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PrintableDesireeNevermind said: meow85 said: I'm not particularly reliigous but I was raised going to church. I have seen countless reenactments of Christ's life and of His final days, and most of them I'd consider better than The Passion. Gibson's movie was 2 hours of pointless unnecessary gore. I could go to one of the Saw movies for that, thanks. Gibson reminded people how much Christ actually suffered at the hands of humanity when it was all FOR humanity. People tend to forget how abused he was. They get all caught up in the Jesus Christ Supertar version of him and the nice fluffy children sunday school stories. Its funny how when people see instances of violence, either on the news or in some biographical nature, they can't handle it but then they go see movies like SAW and Friday the 27th and its all good fun and laughs. As a whole, the human race is mentally ill.  I don't go see movies like Saw because I do think unnecessary gore and violence is such a waste of time. And I'm sorry you think there's something beautiful about 2 hours of brutal bloodshed, but the whole point in the death and resurrection is how Jesus lived and WHY he died, not how he did. A movie glamourizing the brutality of the man's death while ignoring the reason he died is a sick and twisted waste of time -moreso than any secular horror schlock will ever be. "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
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Se7en said: DesireeNevermind said: Gibson reminded people how much Christ actually suffered at the hands of humanity when it was all FOR humanity. People tend to forget how abused he was. They get all caught up in the Jesus Christ Supertar version of him and the nice fluffy children sunday school stories. Its funny how when people see instances of violence, either on the news or in some biographical nature, they can't handle it but then they go see movies like SAW and Friday the 27th and its all good fun and laughs. As a whole, the human race is mentally ill. Mel said that as violent as that movie was, in real life it was probably more violent. He went only as far as needed to get the point across that Jesus endured all of that for us. Previous movies about His life are sugarcoated at the end, for sure. I smell bullshit. During production of The Passion, it was well publicized that Gibson's Special FX team used fake blood in vast excesses of what is actually found in totality in the human body, nevermind the relatively small amount of that amount that could realistically escape from a person before death. Unless you're going to argue that Christ had super-replenishing blood, of which there is no Biblical or anecdotal support for such a stupid claim, it's safe to say that the violence in the movie was indeed played up and not down. I find it frightening that some people need images of violence to affirm their faith. How Jesus died is not what's important, that he died is. Most movies "sugarcoat", as you put it, the ending because the violence is not important. If anything, it's just distracting and feeding a bloodthirsty audience. "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
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meow85 said: Se7en said: Mel said that as violent as that movie was, in real life it was probably more violent. He went only as far as needed to get the point across that Jesus endured all of that for us. Previous movies about His life are sugarcoated at the end, for sure. I smell bullshit. During production of The Passion, it was well publicized that Gibson's Special FX team used fake blood in vast excesses of what is actually found in totality in the human body, nevermind the relatively small amount of that amount that could realistically escape from a person before death. Unless you're going to argue that Christ had super-replenishing blood, of which there is no Biblical or anecdotal support for such a stupid claim, it's safe to say that the violence in the movie was indeed played up and not down. I find it frightening that some people need images of violence to affirm their faith. How Jesus died is not what's important, that he died is. Most movies "sugarcoat", as you put it, the ending because the violence is not important. If anything, it's just distracting and feeding a bloodthirsty audience. I agree that the message of His life and Resurrection is more important than the scourging. "Jesus Of Nazareth" is my favorite movie portrayal of Jesus' life. It's something like 6 hours long, but worth every minute. |
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meow85 said: DesireeNevermind said: Gibson reminded people how much Christ actually suffered at the hands of humanity when it was all FOR humanity. People tend to forget how abused he was. They get all caught up in the Jesus Christ Supertar version of him and the nice fluffy children sunday school stories. Its funny how when people see instances of violence, either on the news or in some biographical nature, they can't handle it but then they go see movies like SAW and Friday the 27th and its all good fun and laughs. As a whole, the human race is mentally ill. I don't go see movies like Saw because I do think unnecessary gore and violence is such a waste of time. And I'm sorry you think there's something beautiful about 2 hours of brutal bloodshed, but the whole point in the death and resurrection is how Jesus lived and WHY he died, not how he did. A movie glamourizing the brutality of the man's death while ignoring the reason he died is a sick and twisted waste of time -moreso than any secular horror schlock will ever be.  | |
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Darwintheorgangrinder said: 2freaky4church1 said: I'm still shocked P likes Maher, an atheist.
