To say that funk can not be defined, is to be erroneous. If it can be categorized, then it can be defined.


It's just funk. c'mon. Where should we go for the definition of funk, from the masters of funk and unfortunately.... the music labels.

I AM NOT SAYING THAT I CAN DEFINE FUNK. I have not been exposed to enough of it. This is why I can not, and why the rest of us who struggle with the concept cannot.

I do know hard rock when I hear it, I know country when I hear it, I know pop when I hear it, because I have been exposed to tons of it. That goes for classic rock also. So why should I believe that funk can not be defined. It's not magic.

I don't respect Prince for being funky. I respect him for defining the music of the last half of the eighties, I respect him for not riding his own coat tale and dying in his own backwash, I respect him for reaching out and claiming what is rightfully his and telling the recording industry to go f**k themselves even at the cost of radio exposure, (he is simply doing what all men are supposed to do, claim their own destiny and not be the bitch of the empire), I respect him for all of this, plus for the great music he is again churning out here in the 2000's.

I have no desire to meet him, I have never been to one of his concerts because I idolized him as a teen and I know that is a sin, his verses clouded my eyes from the word of God, so I knew there was a personal danger there for me. I didi continue to enjoy his music, and I do not have that problem now. I hope he doesn't stop touring too soon, I may go and catch a show now that he is a real proffessional. I do think he is as entitled to retire as any of us.

I have no desire to be his friend of work with or for him. I think I would not like him and I am sure he would not like me. He definately could not work for me either. I'd push his ass till he popped and collect as much doe off him as I could.... that's just how business works. But I do respect his ability to network to his fans in a way that keeps them coming back for more each year.

So with all of the ways that I respect him and distant myself from him, NONE of it is because I consider him as the king of funk, or consider him funky. I never had the chance to say funky in any of those diagnosis.

That is the only way I can define my feelings towards the funk reasoning.

this is what wikipedia says about funk:

Funk is an American musical style that originated in the mid- to late-1960s when African American musicians blended soul music, soul jazz and R&B into a rhythmic, danceable new form of music. Funk de-emphasizes melody and harmony, and brings a strong rhythmic groove of electric bass and drums to the foreground. Unlike R&B and soul songs, which had many chord changes, funk songs are often based on an extended vamp on a single chord.

Like much of African inspired music, funk typically consists of a complex groove with rhythm instruments such as electric guitar, electric bass, Hammond organ, and drums playing interlocking rhythms. Funk bands also usually have a horn section of several saxophones, trumpets, and in some cases, a trombone, which plays rhythmic "hits".

Influential African American funk performers include James Brown, Sly and the Family Stone, George Clinton and Parliament-Funkadelic, Curtis Mayfield, The Meters, The Funk Brothers, Bootsy Collins, and Prince. Notable 1970s funk bands included Earth, Wind & Fire, Tower of Power, Average White Band, The Ohio Players, The Commodores, and Kool & the Gang though many of these most famous bands in the genre also played disco and soul extensively. Funk music was a major influence on the development of 1970s disco music and funk samples are used in most styles of house music and hip hop music, and it's also the main influence of Go-Go. Funk even left its mark on New Wave, and its pulse was evident in post punk as well.
_____

Interestingly, the article refers to Prince's music as stripped-down funk.

Prince used a stripped-down instrumentation similar to Rick James, and went on to have as much of an impact on the sound of funk as any one artist since James Brown. Prince combined eroticism, technology, an increasing musical complexity, and an outrageous image and stage show to ultimately create a musical world as ambitious and imaginative as P-Funk or The Beatles. The Time, originally conceived as an opening act for Prince and based on his "Minneapolis sound", hybrid mixture of funk, rock, pop, R&B & new wave. They went on to define their own style of stripped-down funk based on tight musicianship and sexual themes.

