does prince get paid when people perform his songs live?

Reply #35 posted 12/21/06 1:51pm

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lovemachine said:

P.M. Dawn once recorded a remake of SWEET HOME ALABAMA called IF SHE LOVES ME...which heavily sampling the song. P.M. Dawn could not get permission by the surviving members of Lynyrd Skynyrd because they won't not let a "black artist" sample them. So they decided to release the remake on their website for everyone to download FOR FREE.

There is not one single reference to this song or this story anywhere on Google that I could find so I guess you are the only person in the world to know this. Show me some proof.[/quote]

yeah that is some made up ATTACK against LS. it is silly as you can not give away something that is protected by copyright (see the law suites against those that file share) just like I can not make and give away copies of a book or movie. it is just as illegal to do that as it is to sell it.

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Reply #36 posted 12/21/06 3:19pm

rudedog

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SlamGlam said:

lovemachine said:

There is not one single reference to this song or this story anywhere on Google that I could find so I guess you are the only person in the world to know this. Show me some proof.

yeah that is some made up ATTACK against LS. it is silly as you can not give away something that is protected by copyright (see the law suites against those that file share) just like I can not make and give away copies of a book or movie. it is just as illegal to do that as it is to sell it.[/quote]

Hey Numnuts, you want proof, I'll email you the track. Here is the website it was on: http://www.pmdawn.net

Do some research there.

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Reply #37 posted 12/22/06 10:08am

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rudedog said:

SlamGlam said:

Hey Numnuts, you want proof, I'll email you the track. Here is the website it was on: http://www.pmdawn.net

Do some research there.

where is the story?

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Reply #38 posted 12/22/06 10:39am

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Fury said:

how does that work? he wrote the bulk of the songs for The Time, who still tour regularly..Prince making money off of this (or any other artists)?

You can't make money off of other people covering your songs, covering a song live without recording it is legal. That's what most local live acts do...

so Prince doesn't make money from people performing his songs live.

if they record it however....

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Reply #39 posted 12/22/06 10:58am

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ufoclub said:

Fury said:

how does that work? he wrote the bulk of the songs for The Time, who still tour regularly..Prince making money off of this (or any other artists)?

are you sure?

http://www.snopes.com/mus...rthday.asp

" royalties are due for public performance, defined by copyright law as performances which occur "at a place open to the public, or at any place where a substantial number of persons outside of a normal circle of a family and its social acquaintances is gathered." So, crooning "Happy Birthday to You" to family members and friends at home is fine, but performing a copyrighted work in a public setting such as a restaurant or a sports arena technically requires a license from ASCAP or the Harry Fox Agency (although such infringements are rarely prosecuted)."

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Reply #40 posted 12/22/06 11:08am

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SlamGlam said:

ufoclub said:

I'm sure! Ask any cover band that tours around the hotspots of your city if they have to pay royalites, even at a radio sponsered event like a public New Years party... they don't!

lemme research this out... becuase the law also changes depending on venue... but cover bands throughout history have never paid royalties.....
[Edited 12/22/06 11:15am]

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Reply #41 posted 12/22/06 12:15pm

metalorange

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ufoclub said:

SlamGlam said:

They don't pay royalties as such - but as far as I understand it, a band playing covers or really anything live is supposed to have a performance license purchased from Ascap or one of the other big song register companies. Ascap then shares out this money it has collected amongst the songwriters and publishers, depending on how much their songs are being covered.

Either that, or the venue has a performance license in a similar manner.

At least, that is what is supposed to happen as far as I can figure if your band is run as a proper legit business.

http://www.royalty-free.t...rights.htm
With any music, including royalty free music, public performances must be notified to your local Performance Rights society. You can usually do this through the broadcaster who's transmitting your production (by giving them a cue sheet), or you may contact them directly. If you aren't sure what a "public performance" is, ask your local society - basically if the public can hear the music, then it usually counts as a "performance" but there are different interpretations around the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w...ing_rights
Performing rights are the right to perform music in public. It is part of copyright law and demands payment to the music’s composer/lyricist and publisher (with the royalties generally split 50/50 between the two) when a business uses music in a public performance. Examples of public performances are broadcast and cable television, radio, concerts, nightclubs, restaurants etc. When music is performed by a business they must obtain a license to use that music and compensate the author (composer and lyricist) and publisher.

In the United States, broadcasters can pay for their use of music in one of two ways: they can obtain permission/license directly from the music’s copyright owner (usually the publisher), or they can obtain a license from ASCAP and BMI to use all of the music in their repertories. ASCAP and BMI along with the much smaller SESAC are the three performing rights societies in the U.S. and once they receive payment from the broadcasters they are responsible for compensating the music authors and publisher. Nearly every composer, songwriter, lyricist and publisher is a member of a performing rights society and the income received from them is a major source of their income.

