I'm listening to a live rendition of "Mountains" from Paris 2009 with the female singers backing him up and he cease to amaze me how great he sounds with he can sing and accompany himself or have 1 to 2 musicians/singers accompany him. I've always wondered why he chooses not to record more songs like this for his albums. He has a knack for singing, writing and playing songs with sparse musical arrangements i.e. ("love" acoustic version), "reflection" or even when he did guitar and voice for the Musicology Special.

bashraka said:

Stripped back, you get to hear the musician for what he is. And as for Elisa and Shelby (?), how amazing were their harmonies?

Especially Elisa. Her vocal timbre is so youthful, energetic and enthusiastic. I was really moved by how well she sung "Shake Ur Body" and Prince backing her vocally. If Prince put more effort like this into his recordings, he would have more hits, more critical acclaim and his reputation as a singer-songwriter and producer would be much more valued by the music community at large rather than the die-hard Prince fans like us. I also like his acoustic version of "Love" from 3121.

How perceptive... However, in this day of instant communication online we definitely get our money's worth - as opposed to the days when Mountains was in the charts...

Were peeps so keen to point out matters like "overproducing" in those days? Nope. Now we have the luxury of hearing an "overproduced" song like "Love", then at the click of a mouse, voila! we can treat ourselves to an "acoustic" rendition of it, and we profess to love it more than the "overproduced" version of it whilst pontificating from our cosy armchairs just how much more recognition an artist might get if only he did this or that as we see fit...

We're just spoilt now, but in reality we've never had it so good

Handel said:

I understand your point: with the advent of the Internet, there's more ways to hear the stripped-down songs of songs that were overproduced in their original form, however, when Prince puts out a song like "Purple And Gold" and it was recorded and released just days after its creation, it's obvious Prince has a difficult time deciding ideas that are good and which ones are awful

first song that comes to my mind when it comes to over-production is "thunder" with the many layers of vocals...

but it's still 1 of my fav tunes

bashraka said:

Fact is boy has always suffered in the quality control department, that's a salient facet of what P is all about; re: the overwhelming quantity of outtakes and discarded songs over the years, some of which tend to be better than the "official" releases...

Now, with the internet, we get to hear the dregs instantaneously without begging for a copy or paying for it

Bliss

examples of overproduction: "Slave" from Emancipation, "Fury" album version from 3121, all of Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic. When listening or viewing a performance from Prince 8 times out of ten its good, because he allows for collaboration via solos on stage, spotantiety (song breakdowns, extending the groove, singing or allowing band members to solo over a vamp). These are things that can make an average song great if Prince chose to allow more collaboration or input from members in his band or outside people. Sting uses a co-producer on many of his albums (Ten Summoner's Tales his finest solo album in my opinion) and yet it doesn't make him in less a musician.

That's another beef I have with Prince. He thinks he HAS to play, sing and write everything and if the doesn't, it makes him LESS of a musician or songwriter. Which isn't the case, because when he collaborated with Wendy and Lisa those three used each other to create works that were more than the sum of its parts.

Handel said:

i think its coz nobody can tell him what to do and he gets over excited and doesnt know when to stop sometimes

NelsonR said:

YES..
He needs someone there to critique his work before its a finished product. Lisa and Wendy offered that.
Now granted, he has had some great stuff without them, but he still needs more input besides his own

I think there should be a balance of stripped-down raw songs & the more "hectic" songs. Take two of his biggest hits:

kiss - can't get any more minimal, just a few guitar chords & vocals
when doves cry - so much going on all the time! you hear something new with every listen

one of the most difficult things in song writing is to decide when you've done enough, there's a fine line between a song that gets boring quickly & a song that demands too much attention

Great thread man.. i've been confused & confronted with this dual for a while..
Prince has been one of those that's made me look past the over produced element. Can't say I can say that about other acts, for I don't have raw material of theirs to to base my judgement on whether or not they're talented or have a good producer behind them.

It's like guitar effects; any rookie can pick up Zakk Wylde's over processed guitar hooked up to a decked out pedal board and go at it sounding like a professional. But as soon as they pick up Angus Young's.. they can't play worth crap! The truth is revealed.

Prince though, he's proven to be what he is. I know what he's doing and I trust his direction. However I hold his stripped performances and tracks in higher regard

one nite alone piano.. fantastical

Less doesn't always work but sometimes less is more... example "Crystal Ball." I love how it's stipped down, funky and bangin'. I wouldn't say that P overproduces his music. But there are alternate version of some songs that I like better than the official release.
[Edited 2/26/10 16:17pm]

When Prince is highly motvated and has substantive ideas they usually lead to songs with great melodies, harmonies and some interesting production touches. For example "7", "Shy", "Gold", "Mellow" and just 3/4 of the Rainbow Children are tunes where the music was organic and great without any recording tricks like panning and backmasking. But lately, his first two songs of 2010 sound more like demos than professional sounding recordings.

