TheNewWatcher2 said:

Ok, so this is quite interesting. Let's say this is coming from the source. What's the aim in saying this? Lower your expectations? (ie. it may not be great, but it's not bad 4 2 8-hr jam sessions). Or, expand your admiration? (as in not only is this a killer track, it was thrown out in no time).

Either way, it's kinda problematic - option 1 is suggesting he admits it's a sub-par track; option 2 means he's blowing his own horn which is in kinda bad taste.

It also raises 2 alternate references:
1. Purple and Gold where he also released a statement sayign it was tossed off very quickly.

2. SOTT/PITS - "Not bad... for a girl"

Bottom line - I'll hope for the last option, that it's tongue-in-cheek. funnily enough, it kinda fits the song. If I treat it as a throwaway jam it's hella impressive. If I think of it as a carefully considered first single, I remain a bit iffy... (but as I said, it's growing...)

NuPwrSoul said:

I disagree with that. This track is a mess, just a bunch of ideas he had lying around edited together in ProTools. It shows his lack of compositional proficiency. Compare this to back in the day, when he recorded the first 4 songs on Parade in one session, actually recording the drums in one go: that guy basically knew what the songs were gonna be like before he even started. C&E is likely nothing but Prince taking a long, not very inspired jam and attempting to make something out of it by editing it and overdubbing it. But he started with cack and thus it never became any good.

TheNewWatcher2 said:

Is it all right to come out now? Have all the blood, fur, and feathers stopped flying? While I don't think C & E is a great song, it isn't that bad either. It doesn't blow me away but it certainly doesn't offend me either! The Current stated that P wanted to see what the public thought about it. I guess he found out! LOL In spades! I don't find overt religious overtones to it; nor do I find the inspiring melody and driving emotive rhythms to raise me to inspiring heights. My view is that it is tentative, experimental, and not finished--P put out a feeler and was met with either love or hate. I feel neither. I know he has more in his arsenal. Whether he chooses to release the effective arrows to our collective hearts waits to be seen. Now I will and let the two opposing forces on the org have it out so I don't get a !

It's hard for me in general to enjoy a lot of Prince's newer music simply because a lot of its naive and ignorant lyrics reflect how bad of a philosopher he is. This guy's mind is weaker than a torture victim being forced to hear the same bad song on repeat for 24 hours (mind you, Cause and Effect would be a suitable choice for such a practice).

It's not the lyrics that bother me in his new song though. The whole thing is a contrived effort with bombastic corny touches and an incoherent melody. This one won't grow on me.

Edit: I'm more than a little amused by people who defend this song by claiming it's at least better than anything being made today. This statement isn't even close to being true unless you're purposely only focusing on the worst of the worst of today's pop scene. Compare him to other established artists like NIN and Radiohead and Prince's output looks embarrassing.
[Edited 2/28/10 16:20pm]

Oh my...so much angst,

But since Princey is obviously waiting to hear what "I" think...

The song sounds very busy and haphazard. I would have left out the hey, hey and the crowd sounds. I also would have either done the vocals with effects or without, not both. I get the impression he was noodling around with multiple ideas at once.

The lyrics make me wonder if he's reminiscing or giving himself a pep talk?

I liked the guitar toward the end and the drumming throughout but ultimately this one didn't grab me, mainly because I was unable to settle into any particular groove.

I just heard it and i didn't mind it. It sounds like a revolution outtake but with that awful overproduction and those chinzty effects. In fact there's something quite new wave about it under all the layers. I expected it to be awful by the previous comments but i'd rather have this on Lotusflow3r than $.

BartVanHemelen said:

Look i don't hate the song but cmon greater technical and compositional proficiency. You sound like Prince's PR. I have to agree with Bart somewhat it just sounds like several ideas edited together in Pro Tools. There's little coherency under all the layers. Some of the elements are interesting though.

Are the lyrics maybe:

"I am what I am - be cause and effect" (makes more sense, no? And the other reading remains an association)

"Born in the image of god - an elect" (at least that way it rhymes )

(Oh, and my MP3 shuffle went from C&E to Prince's "Jelly Jam" and then to Sly's "Spaced Cowboy" - hmmm, C&E doesn't fare well in the comparison...)

i always enjoy your playfulness, Prince. Pro Tools, not so much.

(btw. there are some musos today who are knocking out blasters in 1 4 hour session. just sayin')

PurpleKnight said:

Truer words. I often wonder when people make such a statement just what the hell they're listening to. Then I go over to Other Music and it's all answered. There's more to popular music than Janet Jackson, Beyonce, Michael Jackson and just because you bought a Joni Mitchell album doesn't mean you should consider your expansion of musical horizons a completed affair. I'm generalizing, I know, but by god, the ignorance about contemporary music on this board is at times atrocious. It suits Prince fans in a way I suppose because I don't think Prince has bothered to check out any musical movements since the New Romantics in the early 80's. There have been entire genres created, destroyed and re-imagined while Prince has done nothing but spin his musical wheels.

