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PrintableButterscotchPimp said: robinesque said: i don't think anyone has forgotten.. the thing is with Rick james being so huge (so much bigger than prince in 1980-82, right?), how can you know who had the larger influence. i suspect that they both had an impact on the funk scene... even if they had been underground, they still could have had an influence.. i'm sure that the music scene has changed alot, but surely musicians back then still had a knowledge of the underground music scene.. do you hear a prince influence in the early 1980's funk acts people have mentioned? And again, Murph's point was Prince "introduced synths/drum machines" to the funk. MY point was it was happening already as a result of the popularity of "new wave". Thus i don't think Rick or Prince had that influence. It was already happening. His popularity is linked to his influence. By 1983, P had already built a solid underground musical base (mostly black) that was influential in sound and imagery. The fact that he had already made those music journalism touchstones points to his influence pre-1983. Musician magazine was not a popularity contest. He was a known commodity and someone other musicians were watching and stealing from. If you remember reading from those interviews and other music journalism of the era, Prince's new music was much disected, discussed and opined- by other musicians. You can't tell me Larry Blackmon, Roger Troutman and George Clinton did not steal ideas from Prince. Of course, he was influenced by JB, George, Sly, New Wave and the rest due to his polymorphus musical vocabulary and eclectic nature but to say that P did not throw his own ingredients in the contemporary funk stew is ridiculous. You keep bring up the use of synths. No one said P was the first to use them. But anyone with a musical ear can hear the minny sound (sparse minimalism, jaunty synth notes, clustered chords, synth horns, linn drums) that has been so imitated. And this sound predated 1982 (1999). | |
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ButterscotchPimp said: robinesque said: i don't think anyone has forgotten.. the thing is with Rick james being so huge (so much bigger than prince in 1980-82, right?), how can you know who had the larger influence. i suspect that they both had an impact on the funk scene... even if they had been underground, they still could have had an influence.. i'm sure that the music scene has changed alot, but surely musicians back then still had a knowledge of the underground music scene.. do you hear a prince influence in the early 1980's funk acts people have mentioned? And again, Murph's point was Prince "introduced synths/drum machines" to the funk. MY point was it was happening already as a result of the popularity of "new wave". Thus i don't think Rick or Prince had that influence. It was already happening. No.... I think murph conceded that synths/drum machines were already being used... he was saying that is was the way they were used that shook things up... stripping everything down, untill the guitar was the only traditional instrument used (that's how I read it anyway) sure the technology was out there... but the way Prince used it was influential | |
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murph said:[quote] ButterscotchPimp said: ButterscotchPimp said: And again, Murph's point was Prince "introduced synths/drum machines" to the funk.
Wow...did i say Prince introduced synths and drum machines to funk?.... That's something I never said.... (for the 100th time...lol) What I said was his mix of the two (having the tracks being virtually all syths and drum machines--i.e. stripped down, as well as synths playing the role of horns, a staple of the funk) was something entirely new...As well as new wave being injected into R&B (not Talking Heads or other white new wave acts...)...That mix basically became what became known as the Minneopolis Sound in 1982 (of course, everyone on here knows that...) I think I can speak for myself homie... [Edited 8/30/08 11:10am] I was watching the 1983 First Avenue Benefit concert and the final song is DMSR. he does this whole shtick with someone calling him wanting some horns... "you want what? you want some horns.... gimmee somehorns" and the sythns go nuts... I thought it was weird and silly actually... (But, Prince, you don't have horns  )
makes more sense now... pretty funny and clever really | |
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robinesque said: ButterscotchPimp said: And again, Murph's point was Prince "introduced synths/drum machines" to the funk. MY point was it was happening already as a result of the popularity of "new wave". Thus i don't think Rick or Prince had that influence. It was already happening. No.... I think murph conceded that synths/drum machines were already being used... he was saying that is was the way they were used that shook things up... stripping everything down, untill the guitar was the only traditional instrument used (that's how I read it anyway) sure the technology was out there... but the way Prince used it was influential Indeed...I've been saying this since the first page...lol... I'm glad someone is getting it... [Edited 8/30/08 13:59pm] | |
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This has been an, at times, interesting discussion but it gets incredibly frustrating because of BP's back-peddling and side-stepping (to mix sport metaphors):
The most important point made, and ignored repeatedly by BP, is the contradiction implied by his acceptance of the transition from JB to GC in his definition of "pure funk" but his rejection of Prince and the so-called "Minny sound." If he had been listening to music in the 60s and 70s and been a funk purist, he would have been saying that what GC and P-Funk were doing is not funk whatever they call themselves because it doesn't conform to the unchangeable characteristics instituted by JB. I went back and listened to some Troutman and Barkays thanx to this thread (and I mean thank you), and I can understand why you might see them as "hard-core funk" and most Prince as more pop-oriented funk (BP still hasn't responded to some of the counter-examples like the 12-inch of I Wish U Heaven). BUT, to my ears they are clearly not innovative to the funk to the same degree that JB (originator), GC, Sly and P were. Here's a different question, though: should the value of P's funk influence be downgraded because of those influenced BY him (someone quoted a bunch in a post above)? Most of them are light-weight crap that, in my opinion alone, have had a negative influence on pop, funk and black music in general. The exceptions (from the list above at least) are Outkast and the Roots and that may just be enough to make it worth crediting P's longlasting influence: it seems that a new generation of artists making innovative and different styles of funk credit P as a major influence. (I'd put jdavey in there too - but I think they're too many removes from funk for it to be a major classifier). "We've never been able to pull off a funk number"
"That's becuase we're soulless auttomatons" | |
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wasitgood4u said: This has been an, at times, interesting discussion but it gets incredibly frustrating because of BP's back-peddling and side-stepping (to mix sport metaphors):
