JonnyApplesauce said:

jonny go listen to ur rap stuff ok lmao, kid

bellanoche said:

Ok...How do you explain the reaction of black audiences who reacted just like the white audiences did in his early years before "Elvis" was an icon. There are accounts (and pics) of black girls going just as nuts as white girls, face it, the man was a phenomenon, one that none of us will quite fathom. Strange how the old time performers have respect, it's all the younger people who don't. Bobby Womack (about as soulful as soul gets) was quoted as saying Elvis had something that grabbed him in his ghetto neighborhood. Jackie Wilson was covering Hound Dog, Don't Be Cruel before anyone knew who he was. If you are too lazy to go and listen to some music and do a little reading and rather just say "he was a white boy who stole black music" go ahead but such arguments have little factual evidence. And as I said before, the man is already in the history books no matter what you or I think. And no rock musician after him would be quite the same without his influence(including Prince).

JonnyApplesauce said:

So I hope you are all ready for one more long damn post.

To start, I dare those of you who have been saying that only white people liked/were influenced by Elvis, to not only read this entire post BUT to respond to it with some real foundation to stand on other that "Elvis is White" and all white people were racist in the 50's.

Anyway, I am so tired of the racist notion that music can be "jacked." If Elvis “Jacked” music then James Brown, George Clinton, Santana, Jimi Hendrix, The Beatles, Adam Ant, Mick Jagger,Earth, Wind and Fire, Michael Jackson, Joni Mitchell, and oh yeah ,ELVIS could say the same of Prince. Does it mean he isn't a genius who took music/pop culture and smacked the hell of it, shook it up and left something new, Hell no. Prince is the most important musician of OUR generation.

So why shouldn’t it be the same for Elvis just because he is white?

And just to clear up the impact/respect Elvis got from African Americans here are some quotes. it only took about five minutes to dig them up…

This link is to a picture Jimi drew of Elvis after seeing him in concert:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w...endrix.jpg

If you look at the list of songs that Jimi provides, it far exceeds the songs that Elvis actually performed at the concert…Geez, Jimi must have been a fan. By the logic displayed in some of the posts...Jimi must have been white...


The rest of the quotes are from some pretty big hitters in the music field( and a few surprises as well) If you don’t know their names then you have no business talking music history. Many quotes by the likes of George Clinton, Quincy Jones, Lowell Fulson, Ivory Joe Hunter, Sam Cooke, Fats Domino, etc…and on and on…were left out because I was to damn lazy to retype them (The ones below I could just cut and paste. )

If you read to the end of the quotes, you will find some quotes by Civil Rights activist Ernest Withers that put some things in perspective that I think are important to this conversation.

So enjoy the quotes...

"As a musicologist, and I consider myself one, there was always a great deal of respect for Elvis [Presley'], especially during his Sun sessions. As a black people, we all knew that. My whole thing was the one-sidedness like Elvis' icon status in America made it like nobody else counted. My heroes came from someone else. My heroes came before him. My heroes were probably his heroes. As far as Elvis being "The King", I couldn't buy that."
Chuck D.

“A lot of people have accused Elvis of stealing the black man’s music, when in fact, almost every black solo entertainer copied his stage mannerisms from Elvis.”
Jackie Wilson

Elvis had an influence on everybody with his musical approach. He broke the ice for all of us.”
Al Green

“I wasn’t just a fan, I was his brother. He said I was good and I said he was good; we never argued about that. Elvis was a hard worker, dedicated, and God loved him. Last time I saw him was at Graceland. We sang Old Blind Barnabus together, a gospel song. I love him and hope to see him in heaven. There’ll never be another like that soul brother.
James Brown

“That’s my idol, Elvis Presley. If you went to my house, you’d see pictures all over of Elvis. He’s just the greatest entertainer that ever lived. And I think it’s because he had such presence. When Elvis walked into a room, Elvis Presley was in the f***ing room. I don’t give a f*** who was in the room with him, Bogart, Marilyn Monroe.”
Eddie Murphy

"Elvis was a giant and influenced everyone in the business."
Isaac Hayes

"I remember Elvis as a young man hanging around the Sun studios. Even then, I knew this kid had a tremendous talent. He was a dynamic young boy. His phraseology, his way of looking at a song, was as unique as Sinatra's. I was a tremendous fan, and had Elvis lived, there would have been no end to his inventiveness."
B.B. King

