blackguitaristz said:

I agree.EVERY artist is influenced by what came before them.The trick is to take what's been done before and put your own creative "spin" on it,which Prince has successfully done.





Do you mean romantically?

krayzie said:

I'm not american and I do not master your language as well as you do but it seems to me you do not understand the definition of norm & standard.

You say Hendrix set a norm in guitar playing which is complete bullshit. What norm ? To take drugs and die at a young age. It had been done before. He was a genius but reducing guitar playing to Hendrix only is plain absurd and is narrow minded.

Springsteen used to play sometimes 5 hours straight on stage with the E street band. Must it become a norm for regular concerts ?

You're using these two words without knowing what they mean in the first place so the discussion is absolutely impossible.

In France we call people like you "insects sodomizers".
[Edited 9/6/07 6:55am]

DevotedPuppy said:

Showmanship makes a difference, I think. Prince & Pablo have much in common, now that I think of it... Womanizing reputations, high level of production, easily bored...

Heiress said:

Peut-être. I actually have this idea to write an academic paper about Prince and Duchamp: female alter egos, the "hidden" (or overt) sexuality in their work, the way they changed the rules about distributing their art (think Benjamin's Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction).

Then after that--Kandinsky & Prince b/c of the whole color/music thing.

(Are you the same Heiress who wrote that paper about Prince for a class? I don't remember the exact topic off-hand, but I saved it and it inspired me with this Duchamp thing. )

krayzie said:

- That´s right. Lots of things that I thought Prince invented, I discovered he didnt. For example, George Clinton used a strange voice like Camille a long time before Prince. He wasn´t the first to use electronic drums and synths also. Like Bernie Worrell and Santana said, he takes from everybody and makes it sound unique.
But I must confess I am not an expert in music history. I would like to serious fans to say what were the innovations that Prince did, and if other artists like Stevie Wonder or Duke Ellington originated something.

Joni didn't go to Woodstock on her manager's advice (she was booked on the Dick Cavett show)... she wrote the song "Woodstock" about the festival though.

Joni was awesome, probably the greatest female guitarist eva..

here is a clip of her performing "California" in 1970

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-q4foLKDlcE

before the cigarettes took over
[Edited 9/7/07 12:23pm]

DevotedPuppy said:

Yessir, that's me, and I'm supposed to be handing in another paper next week...

Your paper sounds like a great idea, go for it!

GustavoRibas said:

Insects sodomizers, rise, rise.

Though I heard the name Joni Mitchell, I didn't even know a single note from any of her songs. Sorry Joni

picasso and prince have nothing in common.

Picasso was an artist very womanizer and scorpio egocentric. a real genius. he used to hang out in his underwear and nothing else on and he was very short...wait...hhhmmm...

LMAO

Vive La France!

sarkozyiszeman said:

By the way, I'm finally ready to come out on a Prince board with the shocking words "Actually I really don't like Joni Mitchell"
Her high voice is often so shrill it makes me change station on the radio and that fretless bass sound on her records (the supposedly 'great' Penis Palladinas) just makes me want to commit genocide. As for what she's singing about, I haven't the foggiest. Big Yellow Taxi was OK but come on... Norah Jones rules!
[Edited 9/7/07 7:07am]

sarkozyiszeman said:

- Hey Sarkoz. Maybe I didnt express myself well. I THINK Prince is a GENIUS, but I was trying to understand if a person HAS to be an originator of a musical genre (of a way of playing an instrument) to be called a genius. Guys like Duke Ellington are considered geniuses but I dont know if they created a musical genre, that was my point. Eric Leeds said that all popular music was defined until 78, and after that, we had exceptional, unique artists like Prince. That was the debate I was trying to bring. I wasnt dissing Prince, or Stevie or Ellington.
BTW, I think every genius steals something from everybody, and there is nothing truly original under the sun. And Vernon Reid said that ´Hendrix was pivotal, Prince was pivotal, Cobain was pivotal´. Guys that changed course of music...
[Edited 9/7/07 8:01am]

GustavoRibas said:

No problem mate. It is just this silly so-called intellectual masturbation we are imposing to ourselves that makes me cringe sometimes.

sarkozyiszeman said:

- Fine, but I think this subject, if well discussed (without the ´Prince is the greatest genius since Beethoven´ or ´Prince is a loser that steals from everybody´ kind of opinions), could be nice. I learned some things here just reading some of the comments

This is kinda late on this topic.. but warrented a response IMO

krayzie said:

Sooo... you are saying that Prince hasn't set standards for complete creative control of his work...? He hasn't set standards for being a virtuoso of so many intruments...? He hasn't set any standards for being a 'complete' arist...? He hasn't set any standards for live showmanship..? etc etc etc

We mut be thinking of two different artist named Prince... because the Prince I know has set industry standards in all of those categories and then some. And don't get it confused by saying that some of this had been done before... because there is a distinct difference between weither something has been done before and setting a standard.

One example cmes to mind....
Ray Charles for instance... demanded the rights to his masters and wanted complete control... but he did not set a standard for this practice. Prince however, has done that. Many artist 'now'... because of Prince are demanding the rights to thier masters and complete control. He therefore set a standard.

Also... even if a standard has been set before... the bar can be raised afterwards ergo setting new standards. And when a new standard is set... this means that the party who set that standard.. took something to a place no one before has gone. Even if a 100 ft walkway was already paved for 90 feet... he still paved the final 10... ie he broke new ground and set new standards.


Although I only partially agree with your analogy of Prince... by your own definition... never seen ONE SINGLE ARTIST impersonating so many different artist... doesn't that mean what you are seeing is an artist do something NEW ...? a synonym for something ORIGINAL in itself...?

GustavoRibas said:

original (adj)
Synonyms: unique, innovative, novel, inventive, creative, new, unusual, imaginative, unprecedented, singular, special

Why are people trying to say prince isn't an originator (core word 'original')... yet in thier arguement to tell why... they use words to describe him which mean the exact same thing???

And oh... GustavoRibas... I'm not picking at you... and I've read your latter responses as well. I just choose to use your quote for an example not because i think you're opinions are way off base... but simply because of the words used to describe Prince. ie... your post was convienant
[Edited 9/7/07 11:18am]

I find it hilarious that so many people are jumping to Prince's defense just because Joni Mitchell - who knows a thing or two about music - doesn't think Prince is a genius. She's not the only one who's said that - Bonnie Raitt, for instance, stated something to the effect of that she sees Prince as more of a great assimilator. He combines a little of this, a little of that to make his own stew, basically. These OBJECTIVE thoughts are coming from fellow musicians, not Prince fans on a message board.

And seeing it from my musician's perspective, I've always seen Prince as the best of the music I was into before I got into him as a teenager (years ago). "When You Were Mine", the song that totally hooked me, contained the best elements of the doo-wop I had been listening to, the rock 'n roll backbeat of the classic rock of the records I was digging and the motown soul I was such a big fan of. Throughout the years, he's added more pieces to his musical puzzle - some "experiments" have been more successful (from an appealing to the masses standpoint) than others. In that regard, I see Prince as a creative entity more than anything else. The word "genius" is severely overused, in my opinion...

Also, as a musician who's played my fair share of gigs with funk, rock and jazz cats, Prince is not a virtuoso musician. He's great at being Prince and doing what Prince does. That's a big deal in itself. I have to wonder what some of u think is a virtuoso musician and what makes Prince a virtuoso musician? He's great, don't get me wrong - he's a big influence on me

Finally, what really made Prince's sound distinctive to me was how he used keyboards instead of a horn section. After 1999 hit, you could hear similar sounds in Phil Collins' music and Ready for the World, among others.

JesseDezz said:

Agreed!

JesseDezz said:

I think you have not been close to him lately in a club while he was playing his guitar.

Moreover someone who can get in a studio and put together TRC or SOTT, playing nearly all the instruments himself in the style he wants from funk to rock to Jazz to pop is a virtuoso.
[Edited 9/8/07 3:29am]

JesseDezz said:

- Yes, he is not a bass player in Jaco´s level or a guitar player with Mc Laughlin´s knowledge, but he is a mullti-instrumentalist, songwriter AND singer. There are lots of amazing session musicians that can play everything and read music that wouldnt even dream of locking themselves in the studio and recording a SOTT or TRC recording almost everything, like Sarkoz said...
[Edited 9/8/07 7:57am]

Look, the man's a musical genius. Nuff said. Anyone who doesn't think this after OVER 25 years later is either lacking knowledge or a hater or BOTH. Case closed.