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Reply #42 posted 12/22/06 9:06pm

GaryMF

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Thanks again metalorange. but it seem slike many people are not actually reading. sad

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Reply #43 posted 12/23/06 12:28am

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After looking into it and asking some cover band guys I know... the answer is in reality: NO, the band does not have to pay any royalties for doing covers live, but the venue(s) has to maintain a licence to operate and let cover bands play on their premises, and this license involves a fee paid to ASCAP or BMI.

I'm registered with BMI myself!

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Reply #44 posted 12/23/06 5:42am

metalorange

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ufoclub said:

And the money payed to Ascap or Bmi or whatever goes into a big pot that is re-distributed to publishers and songwrites whose songs are being performed... which includes Prince. Therefore, the answer to whether Prince gets paid when people perform his songs live is technically... yes!

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Reply #45 posted 12/23/06 9:39am

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yeah i knew that someone paid the song owners.

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Reply #46 posted 12/23/06 9:45am

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metalorange said:

ufoclub said:

But if I went and covered "Let's Go Crazy" at a club downtown every Tuesday (like a certain cover band I know), Prince would not see an increase in revenue, not even a few cents...

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Reply #47 posted 12/23/06 9:50am

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ufoclub said:

But if I went and covered "Let's Go Crazy" at a club downtown every Tuesday (like a certain cover band I know), Prince would not see an increase in revenue, not even a few cents...

yeah but i have a feeling the payment is based on estimates of how often a given song is covered. so prince gets paid more than say vinnia ice. so prince gets paid more.
'

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Reply #48 posted 12/23/06 1:05pm

coolcat

SlamGlam said:

ufoclub said:

But if I went and covered "Let's Go Crazy" at a club downtown every Tuesday (like a certain cover band I know), Prince would not see an increase in revenue, not even a few cents...

yeah but i have a feeling the payment is based on estimates of how often a given song is covered. so prince gets paid more than say vinnia ice. so prince gets paid more.
'

But how do they make those estimates?

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Reply #49 posted 12/23/06 1:32pm

metalorange

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coolcat said:

SlamGlam said:

yeah but i have a feeling the payment is based on estimates of how often a given song is covered. so prince gets paid more than say vinnia ice. so prince gets paid more.
'

But how do they make those estimates?

ASCAP's royalty calculations are based on a system of credits. Here is an example of how the money is calculated based on the ASCAP system.

First, some general information: ASCAP weights different factors in order to come up with a song's total "credits" and a fair royalty calculation. For example, the song is weighted based on the type of performance (theme, underscore, or promotional); this is known as the use weight. A song that is featured and sung by a recording artist on TV or radio gets more weight than one that was played as background music during a radio commercial. The licensee (radio station, TV station, etc.) is weighted based on its licensing fee, which in turn is based on the licensee's markets and number of stations carrying its broadcast signal. There is a weight applied to the time of day the music is performed (particularly in television). Music played during peak view/listener times receives more weight.

ASCAP also uses a follow the dollar factor, which means that songwriters and publishers are paid based on the medium from which the money came. For example, money paid out from radio stations is paid for radio performances. A general licensing allocation is figured for fees that ASCAP collects from bars, hotels and other non-broadcast licensees. These fees are distributed to songwriters and publishers based on similar radio and TV broadcasts of the individual songs. In other words, they estimate that restaurants and bars are playing the songs at a similar rate as the local radio and TV stations.

Here is an example of the calculation that ASCAP uses to determine the number of credits a song title has:

Use weight
X
Licensee weight
X
"Follow the dollar" weight
X
"Time of day" weight
X
"General licensing allocation"
+
Any radio feature premium credits (bonus credits for top played songs that reach a specific threshold within a quarter)
= Total number of credits

The total number of credits is multiplied by the shares for the song (how the royalties are split between writers and publishers). This number is multiplied by the credit value for the song. The value of one credit (credit value) is arrived at by dividing the total number of credits for all writers and publishers by the total amount of money available for distribution for that quarter. For example, if there are a total of 10 million credits for a quarter, and there have been 35 million dollars collected for distribution that quarter, then the value of one credit for that quarter is $3.50.

The final number is the royalty payment. Here is how it works:

4,000 Credits
X
50% (.5) Share
X
$3.50 Credit Value
=
$7,000 Royalty payment

Royalty payments are made quarterly.

These calculations are quite difficult and vary somewhat between each of the three PROs. Visit their Web sites (links are the end of this article) for additional information on how these royalty payments are calculated.