Also, when he uses more complex arrangements involving more players it's usually hit-and miss. Another musical element he doesn't use more often is his knack for vocal riffing and utilizing the full range of his registers both low and high for ad-libbing. In concert he does it effortlessly but on record it's usually forced for some reason.

bashraka said:

x2

Actually, my 2 favourite albums, "Dirty Mind" and "Sign O' The Times" are filled with minimalistic yet very beautiful songs : take "The Cross" for example : guitars, Prince singing alone, drums and bass. "If I Was Your Girlfriend" was apparently made with the Linn Drum machine alone... Thats great!!

Oh, And I forgot "One Nite Alone" too... very good move

I'm hoping the Jazz album he's recording with John Blackwell, Rhonda Smith and Renato Neto will be musically organic and the music reflects the dynamic of those four musicians. 12-14 songs, some instrumentals with Prince singing and playing either the Ibanez George Benson guitar, or a cloud guitar for those mellow guitar tones. I know Prince is in "rock guitar" mode but whatever direction he's musically in, I hope he uses more quality control.

Have you ever considered that part of his "true expression of musical ideas" is his use of the studio?

Don't get me wrong, I love hearing stripped back recordings too - I'm just trying to add another perspective to the conversation. Ever since Sgt. Pepper, the studio has become just as much an instrument as as a guitar.

People are often put off by Prince's so-called "overproduction", but I think for him, that's all part and parcel of his product. He's a perfectionist and I think he loves playing the role of the mad scientist sitting in his studio tinkering away adding layer upon layer. Sometimes, like a rich chocolate cake, it does get a bit much...

But there are plenty of examples of him holding back: ONA Piano, The Truth, and a lot of Lotusflow3r has that live-in-the-studio sound.

Prince needs a quality control department. He was better when he had a record company telling him when the songs weren't quite good enough.

toejam said:

I hear what you are saying. But the recording studio and its many tricks and gadgetru can make even the best musicians a little complacent. There are songs on MPLSOUND for example that are classic Prince and those songs song good (drum machine, synths, sequencers) but tunes like "Here" and "Chocolate Box" gets very stale because the music sounds too mechanical.

Songs like "When Doves Cry" and "If I Was Your Girlfriend" (Not a fan of the SOTT version) were great because the embellishments were unflinchgly original and unique, but so mnay times most new Prince releases has the vibe that he's trying to get back on the hip-hop/urban charts and radio, trying to compete with Usher or whoever. I dig Lotus Flower and I even like Musicology more than I like 3121 cuz the music wasn't bogged down with bad mixes of instruments, tired musical cliches etc.

Here on earth -One night alone 02 Indigo Nights

toejam said:

HE IS NOT A PERFECTIONIST.

Sheesh. Listen to some of the songs on SOTT for evidence of that.

Being a perfectionist doesn't mean tinkering with recordings until they're dead.
[Edited 3/1/10 0:54am]

bashraka said:

oh no... I like "Slave"! Just the way it is.

BartVanHemelen said:

Hence the other part of my quote: "But there are plenty of examples of him holding back"
[Edited 2/28/10 22:50pm]

an example of where this works "over-thang" is the layered vocals in "still would stand all time," but I acknowledge he was looking 4 the choir effect there

crystal clear Prince voice is beautiful though, as in the lead vocs of "annastasia"

toejam said:

Look, either he is one or he isn't one. You can't claim he's one some of the time, i.e. when that fits your preconception.

The FACT is that he isn't one. Just listen to how rubbish some of his recent out put sounds. Also, his recent releases are way too loud due to hot mastering, yet another sign he isn't a perfectionist.

And a perfectionist would never allow such craptastic websites to be his official online presence.

NelsonR said:

It's "Anna Stesia" not to offend....

BartVanHemelen said:

Well, I guess we're talking about different things. I'm more talking about the musical elements of production - composition, arrangment, overdubs, layering, the performance etc. in which I think most of the time he is a perfectionist - sometimes to the recording's detriment.

You're talking more about mastering and his online presence. I really don't know that much about mastering, but I do know that (like composition) it's a highly subjective artform. And I'm not sure what his online presence has anything to do with the thread topic.

Being a perfectionist in one aspect of your life doesn't mean you're a perfectionist in all aspects of your life. Quite the contrary. Most geniuses or highly motivated people often lack in other aspects of their life away from their expert field.