JesseDezz said:

Stop the violence, yo!

But seriously, it's all good, bro! We differ and that's cool. I respect your opinion as well.

And by the way, how many flies have you sodomized today ?

sarkozyiszeman said:

That sounds painful

Don't be a smartass, prick. If you can't engage in an intelligent manner, don't post at all.

Lothan said:

Oh God, no, we're back to influences !

Do you know one great artist who has not been massively influenced by others ?
Uh ? It is just your lack of musical culture that prevents you from linking hendrix or Richard to the artists who have influenced them int he first place. That's all.
[Edited 9/11/07 0:25am]

MuthaFunka said:

How weird ! When Clapton or Parker call Prince a genius, they know shit about what they're talking about.
But when a small exceprt from a very old interview by Joni Mitchell states he is not, it is suddenly true.
I really hate FAMS but I really dislike HATERS as well.

When he is dead, you'll be all crying like babies and there will be no debate about the term Genius cuz he is a GENIUS. Prince is music.

Some of you need to seem him in a crazy aftershow and you'll come here to apologize.

Now talking about Mitchell, as much as I love he rmusic, she is not a genius. prince has a far wider range of skills than she has. I don't even know where to start !
[Edited 9/11/07 0:33am]

Cripes!!!

Seven pages? Man I'm glad I chose not to weigh in on this thread! I was considering a post early on, but the idea of any kind of civility amoung posters got chucked out the window rather fast.

Anyways... as I've said in previous threads there is absolutely no need to defend Prince. If you dig him fantastic. Why does a differing opinion cause all this lashing out? Is it really all that important in the overall scheme of things?

I'm all for a heathty discussion as long as it doesn't degenerate into royal rant with a bunch of bashing & name calling & other bits of nastiness going on.
It's uncalled for.

That being said, I'd like to think that if you choose to champion Prince in these type of squabbles you'd be prepared to offer something rational and concrete in his defense. (Again, not that he needs defending)

I'm not even going to offer an opinion on the topic. Just my 2 cents on the climate of this thread. I'm glad to see it finally chilling out.

-K-

MuthaFunka said:

I hear 'ya. All these discussions do is make me go back and listen to my Prince records and remember what made me become a fan/want to play guitar in the first place

sarkozyiszeman said:

the word genius itself is open to interpretation. why does one have to be a hater because they don't agree with you? Prince is NOT music and if that isn't the most familicious shit I've read on these boards, I don't know what is.

Me, a Prince hater. dude, you have no idea.

Lothan said:

A hater is a massive Prince fan who is desperate to look cool by spreading messages across boards saying that P is not such a good musician, not such good performer, not such a good composer etc...
It just does not look cool to say Prince is a genius but oh yeah, Joni Mitchell obviously is. When she opens her mouth, it means something whereas Miles Davis,Clapton or Parker know shit about Prince and what he is worth.

yes Prince is music as much as Charlie Parker or Ellington were. I believe music is a curse when you're Miles Davis, Prince or Parker.
These guys's brains were (are) invaded by music, melodies, rythms all the time (read Miles Davis autobiography + there is an interview where Prince states he hears music all the time and that he has the feeling his heart follows the beat whe he is on the piano to the point he gets really angry if he is troubled by another sound).

I had this discussion with Michael Bland and Kenny Garret and they both told me they've seen many similarities between Prince and Miles Davis regarding music. Music is an obsession to them, they both told me they have an extraordinary ear and correct their own musicians several days after a gig, that they remember any detail, anything that went wrong. They play music like they do breath and find it very difficult when people around them cannot connect to this aspect of their personnality.

It is so funny when you talk to these guys about Prince musical skills. They have no problem qualifying Prince as a genius. They know contrary to people like you that what Prince has achieved musically is massive, that very few people release several great albums during their life. Add to that the amazing tours Prince has done : DM, 1999, PR, Parade, SOTT, Lovesexy, DP and ONA. Add to that the aftershows where sometimes people are so amazed they think Prince is an alien sent to earth to kick our butts. Add to that the versatility, the producer skills, the arranger.