The most important point made, and ignored repeatedly by BP, is the contradiction implied by his acceptance of the transition from JB to GC in his definition of "pure funk" but his rejection of Prince and the so-called "Minny sound." If he had been listening to music in the 60s and 70s and been a funk purist, he would have been saying that what GC and P-Funk were doing is not funk whatever they call themselves because it doesn't conform to the unchangeable characteristics instituted by JB. I went back and listened to some Troutman and Barkays thanx to this thread (and I mean thank you), and I can understand why you might see them as "hard-core funk" and most Prince as more pop-oriented funk (BP still hasn't responded to some of the counter-examples like the 12-inch of I Wish U Heaven). BUT, to my ears they are clearly not innovative to the funk to the same degree that JB (originator), GC, Sly and P were. Here's a different question, though: should the value of P's funk influence be downgraded because of those influenced BY him (someone quoted a bunch in a post above)? Most of them are light-weight crap that, in my opinion alone, have had a negative influence on pop, funk and black music in general. The exceptions (from the list above at least) are Outkast and the Roots and that may just be enough to make it worth crediting P's longlasting influence: it seems that a new generation of artists making innovative and different styles of funk credit P as a major influence. (I'd put jdavey in there too - but I think they're too many removes from funk for it to be a major classifier). of course I know BP will reject the Roots (and Outkast?) as funk acts (maybe Outkast will pass because Andre is visually influenced by Bootsy??) "We've never been able to pull off a funk number"
"That's becuase we're soulless auttomatons" | |
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Oh, and 1 more thing, the most absurd thing in this thread is the strange attempt to rest on a distinction between "funk" and "funky" (a clear example of the sidestepping and backtracking - and I got the metaphors to mix this time):
In the OP, BP himself said: Prince isn't that "funky". Not in the purest definition of the genre. Sure he likes to throw the word around, but in the PUREST sense of the genre he's not even taken that seriously.
But later claimed he'd never said that P isn't funky but just that he doesn't play funk. Yep. And you don't smell bad, you're just smelly... "We've never been able to pull off a funk number"
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PoorGoo813 said:
Have U not noticed the orchastration of earlier funk songs? Have your heard the Horns? Murph is correct in what he said about the influence Prince created. He didn't Create Funk.....God knows it, but he did change the way funk was played. Where did the horns go? Oh! They became synths! Where did the orchastra go? Oh! They became synths! It may be time 2 take BSP's dick out U'r mouth so U can READ every word in someone's post so that U can understand a little better. Didn't they teach U that in school? The biggest clue that None 'o y'all know shit about funk is the absence of Funkenstein's defense....except for his September issue. Open U'r hearts, Open U'r Minds! A train is leaving all Day! Okay, that's a little insulting. So, first off [Flame snip - luv4u] I don't feel the need to explain everything to a condescending [Name calling snip - luv4u] but I will answer one question - "Where did the horns and orchestration go?" Its called a key members clause. Many of them started popping up in record label contracts in the early 80s. Ask Cameo about it. Because of a lot of the conflicts and lawsuits, labels started making these clauses in their contracts that stated that only a few members of a band were actually signed to the label (key members) and the rest were independent contractors, that way the trumpet player can't sue over compositional rights of that funky "September" song. 
This pretty much dissolved a LOT of extra members in bands. The progression of technology (synths) was occuring at the same time. Prince didn't invent synths. If a synth can sound like a horn or strings, how the hell can anyone credit that to Prince? There were lots of people using synths at the time. Prince got POPULAR, which drew more attention for it to become a popular thing to do. He wasn't the ONLY one doing it just like Madonna wasn't the only one vogueing in the 90s. She took something and made it POPULAR. Hell, Kraftwerk was using synths for strings/orchestrations in the late 70s. Rick James was using the shit out of synths in the very early 80s and he, unlike Prince at the time, was at the top of the R&B charts. The better technology got, the better the sounds got. It became a practical evolution from a business standpoint to reduce the size of bands as technology grew. It still goes on today. So, while Murph and you cheerleaders try to re-write history on a message board, the facts still stand. Influence and synths have nothing to do with Prince not being one of the major forces of FUNK. He isn't/wasn't. He IS funky, though. Without a doubt. He's just not at the top of the funk food chain. This thread has been shifted from point to point to point. People have tried to strawman it into "Prince isn't funky at all" to "Prince didn't influence music" to "Prince's use of synths and other side topics. A lot of people on here try to imply that Prince "mastered" funk and moved on. He didn't. He moved on, yes. Mastered funk? No. He borrowed elements. In the context of funk songs, his resume is light. [Edited 8/31/08 12:06pm] | |
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^^^^
it sucks that you have to repeat yourself and BP and re-state you position a hundred times. I'm guessing alot of people aren't reading alot of the posts.. which is understandable, I guess. This is why I've been fence sitting this whole time... (because murph has made some good points about the minneapolis sound..apologies for spelling errors) What you said about the contracts/technology playing a part in the reduction of band size is really interesting, and I can see how it would have a massive impact on the sound... like the industrial revolution. I would be interested though, about whether you feel that Prince and The Time had an identifiable sound when it came to how they used the new technology... what makes Prince sound like Prince (is it more about how he mixed genres?) oh... and to blame Prince for Brit Spears and JT and timberland etc... bit harsh don't you think  | |
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BlaqueKnight said: So, while Murph and you cheerleaders try to re-write history on a message board, the facts still stand.Influence and synths have nothing to do with Prince not being one of the major forces of FUNK. He isn't/wasn't. He IS funky, though. Without a doubt. He's just not at the top of the funk food chain. This thread has been shifted from point to point to point. People have tried to strawman it into "Prince isn't funky at all" to "Prince didn't influence music" to "Prince's use of synths and other side topics. A lot of people on here try to imply that Prince "mastered" funk and moved on. He didn't. He moved on, yes. Mastered funk? No. He borrowed elements. In the context of funk songs, his resume is light.