Bands that began during the 1970s P-Funk era incorporated some of the uninhibited sexuality of Prince and state-of-the-art technological developments to continue to craft funk hits. Cameo, Zapp, The Gap Band, The Bar-Kays, and The Dazz Band all found their biggest hits in the 80s, but by the latter half of the 80s, funk had lost its commercial impact.

found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w...-down_funk

L4OATheOriginal said:

'September' is a funk song huh? Riiiiight...

savvy said:

Huh? What posts am i "avoiding"? I think half the reason this thread has gotten so long is i've tried to respond to just about everyone?

ButterscotchPimp said:

I agree BP. You proclaim this wasn't a "baiting" type thread, but anytime someone tries to add some levity to the converastion you skip it and fight with graycap or a Funk Newbie that's less apt to have a consistant point. You can't define FUNK and you shouldn't define the org.

reply to my post then talk about how great this BS is!

Again, i think ya'll are confusing me saying some isn't "funk" with something isn't "funky". It's a little confusing i get it, but in my mind there's a distinct difference. "Head" is fo SHO funky. I just don't think of it as a funk song.

L4OATheOriginal said:

'September' is a funk song huh? Riiiiight...

L4OATheOriginal said:

okay. you don't like me. hate's too strong of a word. yes, i know i'm rude and abrasive. i won't sign off on dense and closed minded, because i don't think i'm either. i think i have a realistic view of Prince. and it just seems (and NOT just to me) that being a realistic fan is not welcome by a lot of "fams" in here. it's like anytime anyone comes in with an opinion that falls short of "Prince is GOD" is POUNCED on. so yeah, i'm a little quick with my wit when i feel like i'm in a situation like that.

BUT, this thread is a classic example of me at my most rational, calm and diplomatic. I don't think i've been necessarily rude on THIS thread.

And i'm sorry, but when i hear what i think is kak behavior then i gotta speak on it. That's not going to change.

ButterscotchPimp said:

Again...u seem to be switching up your argument to suit your own purpose when people call u out on the shakiness of your initial statement...

This is what u originally said:

"Prince isn't that "funky". Not in the purest definition of the genre. Sure he likes to throw the word around, but in the PUREST sense of the genre he's not even taken that seriously."

Now I don't know about u but I think that's pushing it...

There are plenty of "funky" songs that are in Prince's songwriting arsenal...The trouble is u have some antiquated view of what funk constitutes...It's as if u have narrowed it down to George, Bootsy and Sly as being the only types of funk...Prince's funk doesn't fit your ideals because he represents the new wave of funk...

Let's put it like this....Songs like "Head," "The Stick" (the Time), "Controversy," "777-9311," "DMSR," and "Lady Cab Driver," were sparse (something very new in funk) and leaned heavily on the synthezier and drum machines rather than the traditional horns and band vibe that was the hallmark of the funk sound...this was revolutionary and quite a shock...to the point where other "funk" acts had to follow the new sound (Cameo, Bar-Kays, George Clinton)...

Just reading through your various posts in this thread it is clear that u prefer a certain type of funk: traditional, big body, or straight-ahead...

This much was understood when u shot down "Scarlet Pussy" as not being a "funk" song, which is laughable...Your reasoning was even more puzzling: because it was simplistic, it wasn't funk....LOL

To me this shows that your own limited view of funk is the main problem here...Because the "funk" giants that count (Sly, George and Bootsy) have all been on record in their praise for Prince's "funk" as well as his "rock," his "new wave," and his other genre-mixtures.... Again, it's one thing to make a post about Prince not being a "funk God"...That is entirely different and u may have a point with that because Prince hybrid sound meant that he never stayed with one sound for too long and that often experimented to the point where his sound was a stew of styles...But saying Prince is a joke in the funk genre is silly controversial posting at best...There's enough of it in his work to dismiss your point...
[Edited 8/21/08 22:44pm]

SAying Prince si not funk with the argument that his sound is sonically far from james and p funk IS LIKE saying Nirvana is not a rock band because it does not have the sound elements of Led Zeppelin or Elvis Presley. So by analogy its BS.

