the others because they seem to have more talent that others. The guys who invented SAP (4 ibm employees), Bill Gates for ust two examples, they had passion in their field but they also had something else in the lines of talent, know how and expertise to make then stand out from the crowd.

I'm not saying that to put you down or that you don't have talent. I haven't heard your music. But I really think it's a little extreme to equate yourself with P.

I'm amazed at how much attention this Rainbow children thread is getting.
Good for this underrated cd.

ernestsewell said:

I'd actually agree with that..I suppose how one uses their musical gift is what separates the greats from average. I think some people tend to think that Prince is some sort "god of music", or that he invented music or something. When in reality he just has used his musical gift to the to it's full potential.

Mindflux said:

you mean like "I don't know I was really drunk at the time?"

PurpleColossus said:

I believe just about anyone can do anything, we're just humans as ernest said, and Prince only does what a human is capable of.

That said most people's musical gift is not as developed as Prince's

LOL, no not the "same gift", maybe a gift, a different gift, a special gift. Maybe one more appreciated by mom than anyone else. But as we all have something to offer, some gifts are better than others and some bound to be re-gifted or stuck in a bin.

As much as I dislike, TRC i would never diminish Prince's musical gifts by labeling it as the same as everybody else. Of course everything is relative and subjective.

ernestsewell said:

See Ernie as he sees himself. Remember that statement every time he opines about the purple one, U see Ernie thinks he is a genius 2. All your vitriol makes more sense now.

Bohemian67 said:

Well, there's a link in his signature

SPOOKYGAS said:

You're a fool. You can't even pretend to speak for someone because you're so hell bent on being the lowest common denominator that your responses are comical at best. It's cute how you're copying words I use a lot. But perhaps you're on my dick so much because you aspire to be a better person. In reality, that only makes you a wannabe starfucker.

NDRU said:

Exactly. I wish I had developed mine more earlier on, but I'm still alive and I'm still making music on my own. The gifts of God are without repentance. He never recalls them. The same God that gave Prince his gift, gave me my gift, and gave everyone their gift.

I suppose if anyone has a problem with the gifts, they should take that up with God. I don't have to answer for my gifts. I can only try to use them daily. It's like a muscle - the more you use it, the strong it gets.

Mindflux said:

My words exactly:
said:
It has moments of brilliance in it.

And "Everywhere" is just about as joyous as anything on SOTT or LoveSexy.


I just think it's a bit long and tiresome, not to mention the Darth Vador narration being unnecessary. You shouldn't have to narrate a concept album, if you're clever about it.

given in the context of the Darth Vador voice.

Again, apples to oranges. I'm talking about spoken story telling--it's not necessary. And it's just plain distracting from the reason why we buy these albums--the music.

The Rainbow Children is simply a very poorly executed concept album, and treats the audience like it's stupid. But when Prince gets preachy you get that "big snake/little snake" type of approach.

ernestsewell said:

It doesn't always follow that the earlier you start, the better you are. There is a finite limit with some people's talent - some people are only capable of getting to a certain level in their chosen discipline and some people seem to almost endlessly improve and/or innovate. Its right to strive to be better but, for most, there is always a ceiling. That's why not everyone is a world class athlete, or top-flight musician. Its silly to suggest that we all benefit from the same "God-given" talent and all have the same potential to acheive when what we see and experience every day clearly disputes that. There's always someone better or worse than you, as they say.

Which is precisely why people have had a problem with your statement about having the same musical gift as Prince. You can try and hide behind semantics by providing us with truisms like "well, we both make music", but that's a simply ridiculous assertion. You may as well say that a 5-year old randomly spreading paint on paper is Van Gogh because they share the ability to put brush to paper! It just doesn't hold up to rational scrutiny.

I also think you'll find that God is quite capable of removing "gifts" from people - and, it follows that if you subscribe to the idea that talent is God-given, then only God could take it away. Christopher Reeve would be an example. If that was some divine higher purpose going on, then its a pretty horrible way of expediting your will

TheVoid said:

Understood

ernestsewell said:

Hit a nerve did I?

If U were chocolate me thinks U would eat yourself, watch out for the bitter taste though Ernie. Oh and my last post still stands.

SPOOKYGAS said:

The only thing you've hit is a brick wall. Your post stands on sandy ground, at best. You're so obsessed with trying to knock me down, you can't even see straight. You lose.

ernestsewell said:

I am amazed that U have all this time to spare on the org. U would think with that prodigious (self proclaimed) talent U have U would be busy making more music, I mean its what U live 4 right? It must be so hard for U to see Prince waste the same talent that U have on things like the Rainbow Children, when he could be calling U up for advice.

SPOOKYGAS said:

You're becoming overtly friendly w/ that brick wall you've been running into.

SPOOKYGAS said:

yes...ernest, if you truly do live to make your music, perhaps you do spend slightly too much time here at the org arguing with people...