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Thread started 12/18/06 5:23pm

Fury

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does prince get paid when people perform his songs live?

how does that work? he wrote the bulk of the songs for The Time, who still tour regularly..Prince making money off of this (or any other artists)?
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Reply #1 posted 12/18/06 6:26pm

theoriginalQue
enB

Fury said:

how does that work? he wrote the bulk of the songs for The Time, who still tour regularly..Prince making money off of this (or any other artists)?


lightning rainbo

...Prince determines the set list whenever the Time plays~he owns the whole program n more ways than U can count...the original agreement might have seemed choice n the beginning & looks more rank (2B) as the season's progress...Morris Day & the Time can go no where & play nothing without Prince getting paid~he 'owns' them by paper=name, songs & such....& thats 4 real!! the fella's have been 'bound' 2 his discretion from jump!!! (they useta B my 'boys' up until this summer & eye could easily drift N2 B's pov here~considering the season eye'll show restraint wink )

whomsoever owns publishing rights ~ whenever their work is used 4 recording the artist must pay up front 2 even use it~could B kinda ruff 2 collect if someone just throws n a cover on the set...stories have come 2 B regarding artists' who have recorded his songs~he never seems 2 B gracious about it even tho' it makes it 2 the bank with no problem cool

queen B
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Reply #2 posted 12/18/06 6:38pm

sosgemini

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but arent the Time now playing as Morris Day & The Time? cause they have to pay Prince if they go just by Prince?

thats what I thought.

and are you sure that Prince has to okay live performances? that doesnt seem right...

wheres all the prince experts at? shed some light on us.
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Reply #3 posted 12/18/06 8:30pm

SlamGlam

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legally someone is supposed to pay a fee every time a song is played or preformed publicly. technically when they sing "happy birthday to you" at apple bees they owe a fee.
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Reply #4 posted 12/18/06 8:37pm

sosgemini

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SlamGlam said:

legally someone is supposed to pay a fee every time a song is played or preformed publicly. technically when they sing "happy birthday to you" at apple bees they owe a fee.



oh oh oh, your right...thats why they make up their own happy b-day songs...

but do they have to get permission?
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Reply #5 posted 12/18/06 9:42pm

sallysassalot

i haven't taken intellectual property, copyrights, or trademarks classes yet but it was my understanding that if a person covers another artist's song live (and not on tv or included on a live cd), that performer is not liable for a fee. if they broadcast it live or release it as part of a live cd set, they have to pay the royalty. this is similar to why there is no copyright or trademark for fabric patterns (this is why knock off bags are legal), but if you put the name "dior" or "louis vuitton" or whatever on the bag, then you can be sued for infringement.

i could be wrong so if somebody knows otherwise, hip me to it. i'll be taking the classes next year so i'll get back to you if i learn otherwise.
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Reply #6 posted 12/18/06 9:43pm

coolcat

sallysassalot said:

i haven't taken intellectual property, copyrights, or trademarks classes yet but it was my understanding that if a person covers another artist's song live (and not on tv or included on a live cd), that performer is not liable for a fee. if they broadcast it live or release it as part of a live cd set, they have to pay the royalty. this is similar to why there is no copyright or trademark for fabric patterns (this is why knock off bags are legal), but if you put the name "dior" or "louis vuitton" or whatever on the bag, then you can be sued for infringement.

i could be wrong so if somebody knows otherwise, hip me to it. i'll be taking the classes next year so i'll get back to you if i learn otherwise.


I'm pretty sure there's a fee involved... I think it's the venue's responsibility to pay the fees... But they might be paying a standard fee to the PRO's (ascap, bmi etc...)

I don't think permission is required.
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Reply #7 posted 12/18/06 9:46pm

sallysassalot

coolcat said:

sallysassalot said:

i haven't taken intellectual property, copyrights, or trademarks classes yet but it was my understanding that if a person covers another artist's song live (and not on tv or included on a live cd), that performer is not liable for a fee. if they broadcast it live or release it as part of a live cd set, they have to pay the royalty. this is similar to why there is no copyright or trademark for fabric patterns (this is why knock off bags are legal), but if you put the name "dior" or "louis vuitton" or whatever on the bag, then you can be sued for infringement.

i could be wrong so if somebody knows otherwise, hip me to it. i'll be taking the classes next year so i'll get back to you if i learn otherwise.