PoorGoo813 said:

All hail the new King in Town! That's the most precise definition in support of Prince's Funk status I have read! I'm a call U teacher - Cuz you sure know how to school a mofo!!

ButterscotchPimp said:

Again...u seem to be switching up your argument to suit your own purpose when people call u out on the shakiness of your initial statement...

This is what u originally said:

"Prince isn't that "funky". Not in the purest definition of the genre. Sure he likes to throw the word around, but in the PUREST sense of the genre he's not even taken that seriously."

Now I don't know about u but I think that's pushing it...

There are plenty of "funky" songs that are in Prince's songwriting arsenal...The trouble is u have some antiquated view of what funk constitutes...It's as if u have narrowed it down to George, Bootsy and Sly as being the only types of funk...Prince's funk doesn't fit your ideals because he represents the new wave of funk...

Let's put it like this....Songs like "Head," "The Stick" (the Time), "Controversy," "777-9311," "DMSR," and "Lady Cab Driver," were sparse (something very new in funk) and leaned heavily on the synthezier and drum machines rather than the traditional horns and band vibe that was the hallmark of the funk sound...this was revolutionary and quite a shock...to the point where other "funk" acts had to follow the new sound (Cameo, Bar-Kays, George Clinton)...

Just reading through your various posts in this thread it is clear that u prefer a certain type of funk: traditional, big body, or straight-ahead...

This much was understood when u shot down "Scarlet Pussy" as not being a "funk" song, which is laughable...Your reasoning was even more puzzling: because it was simplistic, it wasn't funk....LOL

To me this shows that your own limited view of funk is the main problem here...Because the "funk" giants that count (Sly, George and Bootsy) have all been on record in their praise for Prince's "funk" as well as his "rock," his "new wave," and his other genre-mixtures.... Again, it's one thing to make a post about Prince not being a "funk God"...That is entirely different and u may have a point with that because Prince hybrid sound meant that he never stayed with one sound for too long and that often experimented to the point where his sound was a stew of styles...But saying Prince is a joke in the funk genre is silly controversial posting at best...There's enough of it in his work to dismiss your point...
[Edited 8/21/08 22:44pm]

It must be a cold day in hell because I actually agree with OP.

ButterscotchPimp said:

I agree BP. You proclaim this wasn't a "baiting" type thread, but anytime someone tries to add some levity to the converastion you skip it and fight with graycap or a Funk Newbie that's less apt to have a consistant point. You can't define FUNK and you shouldn't define the org.

reply to my post then talk about how great this BS is!

Rev said:

here is my problem with this logic, if funk is not definable, then it is not real.

The problem is that funk may be a lot like love. There are different shades of love, but all are definable.

I'm not saying that is so... but maybe possible.

Earlier we defined HEAD as a funky song, I would not say that HEAD is funky in the least. I would not even call rock hard in a funky place, a funky song.

I would say that batdance has a funky measure in it.
I would say that lady cab driver may be a nasty taste of funk.
I would say that computer blue could be borderline funky.
I don't believe that there is one funky song on AWIAD.
I do think that boys and girls could be a funky song, and might even be funk.
If I was your girlfriend? funky.
Alphabet street, the yeah yeah chant is funky, but the song is not.
[Edited 8/21/08 19:20pm]

hollywooddove said:

Hmmm. Well i wouldn't agree with most of your specific takes, i see what you're going for and again it seems that a lot of people definitions of what they think "funk" is are drastically different.

ButterscotchPimp said:

Again...u seem to be switching up your argument to suit your own purpose when people call u out on the shakiness of your initial statement...

This is what u originally said:

"Prince isn't that "funky". Not in the purest definition of the genre. Sure he likes to throw the word around, but in the PUREST sense of the genre he's not even taken that seriously."

Now I don't know about u but I think that's pushing it...

There are plenty of "funky" songs that are in Prince's songwriting arsenal...The trouble is u have some antiquated view of what funk constitutes...It's as if u have narrowed it down to George, Bootsy and Sly as being the only types of funk...Prince's funk doesn't fit your ideals because he represents the new wave of funk...