I am an atheist, and I like Prince. That aside, I doubt that Prince would go see Religilous, even if he likes Real Time. When I watch Real Time, Maher does not focus the entire show on religion, rather politics. If you are religious yet you find Maher entertaining or like his politics, you might be inclined to watch his show and suffer through the randomly placed criticisms of religion. However, an entire movie based on his religious criticism would not be as enjoyable of a view. Agreed. I'm a buddhist and although i like Bill Maher, the idea of seeing Religulous doesn't really appeal to me... not because I don't agree that there's a lot thats funny and/or troubling about some religious beliefs or anything, but because I don't personally believe in ridiculing religious people or anyone blinded by forms of dogma (including forms of atheistic dogma) or faith. People who stick to forms of dogma and fundamentalism aren't any less worthy of respect than those who don't. In fact they need our compassion all the more. Change it one more time.. | |
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lezama said: Darwintheorgangrinder said: I am an atheist, and I like Prince. That aside, I doubt that Prince would go see Religilous, even if he likes Real Time. When I watch Real Time, Maher does not focus the entire show on religion, rather politics. If you are religious yet you find Maher entertaining or like his politics, you might be inclined to watch his show and suffer through the randomly placed criticisms of religion. However, an entire movie based on his religious criticism would not be as enjoyable of a view. Agreed. I'm a buddhist and although i like Bill Maher, the idea of seeing Religulous doesn't really appeal to me... not because I don't agree that there's a lot thats funny and/or troubling about some religious beliefs or anything, but because I don't personally believe in ridiculing religious people or anyone blinded by forms of dogma (including forms of atheistic dogma) or faith. People who stick to forms of dogma and fundamentalism aren't any less worthy of respect than those who don't. In fact they need our compassion all the more. | |
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Vendetta1 said: lezama said: Agreed. I'm a buddhist and although i like Bill Maher, the idea of seeing Religulous doesn't really appeal to me... not because I don't agree that there's a lot thats funny and/or troubling about some religious beliefs or anything, but because I don't personally believe in ridiculing religious people or anyone blinded by forms of dogma (including forms of atheistic dogma) or faith. People who stick to forms of dogma and fundamentalism aren't any less worthy of respect than those who don't. In fact they need our compassion all the more. From the trailer. If the trailer doesn't accurately reflect the movie then thats unfortunate because the trailer's what turned me off to it. Its indirect.. but you know, for me, it'd be one thing to expose inconistencies or something presenting the subject as those who experience it view it, its another to present something as an outsider without fully giving credence to why certain people believe what they do. I just disagree with how he goes about the subject matter. Otherwise I like Maher and real time. Change it one more time.. | |
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Se7en said: meow85 said: I smell bullshit. During production of The Passion, it was well publicized that Gibson's Special FX team used fake blood in vast excesses of what is actually found in totality in the human body, nevermind the relatively small amount of that amount that could realistically escape from a person before death. Unless you're going to argue that Christ had super-replenishing blood, of which there is no Biblical or anecdotal support for such a stupid claim, it's safe to say that the violence in the movie was indeed played up and not down. I find it frightening that some people need images of violence to affirm their faith. How Jesus died is not what's important, that he died is. Most movies "sugarcoat", as you put it, the ending because the violence is not important. If anything, it's just distracting and feeding a bloodthirsty audience. I agree that the message of His life and Resurrection is more important than the scourging. "Jesus Of Nazareth" is my favorite movie portrayal of Jesus' life. It's something like 6 hours long, but worth every minute. I don't remember anything about it production-wise but that it was titled simply, "Jesus" but this one was my favourite interpretation. It started out with Mary and Joseph's journey toward Bethlehem, and progressed through all of Christ's life, His death, and ended just after Thomas put his hand in His side. Very good IMO, and though I'm disinclined to go to even a liberal church these days, I wouldn't mind tracking down a copy of it to watch again. "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
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lezama said: Vendetta1 said: Where do you get the idea that Bill is ridiculing anyone?