"I liked Elvis a lot. I saw him as a fellow Mississippian and I was impressed by his sincerity," said King who toured Australia in May '97. "I thought he was honourable when he came to play The Goodwill Revue, a yearly benefit in our home town for needy black kids. When Elvis appeared he was already a big, big star," said the legendary bluesman. "Remember this was the fifties, so for a young white boy to show up at an all-black function took guts. I believe he was showing his roots. After the show, he made a point of posing for pictures with me, treating me like royalty. He'd tell people I was one of his influences."
B. B. King

"Elvis was God-given, there's no other explanation. A Messiah comes around every few thousand years, and Elvis was it this time."
-- Little Richard

"Elvis was an integrator. Elvis was a blessing. They wouldn't let Black music through. He opened the door for Black music." – Little Richard

"Elvis was my close personal friend. He came to my Deer Lake training camp about two years before he died. He told us he didn't want nobody to bother us. He wanted peace and quiet and I gave him a cabin in my camp and nobody even knew it. When the cameras started watching me train, he was up on the hill sleeping in the cabin. Elvis had a robe made for me. I don't admire nobody, but Elvis Presley was the sweetest, most humble and nicest man you'd want to know." - Muhammad Ali

"Early on somebody told me that Elvis was black. And I said 'No, he's white but he's down-home'. And that is what it’s all about. Not being black or white it’s being 'down-home' and which part of down-home you come from." – Sammy Davis Jnr

"On a scale of one to ten, I would rate Elvis eleven." – Sammy Davis Jnr

"I have a respect for Elvis and my friendship. It ain't my business what he did in private. The only thing I want to know is, 'Was he my friend?', 'Did I enjoy him as a performer?', 'Did he give the world of entertainment something?' - and the answer is YES on all accounts. The other jazz just don't matter." – Sammy Davis Jnr

"Describe Elvis Presley? He was the greatest who ever was, is, or will ever be." - Chuck Berry

"Elvis loved gospel music. He was raised on it. And he really did know what he was talking about. He was singing Gospel all the time – almost anything he did had that flavour. You can’t get away from what your roots are." – Cissy Houston

“ ‘Hey, Lieutenant,' one of my men shouted. 'Come on over. Look who's here.' I walked over to the jeep, where a grimy, weary-looking sergeant saluted me and put out his hand. It was Elvis Presley. That their father had shaken the King's hand astonished my kids. What impressed me at the time was that instead of seeking celebrity treatment, Elvis had done his two-year hitch, uncomplainingly, as an ordinary GI, even rising to the responsibility of an NCO."
Colin Powell

He was a mild tempered, quiet, nice guy. He treated everyone the same. There have been rumors about him, saying that he said 'The only thing blacks can do for me is shine my shoes.' Now, I don't believe that. I never saw him act in anyway like that." "I overheard one of Elvis' friends at the time ask Elvis 'Why do you call him 'mister' -- he's just a barbecue guy?' Elvis looked at him and said 'He's a man.' " "That," Withers says, "Was the humility in his temperament." - Ernest Withers

"Elvis was a great man and did more for civil rights than people know. To call him a racist is an insult to us all." - Ernest Withers


So, there you have a small sampling of quotes by notable African Americans. But I think it might be best to end with a quote by John Lennon who is often quoted as stating that "Before Elvis there was nothing" and "No Elvis, no Beatles." I think that answers the question of Elvis' impact.

Peace out and as always, Lovesexy.

JonnyApplesauce said:

Don't make me shoot my lightning at you!!!!!

kalelvisj said:

I agree with you 100%

JonnyApplesauce said:

Oh yeah the weather, well you know April...it sure did rain alot. I'm expecting a hot summer.

kalelvisj said:

You've hit on something that is very important to Elvis' appeal, his everymanness, something that most rock stars have a limited amount of. Prince has almost none of this, Bruce Springsteen has a ton, but Elvis was both icon and everyman. That is one key to his charisma. Also, aside from music, his personality had the makings of myth and legend, his story. There will never be another, all we can do is ponder over what was.

As always thanks for the kind works mozfunky.

I guess what draws me into this conversation so often is that it is so much bigger than Prince and Elvis.