LOL..it amazes me how all of a sudden I've become the leader of the Prince cheerleaders...That to me is hilarious...The only thing that has shifted about this thread is you and dude grabbing on to whatever argument u can find to veer from the original point that was made... I mean really...The first post read simply as "Prince was never that funky"....Then it said "Prince was a joke when it came to the funk" because of Scotch had a few friends to back him up... All of the other stuff you guys latched onto was just smokescreen...The "Prince wasn't the first to use synths" bit...The "Prince wasn't the first to use drum machines" bs (these "strawman" arguments, as you call them, came from Butterscotch Pimp, not me...) Of course no one (with knowledge of music history) ever said he was the first to do any of those things...But I did say he was first to strip the entire usage down to the point where he created a "Prince" sound...Again, how is that a crazy statement? I even agreed, from the jump, that Prince was never a "funk God" (one of the other points that was bought up to zero in on the fandom on this site), a point btw, that was never made or co-signed by me his genre hopping.... What I did say and will continue to say is the Midget had a huge impact on the evolution of modern funk...Nothing crazy there, right? Except it is when you are dealing with folks that mistake being a Contrarian with being the rebel of a Prince fan site...That's what happens when you try too hard... What continues to fly over your head is this: Prince did indeed master the funk....He contributed greatly (and some music historians say created) and mastered the "new funk" that left many a band behind that could not adapt after the '70s...If you can't understand that, then that's on you... [Edited 8/31/08 13:33pm] | |
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BlaqueKnight said:[quote]PoorGoo813 said:
Okay, that's a little insulting. So, first off [Flame snip - luv4u] I don't feel the need to explain everything to a condescending [Name calling snip - luv4u] but I will answer one question - "Where did the horns and orchestration go?" Its called a key members clause. Many of them started popping up in record label contracts in the early 80s. Ask Cameo about it. Because of a lot of the conflicts and lawsuits, labels started making these clauses in their contracts that stated that only a few members of a band were actually signed to the label (key members) and the rest were independent contractors, that way the trumpet player can't sue over compositional rights of that funky "September" song.
This pretty much dissolved a LOT of extra members in bands. The progression of technology (synths) was occuring at the same time. Prince didn't invent synths. If a synth can sound like a horn or strings, how the hell can anyone credit that to Prince? There were lots of people using synths at the time. Prince got POPULAR, which drew more attention for it to become a popular thing to do. He wasn't the ONLY one doing it just like Madonna wasn't the only one vogueing in the 90s. She took something and made it POPULAR. Hell, Kraftwerk was using synths for strings/orchestrations in the late 70s. Rick James was using the shit out of synths in the very early 80s and he, unlike Prince at the time, was at the top of the R&B charts. The better technology got, the better the sounds got. It became a practical evolution from a business standpoint to reduce the size of bands as technology grew. It still goes on today. So, while Murph and you cheerleaders try to re-write history on a message board, the facts still stand. Influence and synths have nothing to do with Prince not being one of the major forces of FUNK. He isn't/wasn't. He IS funky, though. Without a doubt. He's just not at the top of the funk food chain. This thread has been shifted from point to point to point. People have tried to strawman it into "Prince isn't funky at all" to "Prince didn't influence music" to "Prince's use of synths and other side topics. A lot of people on here try to imply that Prince "mastered" funk and moved on. He didn't. He moved on, yes. Mastered funk? No. He borrowed elements. In the context of funk songs, his resume is light. [Edited 8/31/08 12:06pm] Again you're missing the point. The use of Synths in the early 80's was widespread. It was the way Prince used them and the development of the Minneapolis sound that was influential (sparse minimalistic sound, no strings, jaunty notes, clustered chords, cold feel, linn drums). Haven't you heard Head, Do Me Baby, 1999 stolen in bits and pieces all over the radio? If you cannot hear this sound in popular music (funk, pop, whatever) then you have no musical ear. Whether you want to say the sound was influential in R&b, black music, pop or funky music I could care less. The definition of funk will never be agreed upon. And there is no doubt that the importance of the producer was ushered in by his one man band approach. Name me another black artist who did what he did in the studio. The reasons the labels were able to x out the elements of a big band was because of technology and the emergence of artists like Prince. Stevie was one of the first to do this (Music of My Mind) and Prince took it to another level. Then came Jam/Lewis, Teddy Riley, LA/Babyface, Timberland, etc. the question should be, who are some funk bands (82-84) who were not influenced by P's sound? | |
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murph said: LOL..it amazes me how all of a sudden I've become the leader of the Prince cheerleaders...That to me is hilarious...The only thing that has shifted about this thread is you and dude grabbing on to whatever argument u can find to veer from the original point that was made... I mean really...The first post read simply as "Prince was never that funky"....Then it said "Prince was a joke when it came to the funk" because of Scotch had a few friends to back him up... All of the other stuff you guys latched onto was just smokescreen...The "Prince wasn't the first to use synths" bit...The "Prince wasn't the first to use drum machines" bs (these "strawman" arguments, as you call them, came from Butterscotch Pimp, not me...) Of course no one (with knowledge of music history) ever said he was the first to do any of those things...But I did say he was first to strip the entire usage down to the point where he created a "Prince" sound...Again, how is that a crazy statement? I even agreed, from the jump, that Prince was never a "funk God" (one of the other points that was bought up to zero in on the fandom on this site), a point btw, that was never made or co-signed by me his genre hopping.... What I did say and will continue to say is the Midget had a huge impact on the evolution of modern funk...Nothing crazy there, right? Except it is when you are dealing with folks that mistake being a Contrarian with being the rebel of a Prince fan site...That's what happens when you try too hard... What continues to fly over your head is this: Prince did indeed master the funk....He contributed greatly (and some music historians say created) and mastered the "new funk" that left many a band behind that could not adapt after the '70s...If you can't understand that, then that's on you...  A lot of windbagging.