From the trailer. If the trailer doesn't accurately reflect the movie then thats unfortunate because the trailer's what turned me off to it. Its indirect.. but you know, for me, it'd be one thing to expose inconistencies or something presenting the subject as those who experience it view it, its another to present something as an outsider without fully giving credence to why certain people believe what they do. I just disagree with how he goes about the subject matter. Otherwise I like Maher and real time. Maher does take a tongue-in-cheek attitude for much of Religulous, but most of the time I wouldn't consider any questions he asks disrespectful or ridiculing the people he interviews. Some people he spoke to did take offense, and whether this is due to their own sensitivity or to Maher's approach, I'm not sure. Most likely it was a combination of the two. "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
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meow85 said: DesireeNevermind said: Gibson reminded people how much Christ actually suffered at the hands of humanity when it was all FOR humanity. People tend to forget how abused he was. They get all caught up in the Jesus Christ Supertar version of him and the nice fluffy children sunday school stories. Its funny how when people see instances of violence, either on the news or in some biographical nature, they can't handle it but then they go see movies like SAW and Friday the 27th and its all good fun and laughs. As a whole, the human race is mentally ill. I don't go see movies like Saw because I do think unnecessary gore and violence is such a waste of time. And I'm sorry you think there's something beautiful about 2 hours of brutal bloodshed, but the whole point in the death and resurrection is how Jesus lived and WHY he died, not how he did. A movie glamourizing the brutality of the man's death while ignoring the reason he died is a sick and twisted waste of time -moreso than any secular horror schlock will ever be. There's nothing beautiful or glamorous about the depiction of Christ's suffering and I didn't see that in Gibson's film- I doubt anyone did which is why it was such a successful undertaking. It just seemed to me like you were dismissing the suffering aspect and making it seem insignificant and then you threw in the SAW movie which in MHO is no comparison to the Passion film. I had a problem with you equating the two. But I will agree with you that the Passion film could have included more of Christ teachings but at the same time...when Gibson was promoting the film he made it very clear that it was about the days leading up to the persecution and crucifixion. No one should have been surprised by the graphic presentation. anyways no damage...carry on  | |
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DesireeNevermind said: meow85 said: I don't go see movies like Saw because I do think unnecessary gore and violence is such a waste of time. And I'm sorry you think there's something beautiful about 2 hours of brutal bloodshed, but the whole point in the death and resurrection is how Jesus lived and WHY he died, not how he did. A movie glamourizing the brutality of the man's death while ignoring the reason he died is a sick and twisted waste of time -moreso than any secular horror schlock will ever be. There's nothing beautiful or glamorous about the depiction of Christ's suffering and I didn't see that in Gibson's film- I doubt anyone did which is why it was such a successful undertaking. It just seemed to me like you were dismissing the suffering aspect and making it seem insignificant and then you threw in the SAW movie which in MHO is no comparison to the Passion film. I had a problem with you equating the two. But I will agree with you that the Passion film could have included more of Christ teachings but at the same time...when Gibson was promoting the film he made it very clear that it was about the days leading up to the persecution and crucifixion. No one should have been surprised by the graphic presentation. anyways no damage...carry on You're the one who called Gibson's violent piece of trash beautiful and meaningful. It was disturbing and yes, the violence was glamourized. It was played up and exaggerated. The entire movie focussed on nothing but the violence and ignored the reason Jesus died. That, to me, is sick and twisted and I can't comprehend why anyone who calls themself a Christian would condone that sort of blatant brutalization. I compare it to the Saw movies because to me they're the same thing: stupid, violent gore with no meaning. Everyone knows Christ died a violent, painful death so what's the point in showing it on the big screen for 2 hours, especially if the filmmaker is going to ignore the reason for the death? People who have their faith affirmed by gore are deeply troubled. Especially when that gore is masterminded by an anti-semitic racist. [Edited 1/23/09 13:51pm] "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