As expected, there's no place for objective discussion when it comes to Prince

GustavoRibas said:

If you'd read my whole post, you'd see where I gave Prince his props for his creativity. I've been a fan before many of these orgers were born and I come to this board with a musician's objective perspective as well as being a fan of the man's music. And yet you take what I post out of context just to rationalize Prince's greatness/creativity. There's no need for that. No need at all...

MuthaFunka said:

As usual, "a person's a hater" if they don't label Prince the be all end all of music. Such a juvenile stance to take. And it doesn't add anything worthwhile to a discussion. There is such a thing called objectivity...

sarkozyiszeman said:

I was waiting for this response, too. I'm just surprised it didn't mention Small Club. The same predictable panties in a bunch responses and rushes to Prince's defense when there's no need to defend anything.

The org just doesn't change

JesseDezz said:

Show me in ANY of my post that I said "Prince is the end all of music"? You can't. If you have to resrot to making up quotes on people then maybe debating isn't for you?

Again, Prince is a musical genius, just because YOU don't want to label him that, then that is surely your prerogative, but the concenus is he IS a musical genius. I'm going with the concensus and not some uptight musician with an obvious agenda.

No uptight musician with an agenda here - this is a freakin' message board for goodness sakes. You take yourself and this board a bit too seriously...

And by the way, spell check before you post.

JesseDezz said:

You seem to have an agenda when putting words in people's mouths. I just smell some P hateration all over you, that's all. The man's a genius but haters don't like to give cred where cred is due, and it's truly ridiculous NOT to give that cred to a critically-acclaimed musician like Prince.

And did you really come back with some weak 3rd grade "spell check" smack? How desperate is that? So should I have said to you: "You need to end ALL of your sentences with periods" since you didn't?

And you say you AREN'T uptight, right?

It's funny how a guy who's been a fan for over 20 years, grew up learning all of Prince's stuff and considers him a big influence, yet can remain objective gets classified as a "hater" by some poster who lacks the wherewithal to post in an intelligent fashion. Your whole "act" consists of - either you worship at the altar of Prince or you're a "hater". That's the gist of your attempts to defend Prince when there's no need to defend anything. You derive yourself of intelligent discussion. So sad...

At least have something substantive to post - all it does is show your ignorance. You can't come back at me with anything but childish retorts and name-calling. Uptight? I don't think anyone who's into Prince's music can be considered uptight in any way. The man is the personification of freedom. Just shows how inept you are at posting anything other than weak absolutes. A person can be a fan of the man and be objective at the same time. Pity that you don't possess the maturity to do so. Oh well...

And this thing about having an agenda - again, as I stated before, this is a message board. A MESSAGE BOARD. Take a chill pill and get a grip.

JesseDezz has spoken

JesseDezz said:

And it's utterly hilarious when some "self-proclaimed music guru" thinks he's king of a "message board". Hey, if you feel you have to go to these great lengths to prove you're the "Ultimate Prince fan that feels anyone that thinks he's a genius is simply drinking the Purple Kool-Aid," then more power to you, son.

Again, if it's JUST a message board, why are you so defensive? Why the weak attempts at trying to deflect the original issue at hand by going "grammar/spell check" on someone? That's usually the sign of someone that has run out of ammo and is now resolved to weak and petty insults to hide behind. I see it all the time at these message boards: "I'm the king because I play a couple of instruments and have been in the music biz for decades now."

Obviously this place means a lot more to you than you're trying to front off, especially when you have to put words in people's mouth solely because you honestly have nothing to back up your argument against him being a genius.

It's real simple: Is Prince a genius or not? Answer: Yes.

No one here who feels he isn't a genius can muster up a strong enough argument to prove he isn't, not even some "Self-proclaimed Grammar King of the Org" can, so it's not even up for debate. Nuff said.

But hey - Rock on, bro! For you are the KING... at a Prince - the musical genius - fansite.