toots said:

Interesting how my threads get locked up 4 stuff much LESS dramatic than this.

Graycap23 said:

Also interesting since ya'll can't come at me with actual facts or opinions anymore now it's begging the mods to lock the thread.

ButterscotchPimp said:

Fact.
I've read what your opinion is on Funk. I don't agree with any of it.

Graycap23 said:

Ditto.
So you keep running back in here because.....?

Prince's importance relevance in the black community in '80- '82. Yeah he was selling records, but he wasn't even topping the r&b charts during those years. In certain markets (like Detroit) he was popular but it wasn't by any means a national thing even in the black community.

murph said:

I'm going to stop short of calling you a straight up clown, but your little delusion of what you think you've done on this thread is comical. You're Mike Tyson. Gotcha. And you're the one that's in here acting like you write for fucking Rolling Stone and dismissing anyone that doesn't agree with your weak ass argument as "having not listened to music".

Nice try on trying to insinuate that i threw out Aretha Franklin and Grover Washington, Jr as "funk acts". Now who the fuck is baiting and switching? YOU were talking about how Prince was "relevant" in the black community in '80-'82. I Googled the BILLBOARD CHARTS and came up with the albums that topped the charts and then pointed out how the sound you gave credit to PRINCE for injecting into funk and r&b was already happening on it's own, and THIS is what you come back with?

I expected better from you, actually.

1979
The reviews of Prince were mostly encouraging, with many critics lauding Prince’s originality and genre-busting music. Most noted his growth as a songwriter and his ability to make music that was accessible without being overly commercial. The album made number three on Billboard’s Soul Album Chart, staying there for 23 weeks. It got to number 22 on the Pop Chart. The record attained platinum status (1 million copies sold) in February 1980.

http://www.housequake.com...phy_prince


1980
The critics generally approved of Dirty Mind although they disagreed violently over the merits of the lyrics and subjects of some of the songs. Some felt the songs were vulgar and lacked subtlety, while others praised the lyrics for being forthright. However, the vast majority of writers were intrigued by the exciting mix of rock and funk music. The album reached number 45 on Billboard’s Pop Chart and number seven on the Soul Chart. It attained gold status in the US (500,000 copies sold) after the success of Purple Rain in 1984. While not a great commercial success, Dirty Mind fundamentally changed the direction of Prince’s career.

http://www.housequake.com..._dirtymind


1981
Controversy met with good reviews, although the superlatives didn’t remotely approach the level of Dirty Mind. It received some criticism for being pretentious and a self-conscious attempt by Prince to explain his sexual philosophies, which had felt instinctive and spontaneous on Dirty Mind. Many critics had reservations about “Ronnie, Talk To Russia” and “Annie Christian,” the two most overtly political songs. Despite minimal pop and rock radio airplay, it fared much better than Dirty Mind, turning gold in three months (it was certified platinum, one million copies, in January 1985). It hit the number three spot on the Soul Chart and reached number 21 on the Pop Chart.

http://www.housequake.com...ontroversy

I'm going to stop short of calling you a straight up clown, but your little delusion of what you think you've done on this thread is comical. You're Mike Tyson. Gotcha. And you're the one that's in here acting like you write for fucking Rolling Stone and dismissing anyone that doesn't agree with your weak ass argument as "having not listened to music".

Nice try on trying to insinuate that i threw out Aretha Franklin and Grover Washington, Jr as "funk acts". Now who the fuck is baiting and switching? YOU were talking about how Prince was "relevant" in the black community in '80-'82. I Googled the BILLBOARD CHARTS and came up with the albums that topped the charts and then pointed out how the sound you gave credit to PRINCE for injecting into funk and r&b was already happening on it's own, and THIS is what you come back with?

I expected better from you, actually.

ButterscotchPimp said:

actually, it does sound like he works for rolling stone..
Hey murph.. do you work for rolling stone?

ButterscotchPimp said:

Hahahahaha....u really r clueless here...

First, I think u r feeling yourself a little waaay too much...You are not the most hated man on the Org...LOL...From the times I've spent on this site (this is the first time in a while I've even posted this much on the Org...) I've never heard of you...In fact, I think I've been as patient and respectful with you as I can...Certainly more than other folks...But when u started with the "Fanbot" shit, that's when I decided to meet u on your own level..

And for someone in their early 40s you seem unable to grasp common sense...I bought up the names of those acts u listed to point out that they had NOTHING to do with this debate...We were always talking about funk music...Of course I know that you never meant that Re Re and the others were not funk acts...No shit...lol

My point was merely to say that bringing up record sales from oldschool R&B acts and a contempoary jazz player was moot in our conversation...It smacked of show-and-tell desperation...It was weak actually...