I'm pretty sure there's a fee involved... I think it's the venue's responsibility to pay the fees... But they might be paying a standard fee to the PRO's (ascap, bmi etc...)

I don't think permission is required.

that's probably right. it seems like a policy that would encourage new and original material. i would guess most people can get round paying the fees though, so long as nobody important was watching that night. lol
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Reply #8 posted 12/18/06 10:21pm

GaryMF

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I believe from what i've read (not sure though), that all Public performances of songs..... the VENUE must pay the SONGWRITER (i.e. a performance royalty).

Same with songs played on the radio. But NOT the artist/performer who sang it (they only get MECHANICAL royalties. i.e. for sales of actual records/cds).

Technically, the venue pays the performance royalty via BMI or ASCSAP who have complicated formulas for figuring out royalties.

i don't think they actually figure it out for each concert...rather they model how often various songs are played and pay out royalty rates to publishers based on their models.

I think the venue just pays a monthly rate to ASCAP or BMI for use of the entire catalog.

Does Applebee's actually pay? I doubt it but I dont' know.

I play in a cover band and we never have thought it about. i assume we play in venues that pay ASCAP or BMI
rainbow
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Reply #9 posted 12/18/06 10:50pm

kcwm

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Sallysassalot ur completely right.
Basically u dont have to worry about anything unless u are recording the cover, then u have 2 contact the person who wrote it etc get permission all that crap.
So feel free 2 cover songs as much as u want! even if ur covering Prince and he happens 2 walk along he cant do shit unless ur recording! No matter how bad u perform it haha
Receiving transmission from David Bowie's nipple antenna. Do you read me Lieutenant Bowie, I said do you read me...Lieutenant Bowie
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Reply #10 posted 12/19/06 5:08am

wlcm2thdwn

Royalties
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Reply #11 posted 12/19/06 6:26am

toejam

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I'm almost 100% sure that when it comes to a live performance you're allowed to cover whatever song you want without paying royalties. It's only when you then intend to "sell" it (ie. a live album) that you have to pay royalties.

I've mentioned this a few times on similar threads, but no one ever believes me! I'm still sticking by it though as I'm a musician myself and have never had to pay royalities for playing covers... How would Jazz musicians survive if they weren't allowed to play covers? The whole art of jazz improvisation depends on it!!

(edit: sorry kcwm, didn't see your post... yeah... what you said!)
[Edited 12/19/06 6:27am]
Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
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Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #12 posted 12/19/06 7:06am

metalorange

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I'm no expert, but I believe an artist has to purchase a performing license to do cover versions live, then they can perform whatever they want. The money from that is split up and distributed to the artists by the organisation issuing the license. I don't think it is the venue who has to pay it for each individual band, otherwise surely you would end up with a venue requesting an act not play covers to save them money! But a venue also has to have a general license for acts to perform there of course.

Performing Rights License
Authorization for the public performance of a song frequently granted by a performing rights society through a blanket license.

Performing Rights Society
The associations or companies that issue performing rights licenses, track public performances, collect performing license revenues and distribute those revenues to song writers and music publishers. The performing rights societies in the United States are ASCAP, BMI and SESAC.
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Reply #13 posted 12/19/06 9:32am

GaryMF

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toejam said:

I'm almost 100% sure that when it comes to a live performance you're allowed to cover whatever song you want without paying royalties. It's only when you then intend to "sell" it (ie. a live album) that you have to pay royalties.

I've mentioned this a few times on similar threads, but no one ever believes me! I'm still sticking by it though as I'm a musician myself and have never had to pay royalities for playing covers... How would Jazz musicians survive if they weren't allowed to play covers? The whole art of jazz improvisation depends on it!!