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meow85 said: DesireeNevermind said: There's nothing beautiful or glamorous about the depiction of Christ's suffering and I didn't see that in Gibson's film- I doubt anyone did which is why it was such a successful undertaking. It just seemed to me like you were dismissing the suffering aspect and making it seem insignificant and then you threw in the SAW movie which in MHO is no comparison to the Passion film. I had a problem with you equating the two. But I will agree with you that the Passion film could have included more of Christ teachings but at the same time...when Gibson was promoting the film he made it very clear that it was about the days leading up to the persecution and crucifixion. No one should have been surprised by the graphic presentation. anyways no damage...carry on You're the one who called Gibson's violent piece of trash beautiful and meaningful. It was disturbing and yes, the violence was glamourized. It was played up and exaggerated. The entire movie focussed on nothing but the violence and ignored the reason Jesus died. That, to me, is sick and twisted and I can't comprehend why anyone who calls themself a Christian would condone that sort of blatant brutalization. I compare it to the Saw movies because to me they're the same thing: stupid, violent gore with no meaning. Everyone knows Christ died a violent, painful death so what's the point in showing it on the big screen for 2 hours, especially if the filmmaker is going to ignore the reason for the death? People who have their faith affirmed by gore are deeply troubled. Especially when that gore is masterminded by an anti-semitic racist. [Edited 1/23/09 13:51pm]  Ok you betta re-read my post....NOWHERE do I call Gibson's film either violent, trashy, beautiful or meaningful..Seems you are hearing voices in your head. So you got a heavy bone to pick with Gibson or maybe with Jesus? Shit I can't realy tell at this point.
Now if EVERYONE knows about Christ violent death as you say, and therefore there is no reason to show 2 hours of it, then why show two hours of Christ teachings since everyone presumably knows about that too especially if the film maker is going to ignore the reasons for the teaching? As for the anti-semitic remark towards Gibson, then you betta not shop at Kohls, visit Disney Land, vote Republican, or hang out with non temple going Jews cuz that name calling gets tossed around way too frequently and you might be supporting anti-semitism. I'm not saying Gibson is or isn't, I'm just saying it has nothing to do with how Christs died and his presentation of it on film, which to my knowledge, had never been truly explored. In the film, the Italians are the ones beating the crap out of Christ and I never understood the whole Pontius Pilot washing his hands clean of the matter but that's another discussion. Most films are like Christ was born in a pretty manger (yeah right), grew up to teach everybody to be nice (um ok), and then died quietly and ascended to heaven (whatever). There's more to the story and I appreaciate it when a director likes to remind people of that. But again, if you didn't see the film then don't knock it. If you saw it and it was too much for you to bear then I get it. But I don't get what and where Christians are condoning blatant brutalization of Jesus. You lost me on that one.  | |
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DesireeNevermind said: Ok you betta re-read my post....NOWHERE do I call Gibson's film either violent, trashy, beautiful or meaningful..Seems you are hearing voices in your head. So you got a heavy bone to pick with Gibson or maybe with Jesus? Shit I can't realy tell at this point.I have a problem with Gibson's racist ass, and I have a big problem this violent, degrading movie. Did I say somewhere I have a problem with Jesus? Looks like you're the one imagining things. Now if EVERYONE knows about Christ violent death as you say, and therefore there is no reason to show 2 hours of it, then why show two hours of Christ teachings since everyone presumably knows about that too especially if the film maker is going to ignore the reasons for the teaching? As for the anti-semitic remark towards Gibson, then you betta not shop at Kohls, visit Disney Land, vote Republican, or hang out with non temple going Jews cuz that name calling gets tossed around way too frequently and you might be supporting anti-semitism.
