Taste is... well, a matter of taste. What I like others don't. There are certain Prince songs I don't like but others like them and I wouldn't question that. But even if taste is largely subjective, is it really 100% subjective?

I bring this up because there seems to be a general consensus that Prince's most impressive recordings were in the past, even though he's made several impressive songs throughout his career. But couldn't there to a certain extent be such a thing as an objective opinion about a career? I mean, is Animal Kingdom on an equal footing with When Doves Cry for instance? Is New Power Soul equal to Sign O The Times? If we ask 1000 people there might be a few who differs from the majority opinion, but not many.

This is difficult, but isn't it possible that Prince really did make more great songs in the beginning and middle of his career than in the latter part? As is the case with many artists. I might be criticized for this, but it could also be said that Prince set the standard really high.

Conclusion: even though musical taste is largely subjective, could it be that it's not 100% subjective?

I think Colonize Mind has a similar message. Today's culture has a colonized mind. They're told what to think, what's good, what not good. If people hear soulja boy & katy perry enough they start thinking it must be good.

peter430044 said:

That's not a possibility...it's fact...pure and simple. It's been 25 years since When Doves Cry and it's still a song that resonates with a great deal of people, young and old alike, other than hardcore Prince junkies. In 15-25 years will that same thing be able to be said about anything he's put out in the last 10 years? No!

I would have 2 answer that question by looking at pop culture as a whole

I think a large percentage of music released from the late 90's to now is recycled stuff, copycat music, clone music

As much as I like cable tv, the internet, I think it's affected how artist/entertainers/singers/musicians create

I remember an interview from 85 where Prince said he really didn't listen much to what was on the radio, and I thought about how that can actually be a good thing because it doesn't direct your flow of creativity. It's one thing to listen to albums of music from 1960 1970's but to have quick access to everything that's being played on the radio can cause an artist to try to emulate what they are hearing (even Prince)

Yes he's made some good songs since 1988 but it's my opinion that the large majority of his really good songs are from pre 1990

The life U live affects creative output, how has stardom affected you, who do you have in your circle, are you being challenged, are you too removed from 'regular life' that your music becomes stale or unrelatable

from Erotic City Purple Rain(most of the music on that album) Condition of the Heart, Hello, Sexuality, Head, Uptown, Adore, Sometimes It Snows In April, Girls & Boys, Screams of Passion, 777-9311, The Walk, Glamorous Life, A Love Bizarre, If I Was Your Girlfriend, Strange Relationships, Ballad of Dorothy Parker, La La La He He Hee, Mia Bocca and on and on, the music is just so original and it says PRINCE MUSIC, Purple Music it's just so set apart and to me most of it is from the 1978-1988 years, he's had some good ones sporatically since then but not with the level of layered genius
[Edited 5/11/09 10:16am]

peter430044 said:

Good Point! I believe that musical taste is not 100% subjective.As an individual, I would like to think it is.... but we are shaped by our culture, to some degree, and therefore we are influenced by it through shared meaning!

It's subjective to the listener's taste. But as an artist grows, and builds a larger and larger back catalog, the basis for our judgment becomes a greater and wider parameter of variables.

To say "Oh, the Prince album was so much better than For You" might be easy, but when you're four more albums down the line, and something great like Purple Rain hit the shelves, and you play "Take Me With U" against "I Feel For You", then the idealism on a good song changes a bit. It's not that "I Feel For You" isn't a great song, but "Take Me With U" reflects that moment, that time, that feel, that idea from Prince. But then you get four more albums down the road and you have Lovesexy. Then the comparisons are larger. Is "When 2 R In Love" a better song than "The Beautiful Ones" ? Are they equal?

The bigger question is have you grown tired of certain songs, and embraced others long term. The opinion(s) of any song is truly subjective....based on more than one variable.

ernestsewell said:

You explain it very well. What was first defined as great might down the line still be defined as great but not as great as the new song/album I just listened to. I'm one of those people who take a strong stand that art and music is subjective.

Still I wonder. Sometimes it feels like it's largely subjective but not 100%. Objective musical quality would mean a kind of musical quality that makes a stronger impact on our musical core, more or less activated in people, but we can't define the musical core because we only have pieces of the puzzle. At first it seems impossible to decide. I mean, is When Doves Cry better than Kiss? But we would probably call it insane if someone suggested that the sound of a flushing toilet is better than When Doves Cry. This could simply mean that the flushing sound is worse, but that the quality of different songs is still subjective, or it could mean that also the quality of certain songs are objective.

1) Large, widespread, mainstream acceptance of a song like When Doves Cry happened to coincide with the same degree of acceptance of the movie for which it served as a lead-off hit single. So many factors converged for Prince at that time, it's really unfair to compare that era to the present. Prince has no hit movie in the works, as far as I know, to tie with Lotusflow3r. The closest he had was the $77 web site.