So, ok, Prince has released some very average music during his carrer as well. He has been really poor on stage sometimes as well.
Just to remind everybody that what they thought was easy was in fact really hard work.

Miles Davis used to talk about genius and skills and used to say the genius is to rehearse 15 hours a day when he was asked why black people were so gifted. That's what people does. he dedicates all his life to music.

Prince is music. He will rehearse all day, then will record a new tune in a studio, then he will play his gig, then he will play an amazing aftershow. After four hours of sleep, he asks for recordings of his last performances and study everything he has done.

People find it funny when he sings "I love you baby more not like I love this guitar". Behind the joke,he is so damn serious in fact.

So you say some "Prince fan", mentionning those who like everything he does, those who think his farts smell good. I'm not one of them. I'm a big music lover who has grown in a family of professional classical musicians.
One day, my own dad came to me with 1999 when I was just 11 and he told me : "listen to this guy. he's gonna be right up there with Miles Davis and James Brown". I did not know he was going to change my life...

Lothan said:

A hater is a massive Prince fan who is desperate to look cool by spreading messages across boards saying that P is not such a good musician, not such good performer, not such a good composer etc...
It just does not look cool to say Prince is a genius but oh yeah, Joni Mitchell obviously is. When she opens her mouth, it means something whereas Miles Davis,Clapton or Parker know shit about Prince and what he is worth.

yes Prince is music as much as Charlie Parker or Ellington were. I believe music is a curse when you're Miles Davis, Prince or Parker.
These guys's brains were (are) invaded by music, melodies, rythms all the time (read Miles Davis autobiography + there is an interview where Prince states he hears music all the time and that he has the feeling his heart follows the beat whe he is on the piano to the point he gets really angry if he is troubled by another sound).
I had this discussion with Michael Bland and Kenny Garret and they both told me they've seen many similarities between Prince and Miles Davis regarding music. Music is an obsession to them, they both told me they have an extraordinary ear and correct their own musicians several days after a gig, that they remember any detail, anything that went wrong. They play music like they do breath and find it very difficult when people around them cannot connect to this aspect of their personnality.

It is so funny when you talk to these guys about Prince musical skills. They have no problem qualifying Prince as a genius. They know contrary to people like you that what Prince has achieved musically is massive, that very few people release several great albums during their life. Add to that the amazing tours Prince has done : DM, 1999, PR, Parade, SOTT, Lovesexy, DP and ONA. Add to that the aftershows where sometimes people are so amazed they think Prince is an alien sent to earth to kick our butts. Add to that the versatility, the producer skills, the arranger.

So, ok, Prince has released some very average music during his carrer as well. He has been really poor on stage sometimes as well.
Just to remind everybody that what they thought was easy was in fact really hard work.

Miles Davis used to talk about genius and skills and used to say the genius is to rehearse 15 hours a day when he was asked why black people were so gifted. That's what Prince does. he dedicates all his life to music.

Prince is music. He will rehearse all day, then will record a new tune in a studio, then he will play his gig, then he will play an amazing aftershow. After four hours of sleep, he asks for recordings of his last performances and study everything he has done.

People find it funny when he sings "I love you baby but not like I love my guitar". Behind the joke,he is so damn serious in fact.

So you say some "Prince fan", mentionning those who like everything he does, those who think his farts smell good. I'm not one of them. I'm a big music lover who has grown in a family of professional classical musicians.
One day, my own dad came to me with 1999 when I was just 11 and he told me : "listen to this guy. he's gonna be right up there with Miles Davis and James Brown". I did not know he was going to change my life...
[Edited 9/11/07 10:51am]

Joni is entitled to her opinion. Her classification of genius is obviously higher than Prince. You fanbots jump on anyone who doesn't declare Prince a musical Jesus. I don't think he is a virtuoso on any instrument (especially not guitar) and "genius" has become so subjective these days that its value is almost worthless. If anybody can be a genius then being a genius isn't really worth much now, is it?
If Joni doesn't think he's a genius, maybe...just maybe she's surrounded by a higher class of musicians and creative forces and exposed to more mind expanding music than Prince's music and than many on this board? Its possible. The pop crowd is the very definition of mediocrity. What's excellent to the pop crowd in general is not to more accomplished people. Rationalize all you want but its true.
[Edited 9/11/07 12:35pm]

BlaqueKnight said:

Rationalize all you want but you're wrong. Duke Ellington was a popular musician and still a genius who appealed to masses. You do not need to be some nerd who play chords as fast as you can with no emotion whatsoever to be a virtuoso.

