Listening to Prince makes you a bottom?

Really enjoyed ur reply namepeace. To be fair I did only say I guess he mite prefer Prince being a hip hop head, but grant you it doesn't exclude him from liking Beatles or Dylan music. I do maintain that hip hop radio don't play much Dylan or Beatles tho,lol.

I'm still very curious why he mentioned his friends job, as it had zero relevence to his post. I again ask wud he have put in () that his friends day job was flipping burgers? I somehow doubt it, but i'm as likely to be wrong as right, just seemed reli odd.

I'm no one to tell him what to post, ur spot on there. His right to his post is central to everything I hold dear, as is my right to reply. I'm not saying he's wrong, i'm inviting him to question his friend's quick remark based on hearing Rainbow Children and making such a sweeping statement as he did.

My own tastes go from 1930's jazz to white stripes.I won't bore you with a list,lol. All i'm really trying to do is invite him or anyone else who makes such a comment to look deeper into other artists as i don't personally feel there are such finite statements in music as his ER doctor friend made, it seemed narrow minded and not thought out. That's all.

Again, loved your reply.

prettylies said:

As much as I really dug your interesting post.

I was being more 's Advocate than anything else. But we agree that "depth" is an extremely complex issue, especially vis-a-vis other artists and other perspectives.

I am impressed by your analysis and especially your collection. I trend towards your tastes, actually, with a few variations, maybe. Not into Dylan and Zappa, but there's always time.

In case you're new, welcome to the org, BTW! Hope to see you in the Non-Prince Music Forum.

n/p.

did i also mention that we were drinking till 5 am and just enjoyed a big a big ass NZ doobie!

c'mon i just thought id share that wee tale

its nice to have somebody at work to discuss prince,donny,stevie-it makes an extrtemly refrshing change!!!!

normally i get at work-"hes a faggot..hes shit..hes on heroin..whats that noise...he's gay..WHAT???? hes still recording-i love purple rain etc"

one day i stuck on miles davis's kind of blue and the response was"whats that? post office music.....?? "

i digress-my post was merely an anecdote!

namepeace said:

an enjoyable wee debate you two had!-its cool to see that this site welcomes such elequant debate!

jonylawson said:

ahem..then again i do work in an emergency room so maybes i shouldnt be playing the funk at all.....

namepeace said:

All very true and well stated.

But I think because Prince is still taking breaths here on planet earth, saying and doing stupid things (translation: expressing opinions different than mine), and writing silly throw-away tracks like "Poom Poom", he doesn't always get heard completely for the serious artist he can sometimes be. I'm not saying that you're doing that, just that in general I think that it's sometimes true.

And always being serious is just a drag. Sometimes I just want to move (“Erotic City”, “Chelsea Rodgers”, “The One You Wanna See”), so then that becomes more important than anything.

You truly can dance your way free of some problems, some of the time. Other times you might need something truly wise to unravel.

He can be utterly serious when it comes to music, even if his album artwork, opinions, maneuvers, letdowns, etc. sometimes overwhelm the quality therein.

It's funny, because we as humans not only cut way more slack for people who have died, but probably even too much slack. We forget that they were human, missed concerts due to drugs, said stupid things, perhaps that they were even physically abusive at times.

But over the years all the negative seems to fall away like so many leaves until nothing but the artist remains. Perhaps that’s how it should always be?

For me "N.E.W.S" almost reaches the grand territory of Duke Ellington's masterpiece "Black, Brown & Beige" (48-minute suite). But if some can't hear the depth without falling asleep, I can't very well lend them my ears for the week.

And instrumental music is always a bit weird, because it's only as serious and "deep" as the listener. We have no idea what the writer might have been thinking while he or she was composing, unless they happen to hip us to it or we happen to surmise it correctly.

They might even be thinking about sex with that pretty "Brown Penny", but we'll probably never know for sure.

And particularly when we're talking about religion, such as with the amazing "A Love Supreme", I would argue that it's always simpler/superior to go wordless, as then not only can the listener place his or her own values on the music, the composer himself or herself can change with the times.

Either that or we could just listen to the music as an expression of that person at that time, rather than words we must dutifully adopt.

And, again, the artist might have even wanted you to think about "adopting", but that doesn't mean you have to listen.

Put your own values on it. Let your own story be played out.

**Can't Edit, Edit.**
[Edited 9/27/07 0:14am]

jonylawson said:

Your friend paid Prince a nice compliment and all, but it wasn't deep.

What he said, essentially, is this:

"The Stones, The Beatles, those guys are deep. But Prince, he's super duper infinity deep!"

To the googol power times a million plus one!

jonylawson said:

Your post inspired a good debate. I'm always happy to be wrong when I am, and I enjoy discussing things with other people who don't have to resort to personal attacks or just the plain old...Prince is GOD and everyone and everything else should bow down and kiss his feet,lol.