As a "musicoligist" and pop culturalist, it seems to me the melding of musical forms that became Rock and Roll represents the beauty and potential of America at its best. Rock and Roll wasn't just blues or R and B hijacked, it was the culmination of a shared cultural experience that allowed black and white music to fuse into something that was fresh and alive and shared.Little Richard once said that "If Elvis is King, then I must be Queen!" and not withstanding the gender issues of his comment...the child of this union is Rock and Roll. Little Richard, Chuck Berry and Fats Domino created music that fused R&B with some country elements, Elvis fused white spirtuals, black gospel and R&B with country. It was no accident that this all happened in a very small space of time, or that it happened in the deep south.

The impact of all of these musical pioneers should be celebrated because it was in this flash of musical integration that it was proven black and white could merge and create something more powerful together than they could apart.

To me Rock and Roll symbolizes everything that Martin Luther King, Jr pleaded for in his life time. Rock and Roll represents true integration and inclusion.

It is unforgivable that many artists didn't recieve the credit or cold cash they deserved, but that doesn't mean that Elvis got something he didn't deserve.
No one forced people to buy his music or attend his concerts. He succeeded (and ultimately failed) on his own merits and talents. It does nothing to right a wrong to denigrate his achievments.

As a side note, I wanted to thank everyone who has participated in this topic because it has truly inspired to explore these issues in my writing. Heck maybe it will even turn into a book! If nothing else it will be a hell of an essay.

Peace out and lovesexy!!

JoeTyler said:

Please name a song by Elvis in the 60's and 70's that can be classified as anything but garbage. Viva Las Vegas?

dseann said:

Do your homework son, he did fantastic music in gospel, country, and rock before he checked out. Too many songs to name really, so I won't, if you really want to do something other than badmouth, go check for yerself.

Please name a song by Elvis in the 60's and 70's that can be classified as anything but garbage. Viva Las Vegas?[/quote]


Im The Ghetto, Suspicious Minds, Only the Strong Survive, How Great Thou Art, Guitar Man, Bossa Nova Baby, Burning Love, Let Your Self Go, EVERYTHING he sang in the 68 tv special.

But this is all a matter of taste. Never argued about a persons right to like or dislike any given music.

I am loving the fact that none of the Elvis critics want to even deal with any of the posts that list his impact and are backed up with qualitive research.

Every major artist has their clunkers...ever hear the "New Power Soul" album? Or the weak attempts of rap on D&P? We all agree Prince is a genius and if he can have less than stellar albums why can't Elvis and not have the fact that he had some weak music shouldn't be grounds to tear down what he did early in his career.

What music do you know who hit a home run every time? Not Prince, not MJ, not U2, hell, no one.

This arguement is atrting 2 sound like baseball. There all of the records set before Blacks could play are a joke. Some of the BEST players who ever played were in the Negro League.....but know one knows that. Elvis, had he played on a level playing field would have been just another guy back then.

Jerry Lee lewis, Chuck Berry, Lil Richard, Jackie Wilson and other ran rings around Elvis...and I dug Elvis but let's be REAL about it. A lot of his "history" is based on HYPE. That's a FACT.

Graycap23 said:

History is also often based on cold hard facts. You talk about music like baseball. As if Elvis and Little Richard didn't compete on the same charts. As if Chuck Berry wasn't allowed to have records in the top 40. The only thing that stopped either of these performs was their own choices. They sold comparatively to all of the white artist you listed except for Elvis who out sold them all. Elvis adapted his style, for better or worse. He grew as an artist.

I could easily find quotes by all of the people you listed saying how important Elvis was. How his music opened the door for all those who followed.

What I find saddest about your post is that for you it all comes down race. Elvis can't be great because he is white. I find that sad.

kalelvisj said:

Elvis is/was great but over hyped. Jerry Lee lewis was white also but was held down because of his choice 2 marry his own cousin. Jerry was more talented than Elvis. As it relates 2 his race, u have no idea how IRONIC that comment really is.....ask Lil Richard!
[Edited 4/30/07 21:11pm]

Graycap23 said:

I want to apologize for clearly miss reading part of your previous post.

I do wonder how one decides one person is more talented than another...The quality and diversity of their music? Maybe only Prince in all of music history has successfully explored as many different genres of music as Elvis.

If you have read through this topic at all, you will know that I love to throw out the quotes to back up the things I post. I am not clear about your reference to me asking Little Richard about the race issue. I could make some assumptions, but would rather know for sure your intent. I would really appreciate if you could expand or clarify the Ironic element for me.