BP already said that his initial statement was dramatic to draw attention to the thread and have a legit discussion. I guess you missed that, right? No. You just wanted to be an asshole about. A lie is still a lie even with a good presentation. Prince didn't master the funk. That's a lie. He incorporated the sound into what he was doing and built off of it. Its not about what I "can't understand" but rather what I know to be untrue. No matter how you present it, the FACT still stands that as you say "Prince is not one of the funk Gods". That was my point as well. It still stands as truth and regardless to what side argument is presented about influence and no matter how you and some of the others on here try to re-write musical history from a Prince bubble, that fact remains. So, with all of your condescending remarks, snide comments and put-downs, all you have done is reinforced what I have already said. You've made a couple of good points on other topics that would be good for another thread but you have failed miserably on this one. Prince is not at the top of the funk food chain. He didn't "master" funk but rather borrowed elements from it and did his own thing. That's it. | |
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jdcxc said: Again you're missing the point. The use of Synths in the early 80's was widespread. It was the way Prince used them and the development of the Minneapolis sound that was influential (sparse minimalistic sound, no strings, jaunty notes, clustered chords, cold feel, linn drums). Haven't you heard Head, Do Me Baby, 1999 stolen in bits and pieces all over the radio? If you cannot hear this sound in popular music (funk, pop, whatever) then you have no musical ear. Whether you want to say the sound was influential in R&b, black music, pop or funky music I could care less. The definition of funk will never be agreed upon. And there is no doubt that the importance of the producer was ushered in by his one man band approach. Name me another black artist who did what he did in the studio. The reasons the labels were able to x out the elements of a big band was because of technology and the emergence of artists like Prince. Stevie was one of the first to do this (Music of My Mind) and Prince took it to another level. Then came Jam/Lewis, Teddy Riley, LA/Babyface, Timberland, etc. the question should be, who are some funk bands (82-84) who were not influenced by P's sound? Stevie Wonder, Roger Troutman, Shuggie Otis, Rick James, etc., etc., etc. Again, this was not the point I was addressing. You can't find anywhere in any of my posts on this thread where I was arguing that topic, though. Why are you pulling all of these side topics up? That's another thread. I did NOT say Prince was not influential to music. Also, keep in mind that there was an "electro funk" revolution happening at the same time with people like Soulsonic Force, Twilight 22, The Jonzun Crew, etc. that was also due to the progression of synthesizers. So, there were MANY black artists using synths in different ways to change the sound of black music at the time. Again, that is NOT the topic of this thread. With regards to funk, Prince was not one of the heavy hitters. Sorry. | |
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"Maceo, they tried to define FUNK -- if you can describe it, it ain't funky!"
Prince, XENOPHOBIA Using Prince's definition of funk... here goes: I could probably go through Prince's body of work and give you examples album by album -- as early as his genre busting songs on Prince all the way through his latest offerings on Planet Earth I find examples in his music that are quite undefineable. La, la, la
He, he, hee! | |
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Why should anybody use Prince's definition of funk as any sort or marker? That was part of what this thread was about. Prince ain't the one to be defining SHIT other than the MN sound. His definition of funk would be no more significant than his definition of rock, jazz, R&B or techno.
This thread is not about "his" definition but rather where he stands in the broader spectrum of funk. | |
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BlaqueKnight said: BP already said that his initial statement was dramatic to draw attention to the thread and have a legit discussion. I guess you missed that, right? No. You just wanted to be an asshole about. A lie is still a lie even with a good presentation.
Indeed...that was duly noted...But the "Prince didn't have any influence on funk"/"Prince didn't do funk" was the foundation for the overall debate that myself and BP started to engage in...The funny part is I never got out of pocket until the "fanbot" charges started to be thrown every which way...And I certainly never came at you in a disrespctful manner until u started to make this argument into an us against the Org crazies...lol... BlaqueKnight said: Prince didn't master the funk. That's a lie. He incorporated the sound into what he was doing and built off of it.
And this ^^^^is the underlining point that I've been getting at all along...U and BP basically are going by the assumption that you can both define what funk is...That much was noted when BP pulled out his traditionalist card...So what happens if you believe that all the true funk came out during its '70s peak? That means that anything else is merely a hybrid...fake funk...watered-down funk... As for yourself, I have no idea why you even started to get into this convo...because your whole aim all along was to say that Prince was not a Funk God...and that folks that believe this are simply fanbots...The irony is I even said (early on) that Prince was not a Funk God, myself...MY entire debate was was the way BP was limiting Prince's impact on the funk and how that was revisionist history... Of course, if u believe that what was going on from 1981 to 84 was never true funk to begin with, then there's no sense in keeping up with the debate... BlaqueKnight said: Its not about what I "can't understand" but rather what I know to be untrue. No matter how you present it, the FACT still stands that as you say "Prince is not one of the funk Gods". That was my point as well. It still stands as truth and regardless to what side argument is presented about influence and no matter how you and some of the others on here try to re-write musical history from a Prince bubble, that fact remains.