Most people that are serious fans of pop music are fans of Prince but it's amazing how often you meet a Prince fan whose knowledge of music doesn't go beyond associated acts or music Prince listened to when he was a kid.

Nobody in their right mind who listens to a wide breadth of music would even consider making the statement that Prince's latest output is, if not the greatest, 'at least better than everything else.'
[Edited 2/28/10 16:41pm]

poetcorner61 said:

Jump right in, the water's fine!

The song didn't grab me but I've heard worse. Like you, I don't have particularly strong feelings about it. I figured it was some kind of jam session where he was just throwing out ideas. The religious overtones in his songs never bother me...I grew up listening to gospel music, so his abstract references to religion are lightweight to me.

I think tentative is a good description,

Well C&E hasen't grown on me and I don't think it will. It's 2 messy.

babynoz said:

Yes! P has always had spirituality in his music--and C&E didn't have more than in his past before Rainbow Children. I think he has tried to keep that out of his songs recently with the result of songs not being "Full-hearted." I just listened to "God is Alive," and the message and music is so non-secular, inclusive, and inspiring...I don't see how anyone could not be uplifted by that! I think P is trying to feel out his fans and make "a balance" between his faith and what "they" want. I think that is a real mistake. Prince needs to listen to his own muse--influenced by fans, his church, fam-ily--but ultimatly, listen to his own inner voice and create music despite what is going on, not because of lovers/haters. Listen to the inner muse whether it is approved by your Church or not. Sometimes, God drives and the public doesn't approve!

As one of his strongest supporters over the years I'm left saying "meh" once again with this track. In fact I've only listened to it once, says it all. This song is just another in a long line of ego strokes. It's getting old to the point of absurdity. The self boasts & trademark poses are just sad to me.

When he starts writing from the heart & soul and stops writing from the ego then I'll be more likely to pay attention.

Farfunknugin said:

I agree with every word of this.

PurpleKnight said:

this is the type of critique that's just, well, stupid. Naive and ignorant lyrics? You must be something special, to be able to, without reservation, pretty much call everyone that likes the lyrics "naive and ignorant". If you were someone who showed us his chops with regard to deciphering how the world works, it'd be cool. But thus far I haven't seen any glimpse of greatness. And the torture analogy? How much more corny and unnecessary can you get? He has a weak mind cause you don't like the lyrics??

It's almost like people who dislike his current output, or whatever he does, simply tries to out do others who feel the same with these really corny and contrived critiques, i.e., incoherent melody, crazy time signatures, or whatever else you want to say that you think makes you sound smart. If you had an intelligent breakdown of why you didn't like it that made people think about what you said, it would be great. But this stuff just makes P.org look like a bunch of wannabe musician whiners.

And the comparison to NIN and Radiohead...again, pretty stupid, as to compare one artist to another is, well, pretty stupid.

Took me a while to get to hear this.
Ah well - had hoped for more - even a decent melody would have helped. Please get some people in the studio WITH you and make collaborative stuff. You know - like engineers, good band members, etc...the things you probably once took for granted.
I hear all kinds of cool ideas but dude has lost any cohesion he once had.

Prince, if you really are wanting our reactions and reading this, don't listen to all the crazy people who are saying this song is bad. Personally, this is the exact type of song I love when Prince does, in the very same vein as PFUNK/F.U.N.K.

Keep the ProTools, keep the vocal effects, the synths, and the bells and whistles. Don't listen to these fools.


Also, guys, it's "Made in the image of God's intellect" - duh. That can put to rest the "God and elect" "God and the lamb" etc stuff. Don't be daft

BlackandRising said:

Where do I start with this argumentum ad hominem? First of all, I'm a published philosopher, but I don't need to demonstrate myself to you.

The torture analogy was entirely facetious, which was made apparent when I said the new Prince song could be used for that purpose.

You also commit a straw person fallacy by claiming I argued that he has a weak mind because I don't like his lyrics. I never said that, nor did I say people who like the lyrics are naive and ignorant.

What I did allude to is something like this: that it is overtly apparent in songs like Colonized Mind and Resolution, just to name a few, how dogmatic and/or naive Prince is. This isn't even taking into account embarrassing interviews where he mentions things like Democrats wanting people to be able to do whatever they want, etc. Ugh.

Furthermore, I only pointed out bands like Radiohead and NIN as examples of established artists whose new music remains fresh and challenging within the context of their artistic styles. I wasn't comparing artistic styles.