While Little Richard, Jerry Lee, and Chuck Berry are all immensly talented and indeed great performers, it wasn't only the personal choices they made that limited their careers, nor was it their race, it was also their inability or more likely their refusal to really expand their musical pallets. When they did, Little Richard's gospel music for example, they created magical and beautiful music, But it added nothing new to gospel music.

Elvis on the other hand, refused to be limited to any one genre of music. He explored and combined various musical forms thourghout most of his career. When modern listeners hear "It's now or never" they here a "standard" pop song. At the time it came out it was heard much differently. It combined pop and opera and that mysterious element that can only be defined as "Elvis" music. And it was a monster hit. In fact Barry White was so moved by Elvis' performance that he was inspired to change his life. White was in prison at the time, and the rest is history. Elvis explored and adapted his music in ways that his contemporaries from the 50s didn't.

That exploration is part of his down fall. Elvis is often criticized for abdoning his roots, but if he hadn't he may have fallen away from the public eye just as Chuck, Lil R., and Jerry Lee did.

In the end it often seems Elvis gets criticized for exactly the same reasons we celebrate Prince and Ray Charles and U2,their and his refusal to be musically defined.

So how do you calibrate greatness? By only having successful musical outings? Then every great musician listed anywhere in this forum, especially Prince fails that test.

Perhaps the only fair way to really address this issue is for people to feel free to talk about their preferences but not to qualify those preferences against different artists and especially not based on issues such as race, because culture is not genetic it is enviromental.

There is no denying that Elvis came out financially ahead of the pack, but a lot of people on this board talk about Little Richard, Chuck B., etc as if they aren't praised in the history of Rock and Roll. They are. It took all of them to make it happen.

In the end they all demand respect and gratitude from all of us, black and white and the rainbow inbetween because they gave us the beat that keeps us dancing and the means of expression that makes us sing.

Something I feel Elvis had in a greater extent than his peers in the 50's was the ability to inspire. From Jimi to the Beatles to the Stones to Jackie Wilson to Al Green to Wilson Picket to Prince. That is what defines Elvis' greatness, his ability to inspire. As Bruce Springsteen once said "...it was like he came along and whispered some dream in everybody’s ear, and somehow we all dreamed it.” In the end that will be what continues to define Elvis' impact and it goes beyond race and economic barriers. Elvis simply inspired.

Graycap23, I also want to say I really appreciate how you are able to say so much in so little space as opposed to well...me. I would love your feed back on the quotes I included in my earlier post. If you have the time awesome, if not, that is cool to.

Hail Hail Rock and Roll.

Peace out and Lovesexy.
[Edited 4/30/07 22:18pm]
[Edited 4/30/07 22:22pm]

kalelvisj said:

Thank you for the pic of Jimi, when I first saw that well..as a seattle musician I was really, really moved. good to see it again.

Graycap23 said:

Jerry and buddy and all of that slightly delayed second wave of original rockers wouldn't have done the same music or sought the same oppurtunity without Elvis. In Jerry's case, he was competitive, he wanted to be better than Elvis, In Buddy's case he just sometimes imitated someone he plainly adored although he had a set of songwriting and production abilities well ahead of his time. Jerry was certainly a better instrumentalist than not only elvis but just about most other rock musicians, he was no equal however, creatively, personality wise or otherwise. I love Jerry very much but he would have been a very different artist without Elvis. And, let us not forget the co-revolutionary Sam Phillips.

girl66 said:

girl66 said:

No way! Those are two totally different artists with two people going different directions! Everyone has their own sensation about them.Elvis was all about 50's and well I don't knw, Elvis and Prince is ....just Prince. But probably the closest to him would be Jimi on the giitaar(even though Hendrix still is numero uno!!!!!

No way! Those are two diffferent artists a totally different style and uniqueness about both of them. It would be boring if one was better or one was the same.

Hi

kalelvisj said:

Why is it so hard to admit that Elvis was imitating Black music?

I'm so glad that I am well VERSED in the history of music. If I was not, this thread would leave me confused as hell.

2fly4words said:

Yeah,
I guess I am.

JonnyApplesauce said:[quote]

kalelvisj said:

Why is it so hard to imagine that regardless of color a person can be INFLUENCED by the music they listen to?