Let's put it like this....Songs like "Head," "The Stick" (the Time), "Controversy," "777-9311," "DMSR," and "Lady Cab Driver," were sparse (something very new in funk) and leaned heavily on the synthezier and drum machines rather than the traditional horns and band vibe that was the hallmark of the funk sound...this was revolutionary and quite a shock...to the point where other "funk" acts had to follow the new sound (Cameo, Bar-Kays, George Clinton)...

Just reading through your various posts in this thread it is clear that u prefer a certain type of funk: traditional, big body, or straight-ahead...

This much was understood when u shot down "Scarlet Pussy" as not being a "funk" song, which is laughable...Your reasoning was even more puzzling: because it was simplistic, it wasn't funk....LOL

To me this shows that your own limited view of funk is the main problem here...Because the "funk" giants that count (Sly, George and Bootsy) have all been on record in their praise for Prince's "funk" as well as his "rock," his "new wave," and his other genre-mixtures.... Again, it's one thing to make a post about Prince not being a "funk God"...That is entirely different and u may have a point with that because Prince hybrid sound meant that he never stayed with one sound for too long and that often experimented to the point where his sound was a stew of styles...But saying Prince is a joke in the funk genre is silly controversial posting at best...There's enough of it in his work to dismiss your point...
[Edited 8/21/08 22:44pm]

ButterscotchPimp said:

i never said i disliked u either and not every prince fan thinks he's a GOD. i'll b the 1st 2 say i'm sick of his ass doing purple rain live hell i have even walked out of a concert when he started doing it so not everything prince does is golden 2 me, but i understand it's all part of the musical journey. if anything i take offense 2 is being labeled a kool aid when someone doesn't know me or my likes.

but if u continue 2 call those that support prince and feel they r "kak's" then u should b at least offended or surprise if they come right back at u with whatever language or sterotypes they throw at u.

but music is like this, what u deem is funky may not b 2 some and what others think is funky u may not. it's all good but i just caution u on how u come at folks. (especially new yorkers!)

Ah. Well, where you'd say i've switched my argument to suit my own purpose I think i've been pretty consistent throughout this whole thing. Now where my initial statement was pretty harsh and attention grabbing, the basic truth that i was getting at is still there. I maintained (and still maintain) from a pure definition of the genre of FUNK, Prince isn't that funky. Which is DIFFERENT from simply being funky. Now the conversation has evolved with a lot of people making the point that Prince created his own "type of funk". Which again, i don't necessarily agree with

Sure my initial statement was "pushing it". That was on purpose. I still maintain the he isn't taken seriously in the funk camp at all. I KNOW he isn't. Now some have made that out to be jealousy, which i don't agree with. There's always purists in every genre. Who live it, breathe it, and pay their dues to be a part of it. And when someone comes along, and doesn't really do that and dabbles in elements of the music they love and somehow gets credit for being a "master" i don't think that goes over very well. Now i made that generic because i think you could apply that to jazz and blues as well. Do cats that played with Miles Davis respect Kenny G as an artist? No.Now again, my initial statement while "harsh" and "pushing it" wasn't meant to imply that Prince isn't "funky" in his own right and doesn't have tons of "funky songs" in his arsenal. You say my view of funk is "antiquated" and i'd retort that it's "traditional". Which is why the majority of this thread has revolved around trying to nail down a definition of the genre. Of course George, Bootsy and Sly would be the benchmarks in funk for me, but again trying to say that Prince was the "new wave of funk" is pushing it.

There's been new funk since George (granted not a ton of it) i just wouldn't categorize Prince in that category. Prince is his own category. Now where you might find this whole discussion "silly" and dismiss what i've tried to do here, but again i'm not the only one who feels this way, and we really haven't been able to come up with a LOT of Prince songs that can even be classified as "pure funk".

Shorty said:

Wow. Loves Sly and doesn't like Prince?

I don't get that at all. Gimme a sec to unwind after the drive home and i'll try and think of something.....