The man I have seen in thirty three aftershows throughout the years is a genius. Sorry you were not there.

Rationalize all you want but you're wrong. Duke Ellington was a popular musician and still a genius who appealed to masses. You do not need to be some nerd who play chords as fast as you can with no emotion whatsoever to be a virtuoso.

The man I have seen in thirty three aftershows throughout the years is a genius. Sorry you were not there.

Finally, I dig several of Joni's songs, but what about her work is "original" enough that makes her the judge of "genius?"

In Music in the Western World by Piero Weiss and Richard Taruskin we find the following definition of virtuoso:

"...a virtuoso was, originally, a highly accomplished musician, but by the nineteenth century the term had become restricted to performers, both vocal and instrumental, whose technical accomplishments were so pronounced as to dazzle the public."

The defining element of virtuosity is the performance ability of the musician in question, who is capable of displaying feats of skill well above the average performer. Musicians focused on virtuosity are commonly criticized for overlooking substance and emotion in favor of raw technical prowess. Despite the mechanical aspects of virtuosity, many virtuosi successfully avoid such labels, focusing simultaneously on other musical aspects while writing and performing music.

virtuoso: 1. A musician with masterly ability, technique, or personal style. (freedictionary.com)

virtuoso: 1. exceptional performer: a musician who shows exceptional ability, technique, or artistry (encarta)

virtuoso: 3 : one who excels in the technique of an art; especially : a highly skilled musical performer (as on the violin) (marriam-webster)

sarkozyiszeman said:

Thanks for pointing this out. I consider myself very well versed in different genres of music. I also studied and played for more than a decade, so my tastes and understanding are well-rounded and diverse. It has always irritated me when musical snobs dimiss pop artists as if they cannot be "genius" or even "real" musicians. Just because someone has memorized the jazz chord bible or can play Beethoven with their eyes closed doesn't make them genius. Also, just being "weird" or "original" doesn't equate with genius to me either.

If Joni uses "originality" as the basis for her definition of genius, I could see Prince meeting that criteria. Yes, he has derived aspects of his sound and style from myriad places, but he has synthesized them into a very original package. I really can't see how anyone can argue with that. He has been very original with regard to his music and business.

Is he a musicial virtuoso? No. But again, does being a virtuoso equal genius, or mastery of an instrument?

Finally, I dig several of Joni's songs, but what about her work is "original" enough that makes her the judge of "genius?"

I dig your post bellanoche and I agree with a lot of it. You can dissent without resorting to namecalling.

The quote is almost 20 years old. If they were to ask Joni now, her answer might be different. prince had only been in the game less than ten years. I may not agree that Prince is genius but certain music he's made, like The Rainbow Children is certainly a work of art.

sarkozyiszeman said:

Show me in my post where I said anything about playing fast chords. You obviously don't know anything about being a virtuoso. You must not know what the word means or what it truly means to be one. You are showing your ignorance. Your opinions are getting in the way of the truth. You are biased.

BlaqueKnight said:

Totally wrong again. You have an elitist vision of music. You think that filling compositions with complexed harmonies and lines make greater music. That is so wrong.

When I talk to professional classical musicians, they say that the most difficult aspect of composition is to avoid that when you're good technically.

My dad was telling me that compositions like Kiss and SOTT or When doves cry are far more difficult to come up with than fusion stuff.

Aretha, JB, Ray Charles or Prince could have gone this way cuz technically they have the skills to do so. But they stick to the most precious gift in music : SOUL.

sarkozyiszeman said:

Kiss?
hard?
thats a fucking one chord song

lmfao this thread gets funnier and funnier

yall some crazy muthafunkas lol
I love the org.