You will keep up this little sad song and dance until this thread is locked...lol...Now it seems you have actually turned this thread into a rambling bait and switch joke..Your underlining point (which btw had some interesting points before u got desperate...) was smashed to pieces...So now the debate has turned into something entirely different...

I've had better debates with a goldfish...

You throwing out Jermaine Jackson, Stevie, Smokey, Aretha, Kool And The Gang, and Grover Washington Jr?...lol...These indeed were popular and damn good albums embraced by the black community....But they were not what was poppin on the funk music circuit...They were not on the funk circuit...They were not the sound of what was bubbling with the young black music scene...In other words, no one was trying to jack the production of those acts by the beginning of the '80s...

Thanks for reinforcing my point. Appreciate it.

So far i havent reacted on this thread. But what the OP is stating is pure misconception, IMO.

I agree, Prince might not be a pure 'funk'-artist in essence, but that is exactly what i like about the fellow: as much as i love funk, i am glad he isnt repeating itself and far more versatile then James Brown and George Clinton.

But when it comes to Princes funk-legacy i see a straight line from: James Brown, Sly Stone, George Clinton to the Minneapolis sound.
Funk has never been a style of music that is 'puritan' at all, like for example: Blues and reggae.
One of the main strengths of funk is that its a style of music that can mix so well with other styles of music, to create new kinds of arrangements and sound experience.
James Brown might have created the pure 'backbone' of funk, but The Meters mixed it with swampy New Orleans sounds, Sly Stone melted it with psychedelic rock and soul, Miles Davis brought it into jazz-fusion and George Clinton propelled it into space.
The main achievement of Prince is that he has used ´the funk´ to redefine how music should sound, how you can arrange songs in a special way. And, of course, as not merely a funkartist (Cameo and Rick James come to mind) he has been intelligent and versatile enough to influence the whole 'landscape of pop'.

There is no myth of funk, its a history lesson. Prince did understand funk in the early eighties, and saw the possibilities funk had to merge with pop, rock, new wave and soul. It gave us the Minneapolis sound.
And allthough Prince hasnt released any 'pure funk'-albums during his career (but who gives a damn about puritans?), i can easily say that his album '1999' and the more 'refined' incursions into beat programming and arranging after that (especially the Sign of the Times album) have had a tremendous influence on how music 'sounds' nowadays.

Personally i consider 1999 his most influential album. You hear stark echoes from it on the production work of Timbaland, Missy Elliot and the Neptunes. Next to that: the commercial style of the swedish producers from 'bubblegum' acts like Britney Spears and The Backstreet Boys is obviously influenced by it: the ways the beats are programmed, the synth sounds, its all there.
But there are also more 'left-wing' artists influenced by those sounds, especially in the dancedepartement. The current electro-funk movement owes a lot to Prince. Artists like Daft Punk, Peaches and Stijn 'steal' a lot from Princes early incursions intro electro-funk.

Next to that, the often more refined drum-and-bass demosound Prince shows on especially Sign of the Times can be heard again on Lenny Kravitz debut album, on the albums of the 'English Prince' Karl Wallinger (aka World Party) and Beck knows to deal with it also. So (alternative) rockartists find inspiration in Prince too.

Finally, you have so many artists who are indirectly influenced by what Prince has done: Outkast, certain hip-hop productions (combining digital beats with acoustic instruments), Madonna, Justin Timberlake, Janet Jackson (during her Jam and lewis-period), D'angelo, The Roots, to name a few.

To conclude: Prince might be not a funk-artist in essence, he is simply more then that. He has used elements of the funk to create his own music and in that way influenced numerous of others who came after him.

ButterscotchPimp said:

Maybe they're not peaks at number 1, but 6 singles and 3 albums in various TopTen-charts of Billboard's R&B-listings seems pretty high on national level (imo)

savvy said:

Wow. For someone that you don't find "relevant" and that you do find as "stupid", you sure seem to be spending a lot of energy on this thread trying to prove some misguided point.

You say i'm waffling, but i think i've discussed whatever was in front of me, proven my point REPEATEDLY and have given as good as i've gotten.

It's all perception, i guess.
Here's a "I Hate BSP" membership card for ya.
Thanks for coming.

Wow. You can't back up the shit you talk AT ALL, and this is all you've got left.

I almost feel sorry for you, except i don't. You shot your mouth off about how Prince influenced the direction of funk and r&b in '80 - '82 and i pull up the top 5 albums in r&b from the years in question and since it doesn't reinforce what YOU were trying to say, you come in and ramble about "bait and switch" claim it's "desperate" and then wait for one of your little buddies to run and and get your e-back. Yikes.Again, i'm sorry if i'm not what some of ya'll are used to dealing with around here. Intelligent, opinionated and able to hold up my end of an argument. And now since you're little theory didn't pan out, once again here's someone else asking for a mod to shut the thread down.

YOU took the conversation in this direction, remember mr. "big time writer"?