(edit: sorry kcwm, didn't see your post... yeah... what you said!)
[Edited 12/19/06 6:27am]

sorry but that' not correct.

http://entertainment.hows...lties7.htm

PRO customers include just about anyone who plays music in a public place -- even those who play "hold" music for their business. These include television networks, cable television stations, radio stations, background music services like MUZAK, colleges and universities, concert presenters, symphony orchestras, Web sites, bars, restaurants, hotels, theme parks, skating rinks, bowling alleys, circuses, you name it -- if they play music, they have to have a license and pay royalties.
rainbow
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Reply #14 posted 12/19/06 10:33am

pennylover

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theoriginalQueenB said:

Fury said:

how does that work? he wrote the bulk of the songs for The Time, who still tour regularly..Prince making money off of this (or any other artists)?


lightning rainbo

...Prince determines the set list whenever the Time plays~he owns the whole program n more ways than U can count...the original agreement might have seemed choice n the beginning & looks more rank (2B) as the season's progress...Morris Day & the Time can go no where & play nothing without Prince getting paid~he 'owns' them by paper=name, songs & such....& thats 4 real!! the fella's have been 'bound' 2 his discretion from jump!!! (they useta B my 'boys' up until this summer & eye could easily drift N2 B's pov here~considering the season eye'll show restraint wink )

whomsoever owns publishing rights ~ whenever their work is used 4 recording the artist must pay up front 2 even use it~could B kinda ruff 2 collect if someone just throws n a cover on the set...stories have come 2 B regarding artists' who have recorded his songs~he never seems 2 B gracious about it even tho' it makes it 2 the bank with no problem cool

queen B

I love this thread wink
Interesting read theoriginalQueenB.
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Reply #15 posted 12/19/06 10:47am

rudedog

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Fury said:

how does that work? he wrote the bulk of the songs for The Time, who still tour regularly..Prince making money off of this (or any other artists)?


The only time someone has to pay Prince for covering his songs (whether live or on an album) is if that person decides to SELL it. You can record a cover and release it, BUT not pay royalties...ONLY if you don't sell it.

P.M. Dawn once recorded a remake of SWEET HOME ALABAMA called IF SHE LOVES ME...which heavily sampling the song. P.M. Dawn could not get permission by the surviving members of Lynyrd Skynyrd because they won't not let a "black artist" sample them. So they decided to release the remake on their website for everyone to download FOR FREE.
"The voter is less important than the man who provides money to the candidate," - Former Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens
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Reply #16 posted 12/19/06 11:58am

metalorange

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rudedog said:

Fury said:

how does that work? he wrote the bulk of the songs for The Time, who still tour regularly..Prince making money off of this (or any other artists)?


The only time someone has to pay Prince for covering his songs (whether live or on an album) is if that person decides to SELL it. You can record a cover and release it, BUT not pay royalties...ONLY if you don't sell it.

P.M. Dawn once recorded a remake of SWEET HOME ALABAMA called IF SHE LOVES ME...which heavily sampling the song. P.M. Dawn could not get permission by the surviving members of Lynyrd Skynyrd because they won't not let a "black artist" sample them. So they decided to release the remake on their website for everyone to download FOR FREE.


As I tried to say above (and as the GaryMF link shows) Prince doesn't get payed per performance... but he does get paid via a percentage of a collective pot from all the performers who bother to go legit and buy a performers license, the percentage depending on how much they reckon he has been covered by performers.

As far as The Time goes, I really don't think Prince has anything whatsoever to do with their setlists or what they choose to play - they'll just have to pay out for a blanket performers license like I'm sure even Prince does for when he plays songs copyrighted to other people.

As for PM Dawn, I doubt today they would get away with using samples without permission whether they were giving the music away for free or not - it's still breaking intellectual copyright for which they could be sued. However the laws about naming your samples didn't come into force until the mid-90s.
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Reply #17 posted 12/19/06 12:41pm

Bull

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Rudedog, Is that true that Lynyrd Skynyrd doesn't let black artist remake or sample their songs? If so, my Lynyrd Skynard shit is for sale.
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Reply #18 posted 12/19/06 1:35pm

rudedog

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metalorange said:[quote]

rudedog said:



As for PM Dawn, I doubt today they would get away with using samples without permission whether they were giving the music away for free or not - it's still breaking intellectual copyright for which they could be sued. However the laws about naming your samples didn't come into force until the mid-90s.