This is a classic case of someone coming into a debate between two parties (BP and myself) and targeting a point that was never at the center of a discussion...That was never a side argument for me...THESE were always my primary points: Keith Murphy disagreed with saying that.... A) Prince didn't have a huge impact in the evoltuion of funk... B) that what Prince created was not a template for the new, stripped down funk of the '80s that became prominent even before 1999...and.... C) That Prince could not funk it up with the best of them and that he should be labeled as a "funk act" (I agreed that he simply couldn't because he genre jumped waaaay too much...) That's it... BlaqueKnight said: So, with all of your condescending remarks, snide comments and put-downs...
Pot calling the kettle black...lol BlaqueKnight said: all you have done is reinforced what I have already said. You've made a couple of good points on other topics that would be good for another thread but you have failed miserably on this one. Prince is not at the top of the funk food chain. He didn't "master" funk but rather borrowed elements from it and did his own thing. That's it.
Prince mastered the new funk...And I think I've given enough examples to write a term paper...That's all I've ever said...This was never a pissing contest (like for u two)...this is something I get paid to do...I love writing about music...I love debating...It's my job...And i will continue to love it...Ya dig? The funny thing is I find it ludricous that you picked a cyber fight with me and called me condescending...Last time I checked, labeling anyone that doesn't agree with you a fanbot or Kool-Aid drinkers is not exactly being engaged in a spirited, respectful debate...I mean, anyone can see that u and BP came at me thinking I was an Org head who believes that Prince was the KING of all music...When that idea exlpoded, it suddenly turned into me being condescending...I mean really, I could easily tell you why I'm so confident in my opinion, but why bother? All this to say is you never know who posts on such boards...it may surprise you... Until then, I'll leave u with the homie BP's own words on the matter (I don't take this shit seriously...dude seems like he's still cool folks...) that may show why this entire debate had problems from the beginning... Sure, i'll admit my definition of what "funk" is, is pretty narrow. Because i'm one of those that doesn't think that variations of a music genre are necessarily the same as the original So basically it comes down to what is real and what is fake funk...And since no one ever gave a clear definition, what does that say? Peace brother... [Edited 8/31/08 15:28pm] | |
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BlaqueKnight said: Why should anybody use Prince's definition of funk as any sort or marker? That was part of what this thread was about. [b]Prince ain't the one to be defining SHIT other than the MN sound. His definition of funk would be no more significant than his definition of rock, jazz, R&B or techno.
This thread is not about "his" definition but rather where he stands in the broader spectrum of funk. [/b]  
So You TWO CLOWNS are the most qualified to define what is and isn’t FUNK! lol, yes, go to moms fridge and take down your hand made crayola FUNK certificate and post it here for us to verify. You two are hilarious!, i almost expect a shit eating " just kidding!" at the end of this mess! The funk buddies, you are too much! I'm enjoying you two dig yourselves deeper and deeper into your own ridiculous hole, lol | |
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BlaqueKnight said: Influence and synths have nothing to do with Prince not being one of the major forces of FUNK. He isn't/wasn't. He IS funky, though. Without a doubt. He's just not at the top of the funk food chain. - Yes, because he didnt do funk-only albums and because he wasnt one of the creators of funk. But he is funkier than some very well known ´funk´ artists, who are more disco than funk. [Edited 8/31/08 21:25pm] |
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BlaqueKnight said: jdcxc said: Again you're missing the point. The use of Synths in the early 80's was widespread. It was the way Prince used them and the development of the Minneapolis sound that was influential (sparse minimalistic sound, no strings, jaunty notes, clustered chords, cold feel, linn drums). Haven't you heard Head, Do Me Baby, 1999 stolen in bits and pieces all over the radio? If you cannot hear this sound in popular music (funk, pop, whatever) then you have no musical ear. Whether you want to say the sound was influential in R&b, black music, pop or funky music I could care less. The definition of funk will never be agreed upon. And there is no doubt that the importance of the producer was ushered in by his one man band approach. Name me another black artist who did what he did in the studio. The reasons the labels were able to x out the elements of a big band was because of technology and the emergence of artists like Prince. Stevie was one of the first to do this (Music of My Mind) and Prince took it to another level. Then came Jam/Lewis, Teddy Riley, LA/Babyface, Timberland, etc. the question should be, who are some funk bands (82-84) who were not influenced by P's sound? Stevie Wonder, Roger Troutman, Shuggie Otis, Rick James, etc., etc., etc. I already named Stevie as a forerunner in studio mastery. But c'mon...Shuggie Otis. A talented cat and I love Strawberry but I wasn't asking for a list of multi-instrumentalists. Troutman and Rick James never produced a complete album by themselves alone in a studio. Rick James used to criticize P for his sterile and plastic production sound brought on by recording by himself. Prince was a studio revolutionary. He changed the face of the game. Of course, a thread this long will go in several different directions. But I agree with murph that with such a narrow, purist and limited definition of Funk, there never really was a debate in the first place. But I dare you to find a thorough music journalistic or historical take on Funk in which P's influence is not referenced. But it has been a good time. I'm hoping for another thread from BP, dogging P's musical legacy. How bout one about Prince's weak falsetto? He's no Al Green or Eddie Kendricks. | |
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jdcxc said:[quote] BlaqueKnight said: Rick James used to criticize P for his sterile and plastic production sound brought on by recording by himself. It's funny, everytime I see Rick mentioned, I always think about how Rick mentioned in his book that he had his people break into a studio and steal Prince's keyboards so they could "borrow" P's sound that Rick loved so much. Don't know if what Rick said truly went down BUT it did say what Rick himself thought of P's sound. That was a way of Rick complimenting Prince and I was surprised by Rick saying that being that Rick was the first cat to ever call Prince out in the media as Prince "being out to lunch", a "little science fiction creep" and "something else...Prince doesn't want to be black." SynthiaRose said "I'm in love with blackguitaristz. Especially when he talks about Hendrix."