Look, I don't claim or aspire to be a music expert. You don't need to be to see that the melody to Cause and Effect really is incoherent, or that it really is filled with bombastic corny touches (ex. Hey HEY Hey HEY). That much just leaps out. If you wanna charge me with not being a very good writer when it comes to Prince's new music, I may well be guilty there, but it hardly means I shouldn't be allowed to express a genuine opinion.
[Edited 2/28/10 18:52pm]

babynoz said:

Thanks Babynoz, for getting me out of my ! You don't have to love or hate P's current song to still be a fan! It is ridiculous that we can't let him explore! Jeez! Thanks Baynoz--I want to !

Glad we have so many musicians up and coming ...been waiting a while now for someone to fill Princes Shoes ...im waiting.

CNNBREAKINGNEWS said:

Don't hold your breath.

For every music critic on here with the surefire plan of what Prince needs to be doing i've yet to hear them apply that formula to themselves and create music we'd (by their reasoning) should all be floored by.

I guess we're both waiting...

PurpleKnight said:

See? everyone here isn't a philosophy major, so what's with the "ad hominem", straw person fallacy, yada, yada. And I never said that you weren't allowed to express a genuine opinion. My point is that most the opinions regarding the song, like yours, are simplistic, don't really say anything, and seem to be an exercise in simply trying to be funny/harsh about the song. Again, you state how naive you think Prince is, but you don't explain why. And in simply saying he's weak-minde, his lyrics/philosophy are ignorant/bad, pretty much implies that anyone who likes them are ignorant. I guess being in college blinds you to these esoteric concepts. For instance, I personally think Colonized Mind is pretty straightforward. Not dogma, not naive. Straight talk, in fact. But according to you, I must be naive for liking such drivel. Now if you were to use your philosophy learnin' to explain why you think it's naive or dogmatic, Prince.org would be a pretty interesting place. But instead (and not just you, yours just stood out for some reason), we get hyperbolic critiques that in the end are simply contests to see who can outdo someone else in, well, hyperbole. Just my two cents.

Wall said:

It's a fresh new Prince song and I like it. I may listen to it everyday this week. Only 28 hours? I thought so.

theRight1 said:

I believe, according to another orger, that the NW2 stated ".....two 8 hour jam sessions" not "28 hour jam sessions" like I thought it said at first when I read it too.
[Edited 2/28/10 19:32pm]

BlackandRising said:

You're contradicting yourself. I try to respond with content and now you criticize me (through condescension no less) for pointing out things like straw person fallacies. For what it's worth, I'll always point them out in a post. Why? Because they're obnoxious and make meaningful debate impossible.

You're wrong in saying that stating Prince's lyrics are bad is to necessarily imply that anyone who likes them is ignorant. That doesn't follow. You could still enjoy the lyrics, whether as comedy or as appreciating his expression of the principles of the JW religion, and yet maintain they are ignorant from the perspective of many other more valid epistemic and theoretical frameworks.

You also conveniently ignored my previous posts about this song which went into more detail (although, as I had no problem admitting, this detail is still limited by the fact that I am not a music expert). I don't know how much more detail I'm obliged to provide. I already pointed out reasons for why I don't like the song rather than simply saying, "It fucking sucks", for example. The onus isn't on me to do anything further with my assessment.

I have purposely not given a detailed critical exegesis of songs like Colonized Mind and Resolution (which by the way is not a hasty generalization based on two examples but rather the evocation of two songs that encapsulate the problem found in much of his work from TRC onward) because I don't want to turn this into a lengthy discussion about religion and politics that derails the thread.

Here is one quick example though:

"Upload, the evolution principle
You see a rock on the shore and say
It’s always been there"

This denial of evolution demonstrates positively no knowledge of evolution as a theory and does nothing but imply the superiority of creationism in a baseless, and thus ignorant manner.

Now let's take a quick look at Resolution for naivety:


"The main problem with war
Is that nobody ever wins
The next generation grows up
And learns how 2 do it all over again."

What do we see? A trite pacifistic theme that takes no account of the complexities of geopolitical struggles within the context of factors like corporate imperialism and resource scarcity.

Again though, I don't want to derail the thread with a discussion like this; one which merits its own thread.

BlackandRising said:

Look. It isn't a contest about who's degree is better than the other! What it really speaks to is the passion that people still feel for Prince's music. The fact that so many people get so passionate about it--whether good or bad. I think, at least for the next few years, as long as he keeps putting out new music, he will still have the same effect on fans... You don't need a Philosophy or Psychology degree to see that! By the way, I have my own post-graduate degree--not that it means anything!

poetcorner61 said:

No worries...

babynoz said:

So Babynoz, what did you think about the guitar "solos" in C&E?