This only happened a few years ago, so I don't think artists can be punished unless they are actually profitting from someone else's work.

Yes, Prince Be (of P.M. Dawn) announced this on pmdawn.net about the whole Lynrd Skynrd thing. And since then, there has been no retribution from LS about this.
[Edited 12/19/06 13:38pm]
"The voter is less important than the man who provides money to the candidate," - Former Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens
Rudedog no no no!
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Reply #19 posted 12/19/06 3:35pm

metalorange

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rudedog said:



This only happened a few years ago, so I don't think artists can be punished unless they are actually profitting from someone else's work.

Yes, Prince Be (of P.M. Dawn) announced this on pmdawn.net about the whole Lynrd Skynrd thing. And since then, there has been no retribution from LS about this.


I'm sure it must be illegal for you to stand on a street corner and giveaway homemade copies of Lynrd Skynrd CDs for free, I don't see how it would be any different with samples and on the internet. All because Skynrd didn't bother suing doesn't mean it isn't technically illegal. But you never know all the ins-and-outs of the law.
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Reply #20 posted 12/19/06 4:56pm

Se7en

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Prince (or any other artist) does not get paid when their songs are performed live. Artists only get royalties from record sales and radio/video/commercials. If someone were to cover Prince on CD (if Prince approved), THEN Prince would get a royalty.

As for "Happy Birthday" - there is no royalty there. Certain songs become public domain after SO long (Happy Birthday, Auld Lang Syne, Here Comes Santa Clause, Rudolph, etc.)
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Reply #21 posted 12/19/06 5:35pm

metalorange

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Se7en said:

Prince (or any other artist) does not get paid when their songs are performed live. Artists only get royalties from record sales and radio/video/commercials. If someone were to cover Prince on CD (if Prince approved), THEN Prince would get a royalty.

As for "Happy Birthday" - there is no royalty there. Certain songs become public domain after SO long (Happy Birthday, Auld Lang Syne, Here Comes Santa Clause, Rudolph, etc.)


But what about the 'Performance Royalties' described in the link that GaryMF gave: http://entertainment.hows...lties7.htm
??
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Reply #22 posted 12/19/06 8:09pm

sosgemini

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Se7en said:

Prince (or any other artist) does not get paid when their songs are performed live. Artists only get royalties from record sales and radio/video/commercials. If someone were to cover Prince on CD (if Prince approved), THEN Prince would get a royalty.

As for "Happy Birthday" - there is no royalty there. Certain songs become public domain after SO long (Happy Birthday, Auld Lang Syne, Here Comes Santa Clause, Rudolph, etc.)



Pat Livingston: Actually, the rights to 'Happy Birthday' are owned by
the family of the lady who wrote the song. The last time I heard
(which was approx. 1-2yrs ago) two sisters held the rights to the
royalty. They receive about $5.00 each time it is used
professionally. They still manage to rake in 10 to 30 grand a year,
even though most production companies try to screw them by using "For
He's a Jolly Good Fellow." Also, considering the rampant syndication
of shows, they feel the 'paperwork' is too much hassle (yeah, right).


from: http://futuramasutra.baby...2ACV01.txt
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Reply #23 posted 12/19/06 8:13pm

sosgemini

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The Chicago-based music publisher Clayton F. Summy Company, working with Jessica Hill, published and copyrighted "Happy Birthday" in 1935. Under the laws in effect at the time, the Hills' copyright would have expired after one 28-year term and a renewal of similar length, falling into public domain by 1991. However, the Copyright Act of 1976 extended the term of copyright protection to 75 years from date of publication, and the Copyright Term Extension Act of 1998 added another 20 years, so under current law the copyright protection of "Happy Birthday" will remain intact until at least 2030.


http://www.snopes.com/mus...rthday.asp
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Reply #24 posted 12/20/06 10:55am

GaryMF

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metalorange said:

Se7en said:

Prince (or any other artist) does not get paid when their songs are performed live. Artists only get royalties from record sales and radio/video/commercials. If someone were to cover Prince on CD (if Prince approved), THEN Prince would get a royalty.