I have never denied that Elvis was influenced by R & B, blues and gospel.

Please explain to me how Chuck Berry is "influenced" by country but Elvis is "imitating" or stealing black music?

There is a racist notion implied in saying that depending on the color of his skin, that an artist either steals or is influenced. As a professor of cultural studies I am uncomfortable with that implication.

ELvis never denied the impact of African American Artists on the music he performed. In fact he praised the musicians he drew on and was noted for saying that he could never hope to match the musical power of artists like Fats Domino.

There was a musical melting pot happening in the deep south that inspired Ray Charles, Fats Domino, Chuck Berry, etc to blend the blues and R&B with country chord progressions and lyrical structure. These artists have acknowledged it in interview after inteview. So why is it such an issue that Elvis did the same thing? All of the people listed above acknowledged Elvis' talent and soul.
They have also acknowledged that without Elvis they may not have been able to reach as wide of an audience.


Your question implies that I have somehow stated that Elvis "created" his music without influence. I am making the opposite argument that all of the rock pioneers boldly and bravely allowed ALL of the music that filled the air in the deep south to influence them to create a music that bridged the gaps in our culture.

I don't give Elvis anymore credit for this than I give any of his peers of the time. But neither is it accurate to undermine the obvioius impact he had on artists BLACK and WHITE who followed him.

Is Prince imitating James Brown? Santana? OR if you watch any of his concerts from the Purple Rain era, the stage mannerisms of Elvis? No, but he was certainly influenced.

And to get back to the original question that started this thread...
When all is said and done Prince will have a tremendous legacy that will continue to shape music for years to come. He has certainly earned his place in Rock royalty with Jimi, Chuck, Little R, Jerry Lee, Carl Perkins and oh yeah...Elvis.

history is just that 'his story'; that Chuck D quote you printed said it all

Prince influeneced by Elvis.....thanks 4 that LAUGH. I don't believe that.

Graycap23 said:

have you seen Prince in concert? The 1999 tour he was clearly influenced by Elvis in his performance. The firemans pole came straight from Jailhouse Rock. Purple Rain tour he hit so many "ELVIS" poses that it was insane. Hell there are photos of Elvis humping the stage dating to 1954, and the world was still shocked when Prince did it in 1984. Not to mention that he has been doing Elvis songs in aftershows and concerts dating back to at least 1986.

Elvis' influence went beyond just music, it was also about attitude and inclusion and personal freedom regardless of race or economic class. Part of the reason Elvis was so hated by the press in the 50's and burned in effigy by churches across the country was because he openly broke segregation laws and openly celebrated African American culture.

So tear him down if you like. Deny his obvious impact on music and culture, thats cool to. But you will be wrong. Not according to me, but according to Jimi Hendrix, Jackie Wilson, James Brown, George Clinton, I could go on, but it wouldn't matter and my fingers are weary.

And if you want to really get into it then we can track Elvis to Jimi who was clearly impacted and openly stated that Elvis was a hero to him. Or Elvis to The Beatles. Deny their impact on Prince. So even by degrees of separation Prince is influenced by Elvis. Or Elvis to Jackie Wilson who stated that "A lot of people have accused Elvis of stealing the black man's music, when in fact almost every black solo entertainer copied his stage mannerisms from Elvis." James Brown once said that he and Elvis came out at the same time, but until Elvis broke down the walls some record stores would even let him have his picture on his records. If James Brown can give Elvis credit for his impact why are so many people rushing to diminish now?

Is it necessary to tear one artist down to build up another? Elvis achieved what he achieved and we can second guess it, denounce it, and deny it all we want, and it will still be there. Should this undermine the impact of the other artists that Elvis praised in his life time and that I have more than acknowledged in my posts, no it shouldn't.

But tearing any artist down or denying their influence does nothing to change the past slights dealt to other performers and only serves to continue a cultural division that devalues the achievments of all of the early pioneers in Rock and Roll.

Peace out and Lovesexy...

abierman said:

"We're gonna win this race!"
" Lemonade! That cool refreshing drink!"

mozfonky said:

Prince has an inate gift when performing live as well! He seems to suck the Audience in to being part of the performance, makes U feel like he's there 4 U and U alone and we're here 2 party together. I'm exhausted at the end of each concert I've been 2! At least that's the way he plays it here in Australia.