2) Somewhere in the argument that a colonized mind is the basis for what people like has to be the tacit acknowledgment that such a mind could make folks Prince fans, too, not just fans of Britney Spears and Lil Wayne. At the end of the day, P's a music artist like they are. Respective talent levels could be argued but know that his talent level was being scrutinized during 1984. And, his sexual image was seen as a big negative, just as gangsta rappers' lyrics are today.

That, I think, points to the real cycle: That older generations will pan a young talent, regardless of his or her influences and abilities. Same as it ever was.

And, while I love many of the songs P's put out in recent years, he stopped blowing my mind with ALBUMS at Lovesexy.

ThreadBare said:

Consider that WDC was released two weeks before the movie, and had it been a flop, would the public have been as interested in the PR movie? We can never know. When a movie is SO tied to the soundtrack and vice versa (opposed to a bunch of random songs thrown in a movie for shits and giggles), they depend on each other for success.

Side note of trivia: It was released only two days after Prince's 26th birthday, and birthday concert at First Avenue. Also, two days prior, "All Day, All Night" was recorded live at the Warehouse.
[Edited 5/10/09 10:55am]

NONSENSE said:

Exactly.

Me and my lady have these kinda chats all the time.

NONSENSE said:

So true. the media's got people thinking their way and they don't even know it!

Dayclear said:

Yet some ppl were talkin down Prince when he released "colonized mind".

I do believe it is subjective, remembering that every song is "Isolated."
Even our conversations with another person...are isolated.

I do not believe there is any one person in the world that could honestly say they do not love at least one Prince song.

The question is this: If taste in music is not 100% subjective, how could you ever prove it?

A popularity poll is of no help. It could show successful marketing, maybe.

How could you prove 100% that people weren't lying, trying to fit in, not caring, or apt to change their mind in the next minute?

Don't get me wrong, I believe that their is such thing as popular opinion. It is popular opinion that When Doves Cry is far better than Animal Kingdom.

However, popular opinion and taste is not fact. It is still subjective.

Subjective to life experience, age, climate, mood, diet, etc.

Bottom Line: All we have are our own truths. If I say that Lotusflow3r is just as good as Parade, you are gonna have to take my word for it. It's my opinion to have...that's the beauty about art. You can disagree and call me an uneducated, no taste having, idiot on prince.org, but you cannot prove I am wrong.
[Edited 5/11/09 7:50am]

skywalker said:

Yes, it can't be proven. It's a belief. It's not very importnant if taste is slightly objectiv or not since we all have our tastes and enjoyment either way. I just have a feeling that at some point when something starts to sound really bad that it's not 100% subjective anymore. For instance, is the sound of a chainsaw as good as Alphabet St.?

NONSENSE said:

exactly most people dont know what they like ,they like what they hear.

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

it's all about xposure tho WDC was all over the place back then. if given the chance 4 his later material, its possible some tracks could strike that chord as well ..but like this author of this thread said..it's all about a matter of taste
[Edited 5/11/09 9:31am]

WetDream said:

Well, I agree to a certain extent. The media definitely wants us to have a colonized mind, however I do not think the media controls the thoughts or likes and dislikes of all people. I personally like some of ole soulja boy's beats....however, I despise country music, and no matter how much the media "shines a light" on it, no matter how much my actual family listens to it and "cannot understand why I do not like it" it simply does NOT appeal to me, period! I personally do not pay a lot of attention to the media because I think a lot of it is BS.
I think people still have their own thoughts overall, however, with the media hyping things up, yes people may end up being swayed a bit.

As for the original question..."Could it be that music is NOT 100% subjective?"
Well, yes! I think there are definitely people out there that are just not "as good" of a musical artist as others...But some people will still like what that artist brings to the table, and others will hate it! However, I still feel the largest amount is still subjective to the person, the time, the place, the age...
Hey, I adore Prince's Pre-1990 music. Yes, it was, to me...some of the best! However, as I have grown, my tastes have shifted a bit. The more "Grown up" Prince appeals to me, just as well/much as the old Prince did, if that makes sense. And for me there was no transition because as I was "growing up" so was he. He does sound different than he used to...But, I think that is a good thing! It would be mundane if he did the same stuff over and over, not to mention he covers so many genres it is unreal!
I would dare to say that music is still more subjective than anything...
Good question!

Depends on if you are a lumberjack or a tree...

skywalker said:

this whole topic is complex. I believe that we too often, and unfairly, compare prince's new music to the albums that allowed him to have the $$$ to go in so many different directions. If he doesn't put out a single, then he's damned. If he doesn't promote his cds (i.e., appearing on late-night tv shows), he's damned. Why can't we get that he does what he wants to do and we can either enjoy it or have a bonfire? I have an ongoing conversation with a friend (the same friend who turned me on to prince in 1980 and now despises his music), and he prefers alternative/college rock music. The reason he gives for liking that kind of music is it isn't Top 40 music. I rebut, saying that he is right, but that that kind of music is judged by a population of people (college students), and that they, too, want to be on top of their respective charts because such an achievement brings more people out to their concerts. Prince doesn't have to beg us to come out for him. He's earned my support, and he'll never lose it.