I too have had similar responses to your usual ones when discussing Prince with friends, basically ever since I became a fan at 14/15. Even in his "hey day" sales wise in the U.K, I seldom came across other fans and the gay, wierd cracks have been hurled my way about Prince right from 1984.

I think tho, because I just love music in general, the same things that bugged me about people being closed minded to Prince then, bug me now when some Prince fans on here appear so closed minded about everyone else except his purpleness.

The 5am doobie part does throw a brand new light onto what you'd wrote though, and I realise now where you were coming from,lol. I had maybe thought it was another one of those "my friend said to me Prince is cool so he must be right" threads. I know now that wasn't ur angle so I was wrong there.

I can recommend Lennon's Plastic Ono Band C.D to ur friend while drinking and smoking if he wants to experience the raw, real, stripped down soul and emotions of a human being in complete primal therapy honesty. That goes as deep as anything i've ever heard from Prince (dare I say DEEPER). I'm sure people could come up with dozens of other great soul searching, deep albums from over the years. hell i'm sure you know dozens yourself.

You've insipired me tho to re-listen to the Rainbow Children, always one of my very least fave albums (as an artistic work it's a little too one dimensional for me subject wise, actually I just plain don't like it much). However, I'll need to re-visit the album with the required "tools" to maybe get deep with it

Thanks for ur post and your follow ups on it, sounds a cool 5am lisening experience you 2 had.

Brendan said:[quote]

namepeace said:

Agreed. There is no doubt that his throwaways, and even moreso, his image, have obscured his true legacy as an artist. Eric Leeds, I think said it best in Down Beat years ago. (paraphrasing) "Beneath the high heels, lace and makeup lies a great musician."



Agreed. I love him just as much for "Good Love," "Love or $," et al. as for "The Cross" or "Reflection."



I don't doubt that. If these great artists were completely somber, few would listen to them. Would Ellington have been Ellington without Dimuendo and Crescendo In Blue from Newport '56? Would 'Trane have been 'Trane without "Countdown" or Miles Miles without "If I Were A Bell"?



Ideally, we take the artists for who they were, and take into account their inevitable imperfections when assessing their legacies.



I think, to the extent the art outlives the artist, I think the former obscures the latter.



Indeed. It's all a matter of perspective. I hear Peter Gabriel's Passion and I see it as an answer to A Love Supreme.



Well . . . "depth" is a tricky word. To me, it doesn't necessarily convey ONE emotion in the context of music. It can refer to many different emotions that could be tapped with each listen. And that's the central beauty of art: as you mentioned, the producer's state of mind is often irrelevant to the consumer's reaction to the production.




Well stated. The work is not confined to context of words.



again, well stated.

I don´t get this statement. IF it means that he´s got "the most" music than it is true. Definately he has the most RELEASED stuff.

Yeah, Prince is better than everyone else.

I personally think Prince has a very nice bottom!

Let's see if I can come up with a better response regarding how "deep" Prince is.

His music is so complex and he's done pretty much every genre imaginable. AND makes them sound great.
~ but I believe that's called talent.

Each of his albums tells a different story. Each song he writes is a part of him and within them, you'll find out the "condition of his heart" at the time of its production. Some songs take you on a journey into his deep subconscious (Computer Blue) while others take you on an emotional rollercoaster good and/or bad (Purple Rain, Gold, The Dance). He makes you feel what he's feeling (or at least that's how it is for me).

As for the man himself, he's a puzzle wrapped in a riddle, however that story goes. He's completely different onstage & offstage. His onstage persona takes on the personality of his work and brings everything within him out into the open. I hadn't seen anyone else with a stage presence like his before and that's why he'd gotten my attention in the first place. Just took me a while to react on it.

But you can listen to his songs over and over and find something new each time. And depending on where my mind is, his albums can come off all kinds of ways. Come is supposedly a depressing time for him, but last night, it was actually refreshing and made me smile.

How he is compared 2 other artists of his calibar, I can't really say at this time. But compared to anything I've heard before, he's like no other. He is The Ultimate ride in the music business.

langebleu said:

That is ABSOLUTELY the worst time to be a Prince fan. You can sing the Wedding Feast all you like, but assless pants? Hmmmmm.....no.

jonylawson said:

Your friend is an ass-kisser.....

I am totally lost. where is there a bottom when it comes to The Beatles? What does he mean? That sounds like one of those deep new-agey things to say but doesn't mean much.

no bottom?

The 3 performers he mentioned all started in the early 60s... so they have a good decade and a half of bottom to gather! lol

Seriously, what did he mean?

DreamyPopRoyalty said:

I'm a touch puzzled about your post!! In what way have you presented a better response on how deep Prince is...than any other person who's already posted? As a fan of Prince for probably a few years before you were even created, and probably know 150+ songs of his inside out, word for word that you may never have even heard yet, I find what you've just written to be without much real substance.