Weren't you the one that insisted that Prince was "shaping the direction of funk and r&b" in the early 80's? And then when me and BK got specific about it, you wanted to get more specific about it. So when i point out albums that were charting that OBVIOUSLY were going in the synth/drum machine direction and had NOTHING TO DO WITH PRINCE, now you want say "well we we're just talking about the funk, and they had nothing to do with it"?

C'mon player. I'm about to throw some syrup on your ass, cuz you are a STRAIGHT UP WAFFLE.

ButterscotchPimp said:

yeah a lot of energy...your posts outnumber mine about 20:1. Save that shit for someone that doesn't know how to read...

You've given nothing. So guess what you've received....

Your card is being used for kindling for my bar bq.

I couldn't find the statics of DM and Controversy, though the Prince-album from 1979 peaked 23 weeks on number 3, so my guess is that one had a relevant impact ?
[Edited 8/29/08 13:11pm]

savvy said:

guys... come on..every day without fail we have to go over this shit..

get over it and move forward.. this thread is too long to waste the space. saavy, make a point or shut up (and the rest of you too.. greycap and LA4O)

plus, it's started seeping into the intelligent exchange and that fankly is making me sad

BP.. you obviously know a little something about music.. but your exchanges with these baiters waters down your arguments.....

ButterscotchPimp said:

Nah, that's been u for the most part..



LOL...now that's rich..I pointed that out because these albums first were not "funk" or even the new brand of R&B coming out...How hard is that not to understand? Did u ride that short yellow bus as a kid?...All the acts that I mentioned: Cameo, Bar-Kays, and George (during 82-83) are so far and removed from Grover Washington Jr. that it's not even funny...It was a bad analogy...From a guy that is just playing with himself...

ButterscotchPimp said:

what a joke...lol

Now please save the "toast" icons...U acting like u are 16 on these boards...
[Edited 8/29/08 13:21pm]

PoorGoo813 said:

The short list of songs from Prince that i think are "funk".

We Can Funk
Hide The Bone

and from The Time,
My Drawers

That's it.

I really wrestled with adding The Exodus Has Begun, but decided against it.

murph said:

LAST TIME.
YOU said Prince had a "sweeping influence" on funk and r&b in 80-82.
I disagreed.
YOU got specific with artists mentioning the Bar-Kays, Cameo and George.
I argued that music was already headed in that direction.
YOU wanted specifics
I pulled up this.




Top R&B/Hip-Hop Albums 1981 Purchase Historical Charts Complete Chart at Billboard.biz
Position Artist Name
Album Title
Imprint | Distributing Label

1 Rick James
Street Songs
Gordy


2 Stevie Wonder
Hotter Than July
Tamla


3 The Gap Band
III
Mercury


4 Smokey Robinson
Being With You
Tamla


5 Grover Washington Jr.
Winelight
Elektra


So why do you keep trying to deflect the convo now by mentioning the acts YOU mentioned had nothing to do with Grover Washington, Jr when that's so OBVIOUSLY NOT THE POINT AND YOU KNOW IT.

I was referring to the fact that The Gap Band AND Rick AND Stevie had ALREADY GONE IN THAT DIRECTION with NO INFLUENCE FROM PRINCE.

So YOUR response WOULD BE.....?

ButterscotchPimp said:

.....U nuts....

I am going to do something I NEVER do on here, I am going to take back something I said earlier. I had said that I think the thread should die because I felt that all the points that needed to be made were made already but somehow or another, this thread has gone in yet another direction that I didn't think it would go and damnit if it isn't interesting. I was wrong. I don't have anymore to add to the discussion but it'll be interesting to see where this thread goes next.

for anyone playing catch-up this thread has developed

it isn't about whether he is funky(actually, it never was, but I forgive those who were confused).

for me it is about the deeper questions about how music is (and if it can be) classified, how it evolves and how you can measure and track a particular artists influence (the most recent thread development).

(I'm really enjoying my self appointed role of thread commentator and mediator btw )

ButterscotchPimp said:

okay i understand this is ur opinion ...i would just urge u 2 really go back in2 prince's cataloge and rethink ur decisions again cause there is more than the list u provided.

but then again, i'll give u the benefit of the doubt by once again asking (don't know if this is the 3rd or 25th time someone has asked u this)..DEFINE FUNK IN YOUR ESTIMATIONS

actually murph,

it sounds like fair point. (and you agreed on the rick james thing didn't you?)

Do you think that The Gap Band, Rick james and Stevie Wonder were influenced by Prince

do you think they were doing something else with funk, different to what prince was doing, but perhaps equally edgy and influential

or that they weren't influential...or that these guys had equal influence for the same reason at around the same time period (a bit of a melting pot)(again, it seems to me that measuring the extent of a persons' influence is going to come down to personal opinion, no matter what the evidence)