nammie "What BGZ says I believe. I have the biggest crush on him." http://ccoshea19.googlepa...ssanctuary http://ccoshea19.googlepages.com | |
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blackguitaristz said:[quote] jdcxc said: BlaqueKnight said: Rick James used to criticize P for his sterile and plastic production sound brought on by recording by himself. It's funny, everytime I see Rick mentioned, I always think about how Rick mentioned in his book that he had his people break into a studio and steal Prince's keyboards so they could "borrow" P's sound that Rick loved so much. Don't know if what Rick said truly went down BUT it did say what Rick himself thought of P's sound. That was a way of Rick complimenting Prince and I was surprised by Rick saying that being that Rick was the first cat to ever call Prince out in the media as Prince "being out to lunch", a "little science fiction creep" and "something else...Prince doesn't want to be black." Hey Black, I like Rick James Superfreak and also Give it to me baby.... but I think Prince is more talented.  | |
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Everybody obviously has a right to their opinion about anything and what "funk" truly is and if Prince's "funk" is valid. To me, like I stated hella early in this thread, that funk is so many different things. I won't mention again about certain rock bands being funky..i.e Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, cuz I KNOW I will lose damn near everybody on here with that. And that's cool..So I'll just use the sterotypical vision of what "funk" really is. The Ohio Players "funk" was obviously an influence on Cameo's "funk" but so was Parliament to a degree. But Cameo's "funk" was totally different than Zapp's "funk". The Isley Bros. "funk" is totally different from Graham Central Station's "funk". In many cases, several folks don't even consider Funkadelic, a band with the actual word "funk" in it's name as even being "funky". Cue up "Who Says A Funk Band Can't Play Rock?". That's why I adore Funkadelic so much and why they are and have been, a MAJOR influence on me. And cue up Prince... Prince NEVER intended nor desired to be just a "funk" artist. He was a brutha that dug James and Sly as much as he dug Hendrix and Santana. Prince's "goal" musically was to basically mesh everybody that he dug no matter of it's musical genre. That was obviously Prince's musical vision, to NOT commit to one scene. But as far as what "REAL" funk is, then that's up to the listener. Like I stated, the Isley's funk and Cameo's funk to me, is REAL funk although their totally different. So who's to say which one is the MOST "truest" in form. Is "SuperFreak" any more "funk" than "D.M.S.R.?" Is "Mary Jane" any more "funk" than "Lady Cab Driver"? It's all valid to me. It's just different types of what REAL funk is. That's just me. [Edited 9/1/08 0:51am] SynthiaRose said "I'm in love with blackguitaristz. Especially when he talks about Hendrix."
nammie "What BGZ says I believe. I have the biggest crush on him." http://ccoshea19.googlepa...ssanctuary http://ccoshea19.googlepages.com | |
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pplrain said: blackguitaristz said: It's funny, everytime I see Rick mentioned, I always think about how Rick mentioned in his book that he had his people break into a studio and steal Prince's keyboards so they could "borrow" P's sound that Rick loved so much. Don't know if what Rick said truly went down BUT it did say what Rick himself thought of P's sound. That was a way of Rick complimenting Prince and I was surprised by Rick saying that being that Rick was the first cat to ever call Prince out in the media as Prince "being out to lunch", a "little science fiction creep" and "something else...Prince doesn't want to be black." Hey Black, I like Rick James Superfreak and also Give it to me baby.... but I think Prince is more talented. Um,.. now which "Black" are u refering to? Me or my brutha in crime, Blaque? U talking to "guitaristz" or "Knight"? SynthiaRose said "I'm in love with blackguitaristz. Especially when he talks about Hendrix."
nammie "What BGZ says I believe. I have the biggest crush on him." http://ccoshea19.googlepa...ssanctuary http://ccoshea19.googlepages.com | |
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blackguitaristz said: pplrain said: Hey Black, I like Rick James Superfreak and also Give it to me baby.... but I think Prince is more talented. Um,.. now which "Black" are u refering to? Me or my brutha in crime, Blaque? U talking to "guitaristz" or "Knight"? I quoted you.  | |
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I 've been hip to murph on this site and I've definately been hip to my man BlaqueKnight. I hate to see cats go THIS way. It's not necessary. It's not THAT deep either. I understand where both of ya'll are coming from. I think where murph is at is not wanting to "understate" P's influence in early 80's funk. Sure, many folks were already using the same elements in the early 80's as Prince. But what murph is saying is that nobody was doing it in such a bold way as Prince did on his Dirty Mind album. Now let me interject right here. To me, I clearly remeber what it was like when Dirty Mind was released. The musical enviroment out here in Los Angeles. My impression of the Dirty Mind album was a true hybrid of funk/new wave and even punk rock. P was basically doing the Stones type of "funk" ala "Miss You" with Elvis Costello thrown in along with the punk rock rage. Especially in the lyrics. But because P was a brutha, he got attention from black acts. Now to me, although some of the album was "funky", I wouldn't classify it as a "funk" album. Fuck no. Nor do I think that was Prince's intention. SynthiaRose said "I'm in love with blackguitaristz. Especially when he talks about Hendrix."