It's pretty presumptious of you to assume I ignorantly support companies or individuals who are known to be racist or anti-semitic. I don't, and you should have been able to infer that by my disagreeing with Gibson's racism. "That name calling" does not get tossed around too frequently. All too often it's ignored. I'm not saying Gibson is or isn't, I'm just saying it has nothing to do with how Christs died and his presentation of it on film, which to my knowledge, had never been truly explored. Gibson drunkenly ranted against the evils of Jews, and several of his family members are known racists and Holocaust deniers. People like that wouldn't know Christ from their own asshole, and have no place making a movie about Him. Jesus' life and death has been portrayed in more movies and books than I can count. What do you think hasn't "truly been explored" that is satisfied by buckets of blood? In the film, the Italians are the ones beating the crap out of Christ Romans, not Italians. Italy did not exist during Christ's time, so it is impossible for Italians to have had anything to do with the matter.
and I never understood the whole Pontius Pilot washing his hands clean of the matter but that's another discussion.
Pilate did not want to be held responsible for Jesus' death, a man he believed committed no crime. The reason he ordered his execution was to appease the crowd's demands. Got that? Most films are like Christ was born in a pretty manger (yeah right), grew up to teach everybody to be nice (um ok), and then died quietly and ascended to heaven (whatever).
I have no idea what movies you're referring to, because I have never seen one, and I have seen several, that sugarcoats His death the way you describe. What are you talking about?  There's more to the story and I appreaciate it when a director likes to remind people of that. But again, if you didn't see the film then don't knock it. If you saw it and it was too much for you to bear then I get it. But I don't get what and where Christians are condoning blatant brutalization of Jesus. You lost me on that one. I saw it and I thought it was terrible. It was pretty well nothing but blood and gore, and IMO it was an incredibly disrespectful depiction. As for Christians condoning the gore? Look no further than the thousands who seem to think there's something worthwhile in watching their Saviour suffer torture for 2 hours. What kind of a person needs this violence to affirm their faith? It's sick. "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
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I agree 100% Meow. | |
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Prince is too arrogant for doubt. So, I'm sure the movie would have little affect.
Faith kills... | |
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DesireeNevermind said: Gibson reminded people how much Christ actually suffered at the hands of humanity when it was all FOR humanity. People tend to forget how abused he was. They get all caught up in the Jesus Christ Supertar version of him and the nice fluffy children sunday school stories. Its funny how when people see instances of violence, either on the news or in some biographical nature, they can't handle it but then they go see movies like SAW and Friday the 27th and its all good fun and laughs. As a whole, the human race is mentally ill. Agreed..."The Passion" is an excellent movie which deepened my faith in Jesus, because it was, for me, a "wake-up call" that really underscored the meaning of His sacrifice and the depth of His love for mankind. Yes, it is disturbing, but it needs to be in order to really hit home with a modern audience who has been desensitized to violence. I distrust organized religion, but I do consider myself spiritual (I belive in God and Jesus). IMO, calling someone "sick" because he/she got something positive out of a certain type of movie is WRONG. But I digress... I love Maher and I love Prince...book him on "Real Time" (preferably in a panel that includes Dr. Cornel West, whom I also love)!!!  [Edited 1/24/09 15:24pm] https://www.youtube.com/@PurpleKnightsPodcast | |
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I'm not sure Bill would have the patience to handle Prince's cryptic bs answers without laughing in the man's face. | |
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johnart said: I'm not sure Bill would have the patience to handle Prince's cryptic bs answers without laughing in the man's face.
 So true!https://www.youtube.com/@PurpleKnightsPodcast | |
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bluefish said: johnart said: I'm not sure Bill would have the patience to handle Prince's cryptic bs answers without laughing in the man's face.
So true!I just see it going horribly wrong, however much mutual admiration might be there. | |
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bluefish said: DesireeNevermind said: Gibson reminded people how much Christ actually suffered at the hands of humanity when it was all FOR humanity. People tend to forget how abused he was. They get all caught up in the Jesus Christ Supertar version of him and the nice fluffy children sunday school stories. Its funny how when people see instances of violence, either on the news or in some biographical nature, they can't handle it but then they go see movies like SAW and Friday the 27th and its all good fun and laughs. As a whole, the human race is mentally ill. Agreed..."The Passion" is an excellent movie which deepened my faith in Jesus, because it was, for me, a "wake-up call" that really underscored the meaning of His sacrifice and the depth of His love for mankind. Yes, it is disturbing, but it needs to be in order to really hit home with a modern audience who has been desensitized to violence. I distrust organized religion, but I do consider myself spiritual (I belive in God and Jesus). IMO, calling someone "sick" because he/she got something positive out of a certain type of movie is WRONG. But I digress... I love Maher and I love Prince...book him on "Real Time" (preferably in a panel that includes Dr. Cornel West, whom I also love)!!!