Internet royalties
For Webcasts and other digital performances, SoundExchange was formed to collect and distribute those performance royalties. Just as in traditional media, broadcasters of digital performances of music must pay royalties to the songwriters and publishers of the music they play. Because of the Digital Performance Right in Sound Recordings Act of 1995, however, they must also pay royalties to the recording artists. SoundExchange collects electronic play logs from cable and satellite subscription services, non-interactive webcasters, and satellite radio stations. They then distribute the royalty payments directly to artists and recording copyright owners (usually record labels) based on those logs.

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Reply #50 posted 12/23/06 5:55pm

sosgemini

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A performance of the Jimi Hendrix classic, "The Wind Cries Mary," may cost Michael Dorr his restaurant.

Dorr, the 37-year-old owner of Imbibe on Southeast Hawthorne Boulevard, has been slapped with a federal lawsuit by companies that own the rights to a trio of popular classics that were performed at Dorr's restaurant in 2005.

The songs at the center of the suit?

Other than the Hendrix song, the music companies say Stevie Wonder's "That Girl," and a 1971 tune, "Slippin' into Darkness."

Dorr says a rep from the American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers paid an unannounced visit to his restaurant one night and heard covers of the songs performed by local band "Black Notes."

Because his place features local musicians and covers are rare, he didn't think he had to pay the musicians and publishers group an estimated $2,000 to cover performances of copyrighted tunes.

But the owners of the songs, including Wonder and Hendrix's estate, say he does.

Now they're suing Dorr for copyright infringement - and they're seeking payment of between $750 and $30,000 for each song, along with attorney fees.

"It's basically going to bankrupt me and put me out of business," Dorr said this morning. "I can't afford the lawyer and the fees. It's going to close me down."

The married father of two, who opened Imbibe a couple of years ago, said bands typically start playing after 10. But after Friday, the restaurant will do without live music because of the lawsuit.

"It's a total bummer," he said. "It's scary for me and my family. The restaurant business is hard and on top of other things, business is slow. This is the icing on the cake."

Space for sale...

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Reply #51 posted 12/23/06 6:23pm

coolcat

sosgemini said:

Thanks for posting this. The musicians and venue owners shouldn't take this for granted.

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Reply #52 posted 12/23/06 8:34pm

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sosgemini said:

, he didn't think he had to pay the musicians and publishers group an estimated $2,000 to cover performances of copyrighted tunes.

pwned

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Reply #53 posted 12/24/06 7:38pm

NDRU

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I managed to play 30 covers last night, and so far no lawsuit!

But I guess it was the owner of the restaurant that got sued, huh?

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Reply #54 posted 12/24/06 7:49pm

thebanishedone

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no you dont pay if you play covers live.
but if you play it live and record it and publish you pay.

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Reply #55 posted 12/25/06 9:32am

rudedog

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What about YouTube?? There are thousands upon thousands of Black Sweat and other Prince parodies and they USE Prince's music. This goes for a million other artists who's music is being used for parodies on YouTube. They don't pay the original artists. You can release anything as long as you don't get paid for it.

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Reply #56 posted 12/25/06 10:22am

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rudedog said:

youtube is coming under scrutiny... they pull stuff when pressed.

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Reply #57 posted 12/25/06 10:40am

prime

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toejam said:

I'm almost 100% sure that when it comes to a live performance you're allowed to cover whatever song you want without paying royalties. It's only when you then intend to "sell" it (ie. a live album) that you have to pay royalties.

I've mentioned this a few times on similar threads, but no one ever believes me! I'm still sticking by it though as I'm a musician myself and have never had to pay royalities for playing covers... How would Jazz musicians survive if they weren't allowed to play covers? The whole art of jazz improvisation depends on it!!

(edit: sorry kcwm, didn't see your post... yeah... what you said!)
[Edited 12/19/06 6:27am]

Live you can sing whatcha want (there would never be a "cover band") but if you sell it and make money then you must pay "The Royals".

Prime aka The Kid

"I need u to dance, I need u to strip
I need u to shake Ur lil' ass n hips
I need u to grind like Ur working for tips
And give me what I need while we listen to PRINCE"

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Reply #58 posted 12/25/06 4:01pm

coolcat

rudedog said:

On youtube it is different... they're taking the actual recording of the artist and putting it on the web along with some video parody... that's definitely illegal...

When the parody is a person's own performance without using the original recording, and they're not making money I think it is legal... but youtube might be open to lawsuits, since these videos are ultimately bringing in money for them... I don't know...

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Reply #59 posted 12/28/06 9:17pm

GaryMF

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prime said:

toejam said:

Live you can sing whatcha want (there would never be a "cover band") but if you sell it and make money then you must pay "The Royals".

look up a few posts and you'll see that the venues must pay for when a cover band plays (via their annual licenses to BMI or ASCAP)

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