nammie "What BGZ says I believe. I have the biggest crush on him." http://ccoshea19.googlepa...ssanctuary http://ccoshea19.googlepages.com | |
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blackguitaristz said: I 've been hip to murph on this site and I've definately been hip to my man BlaqueKnight. I hate to see cats go THIS way. It's not necessary. It's not THAT deep either. I understand where both of ya'll are coming from. I think where murph is at is not wanting to "understate" P's influence in early 80's funk. Sure, many folks were already using the same elements in the early 80's as Prince. But what murph is saying is that nobody was doing it in such a bold way as Prince did on his Dirty Mind album. Now let me interject right here. To me, I clearly remeber what it was like when Dirty Mind was released. The musical enviroment out here in Los Angeles. My impression of the Dirty Mind album was a true hybrid of funk/new wave and even punk rock. P was basically doing the Stones type of "funk" ala "Miss You" with Elvis Costello thrown in along with the punk rock rage. Especially in the lyrics. But because P was a brutha, he got attention from black acts. Now to me, although some of the album was "funky", I wouldn't classify it as a "funk" album. Fuck no. Nor do I think that was Prince's intention.
BUT I do understand what murph was saying about the "influence" Dirty Mind had on other black acts. I think the reason why acts like Zapp/Roger, Cameo, especially their Alligator Woman album (which to me, IS Prince inspired, in SPIRIT, if nothing else) and others in 82-83 was digging Prince was because of P's "freedom" more than anything. Prince showcased his freedom in a way that not many bruthas in music had done before. Jimi & Sly (and even before them, a cat that both Jimi and Sly bit from was Arthur Lee from the band Love) all exuded a certain type of freedom. Not just in their music but in their dress and attitude. I think that's what Prince represented in the early 80's, that very freedom and attitude, THAT is what influenced other funk acts in the early 80's more than anything musically. That's why they respected Prince. Prince was going to put some weird ass KOO KOO shit over a funk groove. He was going to scream like a fucking lunatic. What Prince was singing about also was "out of the box" for a funk act as well. Plus the way Prince dressed, be it from Dirty Mind to Controversy to 1999. P flaunted his shit which was pimpish as well as 'girlish". But the funk acts understood that the girls were digging it and I think they respected P's attitude. That again goes towards the "freedom" element that existed strongly in P's thing. Again, it's THAT what I think "influenced" and "inspired" the funk acts in the early 80's. Prince's freedom and his attitude. I definately think they got a kick out of this little brutha who was a hella musician, songwriter and performer. P had the chops and the flash to back it up. I think that inspired them to be a little bit more "out there". It influenced their "mentality". [Edited 9/1/08 1:25am] SynthiaRose said "I'm in love with blackguitaristz. Especially when he talks about Hendrix."
nammie "What BGZ says I believe. I have the biggest crush on him." http://ccoshea19.googlepa...ssanctuary http://ccoshea19.googlepages.com | |
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blackguitaristz said: blackguitaristz said: I 've been hip to murph on this site and I've definately been hip to my man BlaqueKnight. I hate to see cats go THIS way. It's not necessary. It's not THAT deep either. I understand where both of ya'll are coming from. I think where murph is at is not wanting to "understate" P's influence in early 80's funk. Sure, many folks were already using the same elements in the early 80's as Prince. But what murph is saying is that nobody was doing it in such a bold way as Prince did on his Dirty Mind album. Now let me interject right here. To me, I clearly remeber what it was like when Dirty Mind was released. The musical enviroment out here in Los Angeles. My impression of the Dirty Mind album was a true hybrid of funk/new wave and even punk rock. P was basically doing the Stones type of "funk" ala "Miss You" with Elvis Costello thrown in along with the punk rock rage. Especially in the lyrics. But because P was a brutha, he got attention from black acts. Now to me, although some of the album was "funky", I wouldn't classify it as a "funk" album. Fuck no. Nor do I think that was Prince's intention.