B4 y'all get any further with this convo/argument.....just a question.
What the hell is a KAK?

I'm not on this site all that much, so enlighten me.

Again...u seem to be going by your own limited view of what funk is...I can tell you that I too have access to some pretty "funky" heavy hitters/legends...And when ever the conversation about Prince comes up they admit that Prince's brand of "funk" was indeed legit, while at the same time they make it a point to say that it presented problems to the old guard...The problem that some of your friends may have with Prince's "funk" is that it basically signaled end to the "funk" that kept them in business...It ended a lot of careers...

Shit, I would be shocked too if I heard "Head" in 1980 or "The Stick" if I was a musician whose idea of funk was 12 piece band with horns and a sound that was full and a groove that seemed more jam oriented...Prince, however changed that idea, by only keeping the bass and guitar and basically making the synthesizer and Linn drum the bedrock of the groove.."...Again, I think u might want to come down to earth on this one...It's not rocket science...




Pushing it for who?...lol...When you see all the great funk bands throw away their horns and start using synthesizers and drum machines in the early '80s following Prince's lead there's no other way to call it...The irony is Prince was not a "funk" artist (Though it certainly was a foundation for him just as rock and pop)...His sound was all over the place...But when he did pull out the "funk" the funk community took notice...Cameo's Larry Blackmon saw the hand writing on the wall (it's no secret why he paired down the group and started using synthesizers and drum machines by 81-82)...George saw it as well, which can be heard on his early solo albums (which were really P-Funk albums).."Atomic Dogg" is George's nod to the new funk that Prince was kicking out...

You see what u have to understand is Prince is a tricky act to categorize...Stop letting your antiquated view of funk cloud your judgement...You sound like the traditional jazz heads of the 20's and '30's calling out Dizzy and Charlie Parker because they felt be-bop wasn't "pure jazz"...Such a statement was born out of jealousy and fear...And I would bet that some of your "funk" friends come from that same school...
[Edited 8/22/08 8:31am]

ButterscotchPimp said:

Again...u seem to be going by your own limited view of what funk is...I can tell you that I too have access to some pretty "funky" heavy hitters/legends...And when ever the conversation about Prince comes up they admit that Prince's brand of "funk" was indeed legit, while at the same time they make it a point to say that it presented problems to the old guard...The problem that some of your friends may have with Prince's "funk" is that it basically signaled end to the "funk" that kept them in business...It ended a lot of careers...

Shit, I would be shocked too if I heard "Head" in 1980 or "The Stick" if I was a musician whose idea of funk was 12 piece band with horns and a sound that was full and a groove that seemed more jam oriented...Prince, however changed that idea, by only keeping the bass and guitar and basically making the synthesizer and Linn drum the bedrock of the groove.."...Again, I think u might want to come down to earth on this one...It's not rocket science...




Pushing it for who?...lol...When you see all the great funk bands throw away their horns and start using synthesizers and drum machines in the early '80s following Prince's lead there's no other way to call it...The irony is Prince was not a "funk" artist (Though it certainly was a foundation for him just as rock and pop)...His sound was all over the place...But when he did pull out the "funk" the funk community took notice...Cameo's Larry Blackmon saw the hand writing on the wall (it's no secret why he paired down the group and started using synthesizers and drum machines by 81-82)...George saw it as well, which can be heard on his early solo albums (which were really P-Funk albums).."Atomic Dogg" is George's nod to the new funk that Prince was kicking out...

ButterscotchPimp said:

You see what u have to understand is Prince is a tricky act to categorize...Stop letting your antiquated view of funk cloud your judgement...You sound like the traditional jazz heads of the 20's and '30's calling out Dizzy and Charlie Parker because they felt be-bop wasn't "pure jazz"...Such a statement was born out of jealousy and fear...And I would bet that some of your "funk" friends come from that same school...
[Edited 8/22/08 8:31am]

murph said:

on point as usual. i guess if u can handle mad max u can handle anyone lol