[Edited 1/24/09 15:24pm] What was it about the movie that helped deepen your faith? Isn't the reason the Man died profound enough, without witnessing a highly fictionalized, glamourized Hollywood version of brutality? What is it about this 2 hours of violence that was so positive. IMO it was negative and incredibly disrespectful. "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
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Will.I.Am was on Real Time recently and was really out of place. John Legend was a much better Real Time guest.
I do think Prince would hold his own, because Bill likes to focus mainly on politics and pop culture references. |
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bluefish said: DesireeNevermind said: Gibson reminded people how much Christ actually suffered at the hands of humanity when it was all FOR humanity. People tend to forget how abused he was. They get all caught up in the Jesus Christ Supertar version of him and the nice fluffy children sunday school stories. Its funny how when people see instances of violence, either on the news or in some biographical nature, they can't handle it but then they go see movies like SAW and Friday the 27th and its all good fun and laughs. As a whole, the human race is mentally ill. Agreed..."The Passion" is an excellent movie which deepened my faith in Jesus, because it was, for me, a "wake-up call" that really underscored the meaning of His sacrifice and the depth of His love for mankind. Yes, it is disturbing, but it needs to be in order to really hit home with a modern audience who has been desensitized to violence. I distrust organized religion, but I do consider myself spiritual (I belive in God and Jesus). IMO, calling someone "sick" because he/she got something positive out of a certain type of movie is WRONG. But I digress... I love Maher and I love Prince...book him on "Real Time" (preferably in a panel that includes Dr. Cornel West, whom I also love)!!!
[Edited 1/24/09 15:24pm]  Couldn't have said it better myself!!! | |
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meow85 said: bluefish said: Agreed..."The Passion" is an excellent movie which deepened my faith in Jesus, because it was, for me, a "wake-up call" that really underscored the meaning of His sacrifice and the depth of His love for mankind. Yes, it is disturbing, but it needs to be in order to really hit home with a modern audience who has been desensitized to violence. I distrust organized religion, but I do consider myself spiritual (I belive in God and Jesus). IMO, calling someone "sick" because he/she got something positive out of a certain type of movie is WRONG. But I digress... I love Maher and I love Prince...book him on "Real Time" (preferably in a panel that includes Dr. Cornel West, whom I also love)!!!
[Edited 1/24/09 15:24pm] What was it about the movie that helped deepen your faith? Isn't the reason the Man died profound enough, without witnessing a highly fictionalized, glamourized Hollywood version of brutality? What is it about this 2 hours of violence that was so positive. IMO it was negative and incredibly disrespectful. Jeez Meow!! Ok we get that you hate Gibson but seriously...you can't handle a depiction of the violent death of Jesus or any historical figure who meant a great deal to millions of people? Let me digress for a tad bit...Ghandi was shot and this was reinacted on film. Should it not have been shown? Is it wrong to include in the film how many times he got his ass whooped by his oppressors? What good is the truth if you can't handle it? You don't really think Jesus died a sweet, quiet happy death do you? And b4 you start correcting my spelling! A whole story has more impact than a piece of a story. The fact that Jesus suffered so much for a humanity that I certainly wouldn't suffer that much for could deepen anyone's faith not only in Jesus but in us all. His death compiled with his teachings is what deepends many people's faith and not just his teachings alone. The idea that Jesus thought we/humanity was worth suffering and dying for is a faith and awe inspiring act. How many people would lay down their lives, endure torture for those that love them as well as those that scorn and hate them? And sorry your post to me was way too damned long and no doubt wrought with attitude. I don't have the patience to read that book. I aint Jesus!!!  | |
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I believe if Prince goes on Larry King Live show, he would get more scrutinized than Bill Maher and King appears to be agnostic, too. | |
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