BUT I do understand what murph was saying about the "influence" Dirty Mind had on other black acts. I think the reason why acts like Zapp/Roger, Cameo, especially their Alligator Woman album (which to me, IS Prince inspired, in SPIRIT, if nothing else) and others in 82-83 was digging Prince was because of P's "freedom" more than anything. Prince showcased his freedom in a way that not many bruthas in music had done before. Jimi & Sly (and even before them, a cat that both Jimi and Sly bit from was Arthur Lee from the band Love) all exuded a certain type of freedom. Not just in their music but in their dress and attitude. I think that's what Prince represented in the early 80's, that very freedom and attitude, THAT is what influenced other funk acts in the early 80's more than anything musically. That's why they respected Prince. Prince was going to put some weird ass KOO KOO shit over a funk groove. He was going to scream like a fucking lunatic. What Prince was singing about also was "out of the box" for a funk act as well. Plus the way Prince dressed, be it from Dirty Mind to Controversy to 1999. P flaunted his shit which was pimpish as well as 'girlish". But the funk acts understood that the girls were digging it and I think they respected P's attitude. That again goes towards the "freedom" element that existed strongly in P's thing. Again, it's THAT what I think "influenced" and "inspired" the funk acts in the early 80's. Prince's freedom and his attitude. I definately think they got a kick out of this little brutha who was a hella musician, songwriter and performer. P had the chops and the flash to back it up. I think that inspired them to be a little bit more "out there". It influenced their "mentality". [Edited 9/1/08 1:25am] Also, I do understand what Blaque is saying. Which I don't gather murph was disagreeing with. murph also touched on the heat P put on the black acts with The Time's first album. That is true..Out here in L.A, black radio played the fuck out of The Time's debut album. Waaaay more than Dirty Mind. The stations out here didn't even fuck with the Dirty Mind album. They played "Uptown" very little when it was first released and that was it. But see, The Time's first album is what P would have done if he wanted a black audience exclusively at the time, which he didn't. He knew that material on that album would hit big on black radio and that gave him a blueprint for what he would go on to do himself on his 1999 album. But not only the music from The Time's first album caught on with the black market, again, so did the "attitude" in the lyrics. "Get It Up" even with P's long ass guitar solo, no song had showcased that type of funk groove with a blistering rock guitar solo since Slave's song "Slide". P and Morris was singing shit like "Get it up..I'll fuck you all night." Cut's like The Stick were HUGE with black audiences. It was a "new" type of nastiness in funk. AGAIN, that's what I'm talking about that I believe influenced other funk acts. It was the attitude. These cats were singing about being "Cool". That's a state of mind Prince was pimping. Same thing with Vanity 6's "Nasty Girl". Now, I don't know about ya'll, but out here in Southern Cali, "Nasty Girl" was HUGE. And it was definately funky. Same type of "attitude" that The Time had but just with some fine ass girls doing the singing instead. Again, same type of a new type of nasty. A frankness in the lyrics that were not found in big radio hits. Again, it was P's vibe in his productions...he showed it more with The Time and Vanity 6 than he did with himself. [Edited 9/1/08 1:47am] SynthiaRose said "I'm in love with blackguitaristz. Especially when he talks about Hendrix."
nammie "What BGZ says I believe. I have the biggest crush on him." http://ccoshea19.googlepa...ssanctuary http://ccoshea19.googlepages.com | |
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I'm just so proud of you all today.. i could cry... truly.. real tears
BlacqueKnight and BP.. I'm still curious as to how you see Prince and the minneapolis sound.. special/fresh/new, or just a natural product of the technology and influences? | |
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blackguitaristz said: Everybody obviously has a right to their opinion about anything and what "funk" truly is and if Prince's "funk" is valid. To me, like I stated hella early in this thread, that funk is so many different things. I won't mention again about certain rock bands being funky..i.e Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, cuz I KNOW I will lose damn near everybody on here with that. And that's cool..So I'll just use the sterotypical vision of what "funk" really is. The Ohio Players "funk" was obviously an influence on Cameo's "funk" but so was Parliament to a degree. But Cameo's "funk" was totally different than Zapp's "funk". The Isley Bros. "funk" is totally different from Graham Central Station's "funk". In many cases, several folks don't even consider Funkadelic, a band with the actual word "funk" in it's name as even being "funky". Cue up "Who Says A Funk Band Can't Play Rock?". That's why I adore Funkadelic so much and why they are and have been, a MAJOR influence on me. And cue up Prince... Prince NEVER intended nor desired to be just a "funk" artist. He was a brutha that dug James and Sly as much as he dug Hendrix and Santana. Prince's "goal" musically was to basically mesh everybody that he dug no matter of it's musical genre. That was obviously Prince's musical vision, to NOT commit to one scene. But as far as what "REAL" funk is, then that's up to the listener. Like I stated, the Isley's funk and Cameo's funk to me, is REAL funk although their totally different. So who's to say which one is the MOST "truest" in form. Is "SuperFreak" any more "funk" than "D.M.S.R.?" Is "Mary Jane" any more "funk" than "Lady Cab Driver"? It's all valid to me. It's just different types of what REAL funk is. That's just me.
[Edited 9/1/08 0:51am] I agree with your philosophy. Patsy Cline (country artist) had soul. Music is about multiple complex influences that have many different roots. Who's job is it to put it in a certain box. I don't think most musicians would have this argument. That's why so many artists (Miles, Stevie, Troutman, Marsalis, Springsteen, Vernon Reid,etc.) have given P such props. Your concept of musical freedom is one of P's greatest realizations. Prince refused to accept the terms of the game. Only a few artists have been able to accomplish this in the music business. Miles quote: "I really love Prince, and after I heard him, I wanted to play with him sometime. Prince is from the school of James Brown...But Prince got some Marvin Gaye and Jimi Hendrix and Sly in him, also, even Little Richard. He's a mixture of all those guys and Duke Ellington. He reminds me, in a way, of Charlie Chaplin...But it's the church thing I hear in his music that makes him special. | |
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blackguitaristz said:[quote] jdcxc said: BlaqueKnight said: Rick James used to criticize P for his sterile and plastic production sound brought on by recording by himself. It's funny, everytime I see Rick mentioned, I always think about how Rick mentioned in his book that he had his people break into a studio and steal Prince's keyboards so they could "borrow" P's sound that Rick loved so much. Don't know if what Rick said truly went down BUT it did say what Rick himself thought of P's sound. That was a way of Rick complimenting Prince and I was surprised by Rick saying that being that Rick was the first cat to ever call Prince out in the media as Prince "being out to lunch", a "little science fiction creep" and "something else...Prince doesn't want to be black." Yeah, I always wondered what there musical appreciation was beyond the media driven competition Barnum/Bailey stuff. It would be interesting to hear Prince's musical opinion of Rick. I viewed his covering of Give It To Me Baby during the last couple of years as his form of a salute to the punkfunk greatness of RJ. | |
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