As for "Happy Birthday" - there is no royalty there. Certain songs become public domain after SO long (Happy Birthday, Auld Lang Syne, Here Comes Santa Clause, Rudolph, etc.)


But what about the 'Performance Royalties' described in the link that GaryMF gave: http://entertainment.hows...lties7.htm
??


Thanks MetalOrange.... it seems like some people are not reading carefully smile

What Se7en says is correct regarding PERFOMERS (e.g. singers). Prince the singer doesnt' get paid when someone plays his songs live.

SONGWRITERS/PUBLISHERS DO get paid for performance royalties. IN Prince's case, he is both singer and songwriter and owns his publishing (with Warners I think).

So he does get paid for perofrmances via ASCAP.

My question: WHO pays ASCAP? THe performer or the venue? I'm in a cover band and we've played THe Bitter End, other venues, and we never get licenses. I thought the venue must pay ASCAP or BMI.

Also, I believe that site i linked to mentions that you CANNNOT ALTER a song without permission of the PUBLISHER. E.g. WEird AL needs permission from Prince if we wants to change the lyrics etc. to one of his existing songs, in addition to paying performance and or mechanical royalties

He can record a cover version without permission but then must pay both mechanical (if he sells recordings) and pefromance (for radio play, live performances) royalties.
rainbow
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Reply #25 posted 12/20/06 12:01pm

wavesofbliss

I think the venue just pays a monthly rate to ASCAP or BMI for use of the entire catalog.


this sounds right. in the many retail plaes i've worked as wellas at church, we have to by an anual lisence to use use the music we sing during services. in resturaunts and clubs you can often find a sticker on the front window or door that makes it clear that the venue in copyright compliant.

- -- -

my music biz question for the day, is a little off topic bt still releated. how do musicians make money on the road as touring artists. the merchandise table is pretty obvious but as artists who pays them to play the venue and is that upfront or whateva? does anyone know?

cool
Prince #MUSICIANICONLEGEND
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Reply #26 posted 12/20/06 12:21pm

rudedog

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metalorange said:[quote]

rudedog said:



I'm sure it must be illegal for you to stand on a street corner and giveaway homemade copies of Lynrd Skynrd CDs for free, I don't see how it would be any different with samples and on the internet. All because Skynrd didn't bother suing doesn't mean it isn't technically illegal. But you never know all the ins-and-outs of the law.



Not the same thing at all.
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Reply #27 posted 12/20/06 2:58pm

theoriginalQue
enB

toejam said:

I'm almost 100% sure that when it comes to a live performance you're allowed to cover whatever song you want without paying royalties. It's only when you then intend to "sell" it (ie. a live album) that you have to pay royalties.

I've mentioned this a few times on similar threads, but no one ever believes me! I'm still sticking by it though as I'm a musician myself and have never had to pay royalities for playing covers... How would Jazz musicians survive if they weren't allowed to play covers? The whole art of jazz improvisation depends on it!!

(edit: sorry kcwm, didn't see your post... yeah... what you said!)
[Edited 12/19/06 6:27am]



lightning rainbo...speak toejam~eye Believe U!!! truly plenty of artists would B glad if a venue would pay when their work was played~but come on ya'll, that goes on everywhere across the country....musicians just playing out would never B able 2 pay the light bill!!!

...aside from LIVE artists' some places do purchase pre-recorded stuff (a 'jukebox' kinda deal) that's already been cleared by ASCAP - BMI...radio stations must pay these fee's to put songs N2 rotation....if an artist is recording intending to 'sell' the product then "YES" U must pay 2 play....if its a demo stipulating "4 promotional purposes only" then U can get away playing a cover & not paying...basically if U R trying 2 get paid then whomsoever OWNS the song is suppose 2 get paid...

queen B
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Reply #28 posted 12/20/06 3:25pm

NDRU

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Not when I play Controversy on Saturday!

unless he reads this, of course--come to the show Prince! you can sue if ya want!
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Reply #29 posted 12/21/06 12:39pm

SlamGlam

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NDRU said:

Not when I play Controversy on Saturday!

unless he reads this, of course--come to the show Prince! you can sue if ya want!


be careful he might! and then you get stuck with the fee, court costs, and legal fees.
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