I (often) hear your own interpretation on Prince as a human, on your very much self created musings as to the man himself and what kind of person you imagine him to be, and what you think his work means to him, but that's nothing to do with how deep Prince may or may not be. Your post for me at least, provided little clarity, but showed an insight into your own "world of Prince".

I applaud you for finding Prince earlier this year, I respect your right fully to post whatever you want. I also have read some pretty nasty things written about your posts that seemed overly personal and that's unfair. But again, I also enjoy my right to challenge, and as yet, i've purposefully held back on doing so with you on many dozens of your musings on Prince the person, as your so new to him and are obviously excited about your discovery. I'd only ask that you respect that some of us 20+ year fans of the man's work..WE GET IT,LOL. We get Prince's music, honest, we've "got it" for 20-30 years.

What none of us know, including you...is the MAN. You don't know how much of Prince he puts into his work. You don't know where he was at in his spiritual journey during the making of any particular album. With some artists, yea they do promotion, interviews, write books and we KNOW a little about what was going on for them, but with Prince, you don't know the man personally and the post had no relevence to me in helping me clarify how deep he is?

It may be your wording sometimes, but I feel a fan of some odd months, announcing that you are going to try to write a "better" explanation for all us poor not knowing folks of how deep Prince is, to be slightly arrogant.

I invite you, politely, and with no hint of malice, to maybe accept that we all experience Prince and his music in our own unique way, and therefore, we all have our clarity on him, personal and unique to us. No one else can tell us "how it is" with Prince...none of us can. I think some people were asking what the post itself meant in relation to Princ's depth...not a definitive account of the man and how he works...as we all have our own unique wisdom on that subject already. personal and without the need for outside clarity

Hope you take this in the spirit in which it's meant.

prettylies said:

hmm... this is probably one of the nicest critical posts I've ever gotten.

haha... but actually, (this might not make a huge difference)... but when I said a "better" explanation, I was referring to my first reply to this post. I wasn't trying 2 belittle anyone.
I've found a lot lately that I've been re-examining the way I see him... I'm not sure if even I know anymore. Things have gotten really confusing since I returned here after a long vacation (my computer crashed)... the world kept turning and my posts seem to come out all wrong these days.
Maybe its cuz all my friends have left... or maybe I've just gotten really bad. Like the old saying, "they haven't changed, u have."
... at least on my own, I knew where I was going with Prince. Now, I feel like I've been trying so hard to please everybody.

I think I'm just killing myself here these days

a Well...
that is deep!

dumbass said:

This analysis is far "deeper" than what this emergency doctor/DJ said.

Of course we've seen Prince hit rock-bottom, by using rap artists like Tony M., and writing "Slave" on his face, among other public disasters. Unfortunately, I don't think Prince has produced anything in the last ten years to make him musically relevant. His success has been based on dredging up old material (which is fine by me) for his typically superb concert performances.

""e've seen Prince hit rock-bottom, by using rap artists like Tony M., and writing "Slave" on his face, among other public disasters. Unfortunately, I don't think Prince has produced anything in the last ten years to make him musically relevant""

hmm this is where we completly disagree.

the tony m arguement is a best a lazy one-yes we all know the story of how prince was CHASING a trend as opposed to creating one but hell tony m gets a hard time-let me redress the balance

WILLING AND ABLE?

DEUCE AND A QUARTER?

GETT OFF?

JOHNNY?

SEXY MF?...come on..disasters?

okay the SLAVE thing? probably the bravest thing a commercially viable artist has EVER done....and as proven in the last few years -who's laughing now???

that "slave' era is worthy of a whole dissitation rather than a few clumsy sentences from me

musically releveant???

to me THE RAINBOW CHILDREN...C-NOTE..N.E.W.S represent an evolution of an artist to a higher musical plane(and believe me after listening to stuff like HIGH i was worried that he would forever be chasing the top 40)

i may be wrong but i imagine a whole heap of prince fans breathed a collective sigh of relief when he dropped TRC..i wish i had eric leeds synopsis of the ONA tour"growing old with prince" and how his artistry had returned without a care for any charts,trends etcan artist being completly true to his vision.

SHIT! ive never written this much before lol!

namepeace said:

I certainly know of Peter Gabriel’s work, but nothing about the “Passion”.

I’m going to steal this, because that’s what I do. Besides, I wouldn’t get very far relying exclusively on my on perspective.

namepeace said:

As you are well aware, eventually they would have been heard, but it sure sped the process up creating something that left them dancing on the tables.

And that’s primarily why I don’t wait for either the popularity crowd or the textbook intellectuals to tell me what’s great.

I frankly don’t have that type of time.

Duke Ellington was one of the finest musical talents in history way back before 1943 when his art was called “overreaching” for a jazz composer by the classical snobs upon hearing his "Black, Brown & Beige" at Carnegie Hall for the first time.

Yes, even smart people can be utterly ignorant.

No, they weren’t ignorant because they disliked something, they were ignorant because of how they disliked it. No one or no sound needed to be put in their place.

Of course now that jazz has become elevated on the same level of classical music there’s still plenty of newer sounds to discriminate against.

I mean it was great that jazz was “discovered” slowly by the larger culture, in part by “Ellington at Newport”, but of course a tree still makes a sound even when there is no one around to hear it (or write about it).
[Edited 9/28/07 22:41pm]

madhouseman said:

i'm with you madhouseman. doobies have a way of m-a-g-n-i-f-y-i-n-g
perspectives in the moment. to all who have replied i'm enjoying the
discussion and agree with many points; however, edifying P to the point
of "no bottom" and higher than all other 'artists that have come before him'
i think is a bit skewed.

honestly, i'm not that familiar with Beethoven, but i believe he's regarded
as the crem-de-la-crem of his time period. maybe if we put P in the context of
"popular" or R&R i would quickly agree P is in a CLASS by himself.

finally, i think the terminology "hitting the bottom" is very problematic for me.
all these artists have tremendous bodies of work in which
some periods are more creative, colorful, poetic, insightful, etc. than others.
perhaps i can venture to say that P's work consistently delivers depth on multiple levels,
some albums more than others. i think he's just a deep, spiritual dude, in
addition to his other talents.

i want to mention Stevie Wonder's 'Secret Life of Plants.'
it seems very underrated, certainly one of his least commercial releases (AS A WHOLE),
and i find it to be one of the DEEPEST albums i own.
i particularly feel this way because as i listen to it, i remember he is blind.
and i feel he is communicating something to the non-blind about an incredible aspect of nature thru his "eyes."

jonylawson said:

This is great - I love it!

prettylies said:

I completely agree with your friend. I've been been immersed in P's music for 30 years and I'm still discovering gems, unreleased brilliance, transformative live concerts and rediscovered classics.

I know I will be probably bashed on this site with all the reverence for blue eyed knockoffs, but I think the music of the Beatles is overrated. I understand the phenomenom, importance of cultural timing and their historical importance but I think their catalog is filled with simple Little Richard/Chuck Berry knockoffs, corny simplistic pop songs and average (at best) musicianship. And don't get my started on their solo work which can be so laughable and unbearable (Travelling Wilburys, Ringo, most of Paul's).

Bob Dylan is a brilliant lyricist but you cannot compare him to Prince is any musical category.

Stevie W. has one of the most creative periods in popular music history (1970-76) but he has gotten so lazy over the last 20 years.

Minneapolis music critic wrote a great article that calls P the most complex rock era musical force ever! I agree.

Brendan said:

Don't know where you're going with this, but I was just discussing the merits of the work itself. "Depth" in this context requires using all of the emotions of the human experience in one's work. Miles and Trane didn't play the lighter stuff because they wanted to be heard, per se. They played it because it was part of what they were as artists and people. Regardless of whether their work was heard by the masses or just one "mister."




When any artist breaks away from what made them popular, they're ridiculed. Then re-evaluated. Then praised by those same critics who put them down initially. For example, the praise Parade is getting lately really is funny given the fact that a lot of Prince fans remember how badly he was put down for making that record.



Agreed.



Oh yeah. But I think you're making AND only slightly missing the import of the original point, if ever so slightly. What I'm talking about is the artist who displays a great range of emotions increases his or her depth. Regardless of whether the songs are heard by the masses or just two people in a used record store. As you point out, whether the work is heard makes no difference as to whether it increases the depth of an artist.

jonylawson said:

namepeace said:

Just riffing off of your mention of people getting noticed and the 28-choruses (or whatever it was) of blowing by Paul Gonsalves on “Diminuendo and Crescendo in Blue”.

I fully understand and agree with your point about “depth”. The more diversity of soul, the better.

I don’t think these guys necessarily created to be popular, but sooner or later something was bound to stick with a larger audience, like dancing on top of the tables or Clint Eastwood and other white celebrities shining their light on this obvious greatness.

namepeace said:

Surely. There was an inordinate amount of criticism at the time, which may have in part lead to “The Black Album” rebuttal.

Now it’s obviously the glory years. Clarity in greater numbers always seems to come with at least 10 or 20 years (or a death) in the rearview.

But I’m guessing that Prince ultimately didn’t want to releases art that was created in part due to people’s ignorant view of his “blackness”.

Of course if this statement had turned out as stunning as “SOTT”, I’m sure that he would have found a way to resolve any such lingering apprehension.

namepeace said:

Yes, popularity or lack of it has no bearing whatsoever.

This was one of those rare moments where I understood completely.

I was just conversing; vamping off the original theme like a jazz musician, not clouding or debating